Is Prog-Related even still being used?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70426
Printed Date: January 10 2025 at 11:52
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Topic: Is Prog-Related even still being used?
Posted By: Battlepriest
Subject: Is Prog-Related even still being used?
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 16:14
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Before I get started, let me state that I love the fact that Tori Amos has been added to Prog Archives. And it doesn't hurt my feelings that Nine Inch Nails and Tara Busch were added either. These are very good (dare I say upper-tier) alternative pop-rock artists which can reasonably be associated with progressive music. That said, why are they "Crossover Prog" instead of Prog-related? Certainly if the almost pejorative Prog-Related tag is good enough for Kate Bush, Styx, Wishbone Ash, Ambrosia, Queen and King's X, it should be good enough for these alternative artists that were recently added. |
Replies:
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 22:53
None of the three could be in Prog-Related, because Prog-Related artists "[a]re widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community". 
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 23:12
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But Metallica started as a straight up thrash metal band, and DT claimed the "classic" prog rock bands, and fates warning, as influence. Even if they had a "prog" mindset I don't why Megadeth isn't.... Wait, I'll stop now   |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 03:14
 I'm very glad that you actually brought this up, because I've been concerned with the placement of some of these recent crossover entries.... I'm not discussing the inclusion itself, here.... but where it's placed in.
While I'm not shocked by KB-clone Tori Amos' entry, how can she be proggier (since she's in crossover) than her sole influence Kate Bush.....who's rightly fitted in prog related.....
 (please, the solution is not to move KB in crossover, here )It's not just TA or NIN (I don't know of Tara Busch), but Sally Oldfield, David Byrne, Steely Dan and a few more that are concerned here
I know this is a bit of a risky business (not to mention politically incorrect) to go against the collabs' judgment, but something must be done.....
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Battlepriest wrote:Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 07:44
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We are working on refining the PR definition so that it fits the artists we have there now and leaves the door open for other artists who are more or less part of the prog world (at least at some time) without being total prog artists themselves.
Definitions are tough to perfect and then tough to follow to a T, we'll do our best, but I'm sure there will always be some dissatisfaction. P.S. Steely Dan is no longer in xover, they found a much better fit in JR/F. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 08:06
^^^
Your opinion
 .... but, there are many that prefer they wouldn't be here at all.... they're simply not "prog" in the strictest sense of the word, so placing them in a full-blown prog category is misleading; IMHO.
the original deal (struck with micky) was that they'd stay in crossover if not put in prog-related....
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 08:12
| I'm not a SD fan, but I actually sat down and listened to a bunch of their records, I was surprised, they were a lot more progressive than I would have thought before I listened to the music. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 09:14
I wasn't either, and still not that much nowadays, although I recognize their talents.... But I wrote a review for everyone of their studio albums, anyway. Royal scam is mu fave of theirs, followed by Countdown
Yes well-made straight pop songs (in the AOR mode) with many intricate arrangements.... no doubt these guys were pros (studio rats actually as they are usually called)
but still not full-blown prog.... ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 09:25
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I wouldn't have proposed them either, but since they are here, their best fit seems to be JR/F. Having said that, their presence doesn't bother me much, they are a borderline case.
If you want someone to defend their initial inclusion you will have to get someone else to do that, a certain someone who doesn't come around here much anymore
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 09:39
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It's not the initial inclusion that is irksome...it is that they have been moved to Fusion. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 09:48
Same here, borderline inclusion, which in itself implies prog-related
 You'd be surprised how quick he can come back...
 ( 1.... 2.... 3...Hi micky)As Snowy says, it's not the inclusion, it's the new placement that's bothersome (and the micky initiator has nothing to do with that)
I rarely fight those borderline inclusions anymore, since PA has become an open field with PR.....
but I'd like to make sure that Crossover doesn't become another wide-open door for "anything-we-like" >> (that's prog related
)------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 10:11
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The harmonic and tonal language of SD is pure jazz. The beats, structure and setting are/were contemporary pop with the occasional excursion into full-blown progressive fusion. That is why they were approved unanimously by Dick Heath, Alucard and myself.
It was also taken into account what a huge influence SD had on fusion, both progressive bands and otherwise. I'm a pro jazz/rock musician and I can tell you SD's influence in the late 70s was probably bigger than most pure fusion bands. That is all from me guys, ..later. I hand over the rest of the debate to my good buddy Micky ... now heeeere's Micky!!! ..... ...um .. or Bob .. whatever. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 10:29
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What does seem odd is that having taken all the flak for the SD addition, the Crossover team would be willing to give them up to another genre.
On the wider issue, I think the site is being pulled two different ways just now. There are those who feel it is casting its net too wide on one side, and those who would like to see it broaden even further on the other. To the credit of all concerned, these debates to date have been informed, constructive and enjoyable with genuine respect being shown for opinions which differ from our own.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 12:11
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Yeah, some of us, myself included, are big tenters, others are only comfortable with prog being narrowly defined. And as I have stated before, Prog Related is so narrowly defined now that a lot of the artists already there wouldn't qualify if they weren't already there. I don't see where you have to be musically influential to prog to be related to prog. Crossover has taken in some artists that might be a better in other categories, but worthy all the same.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 12:27
Slarti, read my post at the top, we are fixing the PR definition, its almost ready, everyone will be happy, there will be a big party at my house (um ..apartment) you are invited! |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 13:43
Poor old Micky. Just because he submiited the addition does not negate the fact that it was a Team Decision. Additionally he will be absolutely rolling on the floor laughing at some members continued narrow minded thinking on recent additions. The Jazz Rock/Fusion Team saw fit to have Steely Dan under their banner. This in my opinion was an excellent call and in the interest of PA a sensible one. Teams do not guard their bands as though they were the last scraps on a marooned ship. We are not surrendering our spouses just a band whom we felt fitted another genre better
Again emotion based on older bands added, no mention made to the multitude of new artists entered. Clearly these assumptions are based on opinion and emotion. Get over it Looking forward to thebig party at John's apartment ( Hope I'm invited...hahah). Who knows we may even discuss prog.------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 03:18
Chris,
as far as I read in this thread, nobody even said a bad word about micky's wish to include them in the database.
Actually I don't doubt this
 .... But it's not a question of narrow-mindedness, but more a question of question of giving the correct info and not misleading prospective progheads.But let's leave the SD admission alone; this thread was mostly about Tory Amos's placement.... I'm sure that if you ask Tori about her music being progressive rock, she'll laugh in your face. She's a pure singer/songwriter with a Kate Bush obsession....
Don't get me wrong here, I like her stuff and don't mind it in the database and if you use the serch function, you'll see that I even started a thread about her (unless it was in PE).
It's just that including her in crossover is very misleading , especially with Kate Bush sitting in Prog-Related......
AAMOF, I'd be much more comfortable with things the other way around. I'm sure you can see the rightfulness of this assertion. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 05:17
I agree with what you say here. And I reiterate(to Chris S) that the initial inclusion is not a problem. This discussion has absolutely no bearing on micky at all. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 05:56
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I still say we get rid of all the genre divisions and just call it Textbook's Interesting Music Site. |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:07
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Hmmm, there's a certain sense of "if A is here then B must also be here" logic in this discussion. Incidentally a form of reasoning we more or less politely ask new users to refrain from when suggesting new artists ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:13
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Five well informed, mostly experienced Xover member votes for Tori Amos: unaninmously voting for Xover addition. Due to a potential controversial addition all five votes are required. Not one suggested P/R. So your opinions say our opinions are wrong....sweet we respect that but it won't change anything. Take up Kate Bush with the Admin team Hugues. If you wanted her in Xover we would be honoured to have her only becuase her music can sit comfortably in this genre.
Putting a Corporate Hat on and credibility to the JR/F team for wanting SD, they should have been there initially but it was not to be and Xover if I remember correctly was the next sensible sub genre. in case noone noticed these genre domains do overlap from time to time.
Just look at Huey Lewis and the News recently added to Prog Folk, noone complained.....
Just kidding
 he was added to prog electronic  Good night, over and out. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:14
^ I honestly can't see how you come to this conclusion. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:17
Not complaining about TA being in Xover...but logic would dictate Kate Bush should be accepted their too. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:21
When Tori Amos is in Crossover then Kate Bush should also be in Crossover (or replace Crosover with prog related if that's how you feel). An opinion stated several times in this thread, and if that isn't an becase A then B type of logic then I really don't know what is. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:21
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^^ Maybe she will, but you saw what John Easy Money posted. There is update of definitions needed. So if she will moved as well, it's up to this. Or what said Brian Slarti, that's true as well.. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:26
No. This is not the same because this time its true and anyway they are aalready both in the database. Beside which if TA is in Xover by definition the KB should be in Xover by definition. It's all about making PA na consistent place.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:35
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I'll know who to contact next time it's suggested that Deep Purple is moved to heavy because Atomic Rooster is there then. Consistency the main issue, I'll take notice of that :-)
------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:38
I see what you are saying. Overlap. Don't see how it applies in the TA/ KB case. Banging my head against a wall here...I'm out. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 06:52
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"Well, I owned two [Kate Bush albums], which are of course "Hounds of
Love" and the one after, "The Sensual World". I really love those two.
Someone gave me "The Red Shoes", but then someone else stole it. People
come to my beach house in Miami and some things go and some things
arrive. Where did that ceramic squirrel come from?" -- Tori; Attitude Magazine, Sept 2001 "Well, when I was about seventeen, I was playing clubs and people would come up to me and say, 'You sound like Kate Bush.' And at the time: seventeen, that was ... thirteen years ago, and I would say, 'I don't, I don't know that, but I've heard of her.' So eventually, of course, I got her record, and I didn't really think I sounded like her. But maybe there're moments--there're moments -- who knows what my great-great-great-great-grandfather was doing back there, you don't know where the genes go. I, I do admit that there are moments of 'God, that's uncanny.' I mean, I guess if somebody was going to do, like, you know, 'Is it live or is it Memorex?', we could probably do each other and nobody would know, unless you really have a good ear. But, um, she smokes a little more weed than I do, so I'd have to catch up. Just a little more. -- Tori; CFNY Radio Toronto, Oct 12, 1995 I: Many critics have compared you to Kate Bush. T: Yes, but I think that has nothing to do with my songs, just my voice. They hear these high sounds (sings) and immediately think of Kate Bush. I: But your song concepts are completely different. T: Yes, she works with other structures. But her songs are very original, and that's what matters. -- Tori; Keyboards Magazine (German), Jun 1992 ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 07:34
Chris, you lovable goof, you almost had me checking to see if you had entered Huey Lewis in PF without asing our permission
, that is when I read the last sentence of your post.... good onethat's precisely what I did the day before this thread started, but not about Kate, but about Tori, and I have nothing to do about this thread being started, even though its appearance is almost providential....
As for Kate Bush 's move..... I knew that would be your easy solution (see my first post in this thread) to avoid saying that the crossover team is confusing crossover with prog-related... That's what it comes down to and if the admins are moving in the renewing of the PR definition, it is precisely because of that issue....
As usual, we (PA in a whole) flee/escape forward to avoid the confrontation, which in itself is a peaceful solution.... and maybe the good one.
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Olav, of course Tori will deny her Kate Bush fixation, but you can't expect her to be honest about it.
a bit like Frank Marino when he says today that's it's not his fault about the Hendrix revisitation legend, it all got started by others.... take a look at the concerts he played in the 70's with at least two Hendrix covers, plus a Star-Sprangled banner and playing with his teeth.
And despite their respective bad faith, both Tori and Frank are still in my tastes for music....
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 08:26
| and Kate Bushs biggest influence is Elton John, just for the facts of bring in the influence, the most suprrising things might come to the light. |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 08:41
It's an opinion, just as viable as the others mentioned here. I guess there are some that would both dislike and argue against placing Kate Bush inside the singer/songwriter goes art pop category Tori undeniably is a part of too. My original point is that it's not a good option to start moving artists around due to the fact that some think they sound like each other. Following that line of logic, Deyss in Neo should be thrown straight into symphonic for instance, as one of the most blatant Genesis copyists around they surely should be placed where the band they copy are placed as well - following that reasoning. To take one of the more obscure examples from our database. Give me some time and I could probably provide scores of similar cases, most of them probably even better than this one. If Kate Bush were to be given an evaluation I probably would have voted for a move to Crossover. But due her artistic merits, and not because she sounds like this or that artist, or that we already have an artist sounding just about like her in our turf from before. Songs, compositions and arrangements is what matters, not what artists other than the one evaluated sounds like. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 08:49
I have no problem with that. I would only like to see KB in xover if she deserves to be too. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 08:57
Of course any clarification and affirmation of what is Prog Related will impact on all Prog-subgenres to some extent and any definition, however tight or well scripted, will be open to differing interpretations but the definition that John has put together will go a long way to minimise those effects.
I haven't seen too much evidence of that - rarely do we adopt compromise solutions or buckle under undue pressure - of course there will always be disagreement in the final outcome, but it doesn't follow that those who still disagree 'avoided the confrontaion'.
The simularities between them are superficial and coincidental (and lazy journalism). Happy Rhodes sounds like Kate Bush, nowhere and no how does she sound like Tori Amos - you'd have thought that an American singer "doing a Kate" would sound as much like Tori as Kate by way of accent, singing style, culture, background, age, etc etc, but she doesn't. Tori Amos's musical style is more Americana/Baroque Pop than the undeniable English Art-Rock of Kate Bush - their relative musicianship and compositional styles are leagues apart and completely unrelated.
We've all seen the supposed 'visual' simularities of image, the most infamous being the cover of Little Earthquakes vs. the US cover for The Kick Inside:
/wiki/File:Kbtki.jpg">
 /wiki/File:Lecover-big.jpg"> but they are just pictures and say nothing about the music, or make any claims about cloning or copying - it's just co-incidence of art-direction that are often beyond the control of the artist themselves. If there were tracks, songs, lyrics or tunes where you could say - that's copying Kate Bush or that's influenced by Kate Bush - then there would be some foundation in the comparisons, but the best anyone has come up with are a pair of obscure b-sides, "My Lagan Love" and "Song for Eric". I find that tenuous (especially as Lagan is a trad. tune with Bush lyrics). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 09:41
I did actually. Just reiterating my position on the issue.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 10:56
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For comparisons sake: Cloudbusting (Bush) ----------------------------------------------- Bouncing Off Clouds (Amos) More or less random choice of vids - picked these as the song titles are similar. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 21 2010 at 07:01
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Er, what is crossover prog in the first place? It's not even a defined style, like symph, zeuhl, krautrock, canterbury, jr/f. It would be far simpler to have one umbrella category of PR and put them all in that basket because, as with Tori Amos, they don't seem to belong to a defined sub genre and often don't seem to be full blown prog either (again, none of the Tori albums I have heard are). And I don't see why there should be any pejorative connotations to the word prog-related but the presence of Metallica and Iron Maiden in that sub genre perhaps brings its 'esteem' down. But they should by all rights be in progressive metal anyway, being that they were more progressive than quite a few bands already in the PM sub genre and made their classic albums several years before "prog metal as we know it" came into being.
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Posted By: Battlepriest
Date Posted: August 24 2010 at 19:37
More or less agreed. Ideally (to my thinking), the category Art Rock should be restored, with PR and Crossover (and perhaps Proto) absorbed into it. I don't think there can be a definitive answer to the question of whether or not most of these bands are truly "prog". The conceit that someone (or some group) is qualified to make that distinction seems to grow weaker with each addition to either category -- which is why I started the topic in the first place. With few exceptions (who perhaps should be in other categories anyway), art rock describes all the PR and CP artists well enough for a site of this scope. It's simply my opinion though. I'm moving on and just mentally classifying them both as art rock anyway. Good discussion though, and I appreciate everyone who took the time to comment. |