American Prog
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76208
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Topic: American Prog
Posted By: 42ndAGE
Subject: American Prog
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 20:38
I just happened upon a review of Styx and the writer sais basicaly that American just can't do Prog. While I agree with his assesment of Styx to an extent (I consider them Prog-lite), what about Spock's Beard, Glass Hammer, Dream Theater, Echolyn, Enchant, Cairo, Shadow Gallery, etc.. Any thoughts?
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Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 21:04
the U.S. not only has great prog bands - the ones you mentioned plus oldies like Yezda Urfa, Cartoon, Happy the Man, P e n t w a t e r, Underground Railroad, Cathedral, Hands, and great new acts as Eccentric Orbit, Zombi, tons of others - but IMO was the first country to offer rock of a progressive nature, e.g. the Beach Boys or Zappa
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 22:24
If you're referring to older bands, I think you'd have to add Santana into the coversation. Abraxas and Santana III, the albums that preceded Caravanserai (when they forayed into jazz-fusion), are very progressive, albeit from a Latin persepective.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 23:52
Yezda Urfa is one of my favourite bands of all time, and bands like Cathedral and Hands are awesome. I've never been a fan of Kansas, Styx, and even though they're Canadian, Rush. America can do prog, but the popular bands can't.
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Posted By: treebeard
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 02:14
Don't forget Phideaux !!
The best prog band from the US period!
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 03:05
A couple of pointers here. let's not simply make this a list of American prog bands (whether it be the USA or the American continents). Lets have some discussion amout the merits or otherwise of the point made. Also, please bear in mind this is a discussion about music.
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 03:26
I think the issue here is that American's can't seem to do Symphonic Prog,( with a few exceptions of course). Most of the attempts come off far to similar to cheesy AOR, such as Journey, Styx, Foreigner.
America specialises mostly Prog Metal and Jazz Rock/ Fusion, which it 'founded' so to speak, as Symphonic Prog was founded in the UK. I would say that different countries specialise in different genres according to where the genres were founded. The UK has never been amazing at Jazz Rock/ Fusion either, but this is not noticed as much as America and Symphonic Prog, because Jazz Rock/ Fusion is less popular on this site.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 03:51
actually I think UK jazzrock is some of the best, especially if you include people like McLaughlin, Phil Miller, Bruford, etc.
as for Symph, I think the Italians or Scandinavians take that prize
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 04:01
The Dixie Dregs are amongst the best of the lesser knowns. I think it
probably has something to do with the Dixie in the band name. What If
has some of the most intense prog instrumentals you will ever come
across. Any Mahavishnu Orchestra fans who haven't heard that album are depriving yourselves. Steve Morse and the guys were heavily influenced and did covers in the early days. And then freakin' Jerry Goodman wound up playing in one of the latter incarnations.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 06:04
This is something that periodically comes up and it always gets blown away. Anybody on this site could pull up a list of a few dozen American bands that are both prog and of a very high quality covering multiple sub genres. Comments like that, particularly when its regading bands like Styx, is just lazy reviewing and not worth bothering with.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 06:22
Americans can and do make good prog. I think it gets overwhelmed and overshadowed by pop and country music, which gets all the attention here in the states. America has become such an "instant gratification" society that prog doesn't get much attention since it requires some patience and time to actually listen to in order to get the payoff and enjoyment. Fortunately, that hasn't stopped musicians here from producing some excellent prog music. There are many fans here who love and support prog in the USA.
Just a couple of quick comments on bands, etc. I agree 100% with the bands listed, lets not forget Kansas in that list. Also, thanks Slarti for mentioning the Dixie Dregs. Any fan of instrumental prog should give them a listen, don't let the Dixie scare you off, this is not country music. Some of the greatest music I've ever heard.
Last, but not least, to Sleeper's point-many reviewers push aside prog in general and aren't worth paying attention to anyway.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 06:33
^In professional journalism, yes. Unfortunatly the OPdidnt say where he raid that review.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:26
Sorry that write is quite ignorant. Maybe old-school symphonic prog is not the strongest suit of the US (actually it has quite a few great bands) but other forms of progressive rock are being played and created here. In the world of metal, American bands are very important, and I'm not talking about traditional, heavy-speed based prog metal a la DT but post-metal and avant-garde metal...
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:36
No one has mentioned Steely Dan....
Well, they ain't no American Yes,
But Starcastle Is
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:41
Like most stereotypes, the idea that all Amercan prog is somehow substandard is utterly wrong.
I freely admit that prior to joining the site, I had not heard much from over the pond. Probably the only North American bands I took much notice of were Rush and Dream Theater.
Since joining, I have been introduced to the delights of Kansas, Echolyn, and Phideaux to name but a few, all of which are prime examples of the best in progressive rock.
I do not think much of Spock's Beard, I am afraid, although that is a personal taste thing, rather than a commentary on a band who can undoubtedly play and who are highly regarded by prog fans.
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:27
Americans can't do prog?
42ndAGE wrote:
Spock's Beard, Glass Hammer, Dream Theater, Echolyn, Enchant, Cairo, Shadow Gallery |
Solid examples, but not the first ones I'd go to, personally speaking....
Atavachron wrote:
Yezda Urfa, Cartoon, Happy the Man, P e n t w a t e r, Underground Railroad, Cathedral, Hands, and great new acts as Eccentric Orbit, Zombi |
Now we're talking!
The Dark Elf wrote:
If you're referring to older bands, I think you'd have to add Santana into the coversation. Abraxas and Santana III, the albums that preceded Caravanserai (when they forayed into jazz-fusion), are very progressive, albeit from a Latin persepective. |
I concur.
treebeard wrote:
Don't forget Phideaux !! The best prog band from the US period! |
Definitely one of them!
Slartibartfast wrote:
The Dixie Dregs are amongst the best of the lesser knowns. I think it probably has something to do with the Dixie in the band name. What If has some of the most intense prog instrumentals you will ever come across. Any Mahavishnu Orchestra fans who haven't heard that album are depriving yourselves. Steve Morse and the guys were heavily influenced and did covers in the early days. And then freakin' Jerry Goodman wound up playing in one of the latter incarnations.
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The Dregs, Kansas, Happy The Man and the first three albums by Utopia are the best examples not only of how well Americans could prog out, but add their own spin on existing schemes.
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 15:41
KansasFan165 wrote:
American Prog is for L.O.S.E.R's
Lovers Of Symphonic European Rock
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However, KF, I think that people who really do like Prog rock will agree that there isn't much which is up to standard with the European rock they love. Sorry, but I think Kansas is a subpar band. At least, I think you will agree, they are much weaker than any of the leading European bands (for example Yes, KC, Genesis or Pink Floyd). This matters because Kansas is always held as the top historic American prog band!
Phideaux is good, but he is a echo of prog glory, not a big earth shaking prog group. HIs albums have great stuff, though, better than Kansas, and I will agree with another's comments here that he is probably the best act in America doing Prog right now.
As for the rest, Rush is Canadian, as is Saga. There are good American plain rock bands though, of course. But were talking about real Prog right?
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 16:29
42ndAGE wrote:
I just happened upon a review of Styx and the writer sais basicaly that American just can't do Prog. While I agree with his assesment of Styx to an extent (I consider them Prog-lite), what about Spock's Beard, Glass Hammer, Dream Theater, Echolyn, Enchant, Cairo, Shadow Gallery, etc.. Any thoughts? |
America kinda started the whole progressive thing, except that London owned the whole world when America came around ... and they don't know music from advertising, or top ten! One should really go listen to some of the things out of California in 66, 67, 68 and 69 ... and then check out that one guy named Frank down south.
SF/LA/NY were massive in music, as were many others around the country, and they had just as much progressive music, and probably more, than London ... but Frank Zappa is not prog ... so a reviewer doing Styx, probably has no idea what progressive music is anyway, except having heard KC and Yes and Genesis, and maybe even ELP.
If you pay attention to stuff like that and can not discern "music" for yourself, and by yourself ... it won't matter if it is called "progressive" or "crap" ... you will always be susceptible to what everyone says!
For the record, if London invented it, America sustained it a heck of a lot better, with the exception that we keep trying to resuscitate the old behemoths that have died a long time ago ... ohh well, at least England has a mystical history and lots of magic running around ... so maybe they are onto something over there ... here, you know ... it's just injums going around ... they wouldn't know music from their dancing, or .... or maybe it's the color ... we're not sure yet!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 16:56
It's stupid to say "country X can't do Y". It's not as if everyone in the country composes from some mega-mind-meld or something. Sure, there might be slight differences, but it's silly to say America can't do prog.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 21:19
I'm listening to CHAOS CODE right now and man these guys are so good.And yes they're from the USA.
I think Rollie was just comparing England's prog scene with America's in the seventies.Not much of a comparison to be honest.But then what country could boast like England could in those days when it came to music. Germany,Italy,France,Canada,USA and on and on all had their bands, but the sheer volume and quality that came out of the UK is unmatched in my opinion.
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 21:23
The Dregs, Kansas, Happy The Man and the first three albums by Utopia are the best examples not only of how well Americans could prog out, but add their own spin on existing schemes. |
Happy the Man is an amazing band, my favorite American group crafty hands down :)
Mr.Bungle also deserves to be mentioned. They aren't for everyone, but a great group that has surely inspired people both in and out of the USA.
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Posted By: Mushroom Sword
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 21:27
Did anyone forget about
RUSH?
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Posted By: let prog reign
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 21:32
^ but they're Canadian aren't they? Well maybe he's referring to North America...
------------- Once upon a time there was some writing on the wall we all ignored, until the time that there was war and feasts of famine at our door
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Posted By: Mushroom Sword
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 21:54
Right. OP didn't say anything about strictly U.S.A.
And if we are talking about North America, we can also add The Mars Volta to that mix.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 22:43
Mushroom Sword wrote:
Right. OP didn't say anything about strictly U.S.A.
And if we are talking about North America, we can also add The Mars Volta to that mix.
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In which case he didn\t specify North America either and it could refer to the Americas (North, Central, and South America), in which case I'd suggest Bubu from Argentina; however, I expect the OP means Prog hailing from the United States of America.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 23:21
JS19 wrote:
I think the issue here is that American's can't seem to do Symphonic Prog,( with a few exceptions of course). Most of the attempts come off far to similar to cheesy AOR, such as Journey, Styx, Foreigner.
America specialises mostly Prog Metal and Jazz Rock/ Fusion, which it 'founded' so to speak, as Symphonic Prog was founded in the UK. I would say that different countries specialise in different genres according to where the genres were founded. The UK has never been amazing at Jazz Rock/ Fusion either, but this is not noticed as much as America and Symphonic Prog, because Jazz Rock/ Fusion is less popular on this site. |
This is exactly what Chicapah's brilliant review posited. He also went on to cite many brilliant US prog artists from a variety of sub genres, but noticed a deficit of top drawer Symph proggers. Read the review, it will be the best 10 minutes you spend of your day:
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=407120" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=407120
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 23:47
thanks Lem, I needed a good laugh .. "But as far as this disc goes, it stynx".
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 23:47
I'm not sure, but I think Frank Zappa was an American.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 01:12
ExittheLemming wrote:
JS19 wrote:
I think the issue here is that American's can't seem to do Symphonic Prog,( with a few exceptions of course). Most of the attempts come off far to similar to cheesy AOR, such as Journey, Styx, Foreigner.
America specialises mostly Prog Metal and Jazz Rock/ Fusion, which it 'founded' so to speak, as Symphonic Prog was founded in the UK. I would say that different countries specialise in different genres according to where the genres were founded. The UK has never been amazing at Jazz Rock/ Fusion either, but this is not noticed as much as America and Symphonic Prog, because Jazz Rock/ Fusion is less popular on this site. |
This is exactly what Chicapah's brilliant review posited. He also went on to cite many brilliant US prog artists from a variety of sub genres, but noticed a deficit of top drawer Symph proggers. Read the review, it will be the best 10 minutes you spend of your day:
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=407120" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=407120
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Yes, it seems as if the OP was referring to Chicapah's review, in which case Chicapah's review is quite perceptive and spot on. American prog at least in the 70s was usually better at the more jazz based kind of prog. There was a certain kind of classically influenced prog (being, NOT avant) that British prog rock bands were masters at, which the American bands couldn't approach. And sorry Kansas fans, that includes them as well though I can see why people would draw parallels between Kansas and say Genesis or Yes. As such, the British 'brand' of prog was uniquely theirs, a melting pot of jazz, classical, folk and rock of which the end result didn't lean too heavily towards one at the expense of the other. The best European (as in not British) prog from the 70s was heavily classical or jazz. I submit that, by and large, they didn't quite master the rock side of it as well as the British while America leaned heavily towards rock and roll and jazz.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 05:38
Chicapah's review is hilarious, but he puzzles me by putting symphonic prog at the top of the ladder of artistic achievement in rock music. America gave me (in chronological order) music that I find much, much more artistic and exquisite than symphonic prog, like Frank Zappa, the fusion of Miles, Hancock, Corea and Weather Report, the post/noise rock symphonies of Glenn Branca, the experimental laboratory of Tortoise and of Jim O'Rourke's bands, the otherwordly Kayo Dot and other Driver bands, the math-madness of Don Caballero, or the unclassifiable John Zorn...
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Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 07:00
I'm waiting for Walter to post here. I'm sure he would have some views about American "prog"
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Posted By: let prog reign
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 09:55
cstack3 wrote:
I'm not sure, but I think Frank Zappa was an American. | Why yes he was and probably the greatest of american artists.
------------- Once upon a time there was some writing on the wall we all ignored, until the time that there was war and feasts of famine at our door
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 19:53
Never heard Zappa except for a few stray listens because his music is not on subscription services.
What about Chicago? Lol.
Other Great Americans who remind me of prog (in no order):
Bob Dylan ***** Talking Heads *** Devo *** Steely Dan ***
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 20:18
RoyFairbank wrote:
KansasFan165 wrote:
American Prog is for L.O.S.E.R's
Lovers Of Symphonic European Rock
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However, KF, I think that people who really do like Prog rock will agree that there isn't much which is up to standard with the European rock they love. Sorry, but I think Kansas is a subpar band. At least, I think you will agree, they are much weaker than any of the leading European bands (for example Yes, KC, Genesis or Pink Floyd). This matters because Kansas is always held as the top historic American prog band!
Phideaux is good, but he is a echo of prog glory, not a big earth shaking prog group. HIs albums have great stuff, though, better than Kansas, and I will agree with another's comments here that he is probably the best act in America doing Prog right now.
As for the rest, Rush is Canadian, as is Saga. There are good American plain rock bands though, of course. But were talking about real Prog right?
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I have to disagree. I think that saying that "there isn't much which is up to standard with the European rock they love" is wholly untrue. Perhaps if you narrow the window to "symphonic prog in the seventies," you can make that argument, but I think Prog encompasses a lot more than just that narrow window (and I think if you dig deep enough you can find bands to disprove even that). To each his own though, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
I have to say, though, I would take Kansas over Yes any day.
------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 21:31
VanVanVan wrote:
RoyFairbank wrote:
KansasFan165 wrote:
American Prog is for L.O.S.E.R's
Lovers Of Symphonic European Rock
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However, KF, I think that people who really do like Prog rock will agree that there isn't much which is up to standard with the European rock they love. Sorry, but I think Kansas is a subpar band. At least, I think you will agree, they are much weaker than any of the leading European bands (for example Yes, KC, Genesis or Pink Floyd). This matters because Kansas is always held as the top historic American prog band!
Phideaux is good, but he is a echo of prog glory, not a big earth shaking prog group. HIs albums have great stuff, though, better than Kansas, and I will agree with another's comments here that he is probably the best act in America doing Prog right now.
As for the rest, Rush is Canadian, as is Saga. There are good American plain rock bands though, of course. But were talking about real Prog right?
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I have to disagree. I think that saying that "there isn't much which is up to standard with the European rock they love" is wholly untrue. Perhaps if you narrow the window to "symphonic prog in the seventies," you can make that argument, but I think Prog encompasses a lot more than just that narrow window (and I think if you dig deep enough you can find bands to disprove even that). To each his own though, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
I have to say, though, I would take Kansas over Yes any day. |
And Kansas is not the best American prog anyway, just the most popular, perhaps. But in the 70s, American prog does not match the breadth and spread of European prog, it's certainly a smaller scene, I don't think THAT is wholly untrue. I mean, up against British, Italian prog, France, Krautrock? It could be said that the comparison is not reasonable, perhaps, but that's a different story. Of course, things have changed now but the discussion seems to be about American prog in the 70s. Also, rather than just symph prog, maybe Roy Fairbank is only considering prog outside fusion. In that case also, I am inclined to agree. My favourite American progsters from the 70s are, barring Zappa, fusioners and even his music has influences of fusion.
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 27 2011 at 15:58
NRG, Kevin Gilbert's first band. Samples are downloadable for free on his website.
Ambrosia, their first two albums are excellent sympho prog.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Posted By: chefrobb
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 16:23
One word.......Utopia.....nuff said
------------- chefrobb
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 13:09
cstack3 wrote:
I'm not sure, but I think Frank Zappa was an American. |
That's right. Larry Fast (aka Synergy) is also American.
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay
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Posted By: WyattEarp
Date Posted: March 05 2011 at 09:16
Ahh lets not forget the best kept secret in america:The Muffins.
That's right!Perfected Canterbury sound america style.
America got's some awsome Space Rock in Quarkspace,Floorian,Farflung,Mushroom Bardo Pond.
Heck
America's got even Zuehl in Corima.
Then
Recently a newcomer that's fast rising up the Prog ranks out of Chicago called Algernon.
Give you a little example them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwnpt5NbJQ0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwnpt5NbJQ0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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Posted By: PinkFloydManiac1973
Date Posted: March 06 2011 at 14:17
I think it's definitely true that symphonic rock has never been America's forte. They've gotten better at it in recent years (Spock's Beard, for instance), but a lot of the older attempts are either laughable or painful to listen to. Starcastle, for one, bores me to tears -- they're often compared to Yes, and it makes me wonder how a derivation of that band's fantastic sound could be this bad. Just my opinion though, no offense to anyone who digs Luttrell and Co.
I can only take Styx in small doses; the only album of theirs I can listen to all the way through without being unhappy is "The Grand Illusion". Kansas is significantly more tolerable but after a while the violins and Steve Walsh's voice start to grate on me.
However, to say that America sucks at prog is ludicrous. After all, our version of psychedelia played a strong part in creating prog. And aren't we the big jazz buffs? If there's one style of prog we're REALLY good at, it's Jazz Fusion. Weather Report, Return to Forever, Frank Zappa (who makes whatever style he tries, including fusion, hard not to like), and Chicago ('69-'75) are great. And let's not forget The Man himself....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WCa5qOQ-DA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WCa5qOQ-DA
I'll admit that prog metal's never been my favorite style, nor am I that familiar with it. I do like Dream Theater and Ayreon but I prefer '70s and early '80s metal more, and if I want it mixed with prog I'll usually go with "heavy proggers" like Uriah Heep and Rush. However I do know that America is responsible for really bringing the prog metal scene to light with the aforemention DT as well as Queensryche and Fate's Warning.
So in short America does have a lot to offer to progressive rock, and has created a lot of good experimental music over the decades. But when it comes to symphonic prog Europe is clearly superior.
------------- "The lunatic is on the grass..."
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: March 06 2011 at 15:03
BTW, which Happy the man album would you guys recommend to get into the band?
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Posted By: progmatic
Date Posted: March 07 2011 at 21:38
Plenty of great U.S. prog right now: Phideaux is phenomenal, so are Astra and Deadwood Forest. Syzygy is decent too.
------------- PROGMATIC
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 02:21
Logos wrote:
BTW, which Happy the man album would you guys recommend to get into the band?
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The first two are highly recommended: Happy the Man 1977 Crafty Hands 1978
After that there are a few rather uneven compilations of unreleased work and the so-called 'comeback' album from 2004 The Muse Awakes, which I found incredibly sterile and bland.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 02:51
verslibre wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
I'm not sure, but I think Frank Zappa was an American. |
That's right. Larry Fast (aka Synergy) is also American. |
I was joking!!
USA didn't seem to spawn many "syphonic prog" bands, and even Starcastle (who I knew) were not up to snuff with the best from UK or Italy etc. in the 70's.
However, we seem to have a bumper-crop of jazz-fusion cats.....how about Jaco Pastorius? Ad Dimeola? Larry Coryell? Pat Metheny? Fareed Haque? The list is nearly endless!
As was mentioned by our friend from Georgia USA, Mssr. Slartibartfast, Steve Morse and the Dixie Dregs BURN!! Please check them out, and also Morse's solo work. Drop-dead fusion.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 07:21
Plenty of good prog came/comes out of the US..
Styx is not a great example.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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