about the Live8 Tickets for sale on this site...

follow this link:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8115&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8115&a mp;PN=1

and,please no sarcasm.

^

BTW: I voted no...

Snow Dog wrote: I have Pmd u Tone, but why has your thread from yesterday been deleted?

That's a good question: I was trying to find it this morning. When I saw it was no longer here I was happy thinking that the threads on tickets trade had also dissapeared... but very soon I found some of them

Eighth NO vote is mine BTW... OMG, I promise it has nothing to do with Octavarium!!!

nice, we have the poll and the discusion about the poll seperate

oops sorry, did it again.

I don't mind the ticket's being sold, once you have such a ticket it's yours to use, or give away, or sell for that matter.

A lot of people would like to go, but have no ticket's, some people who have such ticket's may not want to go, or don't have the time, or only see the potential money that can be made through selling, maybe even they desperatly need that money for grossery shopping.

I'm not the person to judge other's people's objectives and reasons.

But, if a person for one reason or another has a ticket, but decides not to go himself, should he just throw the ticket's away, give them for free to someone else, or sell them, so the ones who want to go the most desperate, and can afford it will pay the prise they are willing to pay for such an event. no problem with selling those ticket's from me.

The world isn't fair, I don't have a ticket, and I would love to go, but it's not going to happen

However,

Is this site developed for use as a market place, where people at will can go and promote their merchandise? Maybe not, but it is one of the possibilities a forum offeres, to bring people together in the same way a marketplace does.

If I wanted to sell my prog-collection (which I don't), would it be ok, if I started a thread announcing I wanted to sell it, would there be people who'll be offended, or would there be people who consider it a chance to get a good collection for a reasonable price?

Some people on this forum might just appreciate such a chance to see PF perform together again, of course it feels unjust that a lot of money will change hands over the back of an  in nature charity concert.

Spamming is not permitted, but I don't know if it is spamming, apparently some (if not many/all) find it imorral, but if the offered article/ticket can be considered something the auther can expect the audience are genuinly interested in, and don't make more than one post concerning his selling attempt, I don't see the real problem (besides a possible moral one).

Maybe we should have a specified forum/thread where, all posts that have the intend of selling something will be posted. apply a simple rule, every selling attempt outside the specified thread will get deleted immediatly, and maybe even one should be a forum member for at least a certain time, this way we can both avoid one-time spammers, simple legitimate reason for the moderators to delete questionable posts, and the forum members who are not interested in such things can simply block the thread, or ignore it.

this all isn't completely my opinion, in fact I agree with Tony_R on most, but there's always a but, and I wanted to state this.

sorry for the long read, I don't expect many people to agree with me, but this is an opinion.

(BTW voted NO, for other reasons than those stated here) 

gdub411 wrote: I am a trend bucker and voted YES!

Hey,I'm serious about this!

I've Pm'd Maani-if he doesnt remove the posts by midnight I'm outta here for good!

And I mean it.

gdub411 wrote: I am a trend bucker and voted YES!

Thanks for your help,friend.......

gdub411 wrote: Okay Tony, I believe you and would be saddened to see you go but why? What's the big deal?

The big deal is this:

the sale of these tickets is obviously wrong.

My position:

Having been on this site for nearly 12 months I have been involved in all sorts of battles,rows,arguments,debates and discussions. I have been consistent on the stance I have taken on the " I'm alright-nothing else matters" people out there.The same ones who will bleat like stuck pigs over a perceived slight.Threats to "report" me for a joke taken the wrong way. Pages and pages of "concern" because their band has been mocked, their feelings hurt.People posting polls to have me ejected,hints from moderators that my position on this forum has been "discussed",apologies from me when I have stepped out of line,mocked for trying to show people that there are more important issues than how much tax we pay or who is getting what and why.Yeah, it's all just a game to many and maybe it should be,but once you've drawn a line in the sand you dont just cross it to avoid being seen as over-reacting or over-dramatic.This is called integrity, a word that I feel is important in my life.

How many people have threatened to leave this site because of arguments over prog bands? Is this more important than allowing parasites to profit from that which has been given for free? The whole point of LIVE8 is the issue of Third World Debt,and after months and months of banter on this site over Capitalism,Bush and Right Wing Politics,the chickens have now come home to roost.

I for one am happy to make this stand against the parasitic vermin who infest every moment of modern life.The fast buck,f**k you merchants.Well I'm sick of it and if this is the only gesture I can make then so be it.

For the love of all that is right remove those posts!!!!!

Please.

Ohh and if any of you still have any doubts,please read these:

stboy24 Newbie Joined: 2005 June 20 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5	Posted: 2005 June 28 at 11:20pm | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=619357&TPN=2"> Charity begins at home. Bono and Geldof are ego maniacs like Princess Dianna.
Back to Top	javascript openWin'pop_up_profile.asp?PF=2987&FID=41','profile','toolbar=0,location=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollbars=1,resizable=1,width=590,height=425'"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/search_form.asp?KW=stboy24&SI=AR&FM=41&FID=41&TID=7533&PN=1&TPN=2"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_new_message_form.asp?name=stboy24"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_buddy_list.asp?name=stboy24">
stboy24 Newbie Joined: 2005 June 20 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5	Posted: 2005 June 28 at 11:24pm | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=619360&TPN=2"> 100 % donated to the "Stboy24 needs a holiday charity". or to "stboy24 sexual relief " or to "GMAFB"  (give me a few beers)
Back to Top	javascript openWin'pop_up_profile.asp?PF=2987&FID=41','profile','toolbar=0,location=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollbars=1,resizable=1,width=590,height=425'"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/search_form.asp?KW=stboy24&SI=AR&FM=41&FID=41&TID=7533&PN=1&TPN=2"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_new_message_form.asp?name=stboy24"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_buddy_list.asp?name=stboy24">
stboy24 Newbie Joined: 2005 June 20 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5	Posted: 2005 June 28 at 11:26pm | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=619362&TPN=2"> Get your Live8 tickets here x 2 mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]   Give an African something to aspire to.

Doesn't it make you glad to be a member of the human race....not!!!

Oh and I've just been PM'd by someone asking me if I am making this stand because I am jealous !!!!!!!

I can't help but agree with what you say Tony. It is reprehensible for people to make material gain  from something aimed squarely at making the lives of thousands of unfortunate people a lot better.

I have always hated scalping anyway (I am glad Nearfest will officaly only allow people to resell their tickets for what they paid).  But to scalp free tickets to a charity event of all things just hits me as being very wrong.  It makes no difference if you believe in the cause of what they are supporting or not it is just wrong. 

Good for you Tony. 

(I would do it to but no one would notice I was gone. )

tuxon wrote: nice, we have the poll and the discusion about the poll seperate oops sorry, did it again. I don't mind the ticket's being sold, once you have such a ticket it's yours to use, or give away, or sell for that matter. A lot of people would like to go, but have no ticket's, some people who have such ticket's may not want to go, or don't have the time, or only see the potential money that can be made through selling, maybe even they desperatly need that money for grossery shopping. I'm not the person to judge other's people's objectives and reasons. But, if a person for one reason or another has a ticket, but decides not to go himself, should he just throw the ticket's away, give them for free to someone else, or sell them, so the ones who want to go the most desperate, and can afford it will pay the prise they are willing to pay for such an event. no problem with selling those ticket's from me. The world isn't fair, I don't have a ticket, and I would love to go, but it's not going to happen However, Is this site developed for use as a market place, where people at will can go and promote their merchandise? Maybe not, but it is one of the possibilities a forum offeres, to bring people together in the same way a marketplace does. If I wanted to sell my prog-collection (which I don't), would it be ok, if I started a thread announcing I wanted to sell it, would there be people who'll be offended, or would there be people who consider it a chance to get a good collection for a reasonable price? Some people on this forum might just appreciate such a chance to see PF perform together again, of course it feels unjust that a lot of money will change hands over the back of an  in nature charity concert.     Spamming is not permitted, but I don't know if it is spamming, apparently some (if not many/all) find it imorral, but if the offered article/ticket can be considered something the auther can expect the audience are genuinly interested in, and don't make more than one post concerning his selling attempt, I don't see the real problem (besides a possible moral one). Maybe we should have a specified forum/thread where, all posts that have the intend of selling something will be posted. apply a simple rule, every selling attempt outside the specified thread will get deleted immediatly, and maybe even one should be a forum member for at least a certain time, this way we can both avoid one-time spammers, simple legitimate reason for the moderators to delete questionable posts, and the forum members who are not interested in such things can simply block the thread, or ignore it.   this all isn't completely my opinion, in fact I agree with Tony_R on most, but there's always a but, and I wanted to state this. sorry for the long read, I don't expect many people to agree with me, but this is an opinion. (BTW voted NO, for other reasons than those stated here)

You make a very convincing case Tux, and I have to say that I agree with just about everything you said. Tony obviously has very strong feelings on the issue and he's to be admired for his stance!
 Nevertheless, I have voted no because it does make me feel uneasy, I hate to see the forum abused by these quick buck bozo's and I don't want Tony to leave!

All:

Let me offer my perspective on this, since some of you seem to be presuming what it is.

Although it may seem obnoxious, mercenary, even repugnant to sell a ticket that was gotten free, that is nobody's business but the person selling it and the person buying it.  If the person buying it is either hard-up enough or simply eager enough to attend, and is willing to pay for the ticket, that is their business and nobody else's.  Call him a sucker, stupid, traitor, whatever you want; it is still that person's choice.

As I noted to Tony in my response to his PM, I spent 10 years as a creator, coordinator and PR person for fundraising events, many of them large-scale, high-profile, celebrity-driven events, including concerts, fashion shows, etc.  In many cases, a block of tickets was set aside to hand out free to various people.  When we sent out free tickets, we certainly expected that those people would attend.  However, if I sent a free ticket to someone, and they decided not to go, and turned around and sold the ticket to someone else, why should it have bothered me?  After all, that ticket was already accounted for within the scope and budget of the fundraiser.  In other words, it had no effect on the money raised by the event; it was simply a private transaction between two people - most often neither of whom I knew.  So why get one's knickers in a twist about it?

Believe me, Bob Geldof, or the charity for whom he is doing this, is not losing one penny if someone on Prog Archives sells a free ticket to someone else.  That idea is just totally false, and I know this from a decade of experience.

As importantly - if not more importantly - I'd like to know why anyone considers this any less a "free speech" issue than, say, a controversial thread on what drugs are good to take while listening to prog.  Since the views of the members do not represent the views of the webmasters or administrators - and this is a tacit "given" on any site - and since the admin group has determined that the site is not being put in any legal jeopardy as a result of the drug discussion, should I also delete that thread?  What, exactly, is the difference here?

As long as something is not a "danger" to the site, "free speech" must trump all other considerations.

Finally, although the site is not, and should not become, a "marketplace," it has always permitted the sale or trade of CDs, vinyl, etc. between members - and there has always been a dedicated category for such transactions.  I believe that prog or prog-related concert tickets would fall under the umbrella of "music and musicians exchange," just as CDs, vinyl, equipment, etc. do.  So there is no need to fear that Prog Archives will somehow become an open marketplace for people to simply sell anything and everything.

I am truly sorry that Tony feels so strongly about this that he is willing to leave the site over it.  However, there are two considerations here.  First, I simply do not see why this issue is of such a nature as to warrant a person's departure.  Second - and I say this with no imperiousness or defense, but simply as information - it is the policy of this site that we will not be "bullied" into taking an action simply as the result of the threats of any member or members.

Continued discussion is encouraged.  However, it is highly unlikely that anyone will come up with a position that will unquestionably support the deletion of the "offending" threads.

Peace.

Velvetclown wrote:

Amen to that!! 

I'll keep my opinions on this topic to myself.

Tony:

Here's another thought.

You state, "The whole point of LIVE8 is the issue of Third World Debt, and after months and months of banter on this site over Capitalism, Bush and Right Wing Politics, the chickens have now come home to roost."

Are you suggesting that every single one of the the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people who are going to attend the concerts care about Third World debt?  Are you suggesting that many, if not most, of those people are not simply attending to be able to see Pink Floyd re-unite, or to see some other band they love, and "Third World debt be damned?"

If you are suggesting such, you are either painfully naive or willfully ignorant.  (Though I continue to love you anyway...)  Indeed, how do you know that the person who pays for the free ticket does'nt care more about Third World debt than the one who got a free ticket to begin with, and thus has more reason to attend than the person who sold the ticket?

Peace.

maani wrote: Tony: Here's another thought. You state, "The whole point of LIVE8 is the issue of Third World Debt, and after months and months of banter on this site over Capitalism, Bush and Right Wing Politics, the chickens have now come home to roost." Are you suggesting that every single one of the the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people who are going to attend the concerts care about Third World debt?  Are you suggesting that many, if not most, of those people are not simply attending to be able to see Pink Floyd re-unite, or to see some other band they love, and "Third World debt be damned?" If you are suggesting such, you are either painfully naive or willfully ignorant.  (Though I continue to love you anyway...)  Indeed, how do you know that the person who pays for the free ticket does'nt care more about Third World debt than the one who got a free ticket to begin with, and thus has more reason to attend than the person who sold the ticket? Peace.

Maani if I may?

Outside of the concert issue do you want to turn this place into a scalpers ring?  The person(s) who posted are not regular posters and I think comes under spam as well as any moral issue.  You don't have to limit the decsion to just this concert.  I hate scalpers and just because it goes on does not mean it needs to go on here.  Why would you want to allow that? Is that the kind of image you want to represent?

As for bullying the admins  I can't even get an answer to a question I have posted in 6-7 forums, PM's or Emails.  I don't think they even care what I think.

Maani and Tony R,

This Scalping of tickets (especially the free ones)is another sticky subject (as is the bootlegs or pirates records or second-hand vinyl vendors). I fully agree with Tony R about scalping being scandalous. Maani , your stance on the fans being stupid, sucker and traitor is simply shocking: if people are willing to pay fortunes for a ticket , it is most likely because the fans had no choice or stood even a small chance at buying the ticket at normal prices because the way the sales happens and the vultures who profit from are simply scandalous. Like most US citizens you are probably a warm supporter of free enterprise, but this scalping thing is close to organized crime and is certainly mafia-related in some events . It is also cheating and anything but free enterprise because he curbs the rule of offer and demand by speculation, by sitting on pile of ticket and letting the demand go up because of lack of offer!!! Sickening!!!!! I have no proof of this but I believe the biggest scalpers have very close connections - or are even insiders - with quasi world-monopolistic Clearchannel.

Bono may claim justice as much as he wants (his concert tickets were at 60,00 Euros - some $90.00 which in itself is already scandalous), but when U2 came to Brussels early this month , most real fans had to dish out a fortune or stay outside the stadium, because all 60 000 tickets were gone in two hours (can you imagine selling 30 000 tickets in one hour..... even with modern technology?!?!?!) and some tickets where being auctionned at seven times the price some two hours later. But Bono would not consider having concerts without Clearchannel.... Talk about respecting the fans....

BTW, I have never dished out any dough for a scalped ticket except at the face value of the ticket. I have even waited some two or three songs to buy ticket at halfprice, and have the scalper almost spit at me in disgust . But I told him not to even think of it because not only would I break his head , but with the amount of money he made from other suckers, would have him in plain trouble with the police.

I hate Scalpers worse than Formula 1 racing as the sorriest excuse to make a buck!

Tony R,

I inderstand your plea/grief but your leaving the site would be a big blow to the forum (mostly your contributions are on the forum). Please stay on , your older problems were long-past history even when you were Reed Lover, you were never a problem IMHO.

However Bono , Geldof and Lady DI are fakes! stboy24 , have got that one correct, but this does not stop him from being an a**hole!!!! They use the medias to their own avails (who isn't?) but the way to do it is also another matter how those three examples and their reputations should really be re-considered.

TUXON Wrote:

But, if a person for one reason or another has a ticket, but decides not to go himself, should he just throw the ticket's away, give them for free to someone else, or sell them, so the ones who want to go the most desperate, and can afford it will pay the prise they are willing to pay for such an event. no problem with selling those ticket's from me.

If he got them for free , that would be the only sensible thing to do!

At worst , the only other sensible position would be to sell it at face value. But certainly not act like a mafiosi!

I already new that the sale of these tickets would not affect the event one iota. But these tickets have been given out through competitions on Tv etc, which means that people have entered these competitions knowing that they were to sell them on already! Its not a case of mm Ive got a ticket given to me but I don't want it!

It still leaves me with this point. Do we want people becoming members solely to sell tickets in a one off deal?

I will get back to everyone's comments later, since I am in a hurry right now.  However, I do want to know what Garion's non-answered question was; I will try to answer when I get back this afternoon.

Peace.

I don't care

Who wants to see Pink Floyd anyway...

Sean makes a good point about these "so-called" members.

These are not people who contribute to the site,merely chancers joining up to sell their tickets.

I am still here as I feel there might be a change of heart.

MAANI: your comment re the motives of those attending the events is irrelevant And to suggest I am naive or wilfully ignorant is very hurtful.

Are you suggesting that every single one of the the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people who are going to attend the concerts care about Third World debt?  Are you suggesting that many, if not most, of those people are not simply attending to be able to see Pink Floyd re-unite, or to see some other band they love, and "Third World debt be damned?"

This question gives me the impression that you think I am stupid.What you have written is so obvious that it needs not be said.If there was a prize this week for "stating the bleedin' obvious" you would win it by a mile.When one raffles prizes for charity one doesnt ask whether the purchaser of the tickets is doing it to win a prize or to donate to charity.It is the money that is important.Would you suggest that the bands play to an empty stadium?

C'mon Maani I deserve better than be patronised like this!

You either do this or you dont but dont talk down to me.This is not some philosophical debate,this is real, the here and now (at least to me).

And I seem to have a fair bit of support although maybe not a conscensus.

I don't disagree with the sale of these tickets in general - in essence I concur with maani's points - if I were to vote in the poll specifically it would be a yes, but I'm not going to for two reasons:

Firstly, there are those who feel strongly that it's immoral - I don't feel as strongly that it should be allowed as they feel that it should be disallowed. No one is actually losing out, apart from the people silly enough to pay thousands for a ticket (if Pink Floyd hadn't reformed, would this fetch such a very high price? After all as far as I know all the other bands can be seen at a later date at a regular price).

Secondly, I abhor any sort of spam and particularly the attitude of the particular seller as quoted by Tony.

edit: Re the raffle point, I don't agree at all - plenty of raffles have naff prizes that nobody wants and still people buy tickets for them.

goose wrote: edit: Re the raffle point, I don't agree at all - plenty of raffles have naff prizes that nobody wants and still people buy tickets for them.

When one raffles prizes for charity one doesnt ask whether the purchaser of the tickets is doing it to win a prize or to donate to charity.It is the money that is important.

Thanks for your words Goose,just to rectify one misunderstanding...the above is what I actually stated about raffle prizes,your"raffle point" seems to be talking about some other statement.

Snow Dog wrote: I already new that the sale of these tickets would not affect the event one iota. But these tickets have been given out through competitions on Tv etc, which means that people have entered these competitions knowing that they were to sell them on already! Its not a case of mm Ive got a ticket given to me but I don't want it!   It still leaves me with this point. Do we want people becoming members solely to sell tickets in a one off deal?

And these people who queue up for free tickets, knowing that they have no intention of attending the gig need a good hiding. Just think of all the people at th ends of these queues who can't go, because the tickets run out! And then they see them being sold for £300 pound each. £300!!!!! A bit much isn't it?

Tony R wrote: goose wrote: edit: Re the raffle point, I don't agree at all - plenty of raffles have naff prizes that nobody wants and still people buy tickets for them. When one raffles prizes for charity one doesnt ask whether the purchaser of the tickets is doing it to win a prize or to donate to charity.It is the money that is important. Thanks for your words Goose,just to rectify one misunderstanding...the above is what I actually stated about raffle prizes,your"raffle point" seems to be talking about some other statement.

OK, I read it wrongly, I see what you mean now.

More Votes still needed.

I see James Lee is in da house,c'mon James-VOTE,VOTE,VOTE!

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8115&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8115&a mp;PN=1

As reprehensible as this is, I vote yes. I don't think we should prevent people from exchanging commercial goods just as I don't think we should stymie their right to voice their opinions.

I think the people who are willing to pay for those tickets are more concerned with the status of "having attended" or "can afford to pay" rather than the significance of what Bob Geldof is trying to achieve. He said as much days ago when he cited that the objective's event was not to raise funds but to drive people's political consciousness toward's the third world's debt.  

I think we should direct our energies towards that goal and not fret over whether a few bad apples are going to profit from ticket scalping. Don't get me wrong Tony, I admire your passion and am not downplaying your concern. It's just I think we can achieve more by focusing on getting the word out on the plight of Africa rather than bickering among ourselves.

gleam wrote: As reprehensible as this is, I vote yes. I don't think we should prevent people from exchanging commercial goods just as I don't think we should stymie their right to voice their opinions. I think the people who are willing to pay for those tickets are more concerned with the status of "having attended" or "can afford to pay" rather than the significance of what Bob Geldof is trying to achieve. He said as much days ago when he cited that the objective's event was not to raise funds but to drive people's political consciousness toward's the third world's debt.   I think we should direct our energies towards that goal and not fret over whether a few bad apples are going to profit from ticket scalping. Don't get me wrong Tony, I admire your passion and am not downplaying your concern. It's just I think we can achieve more by focusing on getting the word out on the plight of Africa rather than bickering among ourselves.

But we are not bickering amongst ourselves!

Gleam the people selling tickets on this forum are only members in so much as they had to become members of this forum in order to sell their tickets.They are not "real" members so why should we afford these scum any "freedoms"?

I already direct my energies towards the goal of clearing "Third World" debt! This is just a small piece of "available action" in the whole scheme of things.We can stop this on our site-so why not??????

Obviously I didn't read through the entire thread and was unaware we had interlopers. That's heaping injury on top of insult. Having said that I suggest "two by fours" at dawn for them, kick them out.

Gleam the people selling tickets on this forum are only members in so much as they had to become members of this forum in order to sell their tickets.They are not "real" members so why should we afford these scum any "freedoms"?

I already direct my energies towards the goal of clearing "Third World" debt! This is just a small piece of "available action" in the whole scheme of things.We can stop this on our site-so why not??????

As Mr waters put it on his paen to the original LIVE AID:

The Tide Is Turning !

There is an old adage about why true socialism can never work. 

If every adult in the world was allocated £1 at midday, before 12.10pm, there would be some people with £2 and others with none.  Driven by greed, those who have £2 have misused their natural talents to con the £1 from other, more vulnerable members of society, with no concern for their future welfare.

Its this same base instinct which motivates these individuals to earn a £1 at the expense of their vulnerable African brothers, even at a time when the leaders call out for all members of society to demonstrate the highest of moral values. 

Tony R is right to feel the way he does.  We cannot condone this selfishness.

Thanks guys!

Just waiting for Maani to return but I think there cant be any justifcation for not deleting these posts and future posts of the same ilk.

Over to you Maani.

Answer these questions with clear, cogent and logical answers.....

All:

Let me make a couple of observations.

First, as to the fact that these members joined for the sole purpose of selling the tickets.  We also had quite a few members join for the sole purpose of giving Octavarium a 5-star review.  And few if any of them have contributed since - and I would bet dollars to donuts that none of them will post another review until the next DT album comes out.

Should we then also delete all their reviews, as well as ejecting them, since they are "using" the site?

Second, the ticket issue has now come down to what seems to be a single word: morality - the morality or immorality of "making money" on the back of a fundraiser.  Setting aside the fact that I explained, from a decade of experience in fundraising, that these tickets have zero effect on the bottom line of the fundraiser, the question begs to be asked: since when is "morality" - or perhaps more accurately, "immorality" - something that warrants deletion here?  Should we go back and delete every "immoral" post in every controversial thread?  Or even delete the threads themselves?  Is this what you would have the admin group do?  Indeed, who, pray tell, is the one who is determining what is "moral" in this regard and what is not?  After all, if we ejected every member who engaged in immoral posting, I can think of at least half a dozen - including many "veterans" - who would be gone.

From my perspective, this sends us down the very road of censorship and proto-totalitarian behavior that all of us - members and admin alike - have diligently sought to avoid.  As I pointed out to Tony in a PM, even hate speech is protected by the First Amendment as long as it does not cross the line into an incitement to cause physical harm.  Are you all suggesting that the "immoral" nature of the ticket threads is more offensive - more justifying of deletion - than posts or threads that display immoral points of view, or "toe the line" of hate speech?

I think all (or most) of you are getting so carried away by your "passions" that you have given far less thought to all of this than you probably should.

As an aside, I have noted, ad nauseam, that if a particular thread offends you, then simply ignore it and it will "fall way" to the nether regions of the site.  The same holds true here.  If the ticket threads offend you, ignore them.  Because, as stated, the only person(s) being "hurt" - assuming there is any "hurt" involved at all - is/are the buyer(s).  Indeed, also as stated, if the buyer(s) truly want(s) to go, and is/are willing to pay for a ticket that s/he knows was free, how can any of you justify having anything to say about that?  Have you considered how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot?  Would you want others telling you what you should or shouldn't do with your money, or calling you names for engaging in this type of transaction?  And don't tell me for one second that "I would never do that"; if you have ever bought a ticket from a scalper (and I would put my life on the line that many if not most of you have), then you have also engaged in an "immoral" practice which is only one very small step above what you are roaring about.

Yes, call the seller a "parasite," and the buyer "stupid" if you feel that way.  However, the sale itself, as "immoral" and objectionable as you may find it (and clearly not everyone does, or at least does not believe it rises to the level of "ejection"), does not rise near to the level at which it trumps free speech.

As noted, the site will not become an agora, or even a place where such transactions are "encouraged."  However, as stated, there has always been a place on the site for transactions between members, even if concert tickets did not appear until now.  However, within the scope of member transactions, concert tickets, while not originally contemplated, are acceptable.  That many of you consider this particular transaction "immoral" notwithstanding, the threads will remain, and will be deleted the day of the concerts.

Peace.

Amazingly Maani still doesnt feel he can act.If anyone is getting carried away it is Maani!

He is frightened of setting a precedent - I say he is being pedantic.

He talks about freedom of speech but I say make an exception-after all you have deleted posts that use "profanity" Change the rules to read......"and anything else that the admin group deem inappropriate."

A benign dictatorship-how often have we heard this bandied around by Maani?

Does it occur to him that having had every normal avenue closed to them these people are now using this site as a last resort.They are not interested in prog Music and to all intents and purposes have not expressed an interst in any type of music........

Do it.Make it happen.Nobody's freedoms are at stake here!

Maani said

I think all (or most) of you are getting so carried away by your "passions" that you have given far less thought to all of this than you probably should.

Well passion certainly hasn't got the better of me. I don't feel passionate about this in the way others possibly do, but I think there is a case for bending the rules!

These people care nothing for this site, or the concert. This forum is just a tool for their marketing. Is that what you want for this Forum Maani?
   Let these people try to offload their tickets elsewhere!

maani wrote: Yes, call the seller a "parasite," and the buyer "stupid" if you feel that way. Peace.

If we are playing at being pedantic:

in the above statement you are asking members to break the forum rules,to wit:

3.  No Personal Attacks.  Disagreement, debate, even "heated" discussion is fine (though, as stated, emoticons should be used to "soften" the effect of words).  However, personally directed insults, denigration, etc. will not be tolerated, and will be grounds for warning and, if not stopped immediately, ejection.  Although "group-directed" insults and denigration (e.g., racism, sexism, ageism, etc.) would also fall under this category, any such behavior will be taken on a case by case basis.  Note also that any member who engages in continuous baiting, borderline insults, or other continuously "aggressive" behavior will be warned.

So-have you really "thought that reply out" Maani?

We either have principles or we dont.

We either have rules or we dont!

Just do it!

Tony:

You said, "He talks about freedom of speech but I say make an exception-after all you have deleted posts that use "profanity" Change the rules to read......"and anything else that the admin group deem inappropriate.""

Have you ever read Orwell's Animal Farm?  Because your statement is practically a direct quote from the book.  I simply cannot believe that this is the road you want to go down...  I never expected Orwellian thinking from you.

Peace.

maani wrote: Tony: You said, "He talks about freedom of speech but I say make an exception-after all you have deleted posts that use "profanity" Change the rules to read......"and anything else that the admin group deem inappropriate."" Have you ever read Orwell's Animal Farm?  Because your statement is practically a direct quote from the book.  I simply cannot believe that this is the road you want to go down...  I never expected Orwellian thinking from you. Peace.

Maani-I truly believe you are now being ridiculous.This is a music forum for christ's sake!

As for Animal Farm, I read it when I was 10.I HAVE A DEGREE IN LITERATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Explain to me who's rights are being infringed?These people are not here,not interested in this debate and of course,could have already sold their wares and be enjoying the bounty.

Tell me how this is a freedom of speech issue? You havent convinced us so far!

I refuse to get into a philosophical debate about the nature and definition of "freedom of speech" .Far from me over-reacting you are using this case and this site as some kind of model for your own philosophical beliefs. I now believe that you are refusing to back down in order to save face or you have completely lost your marbles and sense of perspective.I dare say that the money-lenders had tacit approval to ply their trade in the Temple and were,as such,expressing a freedom that was obviously wrong and alien to the context of their surroundings.Jesus,your mentor,threw them out.I dont recall that he was barred from every temple in The Holy Land in case he he repeated this action and there is no record of his making a habit of this "removal of other people's freedoms"

As Moderator you have no right to be so dogmatic.I genuinely feel you are behaving pompously-behaving like some despotic dictator who makes strange decisions because he "knows best."

Your reply leaves doubt as to whether a final decision has been made,in fact it demands an answer from me which, of course,draws this out further.We need a final statement.

Declare these posts "spam" and have done with it! If not:

Move over Maani!!

Tell me-what does MAX think?

Let him speak!

Lets all of us declare these posts "Spam" and hhave some democracy in action here!

Please vote here.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8192&PN=1&TPN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8192&a mp;PN=1&TPN=1

MAANI WROTE:

Indeed, also as stated, if the buyer(s) truly want(s) to go, and is/are willing to pay for a ticket that s/he knows was free, how can any of you justify having anything to say about that?  Have you considered how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot?  Would you want others telling you what you should or shouldn't do with your money, or calling you names for engaging in this type of transaction?

Whether the concert is for charity , and the ticket was free or not , whether it is a private-for-profit concert is totally irrelevant. You might have missed my earlier post , Maani, but not only is the ticket scalping a horrendous and vile activity , but the whole distribution system is awry right from the start and mainly because of the scalping of ticket.

Who in his right mind would pay ten times the price of a ticket , if he had a proper chance at obtaining them if the sales were correctly handled and fair? Those people not having tickets have no choice (except the one of not going to the concert) but to pay exhorbitant prices. The fact is that scalping is robbery or extortion and this should be a crime.

This fact alone should suffice to prohibit this behaviour on the site. This site claims to be moral ..... after all.....

Again , I am a bit mystified by a minister's attitude in such a debate.

The only acceptable reason for selling Live 8 tickets would be to donate the funds to one of the organisations involved in Make Poverty History or one of the many agencies supplying aid to Africa.

The fact that the resale of the tickets will have no impact on the final total raised in a fundraiser, or that the concerts are about raising awareness rather than raising funds, is beside the point.  The scalpers engaged in these reprehensible sales are, albeit indirectly, making a profit from the corpses of dead Africans. (The same could be said of the boost in CD sales that will follow the gigs, but at leat the artists are putting something back).

The quickest way to end the worst ravages of poverty in the third world is for the developed world to re-evaluate its relationship with poor countries, not out of altruism (which would be nice but I'm more likely to spontaneously change sex than the CEO of a major corporation is to develop a genuine social conscience) but out of self interest; a prosperous Africa will be a huge market for all those consumer durables that are increasingly difficult to sell in domestic markets. This will also strike a real blow in the war against terrorism - when people aren't starving, being bombed or shot at and have access to decent health care and education they can be surprisingly reasonable.

Or alternatively, you can make a quick profit.

Whores!

Sorry I meant to write hoarse!

Tony R wrote: Whores! Sorry I meant to write hoarse!

Hey you woudn't be talking about those posters selling tickets again are you?  

Well, now that our integrity is gone, what shall we auction off next?

See, I've got this lovely ocean-front property on the sunny south coast of Saskatchewan....

 Prog-bay

Snow Dog wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Lets all of us declare these posts "Spam" and hhave some democracy in action here! Please vote here. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8192&PN=1&TPN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8192&a mp;a mp;a mp;PN=1&TPN=1

Please vote in this poll!

Peter wrote: Well, now that our integrity is gone, what shall we auction off next? See, I've got this lovely ocean-front property on the sunny south coast of Saskatchewan....  Prog-bay

I've got Maani's TV!!

Goes to the highest bidder!!!!

Garion81 wrote: Peter wrote: Well, now that our integrity is gone, what shall we auction off next? See, I've got this lovely ocean-front property on the sunny south coast of Saskatchewan....  Prog-bay   I've got Maani's TV!! Goes to the highest bidder!!!!

No thanks, bet his set only receives Michael Landon shows....

C'mon Maani,Max-burying your head in the sand and waiting for the July shows wont work.

EBay U.K. has banned the sale of tickets to the London Live 8, a megaconcert to raise awareness of African poverty, following pressure from musician Bob Geldof and an online campaign to sabotage the auctions.

Tickets for the concert were a hot item on eBay until activists wrecked auctions and Geldof blasted ticket sales as profiteering from misery.

Tickets were allocated Monday via an SMS lottery. More than 2 million text messages were entered, at a cost of 1.5 pounds ($2.70) each, to join the lottery for 133,000 tickets.

Some winners immediately listed tickets on eBay, and some sold for more than 2,000 pounds ($3,600).

On Tuesday, outraged eBay members began flooding the ticket auctions with fake bids that drove prices up to 10 million pounds ($18 million). The phony bids made the sale of tickets impossible, as almost every bid was fraudulent.

Some eBay members used their own accounts, possibly jeopardizing their hard-earned eBay ratings.

Others opened new accounts to place fake bids, including one called live8legalteam, prompting speculation that the bidding was organized by Live 8 itself.

EBay also came under fire from organizer Geldof, a musician best known for his 1985 Live Aid African famine-relief benefit concert that raised more than $200 million.

Geldof blasted eBay for allowing people to sell the free tickets.

On Tuesday, eBay banned all ticket sales.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '

Awaiting The Final Statement:

Snow Dog wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Lets all of us declare these posts "Spam" and hhave some democracy in action here! Please vote here. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8192&PN=1&TPN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8192&a mp;a mp;a mp;PN=1&TPN=1

I get the feeling you guys are losing interest in this debate!

Prove me wrong and vote in this poll!

Tony:

I do not see the correlation between these ticket sales and Jesus throwing the money-changers from the temple, unless you are simply trying to “get my goat.”  (If so, you failed.)  This site is not a temple, and the ticket sellers are not “turning the house of God into a den of thieves,” as Jesus noted.  Nor, as Geldof would have it, are they even “profiteering from misery.”  (Indeed, Geldof knows better than to make such an insupportable, inflammatory, broad-brush statement, however well-intentioned.)

As for Ebay, suppose I told you that I believe that they “caved in" on what remains a "free speech" issue?  Are you suggesting that just because Ebay "caved in," we should too?  And even if it were not a "free speech" issue, since when do we follow Ebay's lead?  After all, Ebay is a blatantly "commercial" enterprise, where we are not.  So they are looking at their "bottom line" - i.e., they will "blow with the prevailing wind" because they are afraid of losing customers.  We have no such mandate, compunction or raison d’etre here.

As for “moral” principles, I could argue that it is not the function of a website about prog music to have any particular socio-political or moral stance.  However, even if we accept that position, I simply do not believe that the ticket threads are compromising any "principles" the site has, or might be presumed to have.  It may not be something the site is necessarily "happy" to support.  But then, neither is hate speech, pro-drug talk, sex talk, etc.  But we support them because there is a.....principle involved: free speech.

With all due respect, I think many people here have allowed their personal views of "morality" to cloud their judgment about free speech.  And in responding to Sean’s comment, this should have particular significance (though not necessarily any special "impact") coming from a minister, to whom "morality" probably means more than it does to most people.  As I have pointed out, this site has stood behind all manner of "immoral" posts and threads.  I fail to see what makes the ticket threads so incredibly different, especially to the point at which it becomes a reason for people to leave, or to make a petit cause celebre out of it.

Sean says “Whether the concert is for charity, and the ticket was free or not, whether it is a private-for-profit concert is totally irrelevant…not only is the ticket scalping a horrendous and vile activity, but the whole distribution system is awry right from the start and mainly because of the scalping of ticket.  Who in his right mind would pay ten times the price of a ticket, if he had a proper chance at obtaining them if the sales were correctly handled and fair? Those people not having tickets have no choice (except the one of not going to the concert) but to pay exorbitant prices. The fact is that scalping is robbery or extortion and this should be a crime.”

There is a fallacy in this statement.  Suppose a venue has 25,000 seats, and Pink Floyd decides to play 4 shows.  This means that 100,000 people will get to see them.  However, 500,000 people in the area want to see them.  So 400,000 of them are not going to see the shows under any circumstance whatsoever……..unless someone with a ticket decides to sell it.  That is why “someone in their right mind would pay ten times the price of a ticket”: because they really want to go, and this is the only way they are going to be able to do so.  This is called “supply and demand.”  Indeed, imagine (as is often the case) that the seller waited 24 hours – or 48 hours, or more – in line to purchase the ticket.  He may well consider the inflated price reasonable compensation for his time, energy, discomfort, etc.

Thus, one person’s “scalper” is another person’s “savior,” and one person’s “crime” is another person’s “unbelievable fortune.”  It all depends how you look at it (or what side of the equation you are on).

I think many of you are caught up in the hysteria of the fact that these concerts are being held for the purpose of raising awareness about global (and particularly “Third World”) poverty.  Note that: raise awareness.  Not money.  Sure, money will be raised, and whatever is left after overhead expenses are deducted will be given to various NFPs.  However, that amount will be negligible compared to what might have been raised had the concerts been held for the express purpose of raising money – which they were not.  Their primary purpose - stated by Geldof, Bono and others - is raising awareness.

In this regard, how can any of you be so certain as to the motives or intentions of the sellers?  Suppose one or more of the sellers does care about global poverty, and intends to donate the money to charity?  What then?  Do you want to be the one who prevented that charity from receiving that money?

But let’s go further.  Suppose the seller cares about global poverty, but the buyer doesn’t give a whit about it: he just wants to see the re-united Pink Floyd.  Who is “moral” then? Or suppose the seller doesn’t give a whit about poverty, but the buyer really does, and wants to go to the concert to express his/her support, and is more than willing to pay the asked price?  Or suppose both the buyer and seller care about poverty, but each of them has a different “plan” for expressing that – the seller by donating the money to charity, and the buyer by attending the concert and, say, holding up a placard with an anti-poverty message?  How on God’s great earth can any of you claim to know which if any of these scenarios might take place with regard to any or all of the sellers?

And I am the one being accused of “burying my head in the sand?"  From my perspective, I am the one who is considering more possibilities than any of you are.  Instead, you have all simply “presumed the worst” about every seller, without really knowing it.  And then you expect me (on behalf of the admin group) to simply go along with your presumptions, and delete the threads.

Sorry.  I would rather “err on the site of caution,” and allow the threads to remain, than to presume, as most of you do, the nefarious intent of the sellers, and play the “benevolent dictator” you want me to play by deleting the threads out of some misguided, and ultimately unprovable, notion of the “morality” involved.

Peace.

Oh dear,Maani has made a simple error:

He hasnt actually read the posts made by the spammers!

Therefore he isnt in full possession of all the facts because he hasnt seen the evidence.

So your judgement is based on hearsay?

In this regard, how can any of you be so certain as to the motives or intentions of the sellers?  Suppose one or more of the sellers does care about global poverty, and intends to donate the money to charity?  What then?  Do you want to be the one who prevented that charity from receiving that money?

The sellars have stated their motives,Maani.

Read their bloody posts for pity's sake!

James Lee wrote: I can't really understand Geldof taking shots at eBay, though...there's no confusion as to eBay's purpose and function. They may make it easier for people to do things like this, but they're not responsible for it. I guess even Irish Jews can make scapegoating work in their favor sometimes.

Until we meet again indeed James.

Thanx for your support!

Tony:

Actually, I have read their "bloddy" posts.  Of the six people claiming to have tickets for sale, three have stated that between 55% and 100% of the money will go to charity, one has claimed that he "needs the money" (which could mean anything), and two have not expressed any intention, good or bad.

So what "facts" am I missing?

Peace.

Peter wrote: Well, now that our integrity is gone, what shall we auction off next? See, I've got this lovely ocean-front property on the sunny south coast of Saskatchewan....  Prog-bay

Sunny south coast of Saskatchewan, uh?!?!?

Nice Try, Mr. Rideout! That would make it somewhere in Corpus Christi , Texas!

Maani Wrote:

There is a fallacy in this statement.  Suppose a venue has 25,000 seats, and Pink Floyd decides to play 4 shows.  This means that 100,000 people will get to see them.  However, 500,000 people in the area want to see them.  So 400,000 of them are not going to see the shows under any circumstance whatsoever……..unless someone with a ticket decides to sell it.  That is why “someone in their right mind would pay ten times the price of a ticket”: because they really want to go, and this is the only way they are going to be able to do so.  This is called “supply and demand.”  Indeed, imagine (as is often the case) that the seller waited 24 hours – or 48 hours, or more – in line to purchase the ticket.  He may well consider the inflated price reasonable compensation for his time, energy, discomfort, etc.

Thus, one person’s “scalper” is another person’s “savior,” and one person’s “crime” is another person’s “unbelievable fortune.”  It all depends how you look at it (or what side of the equation you are on).

Would Pink Floyd not be aware of another 400,000 possibilities of selling tickets and add more shows? Sure They would! And Floyd playing in 25.000 seats venue , I would love it , but unconceivable, nowadays , unless they play the same venue for two weeks in a row. so much for the fallacy

So a scalper is a saviour the same way a thug would be his victim's saviour and a rapist would be the women's saviour? I may be pushing it a bit here, but hear me out!

If I go to a scalper , it is out of no other solution or as a forced victim not as a willing victim!

Forced victim , because of the ticket sales system which is plainly aware of this and I am sure ia an active part into it and therefore is deciding to milk the cows of the last ounce of milk not worrying a bit of the young bull that needs to be fed. Forced victim because I could not manage to get a ticket because the tel lines were all busy  (hoarded by Scalpers) or were the tel lines open at all? (maybe one or two, but certainly not enough) or were all of the 100,000 tickets for sales openly or was there only a quarter out of that up for direct public sale , the rest fto be shared in between the vultures out to make a buck on the artist's back since the organizer certainly gave arguments to the artist not to pay for the asked price! Forced victim simply because the media have pummeled my brains into submission because I have to be part of the event or I am selfish (in the case of Live8), or a loser (in the case of the latest fashionable group) or a poor sod ( I cannot afford to pay for the technology/web access to order tickets fast with my gold VISA card .

The real shame is that ticket sales and organization is almost a monopoly! One firm has got over 85% of the market! In Belgium , no groups or organizer has the possibility (oh , they have the right , of course but beware of our ire! Mr. Independant) to do anything without their consent.

Yes , organizing concerts is a jungle and free enterprise! I know because I have organized a few of them and have a few friends who have done that also (most have done it out of love for the music and the good times offered to everyone)! It is a risky business and it should be about making money - all I ever managed to do is break even some shows earning compensating for the other's losses - but the way it is handled by the monopolistic Clearchannel is more than undecent, it is vile and relies on mafioso techniques!

I hate big crowds - over 7000 or more -  (some sort of claustro-agora-phobia but nothing that cannot be dominated for an evening) but still managed to catch the Floyd tours at the turn of the 90's , but that was the last time I went to such a massive event. So I could not care less for all of those massive media events of the sort being the subject hereof and I dare say I boycott most of them because of the very media event they are!  I would not be caught dead or alive in live8 or massive U2 concerts.

Snow Dog wrote: I have Pmd u Tone, but why has your thread from yesterday been deleted?

BLASPHEMY!!!! BE DAMNED THY!!! ZE COUNTER IS MINE!!!!

My joy of finding this site a few weeks ago is now turning to despair having read this thread and seen all the live8 ticket sale postings.

I am not marching to Edinburgh, but I have sent emails to Blair, Brown and the others. In my opinion, its not about a music concert or Pink Floyd or Bob Geldof, but its about ordinary people coming together and saying enough is enough, end the obsence inequality in the World now. This is how slavery was finally abolished by the force of overwhelming public pressure.

I still cannot see how this forum could allow anyone to re-sell tickets.

Radioactive Toy wrote: Snow Dog wrote: I have Pmd u Tone, but why has your thread from yesterday been deleted?   BLASPHEMY!!!! BE DAMNED THY!!! ZE COUNTER IS MINE!!!!

Erm.... *cough*..........Hi there Toy

Another battle lost and won.

Thanks for all the support!

We didnt win the war but we won the hearts and minds.......

What a wonderful community we have here!

maani wrote: Tony: I do not see the correlation between these ticket sales and Jesus throwing the money-changers from the temple, unless you are simply trying to “get my goat.”  (If so, you failed.)  This site is not a temple, and the ticket sellers are not “turning the house of God into a den of thieves,” as Jesus noted.  Nor, as Geldof would have it, are they even “profiteering from misery.”  (Indeed, Geldof knows better than to make such an insupportable, inflammatory, broad-brush statement, however well-intentioned.) As for Ebay, suppose I told you that I believe that they “caved in" on what remains a "free speech" issue?  Are you suggesting that just because Ebay "caved in," we should too?  And even if it were not a "free speech" issue, since when do we follow Ebay's lead?  After all, Ebay is a blatantly "commercial" enterprise, where we are not.  So they are looking at their "bottom line" - i.e., they will "blow with the prevailing wind" because they are afraid of losing customers.  We have no such mandate, compunction or raison d’etre here. As for “moral” principles, I could argue that it is not the function of a website about prog music to have any particular socio-political or moral stance.  However, even if we accept that position, I simply do not believe that the ticket threads are compromising any "principles" the site has, or might be presumed to have.  It may not be something the site is necessarily "happy" to support.  But then, neither is hate speech, pro-drug talk, sex talk, etc.  But we support them because there is a.....principle involved: free speech. With all due respect, I think many people here have allowed their personal views of "morality" to cloud their judgment about free speech.  And in responding to Sean’s comment, this should have particular significance (though not necessarily any special "impact") coming from a minister, to whom "morality" probably means more than it does to most people.  As I have pointed out, this site has stood behind all manner of "immoral" posts and threads.  I fail to see what makes the ticket threads so incredibly different, especially to the point at which it becomes a reason for people to leave, or to make a petit cause celebre out of it. Sean says “Whether the concert is for charity, and the ticket was free or not, whether it is a private-for-profit concert is totally irrelevant…not only is the ticket scalping a horrendous and vile activity, but the whole distribution system is awry right from the start and mainly because of the scalping of ticket.  Who in his right mind would pay ten times the price of a ticket, if he had a proper chance at obtaining them if the sales were correctly handled and fair? Those people not having tickets have no choice (except the one of not going to the concert) but to pay exorbitant prices. The fact is that scalping is robbery or extortion and this should be a crime.” There is a fallacy in this statement.  Suppose a venue has 25,000 seats, and Pink Floyd decides to play 4 shows.  This means that 100,000 people will get to see them.  However, 500,000 people in the area want to see them.  So 400,000 of them are not going to see the shows under any circumstance whatsoever……..unless someone with a ticket decides to sell it.  That is why “someone in their right mind would pay ten times the price of a ticket”: because they really want to go, and this is the only way they are going to be able to do so.  This is called “supply and demand.”  Indeed, imagine (as is often the case) that the seller waited 24 hours – or 48 hours, or more – in line to purchase the ticket.  He may well consider the inflated price reasonable compensation for his time, energy, discomfort, etc. Thus, one person’s “scalper” is another person’s “savior,” and one person’s “crime” is another person’s “unbelievable fortune.”  It all depends how you look at it (or what side of the equation you are on). I think many of you are caught up in the hysteria of the fact that these concerts are being held for the purpose of raising awareness about global (and particularly “Third World”) poverty.  Note that: raise awareness.  Not money.  Sure, money will be raised, and whatever is left after overhead expenses are deducted will be given to various NFPs.  However, that amount will be negligible compared to what might have been raised had the concerts been held for the express purpose of raising money – which they were not.  Their primary purpose - stated by Geldof, Bono and others - is raising awareness. In this regard, how can any of you be so certain as to the motives or intentions of the sellers?  Suppose one or more of the sellers does care about global poverty, and intends to donate the money to charity?  What then?  Do you want to be the one who prevented that charity from receiving that money? But let’s go further.  Suppose the seller cares about global poverty, but the buyer doesn’t give a whit about it: he just wants to see the re-united Pink Floyd.  Who is “moral” then? Or suppose the seller doesn’t give a whit about poverty, but the buyer really does, and wants to go to the concert to express his/her support, and is more than willing to pay the asked price?  Or suppose both the buyer and seller care about poverty, but each of them has a different “plan” for expressing that – the seller by donating the money to charity, and the buyer by attending the concert and, say, holding up a placard with an anti-poverty message?  How on God’s great earth can any of you claim to know which if any of these scenarios might take place with regard to any or all of the sellers? And I am the one being accused of “burying my head in the sand?"  From my perspective, I am the one who is considering more possibilities than any of you are.  Instead, you have all simply “presumed the worst” about every seller, without really knowing it.  And then you expect me (on behalf of the admin group) to simply go along with your presumptions, and delete the threads. Sorry.  I would rather “err on the site of caution,” and allow the threads to remain, than to presume, as most of you do, the nefarious intent of the sellers, and play the “benevolent dictator” you want me to play by deleting the threads out of some misguided, and ultimately unprovable, notion of the “morality” involved. Peace.

Great eulogy for  Free Speech Maani !

Love, peace and... Understanding

Sean:

You are grasping at straws.  Even if Pink Floyd knew that another 400,000 people wanted to see them, and added even a few more nights, there would still be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, who would not get to see them.  And this is true even if every ticket were sold properly, no phone lines were jammed by scalpers, and every single aspect of the ticket sales was "above board."  That is a simple fact of life, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

So my example remains both logical and fully supportable, and leaves those without tickets - be they 1, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 - with only one option: find someone with a ticket who either cannot or does not want to go, or is willing to sell their ticket.  At that point, "the market reigns," and the price paid by the buyer will be whatever he or she decides is acceptable to him/her.  If the seller wants, say, $250 for a $25 ticket, that may be too high, and the buyer will not buy.  However, if the seller wants, say, $100 for that ticket, that may be acceptable to the buyer and they will pay it - oftimes gladly.  Again, it depends entirely on how badly the person who could not get a ticket wants to see the show.  And, again, if they want to see it badly enough, the inflated price is not going to bother them, because the show matters more than the money.

And therein lies the crux: it is a personal value judgment.  As with any decision one makes, one (hopefully) weighs the pros and cons in the balance, and makes the decision that way.  For many people, a concert by their favorite group (especially if that group is re-forming after many years) will outweigh any concern about what they spend for the ticket.  For example, if Gentle Giant were to re-form, and I simply could not get a ticket despite best efforts, and someone offered to sell me a ticket, I would be willing to pay almost any (sane) amount to see them.  If the face value is $75 and the person wants $300, I will pay it - gladly, and without batting an eyelash.  Because I have made the "value judgment" that the concert is far more important to me than the money: I can always make more money; I cannot always see Gentle Giant.

Does it make the seller any less an "extorter" of sorts?  No.  But it is my choice to "allow" him to extort me.  And no one has the right to judge that transaction except me.

Yes, there are "professional" scalpers who wait in line for long periods (and/or pay other people to wait in line for them) in order to get as many tickets as they can at face value so they can sell them at inflated prices.  And I consider this practice utterly repugnant, and would support any legislation and/or enforcement to make it illegal - even if it lowered my chances of getting a ticket from one of them at some future point, should I really want to see the show.

However, it is clear from the manner in which the tickets were disbursed for the Live8 shows that this was not even possible; anyone selling tickets cannot have more than a couple of them.  Thus, there are no "professional" scalpers here, only mercenary individuals who saw a chance to make a "quick buck."

And consider this: even many of those who are attempting to sell their tickets might well have entered the lottery for the right reasons, or at least had every intention of going to the concert themselves.  They may only have decided to sell their tickets when they realized how much money they could make from them.  Setting aside for a moment the "cause" nature of the show, even this is a "value judgment," if an admittedly rapacious one: the sellers decided that the money was more important than the concert.

As an aside, if you watched the Ebay system as tickets became available there, you would have noticed a huge spike in available tickets for London after it was announced that Pink Floyd was re-forming for that show.  Thus, it is likely that some people who were originally planning to go (but may not be particularly big PF fans) saw a "golden opportunity" to make enormous amounts of money since they knew that PF fans would pay just about anything to see them re-united.  Again, there is no question that this is "rapacious" thinking.  Nor am I suggesting this is the only reason they might have decided to sell their tickets.

Ultimately, with specific respect to the issue you raise about scalping in general, I return to my belief that a person's decision to choose to pay an inflated price for a ticket is a value judgment that only they can make, and is not subject to anyone else's judgment.  Plainly put, if I choose to pay $300 for a $75 Gentle Giant ticket because I have made a value judgment that the concert is far more important to me than the money, that is absolutely none of anyone else's business, and I reject the notion that anyone has any right to judge either me or the seller: we have come to a mutually acceptable business arrangement that each of us is happy with.  End of story.

Peace.

Tony:

As an aside, I just checked the ticket threads again, and particularly the dates of the posts.  It turns out that each of the three people who claim to be planning to donate all or a portion of the sales price to charity did so before you started this thread: that is, those offers were not a "response" to this thread, but rather were made when those sellers first offered the tickets.

You are skeptical - no, cynical - about all of these claims.  And you have that right, of course.  What you do not have the right to do is expect everyone else - including the admin group - to "follow your lead" in this, and be as cynical as you are, and, as stated earlier, presume that all of these people are lying.

It seems to me that it is you who is getting your foot stuck further and further down your throat, as you make claim after unsubstantiated claim, the most recent being: "Oh dear, Maani has made a simple error: He hasnt actually read the posts made by the spammers! Therefore he isnt in full possession of all the facts because he hasnt seen the evidence. So your judgement is based on hearsay? "In this regard, how can any of you be so certain as to the motives or intentions of the sellers?  Suppose one or more of the sellers does care about global poverty, and intends to donate the money to charity?  What then?  Do you want to be the one who prevented that charity from receiving that money?" The sellars have stated their motives, Maani. Read their bloody posts for pity's sake!"

Yet I did read the posts, and found that the sellers did indeed "state their motives," and that, in three of six cases - and prior to this ranting thread - they stated that all or a portion of the sales price would be donated to charity.

Now that I have proven your accusation completely wrong, you turn around in a "sour grapes" way and say, "Alright, well, okay, they did state that money would go to charity.  But they're all lying!"   Thus, instead of showing even one iota of humility by admitting that you were wrong re both your accusation of me and your claim of the "motives" of the sellers, you simply compound your cynical arrogance by making yet another accusation you cannot prove.

I still love you like a brother, Tony, but you did not "lose" this one due to my arrogance or stubbornness, but to your own.

Peace.

Tony R wrote: Another battle lost and won. Thanks for all the support! We didnt win the war but we won the hearts and minds....... What a wonderful community we have here!

At least now we know that an overwhelming majority of us are on the same side when ethical issues are involved. I'm proud of being a member in this forum!

maani wrote: Sean: You are grasping at straws.  Even if Pink Floyd knew that another 400,000 people wanted to see them, and added even a few more nights, there would still be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, who would not get to see them.  And this is true even if every ticket were sold properly, no phone lines were jammed by scalpers, and every single aspect of the ticket sales was "above board."  That is a simple fact of life, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. So my example remains both logical and fully supportable, and leaves those without tickets - be they 1, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 - with only one option: find someone with a ticket who either cannot or does not want to go, or is willing to sell their ticket.  At that point, "the market reigns," and the price paid by the buyer will be whatever he or she decides is acceptable to him/her.  If the seller wants, say, $250 for a $25 ticket, that may be too high, and the buyer will not buy.  However, if the seller wants, say, $100 for that ticket, that may be acceptable to the buyer and they will pay it - oftimes gladly.  Again, it depends entirely on how badly the person who could not get a ticket wants to see the show.  And, again, if they want to see it badly enough, the inflated price is not going to bother them, because the show matters more than the money. And therein lies the crux: it is a personal value judgment.  As with any decision one makes, one (hopefully) weighs the pros and cons in the balance, and makes the decision that way.  For many people, a concert by their favorite group (especially if that group is re-forming after many years) will outweigh any concern about what they spend for the ticket.  For example, if Gentle Giant were to re-form, and I simply could not get a ticket despite best efforts, and someone offered to sell me a ticket, I would be willing to pay almost any (sane) amount to see them.  If the face value is $75 and the person wants $300, I will pay it - gladly, and without batting an eyelash.  Because I have made the "value judgment" that the concert is far more important to me than the money: I can always make more money; I cannot always see Gentle Giant. Does it make the seller any less an "extorter" of sorts?  No.  But it is my choice to "allow" him to extort me.  And no one has the right to judge that transaction except me. Yes, there are "professional" scalpers who wait in line for long periods (and/or pay other people to wait in line for them) in order to get as many tickets as they can at face value so they can sell them at inflated prices.  And I consider this practice utterly repugnant, and would support any legislation and/or enforcement to make it illegal - even if it lowered my chances of getting a ticket from one of them at some future point, should I really want to see the show. However, it is clear from the manner in which the tickets were disbursed for the Live8 shows that this was not even possible; anyone selling tickets cannot have more than a couple of them.  Thus, there are no "professional" scalpers here, only mercenary individuals who saw a chance to make a "quick buck." And consider this: even many of those who are attempting to sell their tickets might well have entered the lottery for the right reasons, or at least had every intention of going to the concert themselves.  They may only have decided to sell their tickets when they realized how much money they could make from them.  Setting aside for a moment the "cause" nature of the show, even this is a "value judgment," if an admittedly rapacious one: the sellers decided that the money was more important than the concert. As an aside, if you watched the Ebay system as tickets became available there, you would have noticed a huge spike in available tickets for London after it was announced that Pink Floyd was re-forming for that show.  Thus, it is likely that some people who were originally planning to go (but may not be particularly big PF fans) saw a "golden opportunity" to make enormous amounts of money since they knew that PF fans would pay just about anything to see them re-united.  Again, there is no question that this is "rapacious" thinking.  Nor am I suggesting this is the only reason they might have decided to sell their tickets. Ultimately, with specific respect to the issue you raise about scalping in general, I return to my belief that a person's decision to choose to pay an inflated price for a ticket is a value judgment that only they can make, and is not subject to anyone else's judgment.  Plainly put, if I choose to pay $300 for a $75 Gentle Giant ticket because I have made a value judgment that the concert is far more important to me than the money, that is absolutely none of anyone else's business, and I reject the notion that anyone has any right to judge either me or the seller: we have come to a mutually acceptable business arrangement that each of us is happy with.  End of story. Peace.

You can say or justify till your blue in the face Maani it will never support this issue.  Scalping is wrong and having had to buy scalped tickets before I never ever looked at the person ripping me off as a "savior" in fact just opposite .  I will never do it again.

Hey just a thought in the interest of Free Speech we could have a Stolen Items for Sale  thread or Behavior not related to Decency and stick them, the posts in question,  in there.

Whatever, you aren't removing the posts and all it has done is cause me to lose respect for you and the other admins.  Sorry, you have a nice place but this is unjustifiable to me.

Snow Dog:

Interesting.  You note that quite a number of people viewed your poll, but only 28 voted in it.  What does that tell you?  I am surprised that you fail to see the relevance.

Garion:

Obviously, the site would not permit the sale of stolen property of any type.  And though it would admittedly be difficult to prove whether something was stolen or not, it is clear that most if not all of these tickets were obtained through "proper" channels, i.e., the lottery.

As for "Behavior Not Related to Decency," I must continue to reiterate my previous comment.  There have been any number of threads and posts that members complained were indecent, immoral, or otherwise inappropriate.  Yet no one left or made a "cause celebre" out of them, even when the admin group chose not to delete them.  If something was, in fact, indecent or otherwise inappropriate, the admin group either edited or deleted the offending thread/post, and/or ejected the member responsible.

"Decency" is in the eyes of the beholder - or, more practically, in each person's definition of what is "indecent."  In the case of this site, the admin group determines, sometimes on a case by case basis, whether an offending post is "decent" or not, and to what degree.  And again, in the past when the admin group did not side with even a majority of the members over something they felt was "indecent" or otherwise objectionable (and thus deletable), no one made a mountain out of a molehill about it.  The determination of the admin group was accepted, even if a little bit of grumbling persisted.

What makes this different?  After all, it does not rise near to the level of some of the threads/posts that members have complained about in the past - some of which were, in fact, deleted.

I continue to feel that many of you are "working on emotions" rather than truly thinking this through.  There is a "hysteria" on this site right now that is extremely unhealthy, and is, sadly, apparently being deliberately "stoked" by a few members.  The problem is that that hysteria has its roots only partially in facts and evidence; the rest is presumption and cynicism.  Would I be too far afield to suggest that this is how dictators come to power?  After all, Tony has all but begged me to go over to "the Dark Side of the force" and use my authority as "benevolent dictator" to delete the offending threads - and he did this by quoting no less a totalitarian primer than Animal Farm!

Call me arrogant, call me stubborn, call me anything you want.  But if I have anything to say about it, I will not permit this site to lose its focus, to compromise its most cherished principles, to cave in to the threats or hysteria of members, or to become a place where freedom of speech can and will be impinged by the "majority vote" of its members.

I want all of you to keep this in mind as we in America watch our freedoms and civil liberties erode as the result of a pro-rich, pro-war, right-wing agenda that has no room for dissention - which it has openly labeled "unpatriotic."  As two reporters are sent to jail by the Supreme Court for not revealing sources - an absolutely essential element of a "free" press - and when two members of the Bush Administration state, with a straight face, that "people need to watch what they say," I cannot help but be wary of those who would send the admin group down the road to the same sort of proto-totalitarian censorship under the guise of some misguided notion of "morality."

I will not become the "Big Brother" of Prog Archives.

Peace.

Maani is the root of all evil..............

Not at all but I can't help feeling patronised.To talk of hysteria,over-wrought emotion or whatever is not really fair.How does one prove that one didnt get hysterical? How does one prove that when a "person" says he is going to give monies to charity,that he does do? Were these people asked?

It is a poor state of affairs when the rights of members that aren't members come before the feelings of people who are members.

I cant prove that these individuals will or wont donate some or all of their ill-gotten gains to charity but one thing I can prove is that they only joined the forum to advertise the sale of their tickets.If they merely wished to write a fanboy review of Octavarium they would not need to become members,only give an e-mail address.

Whatever,no-one died.A few harsh words were exchanged (although NOT by Maani) as usual I was the worst culprit.

But at least the admin group know what we will and wont put up with.Let's hope they take that on board.

Maani said

Snow Dog:

Interesting.  You note that quite a number of people viewed your poll, but only 28 voted in it.  What does that tell you?  I am surprised that you fail to see the relevance.

What makes you feel that I fail to see the relevance? I thought It was obvious from my words that I was dissapointed! Long time members have voted though, people who make the Forum what it is!

Anyway it'll soon be irrelevant and it has brought up interesting discussion!

I have tried to put myself inside the mind of an ordinary, decent member of the public wishing to obtain 2 tickets for this event.  They have texted on several/ many occasions and finally won. 

Having done so, precious little would ordinarily get in the way of such an important event in their life; either because they wish to add their voice to the growing call to end world poverty, or to witness the musical spectacle.

Of all who obtained tickets however, it is reasonable to expect that in ordinary circumstances, a little under 1% of these lucky winners have an event crop up in their life which supercedes the concert.  Because the event is so special, what would any right minded individual do?  They would want their loved ones/ friends to enjoy the concert in their place, and maybe just charge then enough to cover their texting costs.

Call me naive if you will, but I am absolutely baffled as to why someone would wish to sell their tickets either on ebay or this site, with the purest of intentions.  I am trying to be restrained in casting judgement, but the threads which Tony R highlighted were rather low on 'humility' and 'regret' for my liking, and regardless of their motives, to try and offload them to the highest bidder on our site has brought a bitter taste to my mouth.

It saddens me greatly that this has gone unchecked in the name of 'Free Speech', and while I don't wish to offend anyone over this issue, feel that in all good conscience, I have had to express my support for Tony's stand.

Tony:

You said, "It is a poor state of affairs when the rights of members that aren't members come before the feelings of people who are members."

A very interesting comment.  In my book, "rights" always trump "feelings" if the rights are legitimate and the feelings are not supported by enough evidence to show that the "right" was incorrect in the first place.

Think about it.  As a member, what is more important: that the admin group protect your feelings?  Or that it protect your rights?  Indeed, which one does the admin group have more of a "mandate" and responsibility to protect?  I would be shocked if you answered the former.

Peace.

Maani,I am merely pointing out that these "members" arent really members.So why should they be accorded rights?

Ok,so a single "poster" is a potential regular or a "lurker", but it is as plain to see that the ticket guys have no intention of returning to the site.....

You always take everything at face value?

Must have been quite a chump in your time.......