Try to get your Jazz Hipster friend into Death. They're basically a jazz band that uses metal aesthetics when you get to their later albums.

Also does your hipster friend like The Mountain Goats? If not get him into them. They're an "indie-folk" group, but death and black metal are among their biggest influences. 

These things depend on every listener's prism.  Jampa, a member of this website, is a big metal fan and doesn't like jazz because it sounds lacking in energy to him.  There are always two sides of the coin. Though The T likes both classical and metal, I would not be surprised that people heavily into jazz and classical don't like metal.  It is not lacking in emotion in the objective sense but it's not as subtle as those two forms of music. How much of subtlety is desirable and how much of energy and plain rock and roll a**-kicking heaviness is all a matter of taste. I don't think it is possible to make people come around to polar opposite perspectives as a general rule.  Also, metalheads have the habit of saying extremely ignorant things about non metal music, in my experience. Listeners of any genre go around with some or other strong prejudices but metalheads have that "don't give a f***" attitude and are more outspoken about it.  I have seen metalheads dub anything that's melodic as pop sellout or 'safe', which is plainly ignorant. Possibly, your friends have had bad experiences with metal listeners and are reacting more to that and dislike the music more on account of the fanbase. Not too fair on the music but a common tendency and nothing can be done about.  

 With that said, I do have a problem with pacing in prog metal.  It's not that there are too many notes but there are not enough pauses or moments of impasse or slowing down to effectively build and articulate musical drama. It is generally a bit breathless. I find it easier to listen to prog metal on a song by song basis rather than a whole album because a whole album becomes a fatiguing affair.  On the other hand, bands which attempt to pace it evenly get too predictable and too slow.  It also seems to be tougher to modulate heavy distorted riffs with the same tones as you could with chord progressions played on maybe a keyboard. So things either happen too fast or too slowly.  You have to really like the adrenalin rush of locked in, heavy metal playing to dig prog metal.  

Another point is, prog rock always had a metal perspective within a larger umbrella of elements and influences. The track Red of KC or the last two minutes of Return of the Giant Hogweed, the riffs of Schizoid are just a few examples.  So, constructing prog entirely around a metal perspective for album lengths seems a bit limiting to me...why not explore other dimensions of rock music too overall, why just metal?  

In short, as a metal fan, I will always like some prog metal bands and their albums but not as much as prog classics like Red, SEBTP, DSOTM, CTTE and several others.  It is, needless to say, close minded to dismiss all prog metal music as worthless because a lot of it is worthy and can give a lot of enjoyment to the listener but there are also some aspects of it that I am not completely satisfied with. 

 

I actualy meant Musical Box , but my head is fooling me

It is very much possible to be progressive in a metal context as the prog rock bands themselves showed back in the day. But the problem is, a lot of prog metal comes with the baggage that metal is all over the top, lofty, pretentious nonsense and prog metal is the intellectual, studied alternative. Except, here I am going to sound like a punkhead and say I don't really need the intellectual alternative because I love the uninhibited release of energy and aggression that goes with metal. It is not very out there musically, at least not any more, but always fun to listen to.  It is the compromise that prog metal tries to strike that makes me qualify my praise for them.  If you want to be challenging and daring, go the whole hog and let go of distortion every now and then.  Trying to marry heaviness with progressiveness is not something that can really be stretched out over several albums as a formula.

 

I agree with you completely!

 

However, I suspect that this is a (not so) subtle sniping remark about a comment I made in a different thread.

 

But please let me clarify.  The title of the thread is Your opinion on Prog Metal. 

 

The points I give in my posting are completely on-topic.  They are my opinion - not objective universal truths.  Yes Prog does and should embrace a very wide range of musical styles (and thank God for that).  Prog Metal is one of my least favourite prog genres.  I state this as a personal opinion and was invited to do so by the creator of this thread.

 

A broad church should allow for a broad range of opinions; please allow me mine.

Sorry. Cheap shot easily taken, but in response to the 'a pig painted gold is still a pig' comment I felt it justified.

 

However, I have made no comment regarding your right to make comment or voice your personal opinion here or anywhere else - you are free to equate Metal with a pig, they are both much maligned animals. 

Because the trillions of Dream Theater knock-offs pollute the air, because the other instruments usually take a backseat to the electric guitar and vocalist, because the entire metal paradigm is one that eschews half the human emotional palette, because they tend to swarm to metal due to their lack of abilities when it comes to writing eminently memorable melodies, because half the genre is built around impressing rather than affecting or impacting, because most metal has nothing to do with subtlety, because distortion can mask inferior playing abilities, because people involved with it tend to care more about image and style rather than sheer musical qualities, because the genre lacks a distinct edge for experimentation, because it's typically so damn derivative and unoriginal. Just look at those trillions upon trillions of Iron Maiden albums and Iron Maiden ripoffs releasing the same long, droning, unoriginal tripe year after year, because it propagates this new silly loudness war, because it's often based only on wh can play faster or louder or whatever, because people associated with the genre seem to typically take flash over substance, because it tends to be lyrically banal and adolescent.

There's a nice list of easily discernible reasons. Note: none of these are intended to be generalizations. This also isn't directed toward post metal, or bands such as Pain of Salvation or Devin Townsend. This list doesn't regard ALL prog metal, just the majority, so don't jump with your inane defenses thinking I've gone and done something ugly and erroneous to deface your oh-so-holy genre and forgotten X such and such group or Y such and such group that totally obliterates my preconceived notions of the genre. It don't work like that, Mack. And remember, this is coming from a guy who used to utterly worship heavy metal, progressive or otherwise.

Or else i get bored really quickly.

I'm not a fan of rock at all. Anything that has to be heavier than soft folk is pointless and done because of a fad imo.

 

Good for you. As for metal, screaming/growling vocals only bring music down.

Since when did all metal vocals constitute screaming and growling? Does this mean Geoff Tate is a figment of my imagination?

 

Who's that?

 

70s prog is meaner than any metal anyway. Heavy bass craps on guitar riffs

 

Meaner? Don't tell me you think Rush is 'meaner' than Slayer. :P 

You're a f**king silly person. I don't particularly care for any one sound. It's the melodies that I care for. I hate heavy rock MORE than metal, because it's the same damn thing, only less forceful in general. 

 

Metal doesn't have melody, it never did. Lots of prog gives me shivers because of the way they merge rock with jazz and classical music. The busy and catchy ideas and the sound and instruments they use absolutely smash metal to pieces. Metal doesnt put a single shiver down my spine. It makes me laugh. The compositions are weak, it's all about how loud and fast they be. American based crap

So all those vocal hooks and NOTES BEING PLAYED in all those Pain of Salvation songs aren't real? Why aren't those CLASSIFIED MELODIES, melodies? I mean, isn't a melody a pattern of notes? These songs have patterns of notes, therefore either your logic is inane, a completely ignorant hallucination, or you're trolling. I have faith in you and immediately assume the latter. 

That being said, if you are a troll, I've seen better. I used to troll these hallowed halls with the best of 'em. :P

 

he sings great. Growling is a terrible fad which has lasted 25 years

I know, which is said I wasn't attempting to generalize. If a band isn't shred, it isn't. I personally adore Ayreon and Queensryche and Savatage and Atheist and Death and Metallica and Pain of Salvation and Devin Townsend and Cynic and Opeth and maudlin of the Well and Alice in Chains and Judas Priest and Rainbow (only with Dio) and blah blah blah. I'm not trying to speak blindly.

 

you'll probably notice most of these people are either angry or depressed too lol

I was under the impression that every single human being gets mad or sad, sometimes. Don't you watch Ni-Hao, Kai-Lan?

 

omg, 50,000 albums in here go crazy..