Why Waters Left the Floyd's !!
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Topic: Why Waters Left the Floyd's !!
Posted By: trackstoni
Subject: Why Waters Left the Floyd's !!
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 03:24
 Why Waters Left His Team in Your Opinion ! I Wasn't there ! But , I Would Like To Hear Yur Opinions !
------------- Tracking Tracks of Rock |
Replies:
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 03:34
| Self-centered whiner with daddy issues decided he could moan alone. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 03:45
Because his genius was underappreciated by his less talented band mates
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 04:37
As Waters was considering a solo career, because his ideas were not getting much response (Wright was kicked out, Mason was racing cars and Gilmour objected to Roger's project, he also realized that his solo albums would never stand a chance and get recognition, while the Pink Floyd name was still alive . AZnd since (he thought) that he wxas the only contributing and writing songs since Animals
So in order to be widely accepted, it became obvious that he had to kill Floyd, much the same way Sting did with The Police. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:Posted By: arnoldlayne
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:21
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Having read extensively on this subject, I've come to the following conclusions:
The Floyd as a band started to disintegrate after the success of Dark Side Of The Moon. As Waters himself I think put it, "Once you've cracked it, it's all over." Anyway. Wish You Were Here is a clear indication that things were starting to get tricky, with an apparent atmos in the studio of "nobody really looking anyone else in the eye". Animals is the breaking point really though. Rick Wright (RIP) was struggling with a drug habit and not really pulling his weight it seems, and by this time Mason may have just settled in for the ride. Gilmour & Waters were both still fully engaged I'd say, but starting to pull in different directions.
From there it was pretty much inevitable. True, Waters started to push out other people's material, but I think it wasn't just egomania - in his own way I think he was trying to keep quality control high. Having listened to both Gilmour & Wright's solo albums from 78, probably only a few songs might have made it onto a Floyd album even if Waters had been more accomodating.
The Wall settled it. Again, Waters probably felt he was carrying the lot of them by then. They lost enormous amounts of money through bad investments and were facing a huge tax bill and possible bankcruptcy it seems, and their next album had to be a big seller or else. Waters was the only one to come up with much material it seems and if he ranted a bit to get his own way, I'd say history favours him on this - the album made millions and saved their bacon without selling out (really, it was a risky album to realise when you need to make money).
After that he was always going to be top dog or nothing, really. In a way, can you blame him? After all, the final two Pink Floyd albums are nice, brilliant in places, but they do lack the emotional punch Waters carries with him.
Finally, I'd just like to say that if you grew up without a father figure, I'd say that qualifies you as being allowed to have a whinge. Doesn't seem to have done too much harm to Eminem's career either. In a way, it's better to have a whinge than to keep it all in and end up a loose cannon like Raoul Moat.
Do you know, I may have kicked something off here!
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Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:32
Now wait a minute, I'm the one who usually says that!   ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:37
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Did he leave? You can't leave a band that has been retired and doesn't exist. Question should be why did he disband Pink Floyd. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:38
If we follow this logic, then Pink Floyd doesn't exist anymore ever since Syd left. ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:40
sigh Syd left Floyd he didn't disband them. I'm fed up with this. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:44
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^ Didn't Floyd leave Syd rather than Syd left Floyd? Anyway, who needs Floyd when we've got Flaming Lips? |
Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:44
An Waters left and didn't disband Floyd either. He might have tried, but he failed miserably (as usual) ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 05:45
Who needs Floyd when we've got... (fill in ANY band name!) ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 06:13
But there were no members besides Waters. Ok you have your truth I have mine. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 06:18
Dream on! I'd like to see Waters do all those great guitar solos. He can't even play bass anyway. ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 06:54
------------- ''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.'' - Albert Camus |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 07:37
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Animals was an album built around two songs that didn't make it onto WYWH (Raving and Drooling" and "Gotta Be Crazy") with new songs written by Waters. Rick Wright observed that this was the beginning of Waters ego trips where he believed he was the sole writer for the band and the reason it was still going. For the next album Water presented demos of two concepts to the band, one became The Wall and the other The Pros And Cons Of Hitch Hiking. It is impossible to tell whether Pros and Cons would have been more successful as a Pink Floyd album, but I think it is most likely given the comparative (chart) success of The Final Cut.
By all accounts the recording of The Final Cut was stressful for all concerned, including Michael Kamen who had worked with Floyd on The Wall and Waters on Pros And Cons. He would later go on to work with both Waters and Gilmour on their (live) solo careers and with Floyd on The Division Bell, one of the few from that time who managed that. The rift between Waters and the rest of the band was so vast that he considered releasing the album under his own name. It is evident from that that he considered the band "a spent force" at that time.
When Waters announced he was leaving and that meant the band was over. Gilmour's reaction was that he and Mason would continue without him.
A Momentary Lapse shows signs of the disruption caused by Waters and the legal battle that was fought during the recording. As far as Waters was concerned Pink Floyd had disbanded and Gilmour and Mason should not continue to record under that name, (for legal reasons Wright was not allowed to be a member of the band), and he was taking legal action to stop the recording. Not only did it affect Wright and Mason's ability to play (their contribution on the album is minimal), it also affected Gilmour's ability to write and dented his self-confidence in the whole process. To say that Lapse is a bad Floyd album would be inaccurate, that it was made at all is more significant. It also out-sold The Final Cut and Radio K.A.O.S. which again says something for the selling power of the name rather than its content.
I think The Division Bell reflects the more relaxed atmosphere in the band, even though the central theme of communication is a reference to the problems of seven years earlier, with songs like "What Do You Want From Me" and "Keep Talking". By this time, Water's criticism of the band seem more like sour grapes and sniping.
------------- What? |
Posted By: genbanks
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 07:53
I think that the main reason is because he is a megalomaniac. All the time he was trying to concentrate the control over the overall band universe, more and more. I can understand that he was the concept designer of Pink Floyd. He brought the stronger ideas and the lyrics. But in a musical way he was mainly weak and repetitive. He couldn’t accept different points o view. Finally The Final Cut is not a Pink Floyd album. As the cover says is a Requiem composed by Roger Waters and performed by Pink Floyd. Of course that his personality destroyed Wright and then Mason. He couldn’t destroyed Gilmour despite he maybe humiliated him in the Final Cut. He thought that he was the owner of the band and maybe that after a time he could survive it again only by his own. Time demonstrates that finally he loss the game. As other bands (like Genesis) Pink Floyd shown their best when Waters, Gilmour and Wright joined their efforts in the songwriting. Dark side of the moon and Wish you were here demonstrates this clearly. If not see the ranks on this site. I think that Division Bell is much closer of the Pink Floyd sound than the Waters solo albums. Of course it lacks the underlying Waters concept, but musically is far better. |
Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 08:27
Quote ( I think that the main reason is because he is a megalomaniac. All the time he was trying to concentrate the control over the overall band universe, more and more. I can understand that he was the concept designer of Pink Floyd. He brought the stronger ideas and the lyrics. But in a musical way he was mainly weak and repetitive. He couldn’t accept different points o view. Finally The Final Cut is not a Pink Floyd album. As the cover says is a Requiem composed by Roger Waters and performed by Pink Floyd. Of course that his personality destroyed Wright and then Mason. He couldn’t destroyed Gilmour despite he maybe humiliated him in the Final Cut. He thought that he was the owner of the band and maybe that after a time he could survive it again only by his own. Time demonstrates that finally he loss the game. As other bands (like Genesis) Pink Floyd shown their best when Waters, Gilmour and Wright joined their efforts in the songwriting. Dark side of the moon and Wish you were here demonstrates this clearly. If not see the ranks on this site. I think that Division Bell is much closer of the Pink Floyd sound than the Waters solo albums. Of course it lacks the underlying Waters concept, but musically is far better. ) Unquote The Truth , nothing but the Truth ------------- Tracking Tracks of Rock |
Why Waters Left His Team in Your Opinion ! I Wasn't there ! But , I Would Like To Hear Yur Opinions !
Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:13
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I think "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" best demonstrates what Pink Floyd can achieve with the input of all the members. It was possibly the zenith of their combined efforts, and remains my favorite track to this day. If, as others have posted, the relationships became strained and soured, then it is no anomaly in music, the arts, and humanity in general that it was impossible to continue together. Thankfully, Roger continues to tour and, I can say from experience, that he is every bit as good performing their material live as the whole group.
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Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:23
Floyd after Waters  The name should never of .been used again .They where really just the David Gilmour Band and not really a very good one ether, Funny after Gilmour stopped using the Floyd name he finally made a good album On a Island . ------------- 
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:24
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Yes he's a great lyricist and an ok musician but he thinks he's alot more. I love the guy with all my heart but from what I hear no other member was "contributing" because Waters shot them down, mainly Wright. The reason he left is self-centeredness but I'm sure he was in the heat of the moment.
Going to see him live in October  ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:25
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From the reading I've done, I think he simply tired of carrying the others and fighting with people who were not able or willing to contribute much anymore. By Gilmour's own admission he was a lazy songwriter. He didn't do his part, and were it not for what others see as "tyrannical behaviour" by Waters, there would not have been all of those monster albums to enjoy. Someone had to keep the pressure on to *work*, and without Roger's willingness to be unpopular to the others, the band would have slipped much sooner into domesticity, sailing, and cars/golf. Sure, Waters no doubt was a huge ego and not very diplomatic, but these are symptoms of the underlying problem, not the problem itself. That is not to diminish the musical talents of Gilmour and Wright, they are formidable at what they gave the group. But without Roger, you are left with the mediocrity of Momentary Lapse, etc. |
Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:32
I think you have that backwards. Also seeing him in Denver in November. I've seen him twice before, and Floyd twice before, and let me reassure you: he is just as good as the whole band together. His bass is the most penetrating live bass I have ever experienced. Prepare to be penetrated!
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Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 12:02
LOL, you're joking,right? "Axe" is nothing more than a jam (hence credits for all band members) and any fool can play the same two notes for eight minutes. ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 19:34
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I totally oppose any insult to Roger. He is Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd was nothing before Syd Left. Psychadelic bullsh*t, decent for that, but punchless. When the band was democratic they sucked even worst. Only when Roger took charge and began writing material "selfishly" did the greatest rock works come to life. Roger had a vision, a conscience and an intelligent plan. Gilmour, the only other serious writer in the Floyd, was completely groundless and incapable when it came to writing ART and not just music. Roger made his guitar work meaningful. When Roger left David HIRED a bunch of great writers and they put together a MUSICAL copycat of Pink Floyd that is quite good, but misses the intellectual points of Floyd as seen in Rog's works Pros and Cons and Amused to Death. Rog's show is brilliant by the way. |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 19:37
I always thought his lyrics were awesome...  ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 11 2010 at 19:51
What gives Roger the ability to unilaterally disband Pink Floyd? And technically I think Pink Floyd left Syd, although I can see why you're tired of arguing when your position is factually incorrect... ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 00:53
Very one sided view of things.Waters was not a great musician and he needed Gilmour , Wright and Mason more than they needed him and history shows that imo.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 01:15
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Let's view this from a simpleton's perspective for a minute......................They were all geniuses, including Mason. You do not become Pink Floyd for nothing. Another thing we bandstand and throw opinions that really mean diddley squat. Water's left Floyd because he had issues and a huge ego. He has admitted as much and regrets his angst........................BUT how many genius works have been created from members of bands in their prime when ego's and creativity was at the peak. UK band The Verve are a classic example.
Waters is as much Floyd as was Wright, Mason and Gilmour even in the latter years.
Reads Dean's comments above, says it all really
 Rave on Waters, rave on Gilmour, rave on Wright and rave on Mason ( besides I am glad Animals came out the way it did) ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 01:27
waters? itellectual? if he were a writer he would not be a writer of great literature. he would be a memoirist writing books along the same line as "A Million Little Pieces"... Great, Interesting, Powerfull.... yet full of contradictions and exaggerations and unbearably repetitive.
Also, had the Floyd disbanded after pipers they would be sitting over in canterburry and not space rock and would likely be considered a long lost gem. Syd was a great songwriter. His solo work has never made me as depressed as waters solo work does. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:09
Good points, Roy, Prolie. Finally, someone who sees that Roger is only an average lyricist. I am a big Waters/Floyd fan, but a realist. After all, it's the slight imperfections that give music a human warmth.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 13:30
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To compare just how much Floyd were not without Waters, you only have to listen to Amused To Death and compare it to MLOR & The Division Bell. The latter two are ordinary, whilst the former is utter genius. They were a great collective, but most certainly missed Waters lyrical and creative input after the collective egos basically tore the band apart. I would imagine that all would now admit to having played a part in that. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: nordwind
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 14:26
The same Roger Waters who spit on fans in Toronto .  ------------- Jazz isn't dead.......it just smells funny. Frank Zappa / Live in New York |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 14:28
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Who cares!!!! Yes and Rush are still touring after 900 yrs together, and making great music still.......Pink Floyd died after DSOTM...what about 1974ish?? -------------   
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 14:31
It was the whole anonymous stadium rock experience he was spitting upon, with ignorants screaming at him to play certain tracks whilst trying to play new music from Animals. Don't complain about it - at the end of the day, it did bring about The Wall, one of the greatest albums of all time ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Klogg
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 14:32
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Why Waters entered Floyd !!!! Syd was much better. He wasn't a genius, but his music was very better to hear. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 14:55
He was fighting a cold....it was snot, phlehm, he was clearing from his throat -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 15:39
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To the thread starter, i'll put by memory an interview that i read from Gilmour in Guitar Player in 92 or 93. Gilmour said that Waters and him start to arguing about many many things regarding the music, he felt that DSOTM was musically a product of all, but he didn't like as much as WYWH because Roger's need to put his lyrics over the music, that's why he (Gilmour) view DSOTM a forced job and WYWH the zenith of PF.
He made some remarks about the recordings sessions of the Animals album, for example he did a great guitar solo in Pigs and Dogs, he did not mention what take but later came Roger and wipe them out, so he have to do another, when the interviewer ask him that Waters action was on purpose? he replied "by Mistake".
Also Bob Ezrin (producer of the Wall) said to GP that in the recording sessions of The Wall the relation between Roger and David was in a verge to collapse that in a italian restaurant, he stop what could be a real physical fight between them.
When a partnership come close as that, very little is to know why the classic PF were apart.
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:28
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it was the same with Dire Straits and Knoplers willing to control EVERYTHING even he's brother could not stand him. to much EGO is bad, just look at the French footbal squad during the world cup...
on the Pink Floyd quistion I have nothing to say that hadent been said earlyer in this thread better.
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:33
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I just wish the whole band could've seen how much better their music was when they all worked as a team... The whole deal could be everybody was getting lazy except Roger. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 18:06
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Hi,
I find it incredibly sad to read some of the comments made here ... it's sort of like saying that Stravinsky is better than Tchaikovsky or vice versa.
That is just such a crock of garbage guys ... and all members were important to the band in their own way, even if Roger spent more time creating new stuff that the others might not have.
In general, my view is this ... to just play rock'n'roll and 4/4 stuff that has the feel of a lamp post, is not worth it! And Roger certainly knows that and has shown that. For the others, it might be thought of as a reaction to the more difficult stuff they were doing, but if it wasn't the difficult stuff the staging for all of this stuff was insane and required attention that ... probably burned everyone out! So much of the stuff in DSOTM was computerized and along a film, and that means ... you can't make a mistake! And the emotional take in all that stuff makes it much tougher to appreciate, so hearing anyone of them say it was Roger's baby ... well, I can tell you that if would not have been Pink Floyd without all this stuff in it.
There are other things ... I am not sure about this one, but here is my thinking ... Eric Clapton played on The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking ... and it was my understanding that Roger was going to do a few dates and that Eric was going to play them ... and in the end that crashed. You know why? ... it's not blues and it was not "easy stuff" that Eric could do all day long and challenge himself to do more! ... and to me, that was the whole thing. Each Roger album got better and better and Amused to Death is fabulous, but not appreciated sometimes. But it also tells you that Roger has a knack for music, and allow each person some freedom ... you can't say that Jeff Beck is not tremendous in that album, or you are not listening. Eric Clapton before that. David Gilmour before that.
So, if David was tired and wanted to do something simpler for a change, that's understand'able, and probably appreciated ... you forget that he had to be "on" every night and not fail ... and he didn't ... you won't find a lot of "mistakes" in the bootlegs, and you have to have a very good musician and person behind that, to do so! Roger would probably be the first one to tell you ... yeah, we disagreed, but he is, and was, pretty good. I'm not sure Pink Floyd could have succeeded as much if it had not happened so strongly and they stuck together.
Lastly, Richard Wright appears to have been the one that first said no, to all the stuff, and I think that Roger was simply asking too much from the equipment to the point of alienating some folks. And it is well known that Richard just about was not in The Final Cut", and to be honest with you ... that is exactly what that album is missing ... the softness that Richard always added to the whole thing that smoothed out the harshness and the roughness.
Roger never left.
They just took a break from each other.
Ohhh ... maybe you should check out the article today in the news ... David has been showing up in many Wall concerts, and I'm sure that Roger is the one that said ... get your butt here ... your guitar is wanted! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 22:09
Really? I guess you just read the headlines and the stories write themselves?
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 12 2010 at 23:11
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This is for me another stick a fork in them, they're done groups. That doesn't mean that the guys don't have some more good shows or music left in them. I saw them without Waters on The Division Bell Tour when they came by Atlanta to the Georgia Tech outdoor football stadium for a concert. Just looked it up and there were two shows. I don't have the ticket stub handy but it may be in storage. Anyway, it was a rainy day, brought down a good umbrella. They made everyone entering the stadium with an umbrella leave it near the entrance. I did wear a raincoat but the weather was awful and severely distracted from the show. All the umbrellas had been carried off by the time the show was over. That was just wrong. Well, at least we had seats. I think it was a ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Follix
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 02:37
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As an instrumentalist he was the worst of the four. One of the best lyricist of all time - Yes One of the good songwriter too But not a so good Bass player and good vocals in the 70's, And dunno why but I prefer Gilmour solo stuff but its fun to see that they played together 3 days ago. |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 08:06
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He did'nt leave.......he just evaporated ! ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: enigma
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 15:25
| It was interesting to see that Waters and Gilmour played together for a charity gig last weekend. They only played a handful of songs, but speculation is no doubt rife over Waters' upcoming Wall tour. I'd love Gilmour to make a guest appearance. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 22:38
Ofcourse I totally oppose any insult to Roger too, but so do I oppose any inslut to the rest of the band. I wouldn't say the band got better when Roger began writing material "selfishly" (and I even must say that there were great thing in the albums before DSotM), but rather when they learned what each was best at, and Waters is best at creating concepts and writing lyrics, and ofcourse he is a very good songwriter - but he needed the input of the others to make those Pink Floyd classics. Roger couldn't have created DSotM, Wish you Were here, nor even Animals all by himself. Nor the song Echoes. And even The Wall may have suffered if he hadn't had the feedback of the band (and Comfortably Numb wouldn't have been the song so many love). And Gilmour wasn't the only other serious writer in Floyd, Wright also did his share of writing, and in DSotM I think he was a more important writer than Gilmour, and about as important as Waters (Great Gig in the Sky and Us & Them were his babies, and he co-wrote Time and Any color you like with the rest of the band); and he was co-writer of Shine on you Crazy Diamond. And perhaps Gilmour's Floyd misses the points of the classic Pink Floyd, but Waters solo output misses the music. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 13 2010 at 22:53
Well, it all depends on taste, ofcourse. Even though I completley agree that Amused to Death is by far superior to MLOR & TDB as far as concept and lyrics is concerned, for me at least The Division Bell is far superior than Amused to Death as far as music is concerned. I find The Division Bell among my very favourite Pink Floyd albums, even above The Wall, I love all of the songs, while AtD has some very boring songs (Too Much Rope, Watching TV, and a few others I don't even remember). |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 14 2010 at 00:57
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Of course as many have stressed Floyd were a band and as such they all contributed vital things to make it what it was. I wanted to use the Beatles as an example. In some respects Waters = Lennon and Gilmour = Mc Cartney. The Beatles were great because of (obviously) sheer talent but also the right mix of people. Floyd were very much the same imo.
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