Genre Classification Issues
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80309
Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 18:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Genre Classification Issues
Posted By: Anthony H.
Subject: Genre Classification Issues
Date Posted: August 06 2011 at 23:54
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Progressive-rock subgenres are not always clear-cut. Thus, it's inevitable that some bands on PA end up not being filed under the subgenre that most accurately reflects their musical style. I've seen many threads on the forum requesting changes in a band's classification, so I figured that I'd start a thread organizing all these requests in one place. If you feel that a band is incorrectly classified, post here and provide a sample and/or justification that supports your request. This thread is NOT the place to discuss the quality of a band's music. It's just a way to make it easier for the collabs to properly classify the many bands that are included on the site. -------------  |
Replies:
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 06 2011 at 23:58
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Anyways, I'd like to suggest that Unifaun be moved from Symphonic Prog into Neo-Prog. The music focuses primarily on lush synths and vocals. This is Genesis-prog, but in a Marillion kind of way. ------------- |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: August 07 2011 at 00:00
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Great idea! Let me start out with Kravetz who´s filed under Krautrock: I really love that album and don´t pay too much attention to the genres in general, - but this is very far away from being Krautrock.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 07 2011 at 00:34
| I've always wondered what made Dun a zeuhl band |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 07 2011 at 00:52
I absolutely agree. They're RIO/Avant. ------------- |
Triceratopsoil wrote:Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 07 2011 at 06:59
| One I've come across recently is Chest Rockwell, who are listed as neo prog. If I'm honest, I don't see much prog at all, but definitely not Neo. |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: August 07 2011 at 21:53
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IMHO Singularity ( http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=687" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=687 ) should be filed under Symphonic instead of Crossover. Their first album may be Crossover, somewhat, but to me their latest two are pure Symphonic. ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: August 09 2011 at 16:48
That line is very blurred. I agree on Dun. That one appears to be purely association and geography based. Amygdala is another that really straddles the line. There are also a few RIO/Avant bands I would consider Zeuhl as well like Nebelnest and Guapo. The progmetal subs get a little boggy too. Bands like Gordian Knot have a few distorted parts, but a distorted guitar does not always metal make. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 09 2011 at 17:24
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having Deerhoof classified as Xover is strange and causes issues when they are being reviewed. Avant or Math Rock even Eclectic would be closer to their classification outside this site. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: August 14 2011 at 16:41
| I'm sure I'm displaying my ignorance but I also struggle with some classifications. Obviously many prog albums display characteristics of more than one sub-genre, but why is a band like Harvester Indo-prog (yes Hemåt contains some raga) while Dzyan is Krautrock (much more Raga than Harvester and possibly more Indo-prog than krautrock?)? |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 02:25
Rather than solicit a response on this guys, I've pretty much got my head around this on the way to work this morning. These pesky prog artists refuse to restrict their output to one clearly defined sub-genre of music. Curse them! 
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 02:56
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wut where did you get that avatar |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 03:09
It's one of the defaults... ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 06:07
David Bedford in crossover prog???? 
Should definitely be Avant/RIO, no???  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 12:01
At the time I posted that he had stolen my avatar |
Posted By: Sheavy
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 17:29
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Elias Hulk are classified as a krautrock band, but they do not have a "German" way of doing rock. They should be under Heavy Prog, like the reviewer mentioned. (yes I have listened to the album) http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3642" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3642 ------------- 
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Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: August 15 2011 at 19:04
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Could collabs possibly review this page? And perhaps a pin would be good?
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 07:50
You should bring that up in the ZART thread then. I guess I'll report each of these to the respective teams for you guys. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 07:54
I have little expertise on Kraut, so what do you guys think these guys should be under? I heard either heavy or symph. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 08:00
 So you think Harvester should be moved to Kraut and Dzyan to Indo? ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 08:03
All current suggestions have been forwarded to the CZ  ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 08:39
| Reading band bios and genre definitions, checking out tags on RYM, AllMusic, Last.fm etc. would help solve some of these questions for you guys. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 13:11
Hi Anthony. I personally added this bad (with a bio provided by the band) despite I .consider their album the cheapest, unimaginative and most mediocre attempt of cloning Genesis. I even had a terrible word exchange with Nad Sylvan (Member of the band in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&KW=UNIFAUN&PN=110" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&KW=UNIFAUN&PN=110 ) due to my opinions made in the the review, but I believe any band attempting so carefully to re-create Genesis, basing the sound in the use of keyboards and vocals in the style of Banks and Gabriel/Collins, is a Symphonic band. That was my opinion when added them and it's still, it's not a matter of quality, I hate the album, but I believe they have to stay where they are Thanks for your interest Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:06
| Then wtf is Marillion? |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:23
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When you spot a minefield, knot down it's presence on a map but never ever walk straight into it. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:34
Marillion wasa a good band (Until Fish left) that is INFLUENCED by Genesis, but in no way a clone. - Fish with his strong Scottish accent, in no way imitates Gabriel, he uses his natural range. - Mark Kelly in no way plays like Banks, his sound is clearly more oriented towards bands like Europe or Jan Hammer (Miami Vice era), but with a slight Bankian edge. - Steve Rothery doesn't has the slightest similarity with Steve Hackett, his style is much more heavy and less dark - Pete Trewavas has very little in common with Rutherford. So Marillion is an original band with influences, nothing less. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:53
| Spoken like a fanboy in denial |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 14:58
That thread is great Ivan. I wish I could get into a flamewar with someone (somewhat) famous.
nobody cares
nope ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 15:55
Not a fanboy, as a fact not even a fan,
Apart from Script from a Jester's Tear and Misplaced Childhood, I hardly care for Marillion. But I'm not deaf.  Iván -------------
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http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=233" rel="nofollow - MARILLION http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1766" rel="nofollow - Brave | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=289871" rel="nofollow - review 
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=233" rel="nofollow - MARILLION http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=19574" rel="nofollow - Happiness Is The Road | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=182374" rel="nofollow - review 
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=233" rel="nofollow - MARILLION http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7921" rel="nofollow - Live from Loreley | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=50260" rel="nofollow - review 
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=233" rel="nofollow - MARILLION http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=890" rel="nofollow - Misplaced Childhood | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=218585" rel="nofollow - review 
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=233" rel="nofollow - MARILLION http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1761" rel="nofollow - Seasons End | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=289932" rel="nofollow - review Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 19:29
I'm not trying to put gasoline in the fire, but their debut sounds A LOT like Genesis meets Pink Floyd. After that they just leaned more towards Pink Floyd (Clutching at Straws looks A LOT like The Wall to me, from the concept to the music and lyrics, though not as dark and "deep").Actually, most of those bands said to be "quality neo prog" are basically Genesis meets Pink Floyd, at least among in the English crops, I don't know any neo Polish band, which is a shame considering they have the biggest (or at least the most importnat) of such scene today to the point that it influences many Polish progressive metal bands. -------------   
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 21:46
I don't deny that their main influence is Genesis, but they are not cloning them, as a fact since they blend the style of two bands, they are creating a new sound On the other hand a band like UNIFAUN, who's motto is to release "the songs Genesis never did", are IMO simple clones. Iván -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: August 18 2011 at 07:14
I AM a huge Marillion fan, and as I've said here god knows how many times, they haven't sounded like Genesis since at least Fugazi, and even on that, the influence was getting weaker. BTW Ivan, they've been even better since Fish left  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: August 18 2011 at 07:48
Agree on the first point, disagree on the second (even though I'm not Iván  ).-------------
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: August 18 2011 at 10:41
| come to think of it, Dzyan are in some ways more jazz rock/fusion than specifically krautrock |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: August 23 2011 at 02:01
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http://www.jerrylucky.com/commentaries_044.htm" rel="nofollow - interesting this might be of something that might help improve the site also the guys who wrote it seems very knowledgeable about prog, so maybe contact him and let him join the squad. (or maybe he already are :O ) -------------  
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 23 2011 at 11:52
Hi Aginor, this is not new, as a fact when Prog Archive started, ART ROCK was the sub-genre (or category if you want) in where bands like Roxy Music, STYX, ASIA, etc falled. GEPR supported this theory with their definition:
On those days M@x created Prog Related and more or less covered the parameters of what we had considered Art Rock, so we were ibna prolem Later there was a big discussion here and Mike (If I'm not wrong) presented us the new definition of Art Rock, as a fact with Tony we discovered that the term Art Rock had evolved through time:
And this one
So it was obvious that this bands fall into Art Rock, instead of creating new absurd sub-genres for one band, so with this information Tony and I wrote a new definition that was on the site for a couple years:
When Micky and Raff left the Symphonic Team, they took Art Rock, but the genre was HUGE, being that most teams (Including Symphonic), had sent the bands that no team accepted to Art Roick So the Administrators decided to divide Art Rock into three new genres:
This solved the issue of having almost 1,000 bands in one sigle category called Art Rock, and used the existing definition to create three genres. Keep Proggin' Iván BTW: I believe Jerry has collaborated with us more than once.
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Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: August 25 2011 at 13:46
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"come to think of it, Dzyan are in some ways more jazz rock/fusion than specifically krautrock". Good point, presdoug. Dzyan certainly has jr/f at their core, but certainly indo-prog is a big part of their sound. The definition on this site of Krautrock as, "an anarchic, intense, acid, tellurian, nocturnal, spacey, dark and oniric "adventure" through rock music." doesn't particularly apply to this band anymore than a number of prog bands. In my humble uneducated opinion of course |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: August 25 2011 at 13:55
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Here's another band where the genre allocation throws me a little (and contrary to how this might look, I don't generally get that hung up on labels, but anyhooo...) Samurai released their eponymous album back in 1971. A very nice little album that mixes psych rock and jazz, and to me has quite a strong Canterbury sound, including on the bonus tracks which include live songs written for an unrealised second album. A special collaborator reviewing the album describes it as, "solid, energetic proto- prog with heavily inflicted jazz and R'n'B undertones, moderately related to the Canterbury patterns and an extra psychedelic sensibility." I don't think to my ears that's too far from the mark. What I would argue is that this one album band is much closer to Canterbury than Art Rock (it's under Crossover). The band in the album notes describe themselves as progressive jazz-rock. At the end of the day though, I'm just happy that the album is listed.
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Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: August 25 2011 at 13:57
| Hey, I'm now a Groupie! Hope the band members are lookers! |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: August 25 2011 at 14:04
 Now you can vote in polls ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: August 25 2011 at 14:07
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I think 10cc should be under crossover. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 16:11
| If this thread is still going, why are Guapo under RIO/Avant and not Zeuhl? |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 17:07
| Probably because only 2 of their albums could even be described as Zeuhl |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 18:34
| Squarepusher should be in electronic. I never once have listened to him and thought about the nice jazz I was listening to. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 19:27
| Maybe, but he's not "progressive electronic" by the site's definition. |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 19:48
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Isn't Squarepusher a dubstep artist?
------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 19:50
| I thought he was under the Electronica tag? |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 20:50
Drill n bass
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 21:14
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Squarepusher is more on the electronic side. I have Hard Normal Daddy, and while there is definitely some jazz and fusion elements (especially in his bass playing), the overall music is electronic or drum n bass.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: March 06 2012 at 21:17
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Yea, like Colin said, not PE in the PA form of PE. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: March 07 2012 at 02:18
Thanks, must be the two that I have then
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: March 07 2012 at 13:04
A full, detailed policy on this issue has been published since the thread was active last time: forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136" rel="nofollow - Band Moves Policy Hope that helps. Squarepusher has been added to JR/F because he has some proper jazz-rock albums, his electronica output was irrelevant to the process. |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: March 07 2012 at 14:21
| Thanks, yes it does help. |
Posted By: Rendref
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 03:18
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How about creating genres per album, like it happens on "metalmusicarchives.com"? It's really obvious that almost every band, especially with long history, played in different genres. For example, Pink Floyd: first four albums are definitely Psychedelic/Space Rock, but take "Division Bell" - where the hell is Psychedelic/Space Rock? It's more Crossover Prog. Take discography of Porcupine Tree. Firstly - Psychedelic/Space Rock, then - some mix of Progressive Metal and Heavy Prog, but still with Wilson dark/depression atmosphere. After "Fear of the Blank Planet" it's music again more some kind of depressive/atmosphere prog. Haken and Rush also counts for Heavy Prog. So if I make a Heavy Prog to listen list, I found in top there "The Sky Moves Sideways" - and did this how exactly happened? This album is so Psychedelic/Space Rock, it has almost nothing to do with Heavy Prog genre. Another word fo "dark depressive/atmosphere prog". There are plenty of bands, that play such a music. I suppose this "dark atmosphere" (sometimes just boring atmosphere, like late Marillion) has nothing to do with genre? Because I found such band in different genres: Porcupine Tree in Heavy Prog, Gazpacho - Crossover (and Mike Oldfield is Crossover, and Gungfly is Crossover? Gungfly is so joyful, that putting bands like Gazpacho to Crossover make me ask questions), Marillion - Neo-Prog (I absolutely love IQ version of Neo-Prog, but Marillion plays "atmosphere prog" - dark, light, space atmosphere, don't know, it's just not Neo-prog), etc, etc. I suggest to list subgenres per album, not per artist. It will be more clearly on what music to expect from the albums. Well, I don't wait creation of "dark depressive atmosphere prog" genre, it will be to much :). But this type of music is obviously exists and I think that for more clearly description of music it should be somehow written. I don't know, maybe just Space Rock? Or maybe some kind of post music. I don't know. And in Symphonic Prog band there is a lot of sh*ty AOR albums. Well, why not create AOR genre? Or some kind of sub-note in genre, just to know, and to see, that some albums are not Symphonic Prog albums, but AOR, New Age or other genres albums. These subgenres are not even needed to be put on top of the sites, in the "genre listing". May they exits in a way of sub-notes on albums pages. Did anyone made it trough this post? ))) ------------- http://www.normalisr.com/?username=Rendref&type=3month" rel="nofollow"> 
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