Genesis Duke makes me FURIOUS!
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Topic: Genesis Duke makes me FURIOUS!
Posted By: kirklott
Subject: Genesis Duke makes me FURIOUS!
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:32
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I'm listening to Three Sides Live and (unfortunately) happening upon the tracks from Duke. I HATE DUKE!!! It's making me SO ANGRY that I might get cross and make a mistake, like the man-eating rabbit in Monty Python and the Grail.
That was the end of Genesis. The only exception is the brilliant Duke's Travel's/Duke's End. Even the cover was utterly pathetic! Where's Paul Whitehead or Armando Gallo when you need them? ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:41
I like the cover, its quirkey and cute! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:47
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Please, my dear Snow Dog, your posts to date have always been intelligent and eloquent, the dignified work of an elegant Old World gentleman from a lineage of centuries of impeccable breeding. If I may, I implore you to employ the edit mode on the above quote to safeguard your honor, respect and dignity. With sincere regards, kirklott ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Snow Dog wrote:Posted By: Soulman
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:52
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Posted By: Retrovertigo
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:56
| Drink plenty of water afterwards. |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:57
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Yeah, I need a pill that big to recover from Duke. ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: The Letter M
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:08
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"Well good news! It's a suppository!" - The Professor, Futurama.
:D Anyways, I happen to like Duke - well, more over, the bookending suites - Behind The Lines/Duchess/Guide Vocal and the Duke songs at the end. Better material on Duke than Abacab, so by comparison, IMO, it's a good album. Where as Duke has about 5-6 really good tracks, Abacab has about 3, and 2 more which were B-Side instrumentals. Not bad albums, IMO, just not what a lot of people wanted after Hackett left. -Marc. ------------- I know what I like and I like what I know. I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will. If I die tomorrow, I`d be alright because I believe that after we`re gone, the spirit carries on. |
Posted By: Retrovertigo
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:11
I'm not kidding, I was just about to use that quote. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:20
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I like the beginning and ending suites too. Actually though I love the song Heathaze. Always struck a chord for me. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:24
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well, takes a deep breath ... I quite like Duke (runs to take cover) ------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:34
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OK, Man of Our Times is pretty good (in addition to the end suite) But I will yield no further concessions. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bellcommunity.com/images/Stubborn%2520Horse-reduced.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bellcommunity.com/peter_butz_equine_dentist.htm&h=233&w=245&sz=19&tbnid=W-JcRFs7nsUJ:&tbnh=99&tbnw=105&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstubborn%26svnum%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-34,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN"> ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:35
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Just for you Kirklott:
I'm going to hide away now... ------------- 
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Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:39
MINE EYES - ARRGGHH!
------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 22:59
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Heh -- good to see people not talking themselves too seriously.
I like Duke, but it's not up to snuff compared with Genesis' earlier material. Beats the heck out of anything that followed, however. |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 23:19
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Duke! I love Duke! My favorite album of the 1980's. The Duke Suite is fantastic, start to finish. ------------- 
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Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 23:25
Please Don't Ask - ARGGHHH! I forgot about that song!!! That's even worse than any Trevor Rabin love song! Must...remain calm...take medication...deep breaths...think happy thoughts...Close to the Edge...Brain Salad Surgery...Seconds Out....ah, I'm feeling better... ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 00:15
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Its not that bad...not that good, but not that bad. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: nousommedusolei
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 01:44
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Basically, everything after "Wind and Wuthering" (which had its good parts and its cheesy, intolerable parts) made me want to rip my hair out. When Hackett left, the fecal matter hit the fan. ------------- I don't believe in demons I don't believe in devils I only believe in you |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 02:49
| Most of Duke I like.Man Of Our Times is seriously good as is Behind The Lines,Duchess,Dukes Travels and Duke's End.Lots of good stuff ,enough to be a 3-4 star prog album.Interestingly the concept of the album fits in with Genesis changing attitudes to music.They had started to go a bit more 'commercial' and the mood of the record indicates the future direction.If you listen to the lyrics its really about the end of Genesis as a prog band.They more or less divorced themselves from prog on the albums that followed.But Duke is still decent. |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 03:40
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hey, kirklott, if we can cordially agree to disagree about italian vocals & prog in that other thread ... then maybe we can shake hands on this one. eh? That's what good friends do ... what d'you say old chap?
btw I couldn't help noticing your penchant for ... skulls ...
------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
. Actually I rather enjoyed the one with the rabbit. Is it yours? ... the rabbit, I mean .. not the ... oh, never mind .Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 03:55
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Got my start on the poppy side of Genesis....fell in love with Abacab/Duke/Three Sides.. as an impressionable early teen. Fell out of love with the poppier side of Genesis as my musical tastes grew, but, even if I haven't pulled any post-Wind Genesis off of the shelf for a loooong while, I still "like" the albums and respect their decision to branch out and away from their signature classic era sound. And, yeah, I LIKE Misunderstanding....I also like the LP cover...... Blasphemy! ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: dalt99
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 04:02
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Wow. Well, I have never bought Duke and have yet to hear it. I was surely not going to buy it after Kirklott's rantings but with all the good reviews (a few anyway) I just may have to buy it now! Uh...thanks...Kirklott...?
------------- Best of 2006 that I've heard: PFM-Stati Di Immaginazione Zenit-Surrender (Best "unknown" album) Oaksenham - Conquest of Pacific 2007: Phideaux - Doomsday Afternoon La Torre Del Alchimista - Neo |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 04:19
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Tony the Tiger & Feeeelona agree that Misunderstanding is grrrrrr-eat ... puurrrrrrr-miaow
------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 06:15
Wot? Are there 2 Snow Dogs on this site then?! ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 06:19
Its worth hearing... like most on this thread, I think the 'Bookend' pieces are very good.. and you can presently buy it on Amazon , new, for only Ģ4.40! Wow! ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 07:43
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Well, I love Duke. Fantastic album. Very complex rhythm patterns on the Duke suite, lots of great compositions. Lots of emotional highs. Great percussion on Duchess. Nothing wrong with it. Absolutely nothing. |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 07:48
yay!!! Big slap on the back for Moogie!!!!! ------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:23
Now I see it again Captain Kirklott I would say wow, it is a great cover! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:25
I think he describes me perfectly! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:29
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I liked Duke, in fact, I even liked Invisible Touch. *puts on flame-retardant suit* ------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:43
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Kirklott ...are you still there? You've gone very quiet all of a sudden ... Having second thoughts about Duke yet?
------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
Posted By: Flyingbebert
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 09:00
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"Duke" could have been one of the greatest Genesis album if there weren't songs like "heathaze" or "please don't ask", "alone tonight", and the stupid arrangements on "turn it on again" make it sound too poppy (it could have been a great song, the live version in "three side live" is better). Half of the album is very good : "behind the lines", "duchess", "man of our times", "cul de sac" It could have been a concept album with a good story. But the aim of the group at that time was to begin to sell out ! And it got worse after that. |
, and the end of course "duke's travels/duke's end"Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 11:09
Well, here's my tip: if you want to get the only good track from Duke, which is Duke's Travels Duke' End, get the Genesis Archive 2, which you can find for as low as $10 on ebay. Because you'll also get these tasty b-sides and live versions, a few of which feature Hackett and Bruford: CD ONE 3. You Might Recall ( CD TWO: 72:42 CD THREE: 69:37
------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 11:10
Alright, well that's half the album. That's like saying this would have been a lovely meal, if half the plate hadn't been covered with sh*te. ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 11:14
Dear Felona, My friend, gentleman, scholar: I am in the Rocky Mountains USA - a different hemisphere and ergo a different time zone. I have just arisen from a long night's slumber: refreshed and rivatlized from a deep repose, ready to once again defend my position, and assault/attack if necessary. http://www.navajowarrior.com/index1.html"> ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 11:33
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I have ton agree with Kirkklott, Duke makes me sick. I accept it's slightly better than ATTW3 but that doesn't mean a thing because both are bad. No Gabriel and Hackett......No Genesis Ivān ------------- 
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Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 11:37
Finally, a voice of reason in a wilderness of lunacy! Ivan, mi hermano! Do you listen to Citizen Cain ( http://www.citizen-cain.com - www.citizen-cain.com ) and The Watch ( http://www.thewatch.it - www.thewatch.it )? ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 11:46
Hey, wasn't he the guy from KISS? Glad you had a good ZZZZzzz ... I am off to bed now cos its getting very late in my little corner of the world. Look forward to some jesting with you again soon Mr Navajo Warrior! ------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
Posted By: bertburt
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 12:08
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Always been a tie for first for me (most hideous Genesis line) 1. Ballad of Big -"Big and his men were jumped by an all-star Indian tribe"...What the...? 2. Please Don't Ask - "Oh, you lost some weight I can see, your hair looks nice, you look good"
So, essentially, two things commonly come to mind for me with Duke....the horrendous 'weight' line, and how Duke can twist his left hand around like that on the cover (guess it's easy, I'm just too brittle for the slightest contortion) |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 12:09
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Well, as counter-intuitive as this may seem, I think Invisible Touch was the best (read: least bad) Genesis album after ...And There Were Three. I mean, it had four horrible songs, but four that were ok or actually good: Tonight Tonight Tonight, Domino, Land of Confusion, and the Brazilian. ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 12:10
*reaches for the anti-depressants* ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 12:15
Just to clarify, I require only 90 minutes of (light) repose per 24 hour period. I can run 75 miles or more without rest, survive extreme temperatures, require minimal sustenance, and derive all necessary moisture through reclamation from my own respiration. ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 15:12
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Heh, I feel like I'm the only one here who actually likes Phil
Collins's solo stuff. Don't get me wrong though - Yes' CTTE is my
favourite album - but I do like a little bit of pop from time to time,
no matter how shameful it may be.
------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 15:46
Please give "Heathaze" another chance. Maybe you'll see that it recaptures some of the magic of the Hackett era and that it's a criminally underrated Genesis classic - just like "Evidence of Autumn", which is also extremely beautiful. 
No, it's without Hackett. It was recorded with Stuermer in May 1980. Nevertheless this recording is one of the very best prog moments I know. This live song is really stunning. I never liked the composition when the "ATOTT" version was the only one I knew. But this passionate live performance brings it to life. The guitars, the improved melody, the highly dramatic curve and Collins at his very best and most emotional (he even gives the great Steve Walsh a run for his money), everything is wonderful: melodic prog at its peak. My opinion about "Duke" as a whole? Good but not great. A mixed bag. Both the powerful songwriting skills on "ATTWT" and the cold roughness of "Abacab" are more interesting to my ears than this transitional album. Behind the Lines --- 5/10 (great intro, lame verse and chorus) Duchess --- 5/10 (okay but nothing special) Guide Vocal --- 8/10 Man of our Times --- 3/10 (one of their worst) Misunderstanding --- 4/10 (...) Heathaze --- 8/10 Turn it on Again --- 5/10 Alone Tonight --- 5/10 Cul-de-Sac --- 6/10 Please don't Ask --- 7/10 (a pretty good ballad actually) Duke's Travels --- 8/10 Duke's End --- 8/10 ------------- You house proud town mouse ha ha, charade you are |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 16:32
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You're right.
Listening to Phil Collins is beneath what Pee Herman was doing when he was arrested in a Florida movie theater. If you want a pleasant alternative to prog, may I suggest The James Taylor Quartet? (not that James Taylor!) This one lives in London, shaves his head, and keeps a bottle of vodka on top of his Hammond organ at all time. His music ranges from jazz to funk to soundtrack to mild techno, and all points in between. Great stuff. http://www.jtq.co.uk - www.jtq.co.uk
------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 16:36
No, he's not.   ------------- You house proud town mouse ha ha, charade you are |
Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 16:42
Heh, so I'm not alone after all *puts on "No Jacket Required" vinyl* ------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 16:53
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'Duke' is half a decent album, with the first side, excluding the dire 'Misunderstanding', all being decent AOR, yet the second half is shakier, with only the excellent 'Cul De Sac' and 'Duke's Travels/ Duke's End' being in any way identifiable as Genesis. Maybe it's because I'm a fan of this sort of AOR but I think 'Duke' isn't terribly bad. If you're looking for prog rock though, I agree that 'Duke' doesn't deliver on that front at all. And if you think 'Duke' is duff, check out 'Abacab'; had several of Genesis' worst ever songs, like 'Who Dunnit?', 'Man On The Corner' and 'Another Record'. |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 16:59
... but also some stormers like "Abacab", "Me and Sarah Jane", "Keep it Dark", "Dodo|Lurker" and "Like it or Not". 
(Yeah, I know, in a few seconds time somebody will throw flames like: "Stormers???? ") ------------- You house proud town mouse ha ha, charade you are |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:02
| The songs you mention, Miaugion, are fairly decent, I have to say. But every one sounded great live and better than the more restrained versions on 'Abacab'. 'Keep It Dark' I especially liked as an AOR song, and 'Abacab' developed into a full-on prog out on the live versions I've heard. |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:02
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I don't like Duke either. The only song I liked was Turn It On Agaain. That's the only post-Hackett Genesis song I like. I can't take the rest. |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:13
I completely agree.  Yes, the album versions may be a bit too dry and uneventful compared to the live versions. Especially "Dodo|Lurker" gains power, mood and darkness in a live situation (=> "Three Sides Live" version). ------------- You house proud town mouse ha ha, charade you are |
Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:18
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I hate to sort of Hijack this thread, but since we're on the subject of
Genesis, did anyone like the album We Can't Dance? I actually really
liked it - Driving The Last Spike was a great song, and Fading Lights
was about as close to their prog rock roots that they ever got since
Duke. It's probably my favourite later Genesis album, although I did
like Duke, Abacab and Invisible Touch a lot. I agree that a lot of the
songs sound much better and much more prog live, too. Ah, don't listen to me, I like Asia and The Buggles ------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:47
Although I'm one of the few who are fond of the Collins years and think that Genesis recorded their best (read: most timeless) music with Collins at the helm ("A Trick of the Tail", "Wind & Wuthering" plus the best of "ATTWT" plus "Heathaze" and "Evidence of Autumn") I think "We can't Dance" is enjoyable - but not much more, unfortunately. My second least favourite album of the whole bunch (least favourite: "Genesis [Shapes]") IMO some songs are just nerve-racking on repeated listens. "We can't Dance" could be a pretty good swan song though, e.g. if the track list read as follows: 01 No Son of Mine 02 Driving the Last Spike 03 On the Shoreline (b-side) 04 Dreaming while you Sleep 05 Do the Neurotic (jazzy "Invisible Touch" outtake, b-side) 06 Living Forever 07 Hold on my Heart (yes, it's sexy )
08 Fading Lights Of course I agree that "Fading Lights" is brilliant.  They should have called it "Ripples Part II" as that is what it is, basically. I just love it and love the fact that they shut the door with such a mighty melancholy epic when they left the building (not counting CAS, of course ). ------------- You house proud town mouse ha ha, charade you are |
Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:53
I actually quite liked Jesus He Knows Me (although admittedly it's hardly the most exciting song in the world) and Way of the World, but the latter mostly for the lyrics. Fading Lights is a classic song, though. I like Never A Time and I Can't Dance because they have that sort of cheesy quality to them, too. I though Fading Lights was a great way for Genesis to go out - well, I've not heard CAS yet. Is that a decent album? ------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: Miaugion
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 18:22
It's a dark, brooding, melancholy and (in parts) passionate album with some complex and energetic instrumental parts and very few fillers, musically dominated by Banks and Ray Wilson's voice. Most of the compositions are quality and Wilson really tries to do his best. It doesn't sound like any other album they did but it's still typically Genesis (thanks to Tony Banks). I'd say most of the songs are more interesting and original than 90 % of all the neo prog songs out there but I could never accept the album as a part of the Genesis history. The shadows of their great past are just too long. (That's why I love "Fading Lights" as their swan song. Sorry, if the formulation was not clear enough.) But maybe you should give it a spin or two as it's by no means a musical dud. (Personal highlights: "Calling all Stations", "Alien Afternoon", "The Dividing Line", "Uncertain Weather", "There must be some other Way" and "One Man's Fool". How some reviewers can give these tracks a 1-star-rating is beyond me ... ) ------------- You house proud town mouse ha ha, charade you are |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 19:45
(Coughs loudly) Erm, you're quite strong for a female, you know that It's a GREAT album. Period. No, exclamation mark! |
Posted By: Salmacis72
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 20:31
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Personally, I think it's the best album they made without Hackett. And those of you knocking "Heathaze" - man, that is as Banks as it gets! LOVE that song! Rutherford sounds amazing on Duke. And what a spine-tingling moment at the end of "Duke's Travels" with the "Guide Vocal" reprise! One of the all time great Genesis moments. I actually burned myself an alternate Duke, swapping out "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" and swapping in "Evidence Of Autumn" and "Open Door". As for "Please Don't Ask", that is a gorgeous song. NP: Echolyn "Mei" ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 21:12
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Please be serious everybody knows Genesis died the day Steve Hackett left. Somebody said Duke is good AOR, maybe, thanks God I always hated AOR. Ivān -------------
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 02:01
Duke is not AOR. It's a very original album. Not only because of the first 3 tracks and the last 2, but also because of songs like Heathaze, Man Of Our Times and Cul - De - Sac. Maybe Turn It On Again, Please Don't Ask and Misunderstanding are a bit AOR, but still not bad tracks and they work within the context of the album. The "Duke Suite" is Genesis at it's most progressive! It's innovative stuff, and emoyionally very touching. |
Posted By: felona
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 02:11
yeah, I'm stronger than I look. Didn't you know I am a polish bearded female athlete posing as Steve Hackett? Your support is much appreciated ... and will not be forgotten ------------- I was never really sure what I was waiting for. When the moment came I was looking away ...... The Church "After Everything Now This" |
Posted By: ldlanberg
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 21:33
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Duke makes you angry. Duke makes me feel good! For me its the perfect mix of driving rock and brilliant progressive sounds. I find the best examples of Phil's fluency on the drums to be on this one album. If any Genesis album speaks best of Phil's talents, this would be the one. And I think Mike puts Greg Lake to shame with his seamless maneuverings on both guitar and bass.
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Posted By: Flyingbebert
Date Posted: June 27 2005 at 17:18
The difference is that you can skip the sh*t thanks to your CD-player, so you can keep a good impression of the album ! |