avant classical music
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81988
Printed Date: December 03 2024 at 13:29
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: avant classical music
Posted By: kingcrimsonfan
Subject: avant classical music
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:13
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I have noticed avant classical artists like john cage and alvin lucier are not included on the site. i think this whole genre should be considered prog because it revolutionized expermentalism and is very complex. if anyone has the same views please discuss. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:16
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We do have some avant classical composers on the site, like Terry Riley, but I think the argument is that it becomes tough to draw the line once you start letting them in. If Cage is okay, why not Schoenberg? If Schoenberg, why not Stravinsky? If Stravinsky, why not Debbusey? and so on. Alvin Lucier is awesome, though. ------------- 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:18
| This site is a database for progressive rock. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:21
True, but we all know that there are tons of artists here who have nothing to do with rock. Most of the prog-electronic category, in fact. -------------
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Padraic wrote:Posted By: kingcrimsonfan
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:21
Prog rock is a whole different genre its not just rock it's a different type of music that allows improv and experimentalism so these artists would be appropriate to put on the site. -------------
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:23
 Also, rage at your spelling of Debussy. ;) No to the cause. ------------- 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:26
No, they wouldn't. You are wrong. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:28
I don't know about "tons". Suffice it to say that the vast majority of the artists here are rock (or at the very least jazz) based. It would not do to open up the floodgates for 20th century composers, Ornette Coleman, or any quirky avant-pop outfit that catches our fancy. |
Posted By: kingcrimsonfan
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:29
Your denying about half of prog rock that are not directly rock including soft machine, John zorn, kraftwerk, univers zero,thinking plague, and several others so prog rock is more than rock -------------
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:37
That doesn't change the fact that prog is primarily based in rock/pop. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 09:40
All the artists* listed either have sufficient rock elements or are directly progressive rock. * I don't know Kraftwerk enough to comment. edit: you honestly think "half" the artists here cannot be considered prog rock? That's just laughable. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 10:25
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 10:41
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 11:52
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^ pretty any jazz musician stuck with jazz-fusion in the late sixties/ seventies...------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 13:03
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This guy is trolling. /thread. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 13:17
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I have moved this to Help us Improve this Site since you are not recommending, making a case for, and providing relevant smaples of, a particular one. There have been some other discussions on this, and I would like to see a section for modern (ones working in the second half of the 20th centurfy) non-rock experimental and infleuntial composers (for instance, musique concrete and jazz ones) that were influential to styles included in PA. For instance, I think that Stockhausen, Xenakis, and Ligetti could find a section, as well as jazzers such as Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, Coltrane, and Mingus. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 13:22
 I completely agree with this. Also, Varese ad Raymond Scott should have a place, since they were electronic pioneers.-------------
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Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 13:24
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There is some on here; John Zorn has done many avant-garde classical music albums. Also, the early Univers Zero albums fall into this category, in my opinion.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 13:54
Doesn't avant preceding classical look like a bit of a non sequiter (or am I being pedantic? )------------- 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 14:18
I think you are being pedantic, "classical" has meant music not made during the "classical period" for quite some time now.
No it's not, both of those things existed long before prog did. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: October 15 2011 at 14:24
He may have the most, but there happens to be hundreds of non-fusion jazz albums on this site due to the fact that almost none of the fusion artists stick with just playing jazz-rock/fusion, but also play other styles of jazz as well. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 11:17
I think the only record I've veer heard of his is Soothing Sounds for Baby. I really like this: Varese is great. Pierre Schaefer is another I'd like to see in -- and related to him, Pierre Henry (though I think he should already be in PA). Morton Subotnick is another that I think is missing from PA (though I could be wrong). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 11:34
Yeah, Schaefer and Henry deserve to be here. I like Subotnick (and even saw him play live once) but I think there are more major electronic musicians should be in first. If you like soothing sounds for baby, you must check out Manhattan Research Inc. I didn't realize until I got it that Scott virtually invented the sequecer and a lot of other technology we still use in some form today. It's an utterly visionary recording and a lot of fun to listen to. -------------
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 11:58
All the main artist in prog-electronic started out as rock artists and Schulze specifically always keeps referring to how significant his roots as a drummer were for his electronic music. Also, if you're looking for classical music that had an influence on Prog then Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev all were significantly more important for Prog rock then the avant guys quoted. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 12:52
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If you are referring to all of the avant garde artists mentioned (edit, re-read, and guess you mean the ones in the first post particularly). I certainly think an article on those earlier composers and their influence would be useful. Here is a Pierre Henry composition from 1967 (later reworked for Futurama): Edit: can't be embedded, but worth listening to: ] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssa6ec7faQ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssa6ec7faQ Not to mention later albums albums such as Pierre Henry and Urban Sax's Paradise Lost which I think totally suitable. And then there are also people such as Egisto Macchi, Ennio Morricone, and Luc Ferrari that I think should be seriously considered. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 13:08
| There's Ubuweb for those composers. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 13:17
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And there are other sites for Prog, so why bother with this one? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 13:58
Actually I referred to those few that I know a bit  , like Ligeti, Varese, Stockhausen, Messiaen (and those jazz guys) |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: October 16 2011 at 15:10
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Make more threads. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 18 2011 at 09:33
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There certainly wouldn't be anything wrong with PA carrying articles outlining the sorts of varied influences and sources cited in this thread re their contribution and impact towards the work of the Progressive Rock artists listed on PA. The only note of caution I would sound however is that it would be utterly preposterous if there was an expectation that such non rock and non prog artists be added to the site e.g. just taking one Prog sub genre at random, there are probably > 500 Symphonic Prog bands on PA. We could between us I'm sure, come up with thousands of classical composers, avant-garde musicians, electronic pioneers, jazz artists etc who have had a demonstrable influence on any number of artists on PA -------------
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 18 2011 at 09:57
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I am opposed to expanding PA's scope even further, but I would be happy if we revived the "Documents" section of the main site and transform it into an independent section where users could publish essays about anything related to Progressive Rock, including avant-classical music, classical, jazz, ethnic music, etc., just like we can now publish reviews. Currently the former "Documents" section is relegated to a bunch of links in the Prog Rock Guides section; it looks like this: More progressive rock related documents index written by PA collaborator
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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: October 19 2011 at 16:40
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That's a great idea Alex; but wouldn't it be better to have a separate subforum for that? On general music discussions or somewhere similar. Unrelated, but not entirely: someone get Arjen outta the frontpage, poor man's been there for eternity. And maybe the frontpage could be a bit more user friendly: the purple/white/orange/grey contrast is annoying, ------------- 
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 19 2011 at 16:55
Raymond Scott should be here based on his 30's stuff. That's when he was really progressive. Big influence on Zorn/Bungle/Fantomas. Check out John Williams father on drums. Insane! |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: October 19 2011 at 17:29
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Without Raymond Scott, would Rush have recorded La Villa Strangiato? ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 19 2011 at 19:33
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Franz Liszt for PA... ------------- 
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