Joni Mitchell for Fusion or Crossover
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79015
Printed Date: March 04 2025 at 02:28
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Joni Mitchell for Fusion or Crossover
Posted By: Svetonio
Subject: Joni Mitchell for Fusion or Crossover
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 03:32
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Joni Mitchell did do alot of nice fusion stuff and colaborated with many great jazz artists as for example Jaco Pastorius, Pat Metheny, etc.
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Replies:
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 03:42
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http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43043&KW=joni+mitchel&PID=2675607#2675607" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43043&KW=joni+mitchel&PID=2675607#2675607 |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 03:56
"Only members with sufficient permission can access this page" Must be some big secret...
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Bonnek wrote:Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 05:21
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Oh I hadn't checked the forum origin, no secrets anyway, just a 4 year old discussion explaining she would be no fit for prog folk nor jazz rock |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 05:53
Bottom line seems to be that if you are well known and your body of music doesn't neatly fit in to a particular subgenre, it's like pulling teeth to get in. Crossover then?  |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 06:22
For me (the guy from another corner of the world), Joni Mitchell always was a part of that U.S. Prog (Joni as the subgenre per se).
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 06:41
Actually, I threw out the Crossover suggestion only partially joking. That run of albums she did from Court And Spark to Mingus are the ones I'd put forward. Possibly Dog Eat Dog and Chalk Mark In A Rainstorm also. I don't care so much for the earlier stuff. I'd be surprised if this hasn't come up with the team already.
Oh yeah, I actually started that one in 2007 and it didn't gain any momentum. Fizzled rather quickly. There are a couple of access by collaborators only sections in the forums. Let's see if this one garners any more attention in the open forums. Oh, keep an eye out for this thread to get moved as she isn't really new.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 07:02
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If you are interested, Joni is already on the jazz site, in fact there is a nice review of one of her albums on the front page.
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com" rel="nofollow - www.jazzmusicarchives.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 07:30
Thanks for the tip. I haven't visited the site yet. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 07:44
Slart, have you ever made the case for PR, based on the albums from Hissing through Mingus? Could be worth a shot. 
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: sl75
Date Posted: April 18 2013 at 20:34
| May not make music that most people would call 'prog', but absolutely a progressive artist in the broadest sense of the word. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 08:13
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 12:36
Yes it does. Prog is short for progressive, or it certainly used to be when I was at school, and listened to the stuff in the old days. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 13:26
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Look at my last.fm sig - Joni is one of my favorite artists out there. I'd have a hard time justifying her being on PA though. Prog Related perhaps, due to her collabs with Jaco and Mingus and Metheny and the like, but it'd be a slim shot. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 13:31
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Let's 'see : Steely dan is in PA and their jazz-pop is in the same vein as some Joni albums of the seventies. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 02:19
IMHO both acts are genres in themselfs, long established and accepted by progresive rock audience, both are magnificient examples of the best of American progressive rock what have nothing in common with English progressive rock movement in late '60s - early '70s, but I could not suggested Mrs. Mitchell for "American Prog" because it does not exist as a PA genre as RPI as well. So, I suggested Mrs. Mitchell for Fusion or Crossover because, if I remember well, Steely Dan is already in Crossover.
BTW, I don't think that PR is a good idea; IMHO, Mrs. Mitchell would be in full prog category - Jazz Rock/ Fusion or Crossover; PR would be a perfect section for i.e. Steve Miller Band, or some other American act like that.
Just my opinion, of course.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 05:08
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^ Steely Dan is in Jazz-Rock/Fusion, not Crossover.
Folk-Jazz is not Jazz-Rock/Fusion (just as Jazz-Pop is not Jazz-Rock/Fusion) and it isn't Prog-Folk (just as Folk-Rock is not Prog-Folk). The addition of Mitchell into any Prog subgenre would be stretching the definitions of those genres beyond breaking-point. There is a line past which being inclusive becomes too inclusive. Mitchell is way beyond that line. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 05:30
Then I only wonder why Pentangle and Bert Jansch are here. 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 05:31
I think he is saying that "Progressive Music" is not the same as "Progressive Rock" and Prog is short for the latter. So progressive music is not neccesarily "Prog" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 06:10
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 06:39
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 06:42
------------- What? |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 07:35
I presume that the Steely Dan was "way beyond that line" also
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 07:48
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 13:37
------------- What? |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 22:16
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 03:06
------------- What? |
Posted By: sl75
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 08:59
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Yes it is No it isn't Yes it is No it isn't Yes it is No it isn't I'm beginning to regret my role in re-awakening this thread
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 09:06
^ 
------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: sl75
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 06:42
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Noting that Shelagh McDonald (who was heavily influenced by early Joni) is here, can someone explain to me what qualities make Shelah McDonald a prog folk artist, and how those qualities are absent from Joni's music? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 10:34
I refer the honourable gentleman to his last post of 21 April 2013, in which he expressed regret at reopening this thread. In particular, he might wish to reacquaint himself with the meaning of Groundhog Day. However, to answer the question, it is because the specialists on the site do not regard her as being so. I love Joni Mitchell's music, and have a fair bit of it. She is, though, as prog folk as my dog's anus. I love my dog very much as well, but prog she ain't. I would drop this. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 12:57
| If most of her albums had a similar musical approach as Hejira and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter (+ Hissing of the Summer Lawns - to some extent) there shouldn't be any reason not to support Joni's inclusion for jazz-rock fusion. But I guess as with many bands and artists already included here, she doesn't really fit - most of the time. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 13:07
Congratulation to you and the level of prog-folkyness of your dog's anus! Even if its anus isn't 100 % prog folk, I'm still impressed.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 14:18
Lizzy sends you woofs and licks. You have a friend for life  I would, though, generally stay away from said anus. Not a pretty sight........ ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: sl75
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 18:25
I guess I thought this time around there might be some reasoned discussion with intelligent use of musical examples. Silly me, I should have known I'd get canine anatomy instead. I ultimately don't care if Joni is here or not, I've got plenty of other places to celebrate her music, and other artists I can think of whose exclusion here seems more shocking to me. It's more trying to understand what definitions are being applied. Both times I've come to this thread, it's because of finding another artist on here whose music is similar to (at least one period of) Joni, and not to my ears any more Prog-like, and wondering why X is accepted but Y is not. (This time the case in point in Shelagh McDonald, who I've just begun to love, but whose apparently easy acceptance here as prog-folk genuinely perplexes me when the comparisons I hear are mostly Joni, mixed with a bit of Judy Collins, Nick Drake and Sandy Denny/Fotheringay - nothing like Spirogyra or Trees. What am I missing?) |
Posted By: sl75
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 18:28
If it's the general feeling that the site has erred on the side of being too inclusive in the past, the correct solution would be to do a big cull. Otherwise, your forums are going to be forever jammed with people arguing that if X is here, why not Y? |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 06 2016 at 02:54
If PA does that a lot of valuable info/work/reviews will get lost - which would be unfair to everyone who has invested time and thought into it. Firstly I think the best would be to look at the Prog-Related section more literally. Its only related to prog (except Vangelis who is full blown) and any artist you'll find there is never an argument for inclusion of others. You will have to do better. -Also in this case if you dig up an obscure artist such as our Scottish Shelagh McDonald and her two 70's folk albums. Both obviously inspired by a small section of the works of the international star with a 50 year long career in question: Joni Mitchell. This isn't nessecarely a valid argument for the inclusion of the latter artist. If it were we would have Sun Ra here because of Gong, Karlheinz Stockahausen because of Can and Kraftwerk, Bela Bartok because of all R.I.O etc... Shelaugh, unlike Joni in her folk-period had an all-star UK-folksters backing band (on Stargazer which is the album I own) who lifts about a handful of her songs into more ambitious compositions. Not by using complex time signatures - most prog-folk isn't about that anyway. But in a patiently building, mini-epic kind of day that you can hear in Dowie Dens Of Yarrow, Odyssey, Stargazer and The Road to Paradise in particular. When Joni starts experimenting with her arrangements she has already moved on from folk to jazz-pop/vocal jazz. Also just accept that PA exist because some folks are willing to do a lot of work here for free (I don't, I'm just a parasite like most of us). Sometimes small "mistakes" happen and suddenly some overblown metal act with an occasional pseudo-classical synth-fanfare slips in. Also opinions differ in between the group that does all this free work for us and that's another reason the X and Y argument doesn't do the trick. |