BaldFriede wrote: I miss the airplanes.

Very sick indeed!!!!!!

Ok Friede,your wish is my command:

Removed!!

gdub411 wrote: ...w**kers!!

Tell that to the man who put them on the front lawn. He's the one with the bad taste, not I.

gdub411 wrote: ...w**kers!!

walkers???

I dont understand.....

Do you mean Fokkers?

Not really. He could be expressing that he loves the United States, as a sort of unoffical memorial to all that died that day. Granted I would never do something like that, and even though all this sh*t that is happening i still love the grand USA.

And that is really inappropiate (Directed towards BaldFriede). And the same could be said to Tony R, but being it wasn't his idea i shall not.

Man With Hat wrote: Not really. He could be expressing that he loves the United States, as a sort of unoffical memorial to all that died that day. Granted I would never do something like that, and even though all this sh*t that is happening i still love the grand USA. And that is really inappropiate (Directed towards BaldFriede). And the same could be said to Tony R, but being it wasn't his idea i shall not.

Well I posted the picture.................so I will take the fall....

Tony R wrote: BaldFriede wrote: I miss the airplanes. Very sick indeed!!!!!! Ok Friede,your wish is my command: Ah well, it's not like anyone likes me..so what's to lose!!

Tony you are a Devil and a comic genious

ha ha baldfried!!!!


almost as funny as when we firebombed the sh*t out of dresden!

NetsNJFan wrote: ha ha baldfried!!!! almost as funny as when we firebombed the sh*t out of dresden!

It seems as if you misunderstood my comment. My opinion is it is absolutely tasteless to put images of the world trade center in front of your house. To underline that I made the comment about the airplanes. And don't tell me the image is there to commiserate the people who died in the world trade center. What would you say if I put an image of Auschwitz or Dachau in front of my house to commiserate the people who died there?

Sweetnighter wrote: I got this picture off of a thread from SomethingAwful.com, of which i have recently become a forum member. There is a 100+ post discussion on this picture... not on its morality, or on why its there... but on how best to fly two remote control airplanes into the fake towers. They're discussing dressing people up as airplanes and videotaping themselves bodyslamming the towers as well. Just to give you an idea of how big these towers are, look at the house behind them and compare height. These towers are a good 20 feet tall. Because they have stood on the front lawn of this person's house for a few months, they must be made of something very durable, such as hardwood or metal. In this discussion, people have  contributed money, suggested planes, suggested ways to napalm the towers by packing RC planes with Styrofoam and Gasoline, suggested buying a cheap $200 sh*t car to dress up as a plane, and have considered filming whatever happens to these two unsuspecting towers in a variety of ways. Truly, truly entertaining.

Which just shows how very right I was with my comment about the missing airplanes. The whole thing is disgusting.

How can someone with the twin towers on their lawn be disgusting? I don't see your point at all lBaldfriede!

The worse thing is your comment about missing the aeroplanes, not the towers.

It would actually be funnier if the towers were burning, and little GI-Joe action figures were seen falling from the highest floor.

(Sue me.)

undefinability wrote: It would actually be funnier if the towers were burning, and little GI-Joe action figures were seen falling from the highest floor.   (Sue me.)

Me Tarzan!

I sincerely doubt anybody would question that it would be disgusting if I had a model of Auschwitz or Dachau on my front lawn. And I would not grant anybody the excuse he only wanted to commiserate the people who had been killed in these concentration camps. Then why is it ok to put a model of the twin towers on the front lawn? To commiserate the victims in there? Sorry, but it is above my head why anybody would put such a tasteless thing on his front lawn.

Sweetnighter wrote: I got this picture off of a thread from SomethingAwful.com, of which i have recently become a forum member. There is a 100+ post discussion on this picture... not on its morality, or on why its there... but on how best to fly two remote control airplanes into the fake towers. They're discussing dressing people up as airplanes and videotaping themselves bodyslamming the towers as well. Just to give you an idea of how big these towers are, look at the house behind them and compare height. These towers are a good 20 feet tall. Because they have stood on the front lawn of this person's house for a few months, they must be made of something very durable, such as hardwood or metal. In this discussion, people have  contributed money, suggested planes, suggested ways to napalm the towers by packing RC planes with Styrofoam and Gasoline, suggested buying a cheap $200 sh*t car to dress up as a plane, and have considered filming whatever happens to these two unsuspecting towers in a variety of ways. Truly, truly entertaining.

Those people are animals...the whole world is sick.

....and Sweetnighter....I am shocked that you consider this entertaining.

Man With Hat wrote: Not really. He could be expressing that he loves the United States, as a sort of unoffical memorial to all that died that day. Granted I would never do something like that, and even though all this sh*t that is happening i still love the grand USA. And that is really inappropiate (Directed towards BaldFriede). And the same could be said to Tony R, but being it wasn't his idea i shall not.

It's kind of what I was thinking as well. It would help if he put some plaque on it or give a reference somewhere what they stand for, but oh well. Perhaps he is trying to remind a timid America at what we lost to these barbarians and we must never forget and never relent with or need to eradicate these sadistic terrorists.

undefinability wrote: It would actually be funnier if the towers were burning, and little GI-Joe action figures were seen falling from the highest floor.   (Sue me.)

Troll!!

BaldJean wrote: Snow Dog wrote: How can someone with the twin towers on their lawn be disgusting? I don't see your point at all lBaldfriede! The worse thing is your comment about missing the aeroplanes, not the towers. Perhaps as an American who has lived in Germany for 12 years now (11 of them with Friede) I can shed some light on why this image is so disgusting for Friede. Most Germans (and Friede is no exception) hate all forms of outwardly displayed patriotism (and this monument seems to be a display of that); the farthest they will go is supporting their national soccer team. This is a little difficult to understand for Americans who usually are very patriotic, but there are historic reasons for it. Germans make patriotism partially responsible for the outbreak of 2 world wars. Anyone who expresses patriotism in Germany is automatically suspected to be an extreme right-winger. For Germans patriotism is a stupid and blind emotion. Americans on the other hand are usually very patriotic, and anyone who is not is suspected to be an extreme left-winger, making most Americans want the committee against Un-Americanism from the 50s back again. Americans who live in Europe tend to lose their patriotism over the years, by the way. It is the same with me. Looking at the state the USA currently is in, with civil liberties radically restricted, an idiotic war in Iran that eats into the budget, thereby wasting money that could be used for a lot more important causes, like education and public welfare, the budgets for arms and secret services way over the top too, and my former fellow countrymen- and women re-electing Bush nevertheless makes it hard to remain patriotic. Anyway, I hope this makes it clear why Friede felt a little uneasy at the sight of this monument. Her comment about the airplanes was ironic. She simply topped something that was disgusting in her eyes with more disgust, a technique used by many satirists. And now enough on this topic.

You've just made German's sound like Vulcan's.

And the only American's I know who have lost their patriotism while living abroad are the ones worried about their lives...  Maybe you've lost your patriotism because you're so connected to Friede that you don't actually see the world thru your own eyes any longer...

undefinability wrote: It would actually be funnier if the towers were burning, and little GI-Joe action figures were seen falling from the highest floor.   (Sue me.)

You're sick!  And I can't believe that's coming from someone in the States, too!

threefates wrote: BaldJean wrote: Snow Dog wrote: How can someone with the twin towers on their lawn be disgusting? I don't see your point at all lBaldfriede! The worse thing is your comment about missing the aeroplanes, not the towers. Perhaps as an American who has lived in Germany for 12 years now (11 of them with Friede) I can shed some light on why this image is so disgusting for Friede. Most Germans (and Friede is no exception) hate all forms of outwardly displayed patriotism (and this monument seems to be a display of that); the farthest they will go is supporting their national soccer team. This is a little difficult to understand for Americans who usually are very patriotic, but there are historic reasons for it. Germans make patriotism partially responsible for the outbreak of 2 world wars. Anyone who expresses patriotism in Germany is automatically suspected to be an extreme right-winger. For Germans patriotism is a stupid and blind emotion. Americans on the other hand are usually very patriotic, and anyone who is not is suspected to be an extreme left-winger, making most Americans want the committee against Un-Americanism from the 50s back again. Americans who live in Europe tend to lose their patriotism over the years, by the way. It is the same with me. Looking at the state the USA currently is in, with civil liberties radically restricted, an idiotic war in Iran that eats into the budget, thereby wasting money that could be used for a lot more important causes, like education and public welfare, the budgets for arms and secret services way over the top too, and my former fellow countrymen- and women re-electing Bush nevertheless makes it hard to remain patriotic. Anyway, I hope this makes it clear why Friede felt a little uneasy at the sight of this monument. Her comment about the airplanes was ironic. She simply topped something that was disgusting in her eyes with more disgust, a technique used by many satirists. And now enough on this topic. You've just made German's sound like Vulcan's. And the only American's I know who have lost their patriotism while living abroad are the ones worried about their lives...  Maybe you've lost your patriotism because you're so connected to Friede that you don't actually see the world thru your own eyes any longer...

Shouldn't you say greedy school boards who'll find a dishonest way of pocketing the money for themselves and leave very little for the benefit of children's education? Also, shouldn't you say the free loaders of america rather than public welfare?

The thing that gets me about the 9/11 incident is I never heard any american person, media or otherwise, ask WHY it happened. There was no questioning, only people demanding eradication. Killing everyone you suspect could be a threat is ultimately going to change NOTHING. People need to think about why such an atrocity would happen, think why there would be enough people who hate the US so much they would go through with this. Yes its smart to try and tear down the organization that did it that much I agree, but to coexist you need to compromise. (Not with al-qeada, DONT misunderstand me, i mean the rest of the world in general).

As for the lawn ornaments, I think its ridiculous and pompous. Like in that persons mind they are challenging someone with those pillars. Probably thinking something along the lines of "Lets see those terrorists knock THESE down." but likely much more racist.

gdub411 wrote: Shouldn't you say greedy school boards who'll find a dishonest way of pocketing the money for themselves and leave very little for the benefit of children's education? Also, shouldn't you say the free loaders of america rather than public welfare?

I hate it when people argue like that, so lets turn it around shall we?

"Shouldn't you say greedy school boards who'll find a dishonest way of pocketing the money for themselves and leave very little for the benefit of children's education?" - Couldnt the same be said for the military, or anything funded in part by the goverment for that matter? Do you know how little teachers/principals are paid? These people are pretty much sacrificing themselves to try make sure our children can learn something, and there is only going to be less and less. So the only people who dont agree are people who dont care about children and would rather an excuse to hate other people.

"Also, shouldn't you say the free loaders of america rather than public welfare?" - There are a lot of people who cheat the welfare system who really have no excuse, and these people piss me off to no end. But also there are people who need it (single mothers with new borns etc..). I lived in poverty when for about 2 years when i was younger because my mother was too proud to accept welfare, it would have helped a lot(we did manage, and my mother did bounce back and shes doing fine, shes a landlord now). I know a lot of people who were hardly raised because thier single parent was always working to pay bills.

Now a lot of that is pretty extreme and unerasonable, just like what gdub posted (im sorry but what you wrote was an attack on my beliefs, and even if it was because you were sore over the innapropriate picture on the first page i cant let it go). As time goes on my view on right wing people has changed a lot, many of my views have become right wing in nature. About a year ago because of the way my life worked out I saw right-wingers as unreliable, self centered snakes who would gladly watch thier own children starve if it meant not having to part with money. Ive matured quite a bit now mind you, but sometimes when something is said that I find ignorant or completely one sided (much like my respones following the blue) my blood boils.

Hangedman wrote: gdub411 wrote: Shouldn't you say greedy school boards who'll find a dishonest way of pocketing the money for themselves and leave very little for the benefit of children's education? Also, shouldn't you say the free loaders of america rather than public welfare? I hate it when people argue like that, so lets turn it around shall we? "Shouldn't you say greedy school boards who'll find a dishonest way of pocketing the money for themselves and leave very little for the benefit of children's education?" - Couldnt the same be said for the military, or anything funded in part by the goverment for that matter? Do you know how little teachers/principals are paid? These people are pretty much sacrificing themselves to try make sure our children can learn something, and there is only going to be less and less. So the only people who dont agree are people who dont care about children and would rather an excuse to hate other people. "Also, shouldn't you say the free loaders of america rather than public welfare?" - There are a lot of people who cheat the welfare system who really have no excuse, and these people piss me off to no end. But also there are people who need it (single mothers with new borns etc..). I lived in poverty when for about 2 years when i was younger because my mother was too proud to accept welfare, it would have helped a lot(we did manage, and my mother did bounce back and shes doing fine, shes a landlord now). I know a lot of people who were hardly raised because thier single parent was always working to pay bills. Now a lot of that is pretty extreme and unerasonable, just like what gdub posted (im sorry but what you wrote was an attack on my beliefs, and even if it was because you were sore over the innapropriate picture on the first page i cant let it go). As time goes on my view on right wing people has changed a lot, many of my views have become right wing in nature. About a year ago because of the way my life worked out I saw right-wingers as unreliable, self centered snakes who would gladly watch thier own children starve if it meant not having to part with money. Ive matured quite a bit now mind you, but sometimes when something is said that I find ignorant or completely one sided (much like my respones following the blue) my blood boils.

Well who do you think funds the school boards? The Government!! Perhaps if the teachers didn't teach from a set ciriculum and were able to dictate their own teachings, maybe I would say it is a noble profession. The teachings are vastly left wing and our children have become enslaved to the left wing ideals once public schools have had a hand in brainwashing them. I do not feel like I should have to fork out more taxes(and as a homeowner I do) because the school district is in need of it. Does any money really go to the schools? I suppose a little....but more of it goes to the school board and the advancing of it's left wing ideas through donations to democrats.

I am sorry you lived in poverty for a couple years. In my opinion it shows much character in your mother and she should be applauded for her strength of will and perseverance. She has risen up from the mires of mediocrity and made something of herself.( I wish I could say the samerfor myself) All without the help of big government holding her hand and whispering into her ear....keep voting democratic and you'll see plenty of more of those checks coming your way.  Isn't that what it is all about?...to encourage mediocrity by keeping them low for a few extra dollars sent from big brother just as long as you keep voting democratic...

I'm sorry....I'll take the big military that protects us from the US haters(and there are many of them) anyday. A weak military invites aggression and I'll have none of that.

Hangedman said, "The thing that gets me about the 9/11 incident is I never heard any american person, media or otherwise, ask WHY it happened."

For me, it's not just "why," but also "who."  Because 19 hijackers with box cutters did not outthink and outwit the entire military and intelligence apparatus of the U.S.  There are two "camps" re to what degree the U.S. - and specific parties in the U.S. - were complicit in the events of 9/11.  There is the "LIH" group and the "MIH" group: i.e., those who believe that Bush et al "let it happen" via negligence or even "turning a blind eye" (just as Roosevelt did with Pearl Harbor), and those who believe that Bush et al "made it happen" - that they were actively involved in the planning and execution.

The "9/11 Commission" was clearly a "sop" to the American public and the world.  Not only did the majority of members of the commission have serious conflicts of interest - including financial ties to the two airlines involved - but the Commission either omitted or ignored a great deal of evidence and testimony.  And that's just for openers...

There is an enormous amount of evidence - real, hard evidence, not just "conspiracy theories" - that raise an enormous number of legitimate questions.  There are plenty of books and Internet sites that shed at least some light on that evidence and those questions.

People globally - and especially in the U.S. - need to "get their heads out of the sand" and start opening up their eyes.  Yes, it is and will be painful, since the truth may be extremely difficult to accept.  But, as they say, sometimes "the truth hurts."  And I'd rather be hurt by the truth than live in and with lies.

Peace.

Hangedman wrote: The thing that gets me about the 9/11 incident is I never heard any american person, media or otherwise, ask WHY it happened. There was no questioning, only people demanding eradication. Killing everyone you suspect could be a threat is ultimately going to change NOTHING. People need to think about why such an atrocity would happen, think why there would be enough people who hate the US so much they would go through with this. Yes its smart to try and tear down the organization that did it that much I agree, but to coexist you need to compromise. (Not with al-qeada, DONT misunderstand me, i mean the rest of the world in general). As for the lawn ornaments, I think its ridiculous and pompous. Like in that persons mind they are challenging someone with those pillars. Probably thinking something along the lines of "Lets see those terrorists knock THESE down." but likely much more racist.

9/11 happend because they're mad at the West, the fact that the Ottoman Empire failed and they view the West as a threat. The WTC Twin Towers were symbol that represented the West. Think about it: finacial trade center, New York.....

Hangedman wrote: The thing that gets me about the 9/11 incident is I never heard any american person, media or otherwise, ask WHY it happened. There was no questioning, only people demanding eradication. Killing everyone you suspect could be a threat is ultimately going to change NOTHING. People need to think about why such an atrocity would happen, think why there would be enough people who hate the US so much they would go through with this. Yes its smart to try and tear down the organization that did it that much I agree, but to coexist you need to compromise. (Not with al-qeada, DONT misunderstand me, i mean the rest of the world in general). As for the lawn ornaments, I think its ridiculous and pompous. Like in that persons mind they are challenging someone with those pillars. Probably thinking something along the lines of "Lets see those terrorists knock THESE down." but likely much more racist.

You must be kidding... I think everyone in NYC asked why.. and we wanted answers... so maybe you should research those stupid things before you write them...

I see you've already built your own propaganda in your head regarding what you think American's wanted.  I have yet to hear anyone who was in the Trade Center or who lost family member's in the Trade Center cry out for eradication of anyone.  And if we were just in this to take out anyone who threatened us... then there wouldn't be much left of Afghanistan or Iran... but then we haven't touched them have we.  Even Khadafy's still running around in one piece.... 

And we know why they hate us... we are on top and we represent evil to them... we care about their enemies, we care about and want more for their women, we live in the 21st Century, while they continue to live in the past... we threaten their manhood, we threaten their religion which is the center of their control anyway... otherwise we threaten their control... we've got that...

As far as the lawn ornament... how do you know this house doesn't belong to a family of someone who was killed in the WTC ?... maybe its a tribute to a fallen love one.  We can't assume just because we think its morbid, to understand the reasoning behind what others do.  Thats usually where all the problems begin...

BaldFriede wrote: I sincerely doubt anybody would question that it would be disgusting if I had a model of Auschwitz or Dachau on my front lawn. And I would not grant anybody the excuse he only wanted to commiserate the people who had been killed in these concentration camps. Then why is it ok to put a model of the twin towers on the front lawn? To commiserate the victims in there? Sorry, but it is above my head why anybody would put such a tasteless thing on his front lawn.

big difference!

the fact that thse towers were upright and not burning shows that it WAS  a patirotic symbol.  the twin towers initially stood for somthing good, and i dont think anything bad is meant by this, even though it may have been tasteless.

however it can't be compared to putting to a model of dachau on your front lawn.  that is a symbol of pure Nazi evil (it would be like having the twin towers WITH the planes and fire).  after 9/11 the symbol of the world trade center was everywhere in america for solidarity, so this is not that weird to see.

(and i think you should put that dachau model up......the germans and eastern europeans have done a very good job of putting their embarrasing nazi past behind them....you should remind them)

eh?

Thanks, Nacho

-------------

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012

Thanks to you Jim, I was worried nobody commented on that beautiful device...

threefates wrote: Hangedman wrote: The thing that gets me about the 9/11 incident is I never heard any american person, media or otherwise, ask WHY it happened. There was no questioning, only people demanding eradication. Killing everyone you suspect could be a threat is ultimately going to change NOTHING. People need to think about why such an atrocity would happen, think why there would be enough people who hate the US so much they would go through with this. Yes its smart to try and tear down the organization that did it that much I agree, but to coexist you need to compromise. (Not with al-qeada, DONT misunderstand me, i mean the rest of the world in general). As for the lawn ornaments, I think its ridiculous and pompous. Like in that persons mind they are challenging someone with those pillars. Probably thinking something along the lines of "Lets see those terrorists knock THESE down." but likely much more racist. You must be kidding... I think everyone in NYC asked why.. and we wanted answers... so maybe you should research those stupid things before you write them... I see you've already built your own propaganda in your head regarding what you think American's wanted.  I have yet to hear anyone who was in the Trade Center or who lost family member's in the Trade Center cry out for eradication of anyone.  And if we were just in this to take out anyone who threatened us... then there wouldn't be much left of Afghanistan or Iran... but then we haven't touched them have we.  Even Khadafy's still running around in one piece....  And we know why they hate us... we are on top and we represent evil to them... we care about their enemies, we care about and want more for their women, we live in the 21st Century, while they continue to live in the past... we threaten their manhood, we threaten their religion which is the center of their control anyway... otherwise we threaten their control... we've got that... As far as the lawn ornament... how do you know this house doesn't belong to a family of someone who was killed in the WTC ?... maybe its a tribute to a fallen love one.  We can't assume just because we think its morbid, to understand the reasoning behind what others do.  Thats usually where all the problems begin...

I was waiting for Threefates to let em have it....she, living so nearby has a whole different viewpoint to shed and i would (while it still made me furious) not be able to muster the kind of emotions and memories that Threefates would be able to present. How anybody can make light a situation as 9/11 and not expect the members from the USA not to be angry is beyond me.

gdub411 wrote: ....not expect the members from the USA not to be angry is beyond me.

That's something I literally don't understand - how the deaths of one's countrymen can be more upsetting than the deaths of anyone else. There must have been people in Canada closer to NYC than people in the US. It doesn't seem at all a rational sort of patriotism I would call myself patriotic, but I don't care about the people in England any more than the people anywhere else. I love my country because it brought me up, and because of its culture and heritage, and I don't think the majority of people today contribute to any of that.

goose wrote: gdub411 wrote: ....not expect the members from the USA not to be angry is beyond me. That's something I literally don't understand - how the deaths of one's countrymen can be more upsetting than the deaths of anyone else. There must have been people in Canada closer to NYC than people in the US. It doesn't seem at all a rational sort of patriotism I would call myself patriotic, but I don't care about the people in England any more than the people anywhere else. I love my country because it brought me up, and because of its culture and heritage, and I don't think the majority of people today contribute to any of that.

i love the U.S., but HATE the way it is going.  Im all for seccession of the northern states right now.

Tony.... shame on you bro... Not funny.

America is NOT the only country being attacked by terrorists. It's not simply, "Hate America." It's clearly about the Westernization of the Middle East. Spain, Russia, France, Germany, U.K. and Israel have ALL had attacks. It's a WORLD issue.  

The Mullahs control over people and their traditional ways were slipping away. Religion IS their government. Women DON'T get to vote. Children DON'T get to read about world history, fictional literature, sports, music and all those things you and I love so much. They see Israel first as having a negative impact. US and Europe are close behind.

Imagine, on a microscopic scale, you have a community that is tightly control, under your power. Another neighborhood sprouts up on the next block, but they have few controls. People are allowed to be free, do as they wish, seem to always have fun, dress very scantily..... you get the picture, Suddenly, your children want to act like them. Your wife wants to have a say in family issues. You complain to the neighbors, but they give you money & say, "be like us." Some of the people in your neighborhood start moving to their neighborhood or inviting THOSE people of for barbecues. So you build a wall to keep your children and wife away. You shut them off from the real world... you grow angry. You want them to stop, to go away.... you attack.

Yeah, it's simplistic, but I really see that as a REAL motivation.

danbo wrote: Tony.... shame on you bro... Not funny.   America is NOT the only country being attacked by terrorists. It's not simply, "Hate America." It's clearly about the Westernization of the Middle East. Spain, Russia, France, Germany, U.K. and Israel have ALL had attacks. It's a WORLD issue.   The Mullahs control over people and their traditional ways were slipping away. Religion IS their government. Women DON'T get to vote. Children DON'T get to read about world history, fictional literature, sports, music and all those things you and I love so much. They see Israel first as having a negative impact. US and Europe are close behind. Imagine, on a microscopic scale, you have a community that is tightly control, under your power. Another neighborhood sprouts up on the next block, but they have few controls. People are allowed to be free, do as they wish, seem to always have fun, dress very scantily..... you get the picture, Suddenly, your children want to act like them. Your wife wants to have a say in family issues. You complain to the neighbors, but they give you money & say, "be like us." Some of the people in your neighborhood start moving to their neighborhood or inviting THOSE people of for barbecues. So you build a wall to keep your children and wife away. You shut them off from the real world... you grow angry. You want them to stop, to go away.... you attack. Yeah, it's simplistic, but I really see that as a REAL motivation.

great post.  people bash israel endlessly but the fact is its the only modern democratic country in the middle east/north africa with religous and political freedom.

I would like to add to what threefates said.

Although I have my own beliefs about what really happened on 9/11, let me assume for a moment that the "official" story is true: that 19 mostly Saudi terrorists hijacked four planes and flew two of them into the WTC towers, killing about 2,500 people between those in the planes and those in the buildings.

It is interesting to note, as threefates says, that, despite New York City being the primary target of the 9/11 attacks, when military action against Afghanistan, and especially Iraq, were being discussed - even before those actions took place - fully 75% of Manhattanites and over 65% of New Yorkers were against it.  And while we can sort of understand the action in Afghanistan - which was (at least ostensibly) primarily targeted at Al Qaeda - we remain outraged that the 9/11 attacks were used by the Bush Administration to engage in an aggressive, unprovoked, pre-emptive war on Saddam Hussein.

Peace.

Sweetnighter wrote: I don't think that terrorists attacked the United States because "we want freedom for their women" or any of that bullsh*t. Do we want freedom for their women? Yes, of course. Is that a good thing? I would certainly think so. But thats not why they attacked. Radical islamic fundamentalists attacked the United States, particular the Trade Towers, because they represented how the US has been totally disregarding the soverignty and culture of middle east nations for decades and decades! No american can deny this. We've done a number of things to piss them off over the years. CIA helped the Shah rise to power in the 50s. US quickly recognized the young Israeli state in '48, seriously pissing off a number of countries. Iranian hostage crisis. Oil embargos as a result of US support of the israeli wars. Iranian hostage crisis. Support of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war in the 80s. Supporting the mujahadin in fighting the Soviets. The commercialization of the middle east by American interests. I'm not saying all of these things aggravated them or that we shouldn't have done some of these things, but we have been involved in their land spreading our values for quite a long time. As you all know from having debated with me before, you know I am in no way one of those self-American-hating liberals who thinks that the country is going down the tube, but I have to be realistic. The American Government is too involved in international affairs, period. Not just that, but Americans see things in such a narrow perspective. Americans saw the Vietnam conflict as a part of the Cold War and the domino theory. It wasn't at all, it was a civil war/war of independence for the Vietnamese! This is the same as whats going on today. Terrorists are not just attacking us because they don't like what we represent, but because they want us the f**k off of their land.

You might be right or not, but at least you are thinking!

Sweetnighter wrote: ... Radical islamic fundamentalists attacked the United States, particular the Trade Towers, because they represented how the US has been totally disregarding the soverignty and culture of middle east nations for decades and decades! ... We've done a number of things to piss them off over the years... ...The American Government is too involved in international affairs, period. Not just that, but Americans see things in such a narrow perspective. Americans saw the Vietnam conflict as a part of the Cold War and the domino theory. It wasn't at all, it was a civil war/war of independence for the Vietnamese! This is the same as whats going on today. Terrorists are not just attacking us because they don't like what we represent, but because they want us the f**k off of their land.

 If this isn't the truth, it is at least very close to the truth!

BaldJean wrote: Snow Dog wrote: How can someone with the twin towers on their lawn be disgusting? I don't see your point at all lBaldfriede! The worse thing is your comment about missing the aeroplanes, not the towers. Perhaps as an American who has lived in Germany for 12 years now (11 of them with Friede) I can shed some light on why this image is so disgusting for Friede. Most Germans (and Friede is no exception) hate all forms of outwardly displayed patriotism (and this monument seems to be a display of that); the farthest they will go is supporting their national soccer team. This is a little difficult to understand for Americans who usually are very patriotic, but there are historic reasons for it. Germans make patriotism partially responsible for the outbreak of 2 world wars. Anyone who expresses patriotism in Germany is automatically suspected to be an extreme right-winger. For Germans patriotism is a stupid and blind emotion. Americans on the other hand are usually very patriotic, and anyone who is not is suspected to be an extreme left-winger, making most Americans want the committee against Un-Americanism from the 50s back again. Americans who live in Europe tend to lose their patriotism over the years, by the way. It is the same with me. Looking at the state the USA currently is in, with civil liberties radically restricted, an idiotic war in Iran that eats into the budget, thereby wasting money that could be used for a lot more important causes, like education and public welfare, the budgets for arms and secret services way over the top too, and my former fellow countrymen- and women re-electing Bush nevertheless makes it hard to remain patriotic. Anyway, I hope this makes it clear why Friede felt a little uneasy at the sight of this monument. Her comment about the airplanes was ironic. She simply topped something that was disgusting in her eyes with more disgust, a technique used by many satirists. And now enough on this topic.

Well said!

Hangedman wrote: The thing that gets me about the 9/11 incident is I never heard any american person, media or otherwise, ask WHY it happened. There was no questioning, only people demanding eradication. Killing everyone you suspect could be a threat is ultimately going to change NOTHING. People need to think about why such an atrocity would happen, think why there would be enough people who hate the US so much they would go through with this. Yes its smart to try and tear down the organization that did it that much I agree, but to coexist you need to compromise. (Not with al-qeada, DONT misunderstand me, i mean the rest of the world in general). As for the lawn ornaments, I think its ridiculous and pompous. Like in that persons mind they are challenging someone with those pillars. Probably thinking something along the lines of "Lets see those terrorists knock THESE down." but likely much more racist.

I agree with you on both points!

(I'm glad there are people here who think almost exactly the same things as me, that way I don't have to explain them... )

At the risk of creating an uproar among my US buddies on this site, I'll have to agree with Hangedman that the real reason why this 9/11 thing happened is and will always be shunned/obscured by the right-winged forces of the US who litteraly dictates what goes on in the news as to present only the American side of the story!

Please bear in mind that the following in only partially my thoughts but most of it comes from discussing this with all the people (this includes US citizens but also Africans and Arabs) in the last almost four years and wondering the WHY it happened!

If you are to consider the targets aimed at on 9/11 , you have one plane who did minor damage to the Armed Forces by missing almost the Pentagon building but they hit the US forces at the heart and symbolically this was right on target (uhmmmm....Too easy......Sorry about that !!)

The other two planes were aimed at the very economical center who allows 85% percent of world resources to be the ownership of less than 5% of the world population. In that regard, this target was also symbolically very strong and justified in a dirty war against Imperialim  (CIA and US imperialism doing not much different in the other direction, albeit more discreet due to the enormous economic interest aimed at ) .

The facts that some innocent got killed is certainly unfortunate into the terrorist's eyes - the Firemen and Coffee ladies and Janitors are innocent of living of this Imperialist machine that was installed at WTC - but all of the other workers were living off this money grubbing machine. This is almost a cold war communist target, and those terrorists (admittedly Al Qaeda) aimed right on target at the US and World Imperialism, so much that 70's Red Brigades would've loved to shoot at had they the possibily of doing so, but this would've created global nuclear warfare given the context.

As fot that fourth plane, probably heading for Washington but not able to for some reason, one can be sure it got shot down by the USAF  and it did not crash because of a revolt as was hinted in the medias. And the USAF would have every right to do so in avoiding this plane making another huge massacre. But they chose to lie about it in order to make Americans proud of themselves by saying they chose sacrifice willingly and avoid maybe lawsuits from families.

I would certainly say peace , but as I said I am taking a risk at a lot of people being upset by my post. Wisdom would dictate me to avoid this debate , but I feel someone should once in a while see a more neutral side of things.

Go ahead , shoot your venom at me!

danbo wrote: Tony.... shame on you bro... Not funny.

The alteration I made to the picture was a view I took about the ridiculous nature of the "garden ornament". A "tasteless" swipe at the lack of "taste" employed by the owner.The image of the Twin Towers is inextricably linked,by history,to the two aeroplanes (and of course much worse)

I did not mean to cause "real offence" and somehow feel that this reaction was unnecessary,if predictable. You dont seriously believe that I applaud or condone the disgraceful events of that day.....do you?

The events of that day were a crime against human beings by human beings-of course the setting is important and crucial as to why these disgusting crimes were perpertrated,but a crime against all of us,nonetheless.This is what you Americans seem to forget-we are in this together,in fact there is no "we" only "us."

I can only speak for myself,but any perceived America bashing on this forum,is just that "perception." The America that we take issue with is more symbolic than real.It is the notion of misuse of power and corporate bullying,that inevitably can be found in all countries.The reality lies with you,the citizens,whose hopes and aspirations are no different than any other forum member from anywhere in the world.When we criticise America it is usually because we have been invited or led to offer opinion.Human nature being human nature, we tend to focus on the negative and the stereotype, often depending on our personalities.
The other day a friend asked me about my daughter,the first thing I replied with was that she has become surly and argumentative-we went on to discuss our children in a quite negative way....

Does that mean that we hate our kids..............????

Sweetnighter wrote: I don't think that terrorists attacked the United States because "we want freedom for their women" or any of that bullsh*t. Do we want freedom for their women? Yes, of course. Is that a good thing? I would certainly think so. But thats not why they attacked. Radical islamic fundamentalists attacked the United States, particular the Trade Towers, because they represented how the US has been totally disregarding the soverignty and culture of middle east nations for decades and decades! No american can deny this. We've done a number of things to piss them off over the years. CIA helped the Shah rise to power in the 50s. US quickly recognized the young Israeli state in '48, seriously pissing off a number of countries. Iranian hostage crisis. Oil embargos as a result of US support of the israeli wars. Iranian hostage crisis. Support of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war in the 80s. Supporting the mujahadin in fighting the Soviets. The commercialization of the middle east by American interests. I'm not saying all of these things aggravated them or that we shouldn't have done some of these things, but we have been involved in their land spreading our values for quite a long time. As you all know from having debated with me before, you know I am in no way one of those self-American-hating liberals who thinks that the country is going down the tube, but I have to be realistic. The American Government is too involved in international affairs, period. Not just that, but Americans see things in such a narrow perspective. Americans saw the Vietnam conflict as a part of the Cold War and the domino theory. It wasn't at all, it was a civil war/war of independence for the Vietnamese! This is the same as whats going on today. Terrorists are not just attacking us because they don't like what we represent, but because they want us the f**k off of their land.

100% agree,well put Sweetnighter!

Sweetnighter wrote: maani wrote: I would like to add to what threefates said. Although I have my own beliefs about what really happened on 9/11, let me assume for a moment that the "official" story is true: that 19 mostly Saudi terrorists hijacked four planes and flew two of them into the WTC towers, killing about 2,500 people between those in the planes and those in the buildings. It is interesting to note, as threefates says, that, despite New York City being the primary target of the 9/11 attacks, when military action against Afghanistan, and especially Iraq, were being discussed - even before those actions took place - fully 75% of Manhattanites and over 65% of New Yorkers were against it.  And while we can sort of understand the action in Afghanistan - which was (at least ostensibly) primarily targeted at Al Qaeda - we remain outraged that the 9/11 attacks were used by the Bush Administration to engage in an aggressive, unprovoked, pre-emptive war on Saddam Hussein. Peace. Well said. There was absolutely no link between Al Qaeda and Hussein. I'm glad Hussein is gone, but now we've opened up a whole new can of worms. Does anybody really think that 9/11 was rigged by the Bush Administration? I think thats a little conspiracy theorist. If Bush had been found out, it would've been... wow, i mean can you imagine? A democratically elected president attacking its own people? I mean, the republican party would have been buried. I don't know... it doesn't make sense on too many levels.

Yet again I agree 100%!

I am sort of pleased that right-winger Gdub and Sweetnighter (see the political compass thread) do not see I to I in this matter, somehow giving me hope that US might change their imperial attitude someday!

As for the guy with the Twin Towers on his front lawn , he is almost begging for someone to set fire to it. I can understand some people not agreeing with 9/11 (I am one of them ) but this is almost provocation and dumb mindless patriotism. This is a reason why I smirked at the opening fire remarks !!

It's really good to see that at the end we almost agree in such a sensitive matter.

Now, Sean, I like your explanation as to why the 9/11 took place, but I find a big flaw on it: it was the same people who did the 3/11 in Madrid 30 months after, and that attack was aimed at innocent people (most of them on their way to work), and not at any symbol of Spanish power.

We then assumed it was our former president's support to the Iraq invasion that had targeted us (that, together with the pathetic attempts of that government to make us believe for several days just before the elections that it was an ETA -Basque separatists- attack was the main reason why the Socialist Party won the elections). However, some investigations seem to indicate that we were a target for Al Qaeda before the Iraq affair... Maybe just because Spain was a muslim country centuries ago...

goose wrote: Is that not 11/3?

March 11th. Everybody was using the month/day format (9/11) and I did the same (3/11) although in Spain we normally use day/month (11/3).

Actually , the 3/11 incidents have absolutely no relation to the 9/11 attack.

Although the Al Qaeda org has been attributed both (I am still waiting for them to endorse 9/11, as in my rememberance , no-one has claimed responsability on such an horror) , the first one can be seen as an attack against imperialism but the second one was simply a get-out-of-our- country thing/warning: ie you hurt us , this is what we can do to you, please get out! Symbolically innocent people would've had to die since Iraq although under a tyrant rule was innocent of what the Bush administration accused them of.

This is again my reading of those events but discussed with a great many people coming from all horizons/cultures.

You speak of your president but I assume you mean your prime minister! This muslim military reconsquita problably exist thru some hard-liner muslim (but not likely to happen), but if they are to reconquer Europe , they will do it thru immigration and procreation: there are some hints of this plan existing , but no proof!

Sean Trane wrote: You speak of your president but I assume you mean your prime minister!

The official position in Spain is President of the Government (many of us would like to have a President of the Republic, but...). I guess that's totally equivalent to the Prime Minister in other countries.

I think it's time to go back to mellotrons...