Greek Crisis Poll
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Topic: Greek Crisis Poll
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Subject: Greek Crisis Poll
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 14:37
The world media supports austerity, obviously, but what say you? 
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Replies:
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: May 18 2010 at 14:01
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As a Greek living outside Greece, I would vote for the measures because I am aware of the uncontrolled public spending. On the other hand some (and I say only some) of the protesters are right to complain - the money need to be returned first by those who spent it illegally |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 18 2010 at 14:16
Greek yogurt.  By the way, I only support austerity when those who really made the mess get the austerity. In practice this never happens. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 14:34
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Protesters of course. I'm a 20 year old Greek. The whole country is a huge whor*house, there are no laws, no justice, politicians and rich people steal with full support by the media, middle class people dream about getting a job in the state sector, buy plasma TVs and jeeps. The majority of people care only for the reality shows playing every night. Guys, you should know this: all the money the EU sent all this years became jeeps, villas and anything other than what it should be. The goverment has 43% of the votes (with total voters about 60% of the population) and got 160 out of 300 of parliament members! The prime minister is a clown in front of Obama and Merkel with no will to change anything. BUT this isn't (only) Greek people's fault. p.e Germany and France are selling armor to Greece after the loan they gave! Greece spends more than 6 billion euros on armor every year. It's in the top five WORLDWIDE and top in Europe! For what? In order to deal with a fake enemy like Turkey. EU gives loans to Greece with higher interest rate than EU is loaning itself etc etc Bob Marley has a song called "Stand up (for your rights)". Time to make the lyrics true! Pardon my English. |
Posted By: Zebedee
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 14:56
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I do feel empathetic towards the protesters to a degree (even though protesting will only make matters worse), but seriously, what Greece needs is a change in mentality. Extremely early retirement, say at the age of 53, is taken for granted, while other European countries are raising the retirement age to 67; almost everyone evades taxes etc. Greece has to take measures against this, simply because it is part of the EU. It will be a hard thing for the Greeks to swallow, but it's the only option really. Punishing the government and corrupt officials may seem sensible and justified (and I agree that they should get the austerity too, as Brian puts it), but it won't improve Greece's monster of a dilemma. Austerity it is. ------------- 
Friendship is like wetting your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth. |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 19:15
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I go with with Loukanis (Kanellos?) and those siding with him, i.e., the protesters.
------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 20:16
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Protesters or social cuts? Yes and yes. How can we separate our support for either? What we're seeing is a need to support both the protesters and social cuts. Why can one not support the people and also see the need for fiscal responsibility. It is this one-or-the-other attitude that seems to be the real problem. Support the people, support economic sanity. In the U.S., it's our Social Security that is killing us long term, and changing the laws that govern when and why someone receives these benefits is as important as being humane to those older folks who may - or in some cases do not - need the extra help. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 22:45
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I really hate being this guy, (especially considering a few years ago I would have killed anyone who said what Im about to say) but.... Social Cuts. Personally, opposed to it....but, hating to be the realist, what are the other options? It is terrible, and I certainly understand the anger....but it is necessary. What else can be done? Thanks to a huge amount of issued bonds and many years of irresponsible policy (not the people fault of course) Greek loans are now "junk". So no borrowing. How else can the country right its situation?? It is awful, but must be done. And I agree with Zebedee....a change of mentality is a good thing. I mean this isn't the first time recently there's been riots because of bad economic conditions. Riots? Not to mention a long history of fiscal irresponsibility. Especially if Greece is SERIOUS about the Eurozone. If they are, they need to change to a different mentality. Long story short: It sucks, and I can understand the peoples anger....BUT the government has no other option but social cuts at this moment. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 03:17
Well, I pity Mr Everybody that will pay for the few culprits.... and my cousin is probably going to leave the place, because of
Greece is a very corruprted country, (even worse thanb my country) and cheating taxes is a national sport practised by many.... Most people that build their homes never finish the roof of their house, because while it's not finished, you cannot be taxed on the property.
but one has to know that civil servants (those very same that will see theie wages lowered by 15% in the new measures) are way overpaid and receive undue bonuses on top of never being nominatedto their post (can't be fired).....
Such as:
- premiums just for arriving to work on time >> can you imagine that???
 - premiums for taking the lift to a different floor or going to another building to fetch files for work >>> poor thing
  ...etc....
I'm all for job secirity (I've worked in the private sector and was squeezed like a lemon until I was dry...) but this is ridiculous
 No wonder that the country is broke.... ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
aapatsos wrote:Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 03:47
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Easy answer -second for sure. We have similar crisis situation on Baltics, government cut salaries and expencies in public sector around 10-15%, we slowly returning back to normal life. We had no riots, street fights and other attractions. It doesn't helps. If your business is bancrupted because you was too lazy to work properly and had bad management, because you was too lazy to elect better one, no riots will help you to rebuilt your life. You can only cut your expencies and try to learn to work harder and better. I believe there are big differences in culture and menthality in Northern countries and Southern countries. I lived and worked in both regions for years. If Northern people work hard, speak less and try to count money, Southern people speak a lot, work just a bit and like to spent as much as possible. It's life. But if one day you're must to pay for your great previous life (at the account of other nations), it's not a reason to be unhappy. Just time to pay your bills. There is no nation in the world (at least I never heard about such one), who has pension retirement age from 53 !!!!!! Only Greeks. So - economically super power? Far from that. What is the reason? Why Germans (who know how to work, believe me) , go to retirement from 67? Have you ever heard (in normal world) about 14 yearly salaries for public workers? No? OK, it's Greece. How you heard about yearly bonuses to public pensioners? Right, it's Greece. I have nothing against, if the country is so economically powerful, that can spent billions on such things. But Greece? Contry with 130 billions euros debt and just 10 millions population. Spending EU (read German and French) money to their dolce vita? OK, this fairy tale is finished, I think for years for them. It's time to start to live according to income. But - is it a reason for riots? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:52
I dont think it's a good reason to riot; if there ever is one. But it's human nature, to react badly when you have something you've relied on, or got used to for a long time, taken away. The primal instincts surface when you feel threatened and in danger. Whats happening in Greece could happen anywhere. I dont fully understand the Greek situation, but someone told me that most people retire in their early 50's, and that there is no real formal (or at least effectively administered) PAYE tax system. So, people can avoid/evade paying tax quite easily. If this is the case, it's no wonder Greece is screwed, if public spending has been high for so long. You cant take out of a pot what's not in there to start with. This morning, in the UK, one newspaper published the spending cuts announced by our coalition government yesterday, as a diagram, showing the savings proportional to what we owe. Depsite the cuts totalling billions, they still only represent a microscopic proportion of that defecit. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 05:13
| I didn't watch closely the Greek issue, but I didn't get the feeling the protesters were only against social cuts, but more were expressing anger at the situation, which is a different thing. |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 07:25
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Guys do you really believe that people should work till their late 60's? I mean what's the point of living? You work at least 1/3 of your life as a slave, get a pension at 70 and then what? You die! You really believe that a country can't pay it's bills because people have normal age retirement? Well, I believe that there is plenty of money. Plenty! But in the pockets of few who squeee the rest of us! Some may call this laziness but I call it need for life! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 07:38
^ Indeed I think the retirement age should be correlated with the life expectancy. But with a 79.5 years expectancy Greece is there at the top of the civilized world, where retirement age is normally at 65 years (which would leave a decade and a half!). I can't see why Greeks complain of this. I mean, the rate of "early retirement" in Greece was absolutely stunning, and the normal retirement age was 61... For contrast, in Romania, also a EU country, the difference between life expectancy for a man and retirement age is of only four (!) years (which puts it somewhere between... Jordan and Sri Lanka)  . No wonder why I've moved to a country with an over 80 years life expectancy 
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Posted By: Zebedee
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 08:40
Yes, I do believe that. Denmark has an average European early retirement (62)/pension (65 being raised to 67) age, yet the Danes are the happiest people in the world. Working isn't quite the same as slavery. It's just obvious that Greece's retirement age is disproportionate to the average life expectancy and especially compared to other EU member states. Early retirement isn't the only cause for Greece's problems (as tax evasion, corruption and bad government are other major causes) but together they cause devastating economic problems. Above all, being part of the EU also means that Greece is part of a highly integrated economic and monetary system. The benefits of EU membership can be great, but it also means that a member state has to take responsibility to maintain that same economic system. A single member state ruining its economy can have dire consequences for the entire system. Raising the retirement age, social cuts, tax reforms and decreasing corruption are just the only options that Greece has to recover its economy. And even then, recovery will be extremely difficult. It will be harsh for the Greeks, but doing nothing is only going to detoriate the whole situatiation even further. -------------
Friendship is like wetting your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth. |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 08:58
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You talk like you were president of a bank or something... I didn't mean that retirement age should be lower only for Greece but for other countries too! These days I tend to remember a quote from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly saying: "If you work for a living, why do you kill yourself working?" |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:12
I will agree with you, if you will say who will pay for early retirement . I know only one rule in the people's life - you must pay for everything. If you have enough funds - you don't need to work at all, no need in retirement.All the civilisation history shows us that even with recent retirement average age of 65 the level of pencion size is dramatically low comparing with salaries level. So, you can be retired at 60 or even 58, but it means less working population and more retired, smaller pensions. So? People always would like to have better life conditions, but they need to work hard for centuries first. And it's funny to speak about better conditions if you're in deep debts and have no idea how to return them |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:48
All these people living in villas, with private jets and limos spending millions just for fun. All these people who make us work till we are dried up and ready to die with the promise that by working we'll be able to buy a decent life and goods. For example take a look at football. Recently Real Madrid spent 250 millions euros in order to buy 3-4 players! Ronaldo has a yearly wage of 10 million euros!!! My whole family has 30.000 euros in sum. If you are not good at maths, this means that Ronaldo is paid 333 times more than a family a year! Bigger countries like US, Germany, France, England, Italy etc have bigger debts than Greece and Portugal but nobody talks about it. How come? I don't want to speak about civilization history. The biggest part of it is a farse and it's not written by me or you! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 09:53
| Why would a footballer not receive his millions if his work produces a proportional business figure? I mean, if your work would produce a greater value, wouldn't you feel entitled to a proportional share instead of a fixed amount? And btw footballers are some of the people who pay the highest taxes, very often greater than 50% of the income. |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:03
Easy answer- their population is much bigger, they have industry and economics, and they 100% will return their debts. And they work hard for hundred years. Greece has only 10 millions population, big part of them are children, retired people and public workers (who spend money, don't produce nothing). All world's economists and politics agree in one - Greece with their level of economy and industrialisation has no chances to return back their recent debt. But the problem is deeper - Greece need more money just to live at the same standard they're living till now. What means bigger debt with no ideas how and when to return it back. |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:05
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Yes, a footballer is entitled to have a wage of 10 millions a year in this kind of economic system while millions of people and kids die every year out of hunger and lack of water. While 50% of ALL the people on earth live under the 1 dollar limit of poverty. Yes, I think it's ok! Football clubs pay the footballer's taxes. Ten millions is his income. If you search on the net you will find all the info you need. |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:12
It's quite helpful for people in these countries to think that they live all of their lifes just to pay off the debts... A dreamy life!!! I've got a question for you. If all these countries (which are the world's super-economic powers, US, Germany, France etc) are in debt, WHO they owe money??? |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:19
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You can take just a handbook for economy students and will find the answer. It's easy, but too separate question for this thread , I afraid. When you have , even very basic knowledge of economics, you will understand all proceses better |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:23
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You mean I'll understand better the fraud... No offence but I don't want to! In the meantime I think I'll work my life to pay off, whoever I'm in debt to... |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:29
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Easy - you (or your parents or grandparents,etc)didn't need to make such a big debts if you don't wan't to return its. Now, when the money are spent, no time to discuss if you like or not to return what you spend. But it's a good time do decide about future: want you live poor life from your real income, or want you take increase your debts, to live better, and your children will hate you, when they will need to return back your debts. |
Posted By: Zebedee
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:30
Individual investors and corporations, pension funds, governments (both foreign governments and the own government) etc. Basically anyone or anything with a large amount of cash looking for something to invest in. For example, the US national debt mostly consists of US government money (52%) in the form of huge national savings acounts. 4 trillion dollars is from public investments, while 8,5 trillion (25%) consists of money from foreign governments like Japan, China and the oil exporting countries. Other big holders of the US debt are individual investors, local governments, pension funds etc. -------------
Friendship is like wetting your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth. |
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:41
Maybe you should tell these things to the 50+% of earth population under the 1 dollar limit. They will be very happy to hear it! In Greece there is an old saying which goes (in free translation): when someone points the sun, you stare at the finger! Have a nice working-life. Andreas |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:50
Thanks, man, I have it yet ( my working life/social security is 25 yrs till now and I am going to work at least 20 more yrs). All the best to you as well. Only working human being could live better  . |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 10:56
I see no connection with the fact that there are some big businesses and poverty in the world. Is the football business built on exploiting the poor and the starving? There are businesses who exploit the poor but... football?
Regardless if the taxes are paid by the club or the player returns the percent at the end of the fiscal year, it's the players money. Cristiano Ronaldo pays about 2.5 million pounds tax in Spain (and the bad mouths say that he left Manchester United because of the predictions that taxes for his level of income will become 50% in 2009.) |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 11:10
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I like how the system works. economics based on creating debts, than shoving the debt down the throats of people who themselves never asked for those debts. as long as the people who benefittef from the creating of the debt get their poorly invested money back.
It's great isn't it. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 11:19
| If people like early retirement, well paid jobs in the public sector, etc., without having the economy to sustain them, then it means they like debt. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 11:45
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I think you're right, Snobb. The idealist in us all love the sound of socialist utopias. Sounds great. It just isn't realistic. There's not enough resources for the global worker to have cradle to grave benefits and retire early. I think other parts of Europe might be in danger of Greece's problems in the future. In the US, belts will get even tighter.
I pretty much realize I'll be working until I drop. Most of the people I know do. We'll just have to have our fun in between those shifts  ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 15:15
I have to back up Slava on this one. Working till you are 65 does not necessarily mean being a slave. Working is living - laying at the beach without doing nothing for 40 years is death. Laying at the beach on your holiday is living. You have to accept that you are paying for a pension over 40-45 years to earn your savings for 10-15 years (and that works if you do the calculations) With some people of our country (Greece) this is working quite the opposite and it is not sustainable by any means. |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: May 25 2010 at 15:20
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 04:22
I agree that life should be about something else than work.... and that hopefully someday work will be redundant for humanity, but unfortunately... this is wishful thinking
Yes, plunging into cash-filled pockets might sound like a good solution.... but fortunes can easily travel across borders to avoid taxes
Look at the French and the Dutch >>> they've bought up most of Belgium's available housing (thus raising the general prices beyond the grasp of most average Belgians as an unwanted secondary effect) just to escape their own country's taxes on fortune....
Imagine those very same yachts you mentioned in another post still in Greek islands' waters, but the owner's bank accounts in the Bahamas ... life sucks big time in our Western/European modern society, but I'd still prefer that to most other alternatives on our planet.
grim sordid thoughts, I say!! But unfortunately it's the way things go. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 26 2010 at 07:20
Well, if you can make those rich people pay for your early retirements that's fine. Unfortunately, it's not going to be those people paying but those working to their late 60s in other European countries. Now, I don't really think that's OK. |