Genesis overrated?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74750
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Topic: Genesis overrated?
Posted By: sarge
Subject: Genesis overrated?
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 06:58
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Now before you proggies get offended by my comments regarding the oh so lovely Genesis (oops, sarcasm already - my bad!) I think it's important you understand I have given a great deal of time listening to Gabriel-era Genesis, in particular Foxtrot and Selling England by the Pound. Is there something I'm missing? Cause i've listened to a lot of prog and, sure, Genesis shows the elements of the music I love but it really seems to go nowhere. I think the problem is largely Phil Collins' fault, there's only so much high-hat and no ride I can bear with drumming in prog. Very bland indeed. Secondly, and feel free to offer a different thought on this, I find Gabriel's voice to be almost...cringeworthy. Sorry, but it's really unpleasant to listen to. Furthermore, I think I can safely say that a band that can't keep an 8 minute song interesting should never venture out to the territory of the 20+ minute epic - you all know what song i'm talking about, that really dull one that fails to lift the ground. Mellotrons are great for creating emotion in music, but after hearing Genesis use one it makes me feel the anger like i've just tried mowing my boring lawn with a majestic chair and subsequently failed. Lastly, although unrelated to the Gabriel-era, Genesis facilitated the rise of disco. One can only hope they look back at that with shame.Does anyone else find the constant bombardment of Genesis related material on progarchives both unfathomable (due to the above reasons) and unbearable (ditto)?
Also, in regards to responses, no "well that's your opinion" crap. You're damn right it's my opinion.
Ah well, gotta go - supper's ready, shame it's always ordinary.
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Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:02
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Don't listen to them if you don't like. That's what I do with bands i don't like. The answer. No ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:06
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this is gonna be interesting, im just gonna sitt in my stool and watch this show, and eat some popcorn .
-------------  
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:10
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Indeed. Not overrated: look at all the in depth reviews on the site about Genesis. Genesis is one of the best valued bands on the site, and one of the pioneers of prog. It's just a matter of you not liking it, I think. It's like Snow Dog said: if it's not a band you like, you'd better move on to bands that you do like.
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Posted By: sarge
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:13
I know, but for the sake of keeping my sanity (it's actually getting to that point), I feel as though I need to find out what people actually get out of listening to Genesis - particularly after seeing their immense popularity on this site cause, as demonstrated by my reasons, I sure aint feeling the same way.
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Snow Dog wrote:Posted By: Aunty Ethel
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:14
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I've always found the same thing. Parts of Genesis interest me, just not enough to like them. I'll always appreciate their contribution to the greatest genre of music that will ever grace this planet, though... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:17
I don't know if anyone can answer it though. I get a lot from Genesis. If you don't even like the drumming or the vocals or even the songwriting then what can be said? That I do and many others? That much is obvious. can't help you I'm afarid. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Revan
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:18
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I don't even know what to say to you
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Posted By: sarge
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:26
Then maybe I need to clarify myself. Or better yet, try re-reading my post with a 'I don't know what band you guys are listening to but it sure can't be the same mediocre dribble i've just had running through my ears' kind of tone.
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:29
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And not everyone likes chocolate ice-cream either. Personally, I think they're missing an important gene. Maybe that's what happened to you? Just kidding.  Music like any other art form is a deeply personal thing. I'm a huge ELP fan but I don't get IQ or Marillion. But that's just me. And that will get some to thinking I'm missing a gene. That doesn't bug me. All that matters is that when I put on most ELP tunes (yes there are exceptions to be sure) I enjoy and appreciate the music. So, don't like Genesis (Gabriel or otherwise) no worry. listen to what you do like and screw the rest. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:31
| Is this Baggs redivivus? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:31
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For me it was the older Genesis that really turned me into a zombie prog pod person although I do have to also include most of the usual suspects. For me when it comes to music I have found that some stuff is love at first listen, some stuff you just have to pass on, and some stuff it's a matter of timing. So if you've actually bought some, I wouldn't recommend getting rid of it. Give it a rest and try it again later. With the diversity of music we have on this site you can be guaranteed that nothing is for everyone. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:33
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Firstly, this thread should have a "toxic" symbol attached to it. LOL
Second, sarge, it is as impossible to explain to someone who does not like or "get" a band why one DOES like or "get" them as it is to explain color to a blind person. (Or, for that matter, faith to an atheist.) All you will get are either (i) exactly what you suspected (i.e., versions of "well that's your opinion") or (ii) explanations that will simply nto resonate with you, and which you will simply either reject or, perhaps, debate - irrelevantly.
So I'm gonna join aginor here and have a beer on the sidelines while this thread either dies (through lack of interest or understanding that it will simply become a futile debate) or becomes toxic. LOL.
Peace.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:38
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Two things - 1) I've never noticed an issue with Collins' drumming. His playing on Genesis Live is one of the best in prog. 2) "Genesis facilitated the rise of disco" - that is complete tosh. |
Posted By: unforgivable74
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 07:43
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Only you can decide. Just because many people on here think that Genesis are fantastic, it doesn't make you any less a prog fan. Personally, I love Genesis but I prefer the post Gabriel / pre-Duke albums, 'Trick', 'Wind' and 'Three'. This is not a popular point of view but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I also think ELP are awful. Unlistenable. Heads up their own arses. However, loads of people on here think they are fantastic. I don't question my own opinion based on what the masses say. If this were the case, we'd all end up listening to Lady Ga Ga! Love to all for 2011 - Phil |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:01
Sorry for the color blue. We are not suppose to use colors in text. LOL. I understand how you feel. I have felt the same only with detailed aspects because I do have a love/hate relationship with the band. I probably deserve to because I have at one point or another played almost every piece by the band. On a personal level I feel that way because I am a musician and become jaded with almost anything.
Somewhere along the line, this all may be your preference. why? Because how could you not get excited over the center section of "In the Cage"? The fantastic keyboard line played by Tony Banks, as Rutherford and Collins follow playing accents off the time signature. Trick Of the Tail, Selling England By the Pound, and parts of Nursery Crime all represent a style in the writing department that differs from Crimson, ELP, Jethro Tull and probably others listed as the big 5 or 6. I believe that style is folk. The 12 string guitar, the classical guitar, and the steel string guitat are all part of an original sound that the band created. Phil Collins uses a ride cymbal on Los Endos off the "Seconds Out" album. There is an abundance of high-hat on "Cinema Show". Keep in mind that in Italy,....back during the early days of Goblin, PFM, and others,....Genesis were held in the highest regard due to their originality. They were popular in Italy and some Italian Prog bands were highly influenced by them along with many of the English bands and.....even a few German bands. Regarding their history, they had a major impact on European musicians during the 70's. Why? I don't know for that's something you will have to figure out on your own. It's the importance of the band mainly and historically in those particular circles. No doubt. This is probably something you do not see in history. Nevertheless, this is the most important fact about Genesis. The time period of their existence and their impact. Yes, Jethro Tull, and King Crimson are talked about in the same breath really! In America during the early 70's, they were somewhat thought to be an English Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young and it was all due to the folk side of their writing. All except for the Lamb which displayed more electric.
Just for the record,.....it is not completely easy to form a band with solid players and tighten up those weird and awkward breaks within the Genesis compositions. They are a challenge! But the band has never been the type to reach out and grab everyone's attention making it obvious to the listener that something technical is going on. Not like Brand X, King Crimson, Yes, or even on Jethro Tull's "A Passion Play". You can blame that on Tony Banks because he didn't want the obvious. He wanted the subtle. But yet if you perform the pieces on an instrument you might find yourself asking the question......I thought this was simple and basic to play? That was the secret of Tony Banks writing. To maybe not sound technical on the fore-front but, actually be just that.....and depending on what section you choose to play, your Jazz/Fusion drummer might have to stop the song several times to rehearse a particular part which is difficult to master. That is about all the insight I can give you. |
Posted By: Mike_Zed
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:09
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Seems their musical ideas just don't appeal to you. Try to look at the band from a different point of view; maybe from the point of view of technical skills? I, for one, have a hard time listening through Yes's albums issued before Fragile and after Relayer (with some notable exceptions), but I do appreciate their abilities. For instance, under every layer of Yes's impalpable chord progressions there's Squire bass saving the day. Every band has a way to join their "musical hooks" together - Gilmour does guitar noodling, Yes drums out chord progressions by the dozen, King Crimson makes your ears bleed and Roger Waters plays the G major chord (I mean seriously, there's a G chord in almost every of his songs). Genesis consists of 5 at least moderately skilled guys. Unlike many other bands, all Genesis' members are more or less at the same level technically. The thing is that everyone does their part instead of letting one or the other shine from time to time. Perhaps that sort of music-making does not appeal to you, perhaps you'd prefer a grand parade of technical mastery instead of mutual leveling? I'm not saying that to offend you - Dream Theater employs that good kind of showing off (that's why I don't really like them - they pay too much attention to being good and often overlook making awe-striking music). As for Gabriel's voice, I really cannot persuade you - I love his hoarse voice, he's go a decent range and the ability to both scream persuasively and whisper charmingly. Plus he's does not sound generic. That does it for me. On the other hand I can't stand each and every generic exerting "rockstar" voice like Ray Wilson or Tony Banks' vocalists; I can barely stand Mark Bonilla. And so on... so that's definitely a matter of sheer taste. Hope you find something interesting in Genesis. ------------- The Problems of the Future - Today! |
Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:09
| That's funny. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:12
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Well obviously, I am a Gabriel fanboy. Some of the music he made both with Genesis and alone affect me as deeply as any music ever made. There is a depth to their artistry that just connects with me. Gabriel-era Genesis didn't have the best production, but it still got its work done.
If you don't like Collins' drumming, well, that's taste. The guy has amazing skills and that's without question.
As others have said, listen to what you like. Don't read Genesis threads, because some of us came here to share in how much we love the band. Get over it. There are Dream Theater fanboys, Zappa fanboys, etc. etc. Avoid the threads if you don't like the artists. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:21
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Horses for courses.
You're not missing anything, you just don't like them. Don't listen to them. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:22
| I think that all the big bands are overrated.But sometimes the big fame is normal.Genesis is a musical treasure(and generally Prog rock/metal).And that happens with something(really)important.Ok,that's excessive but you get my point. |
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:32
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I agree. It's not even a matter of if they're bad or not. They just seem overrated in comparison to other bands. Sure, they were influential, but that's all they seem to have over a lot of superior bands. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:39
| TODDLER has said it. There are so very many reasons to like Genesis but you seem to have never found any of them. Also, I noted that your post talks about one limited aspect of Collin's technique (and which overlooks perhaps his beautiful display on the second half of Cinema Show...how came that fusion monster from Brand X to possess so much control and delicacy!) or Gabriel's voice or Banks's melotron. I am not saying they cannot be irritants for a listener but I was much too swept away by their myriad compositional twists to notice and I think most Genesis fans would agree with this. Lastly, yes, they are pretty and they don't kick up a storm but that is not a flaw and that does not make them overrated. It only means they have to be paid a little more attention to than say Yes or ELP to derive pleasure from. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:52
Paula Cole thought the same way and expressed that in between songs from a live bootleg concert I once owned. She is a great singer and has the most unbelievable wide range and control in the world. I personally believe her viewpoints of Gabriel are an inner sarcastic reaction to all the lousy things the industry asks her to do and then, suddenly along comes this guy Gabriel to work with her and ......it's like he has all this respect, worship, history, etc, and he doesn't truly have a great voice. Foxtrot revealed itself to a generation of "Glitter Rockers" because of the costumes, the theatrics, etc; Gabriel was on the front of "Hit Parader", "Circus", and other rock magazines like Bowie and T. Rex were. Gabriel was more like a storyteller with his voice. A poet with not an amazing vocal ability but, the talent for reciting poetic themes. I'm surprised that he didn't eventually become an Anthony Hopkins type. Gabriel was wonderful at play acting. The deepness of his voice left an impression regarding the sound leaked through as the story was being told. Phil Collins had a more well trained sounding voice but could never express that screaming and deepness at the closing of "Supper's Ready". Peter Gabriel knew how to project a soulful deepness. Quite like a Rock singer sometimes more so than a folk/prog style vocalist. He didn't by any means have an amazing vocal range....however he substituted story telling, poetry, play acting, for his lack in that area. |
Posted By: Progdaybay
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 08:59
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Oh Gosh !
A different opinion on my favorite band...
As tastes and likes are universally different, I understand Genesis music not being the no-1 for everbody.
I will go with what the 70's-Genesis has brought to me.
I like the various time signatures on their songs, such as 4/4, 5/8, 7/8, 13/16 I have seen on a single musical page; the changes in tones and keys, and the capability of coming back to the first tone, without losing the main musical theme; the magic of Hackett and (more) Banks play, with great versatility; the very complex musicality of a song; the great diversity from one song to another; sometimes, the intensity of certain passages (Firth of Fifth, Musical Box, Mad Man Moon...).
I personally see Lamb lies Down as weaker, but those from 1970 to 1976 are top-notch in those aspects.
Since I am learning (and adapting) Genesis songs on a keyboard (about 25 up to date), I know what kind of complex music they have written, and mostly how inspired they were in those years. They have created a result that is known to be one of the best reference, musically speaking. And I join this referencing easily.
I don't get those feelings with the music of Pink Floyd and King Crimson, which are more guitar-oriented. And like the one who started this subject, I transpose his taste on those groups : I don't understand, musically speaking, how those groups of Floyd and Crimson get the high scorings !! I never get musical thrills, as described in the 2nd paragraph, with those musics. I see no one of those musical features in the music of those groups. I would say Dark Side of the Moon (P. Floyd) could be an exception, because of the overall feeling, but the rest ??? Only guitar rythms and impros; this does not do the job for me...
A lot of actual prog groups like to perform Genesis music in live-shows, because of the challenge (still musically speaking), and because that music is icon !
I'm sure others can elaborate on the MUSIC complexity of Genesis-70's. That's where they have reached me.
Not overrated !
DB
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Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 09:15
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the frog was a prince, the prince was a brick, the brick was an egg, the egg was a bird (Fly away you sweet little thing, they're hard on your tail) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent"> 
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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 09:20
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I love Foxtrot and Wind & Wuthering, and kinda like The Lamb, but I just don't get their other albums. ------------- 
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 09:31
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Answer to the question - no. If I were feeling really stroppy this afternoon, I would at this point advise the OP to turn on his TV and watch England give his home nation a thoroughly good stuffing in the Ashes series. That's if I was in a bad mood and also cruel enough. As it is, I won't because I have good friends on the site from Oz ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 09:33
I have friends from Aus. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 09:35
Couldn't resist, sorry   ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 09:35
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I know what I like ...............................(IN YOUR WARDROBE) -------------
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Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 10:11
| Love Genesis---mostly---maybe the early stuff is too British for you. What prog do you love? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 10:36
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I don't love them myself, though they have their moments of brilliance. Just don't worry, it's OK to not worship any of the sacred cows - no one here will tar and feather you.
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 10:39
*waits for Ivan to see the thread* |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 10:47
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for that I need more pop-corn and a diet coke
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 10:56
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I assume Ivan hasn't responded yet because his head exploded halfway through the OP. No they're not. I love Collin's drumming and Gabriel's voice. They're a top 50 band of all time for me. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:01
Dammit Laz, you got there before me  ; he's just taking it out on a high profile English band in a fit of pique caused by the damned good thrashing meted out by our chaps
Seriously though - there are many bands (whole genres, even) I just don't get. Bottom line, don't stress over it, just move on to those you do like. By the way: NO THEY'RE NOT OVER RATED, GABRIEL ERA GENESIS ARE WONDERFUL & LOVELY, YAH BOO SHUCKS & NO RETURNS. So there
------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Rottenhat
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 11:41
Well, I was a huge Genesis fan back in the days, but nowadays I maybe inclined to say their music is not that interesting anymore. But anyway, the band is maybe still important as a "stepping stone" (or if I dare to say) a gateway from more conventional rock to the more experimental. Genesis is important maybe for the fact that not many goes from let's say straight from Beatles to Henry Cow. ------------- Language is a virus from outer space. -William S. Burroughs |
Posted By: kole
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:27
| Well, I've listened to prog for about three years, but started to like Genesis few months ago. I listened to them regularly, but they just didn't sink in. Before now. And now, well, they are amongst my top5. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:31
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When I heard Genesis Live the first time, it was love at first listen. They just had everything I loved about music at the time (21 years old). Over the years of listening, I have found that for a critical listener (I am a musician as well) there are flaws to be found. I don't much care for the studio version of Supper's Ready, but only because it sounds like it was stitched together in the studio (which it pretty much was). Sections sound very different from each other in many ways. Live, however, the song is a killer epic piece that just gets me every time. Collins was a brilliant drummer in those days, very interesting and innovative in ways that only 70's drummers seem to have been able to manage. Also, I've always liked Gabriel's voice, but could easily see how some might be put off by it, especially if they are used to more "skilled" and "professional" delivery (something we hear a lot in modern prog, but often seems drained of emotion to me, for all the technical skill applied). If anything, early Genesis is terribly underrated. At least, compared to the wildly popular version of the band in the 80's and 90's. I for one was completely surprised to discover that Gabriel used to be their singer and that they played a more complex and adventurous style of music in the 70's (though in all honesty, the roots of their pop stardom are plainly evident, even in the most "prog" of their numbers like Supper's Ready, Cinema Show, Firth of Fifth, etc.). But as everyone else has said, don't worry about it. Move on. Listen to what you like. I can think of several bands that seem quite popular here that I find quite dull and uninteresting (cough*Marillion*cough.........as one example). However, I don't assume that because I don't like something it must therefore be "overrated". Just consider that the vast majority of the music listening public likes things like Lady Gaga and Justin Beiber (shudder), in far larger numbers than anyone likes just about any band here (aside from the obvious, like the Beatles, Floyd, Zeppelin, etc.). |
Posted By: Harold-The-Barrel
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:39
If You don't like them, don't listen to them. there isn't any rule that says you have to like them because they're deemed to be one of the better Prog bands. Having said that I just don't trust a Prog fan who says he doesn't at least like some aspects of their music, so Yeah you're missing a lot, but thats your loss, its probably down to your age which I'd say was quite young, judging by your cocky ""well that's your opinion" crap. You're damn right it's my opinion." jibe. I mean if you can't argue a point properly without going on the defence first, well then you've already lost the argument and my respect....for what its worth.
------------- You must be joking.....Take a running jump...... |
Posted By: glenn_ecko
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 12:43
| I would say that Genesis easily makes my list of top 10 bands of all time. With members like Gabriel, Hackett, and Banks - over-rated is im-possible. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:17
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I can't ever remember giving a load of time to listening to a band I don't like! Why do that to find out why others like them so much? daft really. If I find a vocalist 'cringeworthy' I wouldn't give them the time of day. Why torture yourself. There is so much music out there prog or not prog you obviously like wasting time.
I have never understood critisisms of Supper's Ready as being seperate pieces of music sewn together. No matter how many times I listen to it I can never see it that way. It is outstanding but well thats my opinion.
Everybody likes Chocolate Icecream surely?
Oh well back to the Cricket. Oops sorry!!!! (You all live on a conv......) ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:19
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I hate chocolate ice cream.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:21
^ Oh yes, well they might just be over rated a little by some. And unfairly critisised by others. I probably fall in to the former  group.------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:24
Ah well. But you wouldn't eat loads of it to try and find out why others do. Or would you? ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:33
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No sir.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:54
You deserve the government. ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:56
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Sarge, to use a few of your words, I really don't know you that much to give a crap about your damn opinion. In rock music, Genesis takes first or second place with me. -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:57
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In a anarchist society, even chocolate ice cream would taste good.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 13:58
The ice cream wouldn't change only your opinion of it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:03
Ok so now chocolate reveals your true colors: you are no libertarian, you're a full-fledged anarchist! Well we knew that already but once again, in chocolati veritas. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:04
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By the way, good chocolate needs planning... -------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:05
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Try Midnight Oil instead or watch the last 2 days of the incredible England Ashes series.......a bit like Battle Of Epping Forest ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:09
Damn, chocolate always reveals my closely guarded secrets. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:14
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Phil wrecked Genesis. After Gabriel packed it in they should have just have restructured themselves and called it something else. Whe And Then There were Three came out I almost wanted to slit my throat.
------------- |
Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:15
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you considered The Beatles to be over-rated as well. I suggest you allow your musical taste to evolve and mature, have another listen, and then report back in a year or two. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:29
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I'll give the guy three years to figure out how really bad the Beatles sucked the big one.
------------- |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:36
Liking The Beatles or Genesis is not a sign of maturity. sarge, if you actually wanted people's opinions, which I suspect you didn't, you wouldn't have used such an obnoxious, combative tone. I'm generally baffled by the attention the whole symph subgenre gets here, and yet I manage to not make annoying threads about it. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/search_results_posts.asp?SearchID=20110105143348&KW=genesis+overrated" rel="nofollow - Try reading some of the hundreds of replies to people who had better intentions than you. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:47
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Interesting how this thread coincides with a recent stream of 3/4 star reviews for SEBTP (including my own, quick, it's on the front page now!!) and the fact that that album has slipped off the top-spot for 2011
Are we witnessing the beginnings of a revolt?! ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 14:57
I gave it 5 stars. Rating only ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 15:02
That is so awesome!!! And chocolate ice cream rules too...
Most have covered my thoughts on the question...which is NO. What I believe was just an attempt at starting a flame war, was talking about Phil's drumming and Gabriel's singing as issues to why you don't like Genesis?? Makes no sense...you could have picked something else that might have struck me as maybe this guy is looking for reasons to continue listening to Genesis....rather than why you should stop.
Yes they are rated very highly on this site and many others too......there is reason for that. But for me that is not a reason why I enjoy all of Genesis music.....I could give a rats a$$ if someone rates them a 5 or 1. For me they hit so many homeruns with their music, lyrics and style that I find myself emmersed in their albums.
If you are simply looking for reasons to tag them overrated then you need to re-evaluate why you listen to music at all. -------------   
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 15:02
When?
And jeez, why not justify your rating with some opinions nobody else cares about??? ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 15:46
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Hi,
I think that you are superimposing your own tastes onto a band ... you prefer this or that type of drumming and not Phil's ... and in the end, this a problem, when we're trying to define music ... we think, and believe, that only this or that can be had or done, and you just did the same thing with the drumming. While not exactly progressive, you might check Keith Moon, who was "cymbalistic" to say the least ... and he is by far one of the best rock drummers ever.
It has to do with the music ... and if the drummer can only keep time, I usually joke, get a metronome, it's cheaper and doesn't talk back at you! ... and you don't have to put up with ego's! And you might even find some music amidst it all ... ! It's what the experimenting 60's and 70's were about ... and you are superimposing a regiment that did not belong there at all!
And the drumming in those days, was NOT as metronomic as it is today, and was much more centered on the quality and feeling of the moment, than it was around the timing of the music itself ... today's drummers have all the "time" in their snare drum, and nothing else ... and that is not exactly representative of the word "music".
You are correct in the keyboard area ... and it is one of my complaints ... ELP and Genesis are the darlings and such because of keyboards, but Guru Guru and Incredible String Band are not as important, and they are far more progressive and adventurous than both of those bands ... but they will not get the listen because so many of us are stuck on that stupid keyboard mode ... and specially when it has that analog sound, or that hammond sound in it! Heck, to the shame of it all, ISB is rumored to have been booed when they were at Woodstock and apparently did a part of their stage show from "U" ... which goes to tell you that kids were too stoned to enjoy anything except the hits ... is that any different than what you are doing here?
Be careful when you discuss an instrument. Check out Carl Palmer ... it's not all metronomic, but it is very mechanical and well defined. Check out early KC in the early days ... it's not quite metronomic ... and it has uncanny touches to help accentuate the lyrics and the singing, which a lot of modern bands are not capable of doing ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 15:53
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Ohh and BTW..the disco reference, that completely shot you outta the water and maybe this site...at least for awhile
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 16:00
Hmmmm ... progressive disco? ... is that the one where we dance and lose weight? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 16:48
  ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 17:20
I quite like ATTW3...the comment made me  -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 19:45
It's an amazingly simple plan. I don't know why I didn't think of it first.
You showed amazing restraint. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 21:41
Oh, the irony in your metaphor .
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 05 2011 at 22:53
| I myself had a little trouble getting into Genesis... I felt their was something missing, and I really didn't like Gabriel's singing... but at the same time there was something that made me want to listen to them again, and I really got to like them. They are still not my faovourite band, and still don't like Gabriel (though I have learned to tolarate him), but there are moments really great that I love. I think it was Firth of Fifth that finally got me hooked and helped me learn to like them. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 01:51
Excellent post that
My own two cents worth about Genesis is that when I was growing up I felt they were not really that progressive ,and that feeling came from my perception of Banks lack of adventure in the keyboards dept compared to say Emerson or Wakeman. Genesis were much more about the writing (both composition and lyrics) and it took me a long while to really appreciate that.
Nowadays they are one of my favourite bands although ironically I prefer their less progressive sounding albums (ATOTT to Duke) to those recorded during the Gabriel era. But that is just my taste.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 04:09
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if anything they're underrated |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 04:34
76 - 80 is my favourite Genesis period too, although I do love the gabriel era. It was Tonys keys and Phils drums that reeled me in, when I first heard the band. I remember 'Three sides Live' (or Genesis in America?) was broadcast on TV late one night in 1985 ( I think) and I decided to watch it, with the headphones on, really not expecting much, and not knowing much about the band, apart from that Phil Collins was the singer, and I didn't like him much at the time! I'd hard some Genesis on Tommy Vances Friday rock show too. Watching that concert changed the way I listened to music, and confirmed me as a prog fan and Genesis fan. All the dynamics and twists and turns balanced with the melodies and consumate song writing, were everything I was looking for in band at that time. They've been my favourite prog band ever since. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 05:05
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Heads up prog folk.
One of the subjects in tonight's Celeb mastermind is Genesis. 7PM BBC1 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 10:26
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I guess all prog bands are more or less overrated by "progfans". By "other" people, I guess prog bands are generally underrated. I dont think Genesis are overrated either by "normal" people, and not by fans of prog either. If they are, then all prog is overrated.
My first Genesis album from the seventies was Selling England, which I got in -97. I was discovering prog at that time and wasnt as experienced as a music listener as I am now. It took quite some time before I got into the album. My appreciation started with "Firth of Fifth", which suddenly came alive, as if I hadnt noticed the song before. Then the whole album came alive song by song. "The cinema show" was a song I hadnt any opinions about until some time later, when I realized that it's a masterpiece.
When I think about each of the Genesis albums in the 70:es, each album has its own feeling. Compare Nursery crime to Selling England, and I think it's two different things, but great in its own ways.
It took a lot of time to get into Trespass as well. I new that I probably wouldnt like it instantly, but I had no idea in what way I would like it. I think that's an important condition, that you dont decide in advance how music should appeal to you. If you do, your appreciation of music wont evolve . Trespass in my view is great in its own unique way, it has qualities which no other album could replace.
So I guess you should have a fresh mind at the start of listening to each album. It's no point trying to decide if Genesis is good or not. There are many sides to Genesis.'
If you like rock and roll and dont like classical, maybe Genesis wont be the ideal band to listen to. It has a lot of classical elements. Trespass is especially interesting regarding dynamics. Like symphonic classical, it can go from very soft to very powerful. Theres a lot of changes in tempo with ritardandos and accelerandos, and every change is very fluid in every respect. Listen to White Mountain. Some people critize John Mayhews drumming, but I really like it, it's like a part for a classical piece, not so much about groove as its more about expressing the energy, intensity and dynamics and to follow the musical development.
But thats just an attempt to describe some of the technical aspects of what makes Trespass so special. The unique atmosphere of the album is hard to describe.
Supper's ready is just one song, and doesnt define Genesis. What makes music interesting is a matter of personal opinion of course. If it's long blues jams or heavy metal with a constant, unchanging level of energy you want, then Genesis might be considered "bland". In my view it's an ironic choice of word to describe music which in every respect is varied and full of originality. I only use the word bland to describe unoriginal, uninspired, generic music without daringness, which sounds like a lot of other stuff.
So I suspect that you want Genesis to be something that it isnt. The point is not deciding in advance how you should like some kind of music. It's better to be open-minded and to be prepared to appreciate the music for it's own unique qualities. ------------- http://www.lastfm.se/user/wilmon91" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 10:40
Hi Mr Dog...happy new year!
Do you know if that is available on the internet to view?
1 woof = yes
2 woof = no -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 10:56
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Woof! * * Yes and no, not available outside UK I think ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 10:57
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But if I record it maybe i can grrrrrww woof woof...upload just thge GRRRRRRRRenesis woof bit! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:19
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Ooo, I shall be watching that.
This was exactly my situation. I still think it's probably their best song too. I actually like Gabriel but I think Tony Banks and Phil Collins were(/are) both too arrogant to allow the others to contribute what they were capable of. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:20
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^ That would earn you a back scratch and a dried up pigs ear to chew on..... -------------
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:22
| So much energy expended on whether these top bands are under or over rated. In the mean time there are so many bands who are hardly rated at all. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:22
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:43
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Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:45
Certainly you can say that Tony was/is arrogant in terms of what went on the albums. However, you cannot level that accusation at Phil. He was a very minor contributor until duke and after that, even though he was a superstar away from the band, was extremely keen that the contributions were split 3 ways and that all albums from duke onwards were a true group effort. Tony was always the major contributor to Genesis (even on songs such as "Hold On My Heart") and, for me, was always the heartbeat of the band. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 11:45
I understood. It was just getting a bit..........weird....you know?  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 12:03
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^ True.........this whole post is weird........Genesis is the greatest band in the land -------------
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Posted By: Varon
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 12:30
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I think it's impossible to call Genesis "overrated" - they are like Mozart in classical music : you can not to like them but you should admit that they are great. Why? Because they 1971,1972,1973,1974 albums are wonderful examples of pure beauty and profoundness, they are really full of inspiration and they are free from stupid experiments . I'm not their fanboy so I don't think I'm very subjective writing that  ------------- Would you catch the final words of mine? Would you catch my words??? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 13:38
Top marks for Mr Blacksword. Easy! ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 13:49
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I got most. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 14:22
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I'm bored. Let's fight.
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Posted By: hobocamp
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 14:48
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The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway > The Cinema Shows What I Like in Epping Forest (any reference to Firth intentionally left out) Everything else on Foxtrot > Supper's Ready I guess I don't see the attraction to their more popular material. I hope this was helpful.
------------- three dot, a trinity, a way to map the universe, three dot four dot, is what will make a square, a bed to build on, it's all there, four dot |
Posted By: sarge
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 16:26
Yeah, maybe it's too British. Most of my favourite prog is generally within the German Krautrock and Italian prog stuff. But still really big on British bands like King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, The Moody Blues, Caravan, Camel, Soft Machine as well as a lot of the 60's proto-prog.
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Posted By: sarge
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 16:32
No way! The Beatles are underrated if anything! |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 16:39
I even got the 2 that Brian Moore didn't. |
Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 17:42
Call me a saddo (no, go on ) but I got all 18 correct  |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 17:48
T....I am disappointed in you.........this is not a good attempt at getting this party started again (or a fight).
Please edit and try again.....jeez come on man!!!
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 18:36
That inner troll might be starting to fade..  -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 19:17
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I don't know about overrated, but sometimes they get berated around here.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Cosmivorous
Date Posted: January 06 2011 at 21:12
| Genesis are terrible. Let's go to the dissscooooooo! fukk!....But nah, yeah, they are very overrated. I'm waiting for Phil Collins to fall off the perch. |