Rating Dilemma
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73105
Printed Date: February 04 2025 at 23:43
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Topic: Rating Dilemma
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Subject: Rating Dilemma
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 03:33
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I do not know if this is the correct place to post it, because it has a lot to do with music. Imagine the following situation: You feel so excited about the new possibility to rate albums on this page  , you start rating all albums of your favourite artist X. You give the masterpieces of X 5-star, the near to perfect albums 4-star, the overall good albums but with weak moments 3-star, the albums not so good 2-star and the albums 'for completionists only' 1-star. So far so good.Then you proceed to your next favourite artist Y. You think: "Wow, this is Y's masterpiece, I'll give it 5-star right away." But then you think: "Wait! Do I really think that this album is better than the 4-star albums of X? No." That is too bad. So what would you do? 1. You re-rate the the 4-star albums of X and change them to 5-star, so you can give Y's masterpiece a 5-star, too (but you feel bad about it, because X has then too many 5-stars and it makes you look like a fanboy/-girl). 2. You give Y's masterpiece a 5-star and don't change X (and you feel bad about it, because you think this is not fair towards the 4-star albums of X.) 3. You give Y's masterpiece a 4-star (and you feel bad about it, because Y has then no 5-star album, but you think, they might deserve it.) This is the dilemma I am into. Can you advise me? 
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Replies:
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 04:12
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Comparing what you deem to be say, ELP's best album with that of say Crimson's best album, should allow for different results. I guess the problem here is akin to 'painting yourself into the corner of the room' when you dish out your first 5 star rating i.e. you compare the relative merits of every subsequent album to the first one. Over time you will come to realise that maybe a band's best album is not a bona fide 5 star 'masterpiece of progressive rock' after all. Just remember you are free to reappraise your ratings at any time and given sufficient numbers of ratings a balance will be established where only those rare and exceptional records garner 5 sparklies. For me, I think I rate really low in an attempt to avoid a surfeit of flawed 'masterpieces' and can't help but feel the 3 star rating has become viewed as 'ordinary' instead of what it should be i.e. GOOD but not essential. ------------- 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 04:20
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When I rate something 3 i also consider it good....very good actually, two stars is fair....not bad at all. Sorry this is no help for the OP ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 04:23
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^ Yep is it just me Snowie that gets the impression 3 stars has become a sort of 'damning with feint praise' appraisal these days?
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 05:51
| 2, I think. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 06:52
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I'd choose option three... couldn't care less if a group doesn't have a 5*- album in my eyes
Actually from day 1 on this site, I always rated albums compared to the vast mass of prog/non-prog albums
If I do of course rate by pitting X's album against each other, but also against the albums of Y, Z , A , B; C; etc....
Three stars is for me an a good album (but hardly excellent) with some unintereseting tracks.... and I may choose to not own it depending on whether I really want the good tunes on it.
I've also gotten rid of quite a few 3* album by compiling the good tracks on a Cd-r ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
ExittheLemming wrote:Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:29
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I'm in a bit of a dilema over the new Tinyfish album. I rated the debut 4 stars, as it is indeed an excellent addition to any collection, but the the follow up album, The Big Red Spark is significantly better than the debut. I'm happy in principle to give it 5 stars, but does it really fit the Progarchives criteria for a genre defining masterpiece?
It's one of the reasons I've not bothered posting a review yet. Also, I'm still exploring the album. It seems to reveal something new to me with each listen so far. Another way of looking at it would be, do I really give a flying f**k? 
I tend to appraise music, rightly on wrongly, on how it makes me feel, rather than what boxes it ticks. In answer to the opening post, I can see the dilema, but it's fair to say that reviewing music is not an exact science, even for analytical, pedantic, know it all prog fans.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:33
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^ Agreed but we might all agree that the target is roomy enough to accommodate 'degrees' of 1,2,3, 4 and 5 stars?
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:37
Yes, I would hope so. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:41
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^ Do you think there is justifiable cause for half stars? (I know that sounds a bit anal but I agree that the 'goalposts' are sufficiently large to accommodate this)
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:44
^^ Yes, very much so. In fact I think a number of my reviews start with something like "Actually this deserves 3.5 stars' Maybe I'm more anal than I realise!  ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:48
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I review each album on its own merits or flaws without comparing it to how I rated other albums or bands as much as I can possibly do that. I love The Mars Volta- yet they've never given what I consider to be a five star album. I've rated all 5 studio albums with 4 stars. Now if we were rating bands, The Mars Volta would be a five star band- an essential prog band. King Crimson- excellent band- but no single album is five stars for me. Same deal though- essential prog band, even though each album has some major flaw or another. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:49
We've been pestering mailto:M@X - M@X for years for this...
Once he created MMA wioth half-stars, he promised it would be feasible here
 Still waiting....  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 07:55
Fair comment Robert and it seems clear from your post that your 'intuition' (gleaned from being a prolific reviewer) would point you to what you consider a 'Progressive Rock masterpiece' BTW Are there erm...degrees of masterpieces or 5 star status? (I'm sure I can see that for 1,2,3 and 4 but is it true for 5 sparklies?) -------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 08:06
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Gnosis2000 gives a 15 steps scale, which can be broken down in a 5 stars similar to ours
15-13 can be likened to 5+, 5, 5-
12-10 can be seen as 4+, 4, 4-
9-7 can be understood as 3+, 3, 3-
Etc....
15: One of the best ever, perfect. We suggest to raters that, at most, the top 1% of all albums receive a 15. While any rating from 12 through 15 can accurately be described with the superlatives "masterpiece" or "classic," only the 15s should appeal to the rater in as profound a manner as possible.
14: A near perfect classic. In many ways, the difference between 15s and 14s are barely existent; 14s are fantastic albums that either have a very minor flaw or just dont take it to the next level. We suggest to raters that, at most, the top 5% of all albums receive either a 14 or 15. 13: A classic, but not one of the very best. 13s are exalted grades. They are used for albums that the raters consider a classic or a masterpiece, yet did not make the very peak of the hill. A 13 is still an extremely highly recommended item, one that has few flaws. This rating can also be considered an "in-between" grade between favorites and borderline classics.
11: Excellent. While not a classic, an album that is very enjoyable and an important part of ones collection. We recommend that raters not give grades higher than 11 on the very first listen.
10: Very good. An album that, while not great, is definitely worth keeping and is very enjoyable.
9: Pretty good. While an album better than most, one may or may not keep an album with a rating of 9.
8: Slightly above average. An album with noticeable flaws, although few permeate the album entirely. Perhaps half the album is superb but the other half is so-so. Or there's a sentimental connection and little else.
7: Completely mediocre. Neither good nor bad. In the greater scheme of things, an album rated as a 7 has been buried under a pile of much superior titles, and while one is not ready to pan it, the rating implies, that, ercan you put something else on?
5: Below average. Maybe not outright "bad", but definitely a poor effort.
4: Pretty bad. A grade of 4 indicates a strong recommendation to avoid.
2: Very bad, but there are worse. Although an incredibly poor effort, not one of the very worst. However, thats not to say that there are any redeeming values.
1: The worst thing ever. Intolerable. Godawful. A frisbee. A perfect example of something that one loves to hate. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 08:16
I wouldn't say "degrees," but there are certainly albums I've rated 5 stars that I like less than others. For example, Tales from Topographic Oceans is 5 stars, and so is Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, but I enjoy the former far more than the latter. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 08:19
If you are not sure trhat its 5 stars, give it 4 stars also. I see no problem with that. There are ELP albums for example that I like with varying degrees, but I would give them 4 stars even if i liked one more than the other. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 08:20
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I think the problem is that you assume most artists made a 5/star masterpiece. In fact, very few bands made a masterpiece. If you start with the assumption that every band is going to have one or more 5 star ratings, I think that's flawed. Most bands made good albums (3 stars), some made outstanding/excellent (4) star albums, and a very scant few made a 5 star album. My opinion is that the 5 star rating should be used for albums which you feel reside in the top 5% best of all time. That's the question I ask myself when I use the rating. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 09:26
Exactly....
Rating albums with the 5* as a starting point is not really suited. This is why mailto:M@X - M@X innstalled a warning sign when you press the 5* button, a few years ago....
It's much better to consider 3* as the basis or reference rating.
Masterpieces are, almost by definition ,rare and should be less than 2.5% of the mass of albums in a given music genre. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 11:49
No, I do not think that at all. My dilemma already starts when I look at my favourite artists. There are albums that I would say are 'essential for a prog rock collection' but which are probably not my favourite albums. And there are my favourite albums. When I understand correctly, most of you would advise me to rate more 4-stars (even if I think it is essential) and leave the 5-stars only for a very few of my real favourites. In the above example it would be then option 3. BTW, the 15 points system is nice. We had that in the last year of school, too: a 15-points system instead of the 6-marks system. I especially like the frisbee definition for 1 point. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 12:03
Ooops, sorry that I misunderstood your OP. 
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 12 2010 at 12:38
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With regard to the percentage of 5 star ratings, I'm not sure that there should be a "quota" or "target", although I do agree that they should be the exception rather than the norm. I think I have reviewed ten 2010 albums so far this year. One had a five star rating, David Minasian, and I do consider this album to be exceptional. I have, from what I can make out, another five to review, a couple of which I have been holding back. However, one thing is for certain, and that is not one of them will be five stars. There is a two star, then a mix of three & four. So, one out of fifteen, or just short of 7%. That's higher than some figures quoted as a "guide", but still only one album for the entire year's purchases. I also consider a three star rating to constitute a good album, and definitely worthy of purchase. For example, i reviewed Blackmore's Night new album yesterday (I think) and gave it three stars. It is a good BN album, and definitely one that fans of the band and that type of music would enjoy, but is by no means essential. Finally, I don't compare albums between artists when awarding ratings. They are awarded entirely on that album, and that album alone. It is also, of course, possible for artists/bands to have more than one masterpiece. Yes, Genesis, and Marillion (I know that's my personal bias ), for example, have certainly produced these.------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 15 2010 at 09:51
That is one of the problems with any subjective rating system of quantitative assignments to qualitative descriptions like "masterpiece". The system itself becomes subjective, not just the subjects of the reviews. We have seen some pretty arbitrary considerations from "any Prog Rock can be considered 5 star" to "everything after 1989 is 1 star". Nobody is bound to any limit on the number of albums they consider masterpieces. Some people feel very strongly about music and polarize in kind. I believe that most of us have come to the conclusion that the quantitative measure for art is a bit shallow to say the least. The substance is in the review. A better litmus test is scanning an individual reviewers overall genre ratings (a nice graphic presented on each members profile) and giving weight to what the individual thinks of the sub-genre overall. An album's overall ratings are no indication of whether you will like the album or not. So, to answer the op's question....well, I didn't. The nice thing is that as PRs and Collabs we are able to change our ratings/reviews if we feel that its merit changed over time. And believe me, they do. I am sure there is some argument to that point, but unless there is a site rule against it, it remains open to the aforementioned subjectivity. Oh...and please don't shoot yourself in the head. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: November 15 2010 at 14:15
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Thank you for all your opinions. I have understood so far, that I should give away 5-stars as less as possible, and I'll try it. So that means for me when I rate, that 4-stars I regard as essential and the 5-stars are my few personal favourites. Which is a bit different from the description on this site, where 5-stars are 'essential' and 4-stars are 'add-ons'. But probably this is only playing with words.
When you say so... |