Officers taser 86 old disabled woman in bed
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
Forum Description: Discuss any topic at all that is not music-related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68713
Printed Date: February 23 2025 at 20:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Officers taser 86 old disabled woman in bed
Posted By: markosherrera
Subject: Officers taser 86 old disabled woman in bed
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 07:03
Officers taser 86-year-old disabled woman in her bed: lawsuit
By
http://rawstory.com/rs/author/danielt/ - Daniel Tencer Friday, June 25th, 2010 -- 4:37 pm
One of the police officers named in a lawsuit over the tasering of a bed-ridden 86-year-old woman says the grandmother threatened officers with a knife. "Police have admitted using a Taser to incapacitate the suicidal woman Dec. 22," http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=masthead_topten - reports the Oklahoman . "Officer Duran wrote in a police report she pulled a kitchen knife from under her pillow and threatened to kill him. 'I tried talking to Varner and calm her down but nothing would work,' he reported." Duran said in his police report that Lona Varner, 86, raised the knife above her head and said, "If you come any closer, you're getting the k Officer 's rationale: Bed-ridden grandmother 'took more aggressive stance' in her bed When Lonnie Tinsley of El Reno, Oklahoma, called 911 to ask for medical assistance for his disabled, bed-ridden grandmother, he couldn't have dreamed it would end with police tasering the 86-year-old woman twice, stepping on her oxygen hose until she couldn't breathe, and sending her to a psychiatric hospital for six days. Yet that's what a http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/TaserGranny.pdf - lawsuit (PDF) filed in a federal court in Oklahoma this week alleges. According to the lawsuit, in December, 2009, Tinsley came by his grandmother's apartment to see if she was doing alright in the midst of a winter storm. When she wasn't able to tell him if she had taken her medication, Tinsley called 911 and asked responders to send medical technicians over to evaluate her. But instead of an ambulance, the lawsuit alleges, "as many as 10 El Reno police" arrived and "pushed their way through the door." At that point, 86-year-old Lona Varner told police to "get out of her apartment." That's when officer Thomas Duran, described in the lawsuit as the "leader" of the police unit, allegedly told another officer to "taser her." When Tinsley responded "Don't tase my granny!" the officers threatened to taser him instead, the lawsuit states. In his police report, officer Durgan asserted that Varner "took a more aggressive posture in her bed," evidently causing him to fear for his and his officers' lives. Police then handcuffed Tinsley and took him to a waiting squad car. They released him without charge some time later. Meanwhile, the lawsuit alleges, officers "stepped on [Varner's] oxygen hose until she began to suffer oxygen deprivation." Officers then fired a taser at her, hitting her twice, causing her to pass out, the lawsuit states. At the direction of El Reno police, Varner was sent to the psychiatric ward of St. Anthony's Hospital in Oklahoma City, where she was held for six days. The lawsuit, which names the city of El Reno and 13 police officers as defendants, alleges that Varner's rights were violated under the Fourth and 14th Amendments to the US Constitution, and that "the defendants caused the plaintiffs to be wrongfully seized, assaulted, battered, physically harmed, humiliated [and] emotionally harmed." ------------- Hi progmaniacs of all the world |
Replies:
Posted By: The Runaway
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 09:15
|
What the f**kING f**k?!? This made me shed a tear, seriously. These f**king fa****s are f**king stupid. She probably didn't threaten or anything, it's just a f**king lame excuse for tasing her. Stupid f**king cops like this deserve to rot in hell.
------------- http://www.formspring.me/Aragorn224" rel="nofollow - Trendsetter win! The search for nonexistent perfection. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:22
|
Sad story, but I hope you realize that not all of the police are like this and 95% of them are responsible citizens who are just doing their job. I don't know what your intention was, but I really get tired of criticism of the entire police force based on a few corrupt cops. |
Posted By: The Runaway
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:26
It's sad I don't hear stories like "Police bust major drug deal", and more like "Cop tazes 85 year old woman and steps on her oxygen tube until she can't breathe" f**k people like him. ------------- http://www.formspring.me/Aragorn224" rel="nofollow - Trendsetter win! The search for nonexistent perfection. |
UndercoverBoy wrote:Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:28
| Because police busting major drug deals don't sell and grab interest like these stories. |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:33
This. Besides, I'm not going to make any judgements off of alleged statements.
|
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:34
This. It's all about media and money. Notice how news stories that are bad news are always more abundant than good news? It's not that bad things happen a lot more than good things, it's that bad news does a better job at capturing the reader's attention. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:42
|
In my old neighborhood, there were 26 bustings of meth labs. I have never heard any stories in my city about corrupt cops like these. Recently, our mayor decided to lay off thirty cops, and my friends and family went to her house to protest. Unsurprisingly, the meth usage in Tulsa has gone up considerably since they were laid off. Why don't these cops get more attention yet the few bad ones get all the coverage? Money, that's what.
I can't speak for markosherrera, but based on this previous thread, I seriously doubt he cares as much for the victim as he cares for stirring up fear and hatred for the police force.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60458 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60458
|
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:48
|
What's wrong with calling out the abuse of authority? |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:49
| Nothing is. What's wrong is typecasting the entire police force based on the few bad apples, which isn't too uncommon. Are there corrupt cops? Yes. Was what these cops did wrong? Absolutely! Are all cops like this? Absolutely not. |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:50
|
Maybe the cops were trying to defribullator the old lady. 'CLEAR!' You hear something like this every couple of months. The cops tazzing an old person. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:52
Because reported allegations = what actually happened (in the minds of the public). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:57
If it makes you feel any better I get just as disgusted when I hear of police busting drug deals as I do when I read a deplorable story like this. Why don't you hear the positive stories? You do actually, when they're large, monumental things. However, "Cops bust drug dealer", isn't a story, its just a group of people doing their job. You may as well run the headlines "Payless employee sells Converse sneakers.", "Crossing guard stops traffic.". Why would you report when somebody just does what they're supposed to do. However, a story like this obviously deserves attention precisely because it shows cops not doing their job, exceeding their authority. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 13:58
Are all cops like this? No. Are most cops like this? Maybe. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:02
Really? So you think that a story like this that pops up every few months is an accurate representation of all the police. And you said you find police busting drug deals to be just as deplorable. Okay, I can understand why one may have a problem arresting a kid selling pot to his friends, but do you think that twenty six meth labs belong in any society?
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:04
That's not what he meant. He meant it doesn't deserve coverage. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:05
| Okay, that may have been a little over the line, but I'm still shocked that he would find the busting of drug deals to be as disgusting as this story. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:10
Did I say all or did I say most? Did I give an affirmative answer to the question? Obviously I don't know. Also obviously, neither do you, but I don't see why we should assume that its a minority of policemen. My personal experience would dictate that most cops I've encountered arbitrarily abuse their powers. And I guess society doesn't need them; I find that to be a strange question. Does society need to forbid them? Certainly not. I object to it on both practical and principled reasons. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:12
Again, I think you are misunderstanding. I think he's saying (correct me if I'm wrong Pat) that he does not think drug bust stories should be reported. It disgusts him before he doesn't think it should be reported. I disagree to an extent (Police catching a serial killer is them doing their job, but it damn well should be reported). Funny how my comment (which I think is quite important when it comes to the media) has gone overlooked.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:14
You're both right I guess. I'm saying it shouldn't be reported, but also that I find prosecuting people for drug use/selling/making to be wrong. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:16
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:18
It would seem more prudent that I just buy a boat rather than build the raft. But with that minor correction I'll strongly consider your experiment. Thanks for the contribution. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:21
I prefer to be prepared to protect my home and family myself rather than wait the 8 minutes for police to arrive.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:24
Enjoy the right of self defense while it lasts. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:24
But my friend don't you realize you'll be taxed for the purchase, and thus some of your hard earned cash will be going to the evil policez?!?! Quite frankly I find your comments to be a bit naive.
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:25
How ironic that the US government so reminds me of this fellow named George from a while back... ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:31
I called the police evil where? Quite frankly I find your ad hominem comments to contrary to any real discussion we'd have here. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:31
Yes Hamilton would be quite happy. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:45
This is you side stepping; not me. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 14:51
You claim that I've said cops are evil, and the evidence is me saying that the cops I've personally encountered have abused power? lawl ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:05
Seems like my use of embellishment is lost on you. Still when someone goes around saying that most the cops they've met have abused their power, and that we shouldn't infringe on drug peddlers, well you're doing most of the comedic heavy lifting for me. See I'm still under the impression that you're joking. You jokester.
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:07
|
And it seems to me you're trying to push your own personal morality on the rest of society. I get a good hardy laugh at that.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:11
| Only when I see someone who doesn't have sense enough to realize their fun, and games just cost an innocent bystander their life. For someone who preaches about a drug friendly society, you don't seem to know much about the effects of drugs. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:15
|
Such a person is me? I abuse meth because I defend people's right to consume it? Or that means I don't understand the effect of drugs? I see drugs effecting the person who choses to consume it. I see the black market created by government regulation destroying lives and absorbing money. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:16
I can't speak for Pat, but I can say this: Drugs should be legal. Period. I don't care what harm they cause. This country is wasting countless amounts of taxpayer money on this 'War on Drugs' that goes nowhere. I'm really sorry if you think we should make everybody's safety decisions for them, but we can't. And throwing money and trigger-happy cops at these situations isn't the way to fix things. If anything, it just makes the situation worse. If people want to make stupid decisions, they are going to do it regardless of what our lawmakers may try to do to prevent it. Sometimes the laws that are passed are actually effective in what they are trying to accomplish. In other cases, they aren't so successful. This nonsense about making drugs illegal is the latter. That's all I'm gonna say. because I don't want this to turn into the infamous drug thread all over again. PM me if you want to debate further, though. I do love a nice, firey argument! |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:20
|
You sit through a court hearing on behalf of a loved one who was accidentally run over by some hop head, and see if you don't start to question your principle views. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:23
What does that have to do with anything I just said? People are killed by drunk drivers all the time, too. People are killed accidentally all the time by others who are abusing some sort of substance, but the laws don't prevent those incidents from happening, do they? How is making drugs illegal to buy helping anyone? Little kids are a hundred times more likely to get ahold of drugs right now than if drugs were legalized and kept behind a counter by an I.D.-checking store clerk.
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:24
|
Yes because emotion should always reign supreme in debates. 1) Did drug enforcement stop that from happening? 2) What was the crime here, the drug consumption, or the killing of a human being? It seems like we already have laws against murder. Apparently all cops are good except for a few bad apples that make the press, but all drug users are accurately represented by the "hop head"s that murder people. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:30
What happens is that there are many mentally ill police there should be more stringent tests, not to attack the poor people engaged in helping the people harmless and harder to combat real crime instead of abusing people ------------- Hi progmaniacs of all the world |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:37
|
Equality: I've met my fair share of cops, and drug addicts. In my experience those who are trying to escape reality are much more dangerous than those who man up, and face it. I've not seen a single good thing come out of drug abuse. It ruins everyones lives around that person. Jlocke: Drug stores already sell drugs that are basically like Meth. Take Wellbutrin for example. If you were to legalize drugs they'd be a hundred times more accessible than they already are now. You don't fight a fire by throwing more kerosene on it.
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:40
Nothing good comes of it? I think people enjoy the experience it offers. By that same logic nothing good comes of high sodium diets, sedentary lifestyles, or majoring in Communications, should we criminalize these things? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:44
Drug stores also regulate which people can buy it, and how much at a time. The same would be true with any of the currently illegal drugs. You're looking at this from a very lazy and basic viewpoint. You're overlooking the fine details that make the argument for drug legalization much more reasonable than some think. And no, they would NOT be 'a hundred times more accessible', because like I just said, there would be high regulations and qualifications in order to purchase such a thing! Do you honestly think stores would just let anybody off the street waltz right in and grab a month's worth if meth? Making something legal makes it safer, easier to manage, and easier to keep track of who in fact is a drug user. Drugs are more accessable right now because dealers on the street aren't checking peoples' I.D.s. They don't care who they sell to. A legal retailer would. |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:45
| I have yet to hear about someone with such high blood pressure due to sodium intake that they went, and robbed a liquor store so they could support their fix. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:48
Maybe because they can legally purchase it at a fair market price? Also, that's the consideration now? I thought the problem was that the consumption of a good will ruin someone's life? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:48
Agreed with the fact that the police force should be more selective when hiring officers to prevent the occasional crimes such as this. I just wanted to know your intent, as I had a feeling that you had beef with the police force as a whole.
|
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:49
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:51
You do realize narcotics weren't made a federal crime until 1914 right? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:51
Your propostion is actually pretty reasonable, as long as we carefully regulate who gets these drugs. Still, I can't think of a situation when drugs such as meth and heroin could ever be sold. Are there any positive benefits to these substances?
Now, why can't this selective ID-checking system be used when selling guns? (Okay, just dodge that question.
 ) |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:52
Again, you're completely ignoring the fact that these crimes take place already, regardless of the laws in place. If drugs were legally sold and taxed, it would be much easier to keep track of people who in fact take drugs. And I don't think it's that far of a stretch to assume that would also make it easier to prevent people from abusing their intake and/or causing harm to others in public. Do you not see how Alcohol being legal has saved lives? If a bartender sees someone abusing their intake, they cut them off and call a cab. If someone is drinking and driving and law enforcement is near, they act accordingly. When something is illegal, it's harder to anticipate and keep track of. So instead of people treating a drug abuser just as fairly as an alcoholic, they end up busting into people's houses in the middle of the night with guns all because a neighbor reported smelling pot once or twice in that house. Do you honestly think that's how it should be handled?
|
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:52
Point is people do extremely irrational things on drugs. Alcohol is bad enough as it is. unfortunately I know all this from first hand experiences.
 You seriously think present society or the drugs are even remotely comparable to 1914? Wow, you are high. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:58
Some would argue that hallucinogens and acids help people think with new parts of their brain, but even if that isn't the case, I don't see where Alcohol has any super-positive benefits for people either, except that it makes them feel good. And as long as people don't harm others, they are allowed to enjoy it. Sure, drinking and smoking can lead to diseases later in life, but they are legal. Drugs are the same thing, in my eyes. If being healthy and hygienically beneficial were the conditions for something to be legal or not, we'd have absolutely nothing available to us other than the essentials for living.
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:58
People do incredibly irrational things because of love. I suppose that should be criminalized? The drugs are very comparable, as many are exactly the same. Regardless though you say such things can never be legalized as if they never were. That's just plain stupid. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 15:59
I don't know if you've ever seen anyone high on meth, but there is a large difference between being high on that and being drunk or high on marijuana.
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:04
It doesn't matter. Legally, it's all or nothing. Every substance has a different effect based on what it is comprised of and the person using it, but ALL drugs are potentially dangerous, and should all be regulated to some degree if made legal. As it stands now, however, NO heavy drugs are being regulated, because legitimate businessmen aren't the ones providing them to people. I don't see how trying it my way could make the situation any more dangerous than it already is.
|
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:09
Not in the society we've built. You want to live free of laws then again, go build or buy a raft, and find yourself an Island. I'm sure you'll soon start to appreciate the laws you once so naively despised. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:12
Not in the society we've built. You want to live free of laws then again, go build or buy a raft, and find yourself an Island. I'm sure you'll soon start to appreciate the laws you once so naively despised. Perhaps thats how we should have handled those damn slaves when they wanted more freedom? You know that murder rates from black people have shot up since slavery ended? Should we bring it back? Your argument makes no sense. If I don't like the government I should just leave? That's so antithetical to any morality I know of or even a cursory examination of our political tradition in this country. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:16
That has to do with poverty, and the educational system. Legalizing drugs won't solve the issue, and in return will have much bigger issues than we do already.
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:18
What? How does that relate to anything I said? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:19
 Finally someone realizes that the root of most crime is poverty and poor education. Not to get into another argument, though.
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:22
|
I'm off to finish some HW before I frustrate myself further with this debate. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:22
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:23
Then give proof. Show some numbers, past similar events, something tangible that proves we would be thrown into chaos if drugs were legalized. The only example I can personally think of that is similar to this is when alcohol was illegal. And guess what? The crime rates involving the substance went DOWN, not up, once it was legalized. |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:25
| Look what happened when Portugal decriminalized drugs: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html - http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:28
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:44
Evidently, that's the only way to solve the problem. De-penalize it. On the issue, that's what happens when you give power and authority and the means to exert them to big brute guys without much of a brain.... Oh yes that last comment was so deep... Probably 80% of the police force are all right but the not-as-few-as-we'd-like rotten apples always do the most harm... ------------- 
|
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:46
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:49
What the hell?
 |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:53
 Decriminalization such as the article is referring to is different than legalization. Drugs are still illegal, but punishment has changed to an offer of a helping hand for those who are caught with "small amounts." |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 16:55
Well that's at least more rational than I thought you would be. Perhaps I've misjudged you.
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 17:00
Yes I can. And I do. Legally, the situation is the same. You make something illegal as commonly used as drugs of any kind, and it's gonna cause crime because people don't simply stop doing their routine because you say so. People are gonna use meth no matter what, and if it's legal, it's much more manageable. How is that so hard to understand? The crooks on the street and dirty needle-swapping would stop, how is that a bad thing?
|
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 17:11
Assuming that you are referring to my comments, this form of abuse is unacceptable but an uncommon occurence. Can you prove to me that this happens all the time? Perhaps we should be more selective in picking our police officers, but the good that the police force does far outweighs the bad.
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 17:27
|
1. In America at least, always follow the orders of police officers as long as they're acting how they should and not violating rights (Miranda, search and seizure, etc). If possible, have a way of videotaping the interaction unless it's against the law (in some states it is now). 2. Some cops are on a power trip, plain and simple. Even the best ones are no Andy Griffith, and they'll intimidate the hell out of you. Have a backbone and don't be a sobbing baby in interactions, but at the same time don't be threatening. 3. A lot of drugs are neutral or positive for society, or at least by themselves mostly harmless (marijuana, LSD, ecstasy) and should be completely, 100% legalized (to the extent alcohol is ). Meth is not one of those. Meth, like crack cocaine, is a scourge on society and should be contained. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 17:29
 file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CJim%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CJim%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Just once in my life I'd like to see a headline noting all
of the thousands of good acts performed in a day by police officers in my
country...a headline about all the lives saves, the officers lives risked
stepping into domestic situations to protect abused women and children, the
first responding officers helping senior citizens who have fallen or had heart
attacks, the violent a****les removed from the streets, again at great personal
risk to the officers, who leave home every day not knowing if they will
return. file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CJim%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - I wonder if the people who hate cops have any understanding of what the US major cities would be like without law enforcement. I have a feeling living in true lawlessness might change their opinion of our officers, rather quickly. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:13
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:21
But how do we do that? I'm not opposed to it, but the way we've been trying to 'contain' it is not working. So what do you suggest?
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:39
lol I don't know. I'd leave that up to law enforcement people who actually know more about drug trafficking than me. It should be contained, but tat doesn't mean it can be or will be, but it does mean we can try. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:45
Wait, what? |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:52
Not good enough. You're arguing against making all drugs legal and manageable, yet you can't come up with a better solution. It's very easy to just say 'it should be contained' and just leave it there. We both agree that the current war on drugs is ridiculous and doesn't work, correct? So tell me, if we are going to pick-and-choose which narcotics should be legal or not, what do we do in those special cases where some drugs are still banned? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:52
Videotaping officer interactions (in groups of people, usually with cell phones) is a good way of exposing police brutality. No doubt some people who do this are belligerent and try to provoke the officer into being brutal. Which is why some states have made it illegal (which is hilariously wrong). But if it's unobtrusive recording, only officers who are abusive have anything to worry about, which is why they get abusive--they can't do their job without going all power trip and executing dogs, tazing children, etc. so they go toe to toe with the cameraman. Oops, you just got fired. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 18:58
I don't know about The War On Drugz (capital letters--serious business). I believe some drugs are safe and relatively nondestructive to society while others are not. I think it's stupid to acknowledge something is a public scourge and not do anything about it, and I also think it's stupid to try to expect someone who knows practically nothing about the drug trade to come up with a working solution to an incredibly complex problem. An appeal to authority is not a fallacy if they need to be appealed to. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:03
I agree with this completely. I saw a video recently where a team of testosterone-laden he-men cops bust into a guy's home, shoot and kill his dogs, slam him to the floor, shouting in his ear, guns drawn, upsetting his wife and kid, and what is all this excitement about? A single, average-sized bag of weed. That's all they uncovered. So now this guy and his family are traumatized because he liked to chill out with some pot now and again. How and why did the cops come in with that much over-preparation? The man's nosey neighbor embellished and claimed he was running a methlab or pot garden in his home. Police need to be more cautious and forward-thinking when making decisions like this one. All you have to do is be a little more mindful before you take action, and you won't make as many mistakes as cops these days SEEM to make. Am I wrong in saying that? I have a relative who is a police officer. He speeds, disobeys traffic signals and texts while he drives, all while not wearing a seatbelt. Now, I've never seen him 'at work', as it were, but I'm not so sure I feel comfortable when policemen abuse their authority-- on or off duty. This relative of mine is a nice, genuine guy, and we get along, but you can't tell me that excuses him from breaking the same laws he enforces on other people. This is the pattern I see time and again with cops, whether they are genuine people or not. I don't know much of anything, but I do know this: the amount of cops who abuse their position is not just a small percentage.
|
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:26
A terrible offense from the police officers, no doubt. And I don't know if I've said this yet, but I'm for the legalization of marijuana, so I don't support the raid in the first place. But what about the police officers that helped the helpless and stopped the real criminals? They aren't talked about because stories of cops doing their job just don't sell.
Not at all.
Your relative isn't representative of all the police. If we are going to make observations based on personal observations, I have a friend who works at a refreshment station overnight and has had many encounters with the cops. According to him, they have all been very nice and genuine people, and has witnessed them stopping crime. He was quite adamant about protesting when we had the mass lay-off of our officers.
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:31
|
It's time to return to the new debate on Prog Archives that has absolutely nothing to do with the original post. When we last left them...
A fellow who can't yet buy cigarettes knows the root of most crime. Fascinating. So poverty and poor eduction is the cause of most crime? Wherefore then, the proliferation of "white collar crime?" You use the term "most," when you don't know "most." You know, to use an academic phrase, "very little." ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:31
|
My father is a the chief of police. The majority of officers I've met are upstanding citizens who genuinely want to help people. One of his officer's wife rang 911 on him for pushing her, and he was taken off duty asap. Just like every job there are some bad seeds; however, it's not one job you can get away with goofing off for very long.
|
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:46
|
Originally posted by UndercoverBoy Finally someone realizes that the root of most crime is poverty and poor education. Not to get into another argument, though. Never have bought that mantra. It doesn't help, for sure. But there are oodles of poor, under-educated people out there who are law abiding, hard working, and proud of it. And as pointed out, plenty of rich upper class crime. The roots of crime IMO come from poor character, personal weakness, and some cultural elements. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:47
I'm not saying it's just my relative. But all I can do is speak from experience, okay? And based what I have personally seen, I have yet to meet a male police officer who hasn't acted like an a****le while on duty. Meanwhile, all the female cops I've seen (not that many around here) seem to be more fair and accurate in their jobs than the men. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but I would much rather run into a female cop than a male one. Not because I think women are less of a threat, or some such nonsense, but because they seem to care about the integrity of their position more. But that's just what I've seen.
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:50
. . . unless you're Rob, in which case you believe a talking snake and a smart tree are the root of crime in human beings.  Just kiddin' ya, Robert. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:59
Bullsh*t. A person's morality isn't dictated by her living conditions. |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:59
|
Edit: tried to get the quote in there right.
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:03
Do tell. I guess you know it all, right? Yeah, forget these poor people. They're all just a bunch of crooks 'cause they're poor! That makes a lot of sense. I've known people who have been in pretty dire straights in their lives, and that didn't automatically make them criminals. Do you honestly have such little faith in people that you would make such a broad assumption?
|
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:04
|
Nonsense. You're really insulting the poor there. I come from very poor family, people that did go to bed hungry many nights. People who shared clothes. They had pride and a strong sense of right and wrong. As did their neighbors in the same boat. Equating being poor with crime is such a vapid excuse. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:05
|
If you're starving you'll do plenty of things you thought you'd never be capable of.
Edit: And I'm not insulting a class; merely explaining a fact of human nature.
|
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:08
Exactly. For anybody to equate being poor with being capable of committing a crime is so ignorant and shallow, I honestly cannot believe such a person would be serious. People are better than that, on the whole.
Yes you are. You are basically saying that because you live in uncomfortable conditions and don't have much money, you are somehow unable to determine what is right and what is wrong. It's absurd. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:17
|
If money and privilege change who you are morally as a person, then you are still evil.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:20
|
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:23
|
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:25
|
My grandmother used to ride the ass of my Dad and his brothers about doing the right thing, about respect, and about how their poverty was no excuse for not being exceptional people. She taught them to quit worrying about themselves and look for ways to help their neighbors, especially the older ones. Today, we tell the poor they are victims who need "justice."  I just don't know how we got from the simple, common sense people we once were to this nation of whiners. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:33
 All your right, and wrongs don't mean a thing to this child. You've had a completely different education on the world than he has. He lives to survive. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:39
Comments like that justify turning a blind eye to society's structural flaws (let alone addressing them). |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:39
|
Dude, we're not talking about that (at least I'm not). I'm talking about the USA in 2010, and our idea of poverty. Not starving kids in Africa or wherever that is. Perhaps that's why we're arguing here. There is a big difference between what you and I were apparently thinking. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |