PA's Top Prog albums schewed towards early days?
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Topic: PA's Top Prog albums schewed towards early days?
Posted By: jverweij
Subject: PA's Top Prog albums schewed towards early days?
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 04:44
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Hi there,
I realise this is a fairly bold statement to make in my first post, but I've gone over the PA's top 100 list and I noticed 2 things: (1) the ratio of "forefathers of prog" bands to more recent bands is quite astonishing, and (2) the overall rates for some of these albums are, compared to modernday masterpieces very high.
Now I am in no way saying albums like "Close to the Edge", "Dark Side of the Moon", or "Ommadawn" for example don't deserve their place in this list. They, and many others from the early prog days are fantastic albums. I own about 60% of this list, and love most of these albums.
The first album not out of this era to appear, is Anglagards "Hybris", which is in my opinion a great album, but not that great (this actually warrants a topic of its own, since here i feel that people cling to this as a masterpiece because it was spawned in the near prog-void of that time). The only other album in the top30, not from the early days of prog, is Opeth's "Still Life".
The problem here is, I am 29. Which means I was born in 1982. I wasn't there when these albums came out, and I therefore do not have a good idea of the impact of this music at that time. Yes, I am inherently implying that the ratings (4.64 for Close to the Edge, after well over a thousand votes) are being influenced by a sense of nostalgia and by the significance for the genre.
I just cannot for the like of me conceive that out of all the wonderful progressive music that has been made for the last 40-50 years, only 27 of those have come from the last 30 years!
I'm interested in you thoughts :)
J
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Replies:
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:07
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Well of course they are rated higher because of nostalgia, but why should that mean they don't deserve their place? Definitely, there are excellent albums made in the last 20 years, but they haven't had the time to create a legacy. It's that legacy that gives those albums that extra bit of rating.
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Posted By: jverweij
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:11
| so basically you are implying that in order for us as an audience to judge an album we actually need to wait a few years, to see where it stands? That is actually something I've not considered, and would certainly explain this :) |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:12
Welcome to PA, J. You ask an interesting question. Well, "prog" is a rock subgenre that is defined by how it sounded and what it achieved in the early 70s, when it had its best moment. Since PA was established everyone rated the classics first because they form the hardcore of (almost) anyone's interest in prog. However, as time passed, people started discovering and rating new prog too, which is why modern albums started getting good positions in the general chart. Once in a while someone starts a thread asking what the hell are those recent albums doing in the chart.  Personally I think that we are now actually facing the opposite phenomenon: new bands being hyped too much and not deserving the positions they get in the general chart. I mean, Haken made the 32nd best prog album of all time, better than Mars Volta or PT (from the more representative modern bands)? But as I said that's just me. I would give you the link on the Wayback Machine to see how the chart looked in 2005 or 2006, but unfortunately that website isn't working these days because of maintenance. But you can trust me whn I tell you that was very, very little modern prog compared to what we have these days. |
Posted By: jverweij
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:17
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yeah i was a bit surprised to see Haken in there aswell tbh, mostly because i am still waiting for it to be released..
But what will probably happen is that those ratings will go down and it might even disappear out of the top 100 entirely (their previous album was a killer though, so who knows).
This would confirm the above mentioned hypothesis that albums need time to sink in to see where they stand. Question remains, how much time are we talking about here?
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:18
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Yes. How well a piece of art stands the test of time is often one of the best indications of how well-crafted it really is. Anything can be hugely successful for five minutes, and then disappear when something equal replaces it. The best albums, probably, are those that are remembered fondly in many years to come. Also, it's easier to analyse particular eras and movements retrospectively than it is when they're actually happening. There are a lot of trends and attributes that separate 60s music from 70s music, 70s from 80s, etc....... but at the time, people probably didn't notice as much...... because they weren't able to just look at the important things that happened, they had to live through it all. In 1969 people weren't talking about progressive rock much....... yet now, when they do, they often refer to that year. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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jverweij wrote:Posted By: jverweij
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:22
| very well put :) so maybe in about 10-20 years, we can see a completely different list, and another young person scratching his head as to where his favourite music ranks up ;) |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:29
| I'm not sure about an album with as few as a dozen reviews making the top 100. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:33
In other news, I moved the thread to the "Help Us Improve The Site" section. 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:45
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No disrespect to the OP, but I'm always amused by those who come into our site and immediately want to change it.
The top albums list reflects the views of our members built up over a number of years. It is based on an algorithm which has been discussed in depth on many occasions.
Why is it so wrong to have one site on the Internet which reflects the music many of us have grown to love over many years. the Internet is an enormous place, There are plenty of other sites where classic prog does not get a look in. There are more outlets than ever for people to promote new music. Please at least let this site exist as it is. This is Prog Archives.
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Posted By: jverweij
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:53
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well if you read my post, you would have seen that I was merely curious as to why it is the way it is. Some people gave their insight, which I appreciate, and which gave me an answer to my question.
How you seem to jump from this to me wanting to change progarchives is beyond me. Thank you for immediately labelling me as "one of those guys". I am not questioning the way anything is calculated on PA or any other method for that matter. Please read before you scorn
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 06:17
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I would actually prefer to be able to post reviews without a rating, but that situation isn't going to happen.
I appreciate all the hard work people have put into the algorithm and I understand the use of a weighting system, as recognition for taking the time to write a review, as a reward for collabs' continued contributions, and to minimise the effect of ratings manipulation. However I find it anomalous to have an album in the top 60 that has only four reviews. But that is just my opinion.
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: October 08 2011 at 06:55
No there aren't. I can't even think of one....
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 04:56
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Hi J,
I'm sorry your thread was moved with such zeal but that was probably my fault, although I'm not sure it deserved to be buried in the ''Help us improve the site'' section just because I am a stupid tit.
As well as inadvertently derailing your thread, I also feel I owe you and Easy Livin an apology for your apparent difference of opinions. I think his comments could actually have been directed at me since I, not you, alluded to the algorithm. My fault, sorry about that to both of you.
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Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 08:49
Welcome to the Archives. Nothing like jumping in with both feet on your first post As I'm sure you read on the http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?salbumtypes=1#list" rel="nofollow - top albums list the rankings are based on ratings by site members and are calculated using a weighted mean algorithm that gives precedence to ratings by site collaborators and reviewers. This means the ratings (and therefore rankings) are completely subjective, as of course are all music ratings. As Easy Living pointed out there was a fairly substantial amount of work done in the early years of the site where members logged thousands of album reviews to build up content. Since many of those old-timers became collaborators, their reviews skew the ratings. And the site originally had a fairly parochial scope (mostly symphonic rock, art rock, RIO, avant-garde), all genres whose heyday pretty much came and went in the late sixties and early seventies. Hence the prevalence of older albums on the Top-100 list. Also, the nature of the formula tends to blunt the effect of a single (or small number of) poor reviews for an album with a large number of reviews, which explains how an album like 'Close to the Edge' holds the #1 spot despite nearly 1/10th of all reviewers giving it three or fewer stars. And since a larger number of reviews tends to favor a decent album it should make sense that records that have been around longer will fare better. But nostalgia and hype can play a role as well. Wishbone Ash for example was finally admitted in 2006 following extensive debate and a few member departures. Almost immediately there was a rush to post reviews and ratings for 'Argus' and at one time the album was actually in the Top-10. There were quite a few folks who took offense to a 'prog-related' album being on the list and later ratings/reviews basically caused a self-correction, You also mentioned 'Hybris' and this one is a great example of a band and album that was all the rage on the site a few years ago which resulted in a glut of (probably inflated) ratings. 80% of the entries for that album are ratings only with no accompanying review. That list has caused no end of debate and opinion on this site. I'm one of those that would prefer we not have it at all since it's really little more than a scorecard for the perpetual popularity contest going on at the site. But I suppose it at least gives neophytes somewhere to start so at least it serves a purpose. Again, welcome to the site. There is a lot here and hopefully you'll take the time to discover all of it.  ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 09:12
Punk sites for example? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 09:19
The first thing I'd do away with is the ratings. If there was ever something worth taking with a grain of salt...The old stuff will reign supreme because of its age and will still leave newbies scratching their heads at times. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 10:50
Chris, sorry you felt targeted in some way or another but it wasn't the case. The thread got moved because it was not a discussion on prog music but on PA as a site. 
Here it will be getting more exposure instead of being flooded under
the many new threads opened on a regular basis in the Prog Music Lounge;
that's the benefit of having dedicated subsections for specific issues.
As for Bob's comment on the algorithm, that wasn't a reply to your comment but to the general idea of the OP, about the general chart being schewed towards the classics. As for your comment, I think Bob would also agree that a dozen reviews aren't enough for a top 100 position. I certainly do. But as other cases in the last two years since the latest algorithm change have proved, once the hype reviews pass and critical reviews appear, the album will go down quite quickly. It's not perfect but it's not a disaster either. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 10:56
Whoah, I don't know what happened but there's no Haken album in the top 100 anymore. I guess it goes to show the corrective prowess of the algorithm. One negative review and all that unanimity in hype was balanced. |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 12:03
It was a similar case when Snowtorch shot up to like #20 or something when it came out because of immediate fanboyship, same with Passion (I think that was #30), but it always seems to weed itself out as more and more people rate the album. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 14:46
Yep. To be fair to the great man himself, Phideaux did comment at the time on the site that, no matter how (rightly IMO) proud he was of the album, it most certainly did not belong at those exalted heights, and it did correct itself fairly quickly. I think both Snowtorch & Passion are great albums. But top 30? No, and the algorithm is working well here. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: October 09 2011 at 15:07
My point exactly. I think Snowtorch is easily one of the best of the year, but it's certainly not ItCotCK's rival in terms of masterpiece-hood. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: October 10 2011 at 05:19
@Alex - many thanks for your reassurance, much appreciated. 
As far as prog not getting a look in elsewhere... got me to to thinking about other lists from back in the day. Some of the other chaps will no doubt remember the NME Writers' top 100 lists. The 1974 list came as a centre spread with small pictures of all the album covers, except it was really the Writers' top 99 as they got readers to write in with nominations for the 100th spot. The Moody Blues didn't get a look in, for example... not even for the 100th position as their readers' votes were spread across their core 7 albums. Quicksilver Messenger Service Happy Trails came close, and I pretty soon bought that album as a result of seeing it nominated. Tubular Bells actually got the readers' vote for #100.
The point for the debate here is that there is very little of what I would call classsic prog on the list. Sure, a lot of the albums are listed here in PA (Zappa, Who, Beatles, Doors etc etc) but apart from Pink Floyd's Piper #21 and DSotM #92, Crimson ItCotCK #37, Tull Stand Up #50, The Yes Album #73... not so much ''classic'' prog. I stopped reading the NME around 1982 (major crossroads in my life, my family and career took priority, no money for albums, no time for gigs and all that malarky) so I don't remember the NME lists from the years 1985 and 1993, but thanks to the internet I can now compare them all.
Interesting to see from the 3 different lists - Forever Changes by Love goes from #52 (1974) to #14 (1985) and stays in the top 20 in 1993. Trout Mask Replica is #43 (1974) and #42 (1985), but is nowhere to be seen in 1993 (although Clear Spot is there instead.) I wonder how the PA top 100 would look if members got to vote rather than rate albums but then again that would be a whole mess of work and not really practical... just thinking aloud. The obvious things about those NME lists is that there is little prog and they are very narrow with the focus strictly on UK and US artists. Anyway, in the off chance that other members might be interested here are links to those lists, you might just find something you like:
http://www.timepieces.nl/Top100s/1974NMEwriters.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.timepieces.nl/Top100's/1974NMEwriters.html
http://www.timepieces.nl/Top100s/1985NMEwriters.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.timepieces.nl/Top100's/1985NMEwriters.html
http://www.timepieces.nl/Top100s/1993NMEwriters.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.timepieces.nl/Top100's/1993NMEwriters.html
EDIT: sorry, I seem to be having trouble adding links. A similar thing happened last night when I tried posting vids in the Italian den. Any suggestions? Thanks.
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Posted By: zwordser
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 11:44
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I've watched the list for a couple years now, and find it interesting how it continually evolves. The bottom 50 (of the top 100) seems to be constantly changing. The top 50 is a little more stable, though maybe one or two albums break into it every week. I agree that an album has to "stand the test of time" to be considered, or rated among the very top of the thousands of albums that are out there. I'd guess that in a few more years, you may start to see more albums from the 80's, 90's or 2000's break into the top 20 and stick there (assuming that the list is still there in a few years). I also agree that, even if it may be "flawed" (as many posts seemed to suggest) the list is a VERY useful tool for a guide to collecting/sampling music. I generally accept the idea that the best rated albums are the ones I want to look into for sampling and/or collecting first; I start with what's on the list, then if I really like a band, I may collect more of their albums that aren't on the list. Lately I've been looking more closely at the top 200. Seems to me that anything you find in the 100-200 range is going to be some of the best prog out there, and it's also where you'll find much of the best newer music. ------------- Z |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 12:24
Except both the albums mentioned aren't masterpieces. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 12:48
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What does "schewed" mean? Is it a Jewish phrase? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: November 04 2011 at 12:50
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Schewed Schmewed. Now there's a Jewish phrase for you. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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