It was the worst of times and the best of times
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Topic: It was the worst of times and the best of times
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Subject: It was the worst of times and the best of times
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 21:31
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The idea just dawned on me from another thread that prog music is so personal that some albums may appear to be brilliant masterpieces and then the band's next release comes across as an absolute disaster. A case in point.
I can state that I consider Black Bonzo's 'Sound of the Apocalypse' a masterpiece, yet their latest followup release is a fizzer in my opinion, discarding everything that made the debut so great. 'Guillotine Drama' is abysmal in comparison to the SOTA which really stunned me for both musicianship and conceptual songwriting. See my reviews on these for further details if you like.
So there you have their descent from the best to worst.
Another case in point. When Pink Floyd released 'The Wall' I thought I had heard quite possibly the greatest piece of music in history, and then 'The Final Cut' was released. TFC is simply apalling and showed how a band can go from the peak of the mountain to the abyss.
So what albums by an artist can you name where they went from brilliant to the pits on subsequent releases. or you may like to vent your opinion on artists that went the opposite direction; from an apalling album to an absolute masterpiece on their next release. I look forward to the responses. ------------- 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 23:12
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I just thought of poor old Metallica who releases the stinker 'St Anger' and then followed up with one of the most dynamic prog metal albums, the fantastic 'Death Magnetic'. Now theres a contrast.
While we are at it - how do people feel anout ELPs followup to Love Beach?; -------------
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 23:23
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I would say the opposite is more true with PF, but that's just my opinion. Magma went from Merci (rated 2.52 here) to KA (4.47). I've not heard Merci, so I cannot judge it, but KA is the best Zeuhl album I've heard. |
Posted By: TheLastBaron
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 23:41
------------- " Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:Posted By: TheLastBaron
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 23:52
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I think that a classic example is Genesis after Trick of the Tail. For me that album was on par with the gabriel era releases, its just to bad that they couldn't keep it going, if they at least stuck with the trick of the tail sound and tried different things that where still experimental and stuck with the interesting lyrics and concepts it would've been great.
------------- " Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 23:53
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BY THE LACK OF GOD... The Final Cut would be better than the Wall if only the Wall weren't the wall. Its Like Everest to K2. BY THE LACK OF GOD  |
Posted By: Zombywoof
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:12
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I'm going to have to disagree with you about The Final Cut. Without a doubt, it's my favorite Floyd album. ------------- Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ... |
Posted By: apps79
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 02:40
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What about MARILLION going from the painful ''Holidays in Eden'' to the masterful ''Brave''? ------------- When the power of love overcomes the love of power,the world will know peace... listen to www.justincaseradio.com , the first ever Greek Progressive Rock radio |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 03:06
| Close To The Edge -> Tales From Topographic Oceans. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 03:24
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those choices were interetsing and I agree with all but that Final Cut. But ah well, Pink Floyd are like that. Some like Waters, some like Gilmour. They are polar opposites these days each creating their own Floyd band, give me Gilmour anyday. -------------
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 03:24
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Opeth, Blackwater Park is one of the top 5 albums I have ever heard, a masterpiece if ever there was one but the follow up, Deliverence, is incoherant nonsense and just plain terrible. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 04:20
I disagree with this. Deliverance, whilst perhaps not being quite Blackwater park, is far from being an example of a huge fall/fail. That's my opinion ------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 09:38
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hmmm... you know this is hard.... I usually blanket like a lot of my bands. Especially from the masterpieces and the surrounding albums. Biggest dropoffs in general then are probably Genesis: We-can't Dance to Calling All stations, Bob Dylan, Infidels to the still alright Empire Burlesque, Pete Townshend from White City to the still pretty good Iron Man.... But wait.... now that I think of it, Going For the One to Tormato - right? and much lesser, Pallas the Sentinal to the Wedge, a sort of D-grade masterpiece to a D-grade mediocrity. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 11:06
a couple of posts up - i was shocked as I loved Opeth's Deliverance - a melancholy excursion showing how the band can be diverse in style rather than all that caustic gravel voice screaming.
How about Queen - The Game  was followed by 'Flash Gordon' - come on, that was a classic!-------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 12:03
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The Final Cut was, in truth, a rehearsal for Waters' solo career - barely a Floyd album at all. I think it is a masterpiece, but I can understand why it causes such controversy on the site. There is no band I know who is immune from issuing the odd stinker. That is simply human and artistic nature, I'm afraid. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 12:11
I think you're thinking about Damnation, not Deliverance. However, I disagree nonetheless with the original post. I don't think Opeth had any dramatic increase/decrease in quality. Not to say they haven't changed, just that none of the direction changes they had strikes me as uninspired (Even though at first I hated Ghost Reveries). |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 12:13
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I love the Final Cut too, and still it at a quality level well above Pros and Cons and Radio Kaos. The material is so personal and "felt" by the artist, while Pros and Cons feels much more contrived. Plus, Gilmour's touch is still there, albeit lightly, it is enough to raise the bar. The Final Cut is no dog. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 12:17
------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 12:59
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While I don't necessarily endorse that view myself, I'm sure some Fates Warning fans feel that way about Inside Out / A Pleasant Shade of Gray. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 13:12
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I felt the Pink Floyd's drop off was after "Animals".
"The Wall", while conceptually brilliant, really has only a few tracks that don't bore me.
ELP's "Works" was their first disappointing album.
Gentle Giant's "Giant For A Day", was pretty bad, but "The Missing Piece" was hinting of that direction.
Queen lost me at "Day At The Races", Kansas at "Monolith". ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 13:27
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It's not totally a disaster, but Scarsick after BE was kind of like "....................wat?"
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 13:46
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Deep Purple. Machine Head --> Who Do We Think We Are? |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 13:53
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^good one, though I don't actually consider Who Do We Think We Are a disaster.
Relayer --> Going for the One: again, not an actual disaster is Going for the One, but Yes lost a lot of their creativity in my opinion from Relayer to GftO.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 14:02
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I'd consider that an opposite actually. Relayer wasn't great IMO and GFTO is one of my favorite Yes albums :D Drama --> 90215 we can all agree on that one! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 14:11
I would rather do it the other way round (Tormato < Drama). I quite like Yes's 80s music for what it is (to be fair, I quite like Tormato as well, but I can see why it's generally loathed). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 14:16
I agree, 90125 is very different to Drama but not necessarily worse. The same I would say of Duke.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 14:18
Well, let's test that Mike. Poll coming in prog polls  . I'm certainly with you on it. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 14:53
| I don't really think you can do this with Genesis, apart from the huge leap up in quality from the debut to Trespass. Their decline into 80s synth-pop rubbish wasn't really an overnight affair so much as it was a gradual slide into hell. TOTT and WAW are still quite good, barring a couple of tracks, ATTWT and Duke were a different sound but still reasonably enjoyable, Abacab and Shapes were more or less write-offs but had their good moments (I've always like Home by the Sea and it's sequel), and IT and ICD are basically the worst of the worst. There isn't really any moment in there that jumps out as "Here is where we lost our creativity." It was a slow and gradual process, IMHO. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 15:24
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^^ I'd just like to say, I think Invisible Touch is underrated, there are some classic tracks on there, though it does kind of lack atmosphere. After that of course it got bad with We Can't Dance... and then utterly hellish on Calling All Stations. Anyway, I'd say... how about Spock's Beard with the great concept album Snow ----> Feel Euphoria? Of course one can attribute this almost entirely to Neal Morse's departure, but the vast drop in quality remains nonetheless. Also, in the converse, The Flower Kings from the mediocre The Rainmaker to what I consider their best album, Unfold the Future. Neal Morse from his masterpiece Sola Scriptura to the par-for-the-course Lifeline... Although I at least kind of like every album by SB, TFK, and NM to some degree... a more radical change in quality from album to album would be, perhaps The Moody Blues great Seventh Sojourn to the bland pop of Octave (though I somewhat like a few tunes from it) Oh, the biggest of all, imo: U.K. had one of my favorite albums of all time with their debut, an utter masterpiece, and then they lose Holdsworth and Bruford and put out the disappointing Danger Money. It wasn't all bad but a HUGE drop after the first, though I guess that is understandable losing such key members.
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 16:08
Ok, there was a 6-year gap between these albums... still, I agree 100%.
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Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 16:23
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 18:42
and for me "Animals" already was a severe letdown. it is an absolutely boring album, in my opinion -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 02:13
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Bowie: "Scary Monsters" - "Lets Dance", is the worst example of a follow up i can remember. Supreemly followed up by the disasterous "Tonight" to keep the downwards spiral turning.------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Ahmadbarqawi
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 09:32
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Dream Theater :
From Failure to Greatness: Falling into Infinity to Metropolis 2: Scenes from a Memory
From Greatness to Failure: 6 Degrees Inner Turbulence to Train of Thought
Also Queensryche From the Great Epic "Promised Land" to the disastrous "Hear in the Now Frontier"... and its been an Epic fail for those guys ever since ------------- {Flashlights shade shrunken views Of a red demons foxtrot in brews Guns & flowers crown morning news Panic-stricken guilt now ensues} |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 10:29
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It's necessary for balance in the musical universe.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 10:37
Queensryche have not excelled since Operation Mindcrime and its a real pity. -------------
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Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 10:57
I agree, Operation:mindcrime was fantastic, and they followed it up with Empire, which had about 2 good songs on it. I lost track of them after that.
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 13:00
I also agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments. It is such a shame because Operation Mindcrime was so great... perhaps it wasnt them.... ------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 13:19
 One comes from the other.------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 15:20
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Drama and 90125 are a whole of a lot better than Going For The One and Tormato, and 90125 is the best of the bunch. I would probably take the 80s albums over Relayer/Tales From Topographic Ocean/Close to the Edge. Relayers the only one I really (as in very) like, and although its in a different way than 90125, if you translate the like 90125 comes on top. Big Generator is lackluster, Drama's probably better. On the Other Hand, Fragile and especially the Yes Album, a masterpiece, hit very hard in any conflict with 90125. Biggest drop offs in Yes history then: (if I got this right, they're a kind of a distant band to me, despite being in my permanent top 5 or 6) Fragile to Close to The Edge (~ medium drop, because I don't listen to Fragile that much either, but its very good) Going For The One to Tormato (an album I've barely listened to over the years) 90125 to Big Generator (there's just something missing, besides originality, cuz that goes without saying) now I've got some blanks my friends after BG- Union I haven't listened to, Talk no, Keys to Ascension I & II (but ironically the supposedly rare Keystudio, which is a 3/5 in my mind, so pretty good). I have listened to the Ladder (2.75/5, reasonable), and Magnification now, but not throughly, but it sounds like Keystudio or the non-modern parts of the Ladder, so perhaps 2.75/5 again. So to me, Big Generator to...... x......x......x.....The Ladder :is a pretty big drop too. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 15:24
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I thought Genesis did it best on their s/t album (yep. all on one album). Side 1...some of the best music 3-man Genesis ever did. Side 2...WTF? ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: matansaldi
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 20:39
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It's not from the prog department, but still another example of how to fall from heaven to hell. Iron Maiden's Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, and then No Prayer For the Dying. ------------- It's getting better all the time? |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: April 25 2010 at 20:54
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Dream Theater going from Falling into Infinity to Scenes from a Memory. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Bitterblogger
Date Posted: April 26 2010 at 14:08
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GENESIS: Wind and Wuthering>. . .And Then There Were Three
KING CRIMSON: ITCOTCK>In The Wake Of Poseidon
RICK WAKEMAN: Myths & Legends. . .>No Earthly Connection
STARCASTLE: Fountains Of Light>Citadel
ASIA: s/t>Alpha
And ELP of course deserves 3: Works V. 1>Works V.2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Beach. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 05:50
Personally I don't get why people hate In the Wake of Poseidon so much, I think it's a very tight album and actually a great companion piece to ITCOTKC, I don't understand how people like one but not the other.
Anywho.
90125 > Big Generator.
90125 is a fantastic pop record, I don't care what anyone says. So what if it's a "sell out" record, so is Lou Reed's Transformer but that record was better musically than anything he did before. As was Nirvana's Nevermind a better album than Bleach.
Sorry for bringing non-prog examples into this, but anyway. 90125 was pop but it was very inventive pop, Big Generator wasn't, and that was a truly terrible record, except for Final Eyes, that was a pretty good song.
Heh, I quite enjoy Let's Dance actually.
I guess I'm more keen to 80s pop than others here. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: pr@halfpastfour
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 05:57
Don't be sorry for non-prog examples, cause the issue is true for all kinds of music I think, and we meet a lot of examples. ------------- www.halfpastfour.com http://www.paperplanemusic.ca/ |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 07:03
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With that being said.
Led Zeppelin: Presence > In Through the Out Door
But I don't think anything can beat.
Lou Reed: Berlin > Sally Can't Dance > Metal Machine Music.
Holy mother of god what a trainwreck. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 08:36
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90125 great pop !? . I cant agree the beatles are great pop, pop of the 80 is the greatest expresion of dullness. "Owner of a lonely heart" makes me mad make me wanna throw all my yes discs by the window. The band was so great in the 70! it have something very sad seeing those angelical psychedelic gods transforming into very nasty cliches...something about the hippies turning into yuppies IMO. And Lets dance is horrid in comparision with aladin sane, ziggy stardust, the man who sold the world and of course to scary monsters. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 08:59
"Lets Dance", is ok for a POP recording, but i consider Scary Monsters to be one of the Masterpieces
of Late 70's Rock ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 10:04
First off writing off all 80s pop doesn't fly with me, pop music is just as legitimate of a genre as any genre including prog. And I personally think pop music was better in the 80s than progressive rock was in the 80s, then again most neo prog bores me.
I'd take Thriller over Script for a Jester's Tear any day of the week.
MOST albums are horrid compared to those.
But I'm not comparing that album to those anyway, it's a different album in a different style made in a different era, why would I compare it to Ziggy Stardust or Alladin Sane?
Except for the fact that Let's Dance isn't any more pop music for the 80s than Ziggy was pop music for the 70s.
I wish proggies wouldn't be so blatantly anti-pop all the time, when all kinds of prog bands have blatant pop influences even in their "prog" material. Don't tell me Gentle Giant weren't poppy.
A lot of my favorite pop is from the 80s in particular. MJ, Prince, Talking Heads, The Police, a lot of New Wave stuff. I even like some Madonna, I won't lie.
There was some terrible pop from the 80s as with any decade (including the 60s and 70s) and as with any genre, but if you guys think Yes and Genesis were the worst of pop music in the 80s I dunno what to say, other than you need to re-jog your memory because what they did was really creative compared to some of the most generic stuff.
Jefferson Starship anyone? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 10:15
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I don't know what you guys are talking about. Every single prog album is a masterpiece.
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 10:47
hmmm..... so interesting thoughts here - but every single album is not a masterpiece take these..................... please! i reviewed them 1 star cos they were the pits
 http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=94 - EMERSON LAKE & PALMER http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1897 - In the Hot Seat | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=242054 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=94 - EMERSON LAKE & PALMER http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1876 - Love Beach | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=177908 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=94 - EMERSON LAKE & PALMER http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1875 - Works Vol. 2 | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=178027 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=732 - HAWKWIND http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3974 - Masters of the Universe | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=178982 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=4022 - METALLICA http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=19924 - St. Anger | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=185509 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=839 - MIKE OLDFIELD http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4912 - The Millenium Bell | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=188736 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=364 - PINK FLOYD http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=6211 - A Collection Of Great Dance Songs | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=181417 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=364 - PINK FLOYD http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1444 - The Final Cut | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=179493 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3337 - TERA MELOS http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=20990 - Idioms, Vol. 1 | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=248183 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1608 - VANGELIS http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7568 - Mythodea | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=215081 - review http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=766 - RICK WAKEMAN http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=12253 - Frost In Space | http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=236369 - review -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 10:49
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IQ's The Wake released in 1985 had a dark impressive beauty. Totally uncomprmising prog that almost had a punk feel to it.Best neo prog album of that era IMO.
I had so much anticipation for the next album and dear ole dear what a horrible let down. Nomzamo (1987) not only had a different singer but the dark edgy prog was now replaced by AOR glossy overload like some third rate version of Asia. There was even a love duet.
 My opinion of IQ took such a dive that it was only about 10 years after that I discovered that Peter Nicholls had returned (some 5 years earlier) and they were back to making the kind of music I loved (Subterannea)
Nomzamo doesn't seem so bad now and has its moments although it still easily rates at the bottom of their album releases.
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 10:51
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Evrything could be creative compared to 80 pop, including rap, or coca-cola. Maybe thats the reason why i canot stand a lot Genesis material. Just the first ones, there were original compard to żwhat? to psychedelia not to mere synth pop. Everything else is decaing into mere comercialism, wich cold my heart with cliches (Material girl żWhat? And yes, there is influences on pop and prog if you consider pop the beatles or the byrds. And, yes i have a strong antipop taste and cant stand nor of these people you said: And Gentle giant is not poppie if by poppie you mean Madonna, maybe poppie as Caravan
  But anyway if there is a justification of considering Gentle giant poppie. One thing i know is a dont consider "Knots" poppie. Cant imagine how could the put that in a discotheque.
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 10:55
Well i can stand Talking Heads  . I love "Remain in light". And the live versions are wonderfull.
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 11:01
| "Fragile" less than "close to edge", good but dissapointing IMO |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 12:07
Actually there exists a lot of very creative hip hop music, you just gotta know where to look.
Some hip hop artists like Madlib are even progressive rock fans.
Yes and other prog groups were very very influenced by The Beatles, The Beach Boys, The Byrds, Simon & Garfunkel, Beat music like The Hollies and The Zombies, Tin Pan Alley and even Motown. Shucks, Pop music is actually quite important in the development of progressive rock, Moody Blues and Genesis started out as straight up pop bands.
Of course pop music is an incredibly broad musical definition. As pop has been used to describe everything from The Beach Boys to The Jesus and Mary Chain, I wouldn't just casually write off everything that's "pop". Jazz was birthed from ragtime and dixieland, which was very much considered "pop" music.
Even classical music composers like Mozart and Beethoven, some may consider them the original "pop" musicians.
So unless you hate all of that stuff, you can't be truly "antipop", almost everything has some pop in it.
No I'm totally serious. In the 80s I think she was a very strong and consistant singles artist and I'd certainly take The Immaculate Collection over most of today's pop music.
Why not? I'm not saying it's not prog, but there's a lot of pop tucked in there.
The Shulmans started out as straight up pop musicians and they once released a record so poppy that it was thought to have been recorded by The Beatles under a different name. What they did with Gentle Giant was a more sophisticated kind of pop music, combining pop sensibilities with classical ones. Progressive pop. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 13:55
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I dunno, maybe it's because I grew up in the 90s, but to me there is nothing that sounds worse than 80s pop. Even today on the radio when I hear some hip hop guy sample a pop song from the 80s I'm struck with how awful it is. The drum machines, the cheesy synthesizers, the over-polished vocals... It's like everything about it has been engineered to sound bad. I hear people say a lot that Invisible Touch may not be a prog album but it is a terrific pop album. I think that IT is one of the worst pop albums I've ever heard. The unrelenting cheese is just too much for me. Maybe it's a generational thing? |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 14:08
Sorry, but you 5 starred Piper at the Gates of Dawn and 4 starred Led Zeppelin II, so I think you don't really have anti-pop taste. ;-)
I agree that Gentle Giant are sort of vocal prog pop. You may not hear Knots at a club, but it's just as repetitive as most of the music they would play there.
I like Metal Machine Music. Not enough to buy the album he recorded with John Zorn, but I'll probably download the Metal Machine Trio sets he has on his website.
I have to agree with KC, with the exception of the song Take on Me (and I'm not sure whether I like that ironically or seriously) the synths and electro drums of the '80s are inherently bad for me. They're just some of the worst ideas anybody's ever had in the music business. I think it's a generational thing. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Rasvamakkara
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 14:39
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Evergrey: The Inner Circle -> Monday Morning Apocalypse. The Inner Circle isn't even their best album, but it's still far superior to Monday Morning Apocalypse. Unfortunately Torn is even worse. It's pretty sad how the band that released the excellent In Search of Truth has gone down in flames so fast. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 15:19
If your name was Picasso, and you painted something, and someone said it is brilliant, and a year later they came back and looked at your new painting and said something like ... it's not as good ... how would you feel?
From a commercial stand point you are right. From an artistic stand point you are so wrong it's not even funny. On top of it, if my name was Picasso, I might even say something like who are you to tell me what to paint? (... and he did many times, btw!)
And this is important, when you are looking at music. What are you asking? What do you want? ... basically you just told Pink Floyd that you wanted something but that was not what you wanted. And how the heck could Pink Floyd, or anyone else, ever know what you wanted?
You see the problem?
This is the reason why I say here in this board all the time, we have to stop thinking as commercial pundits that think that we should be the definition of music and art! It's never gonna happen. You will have the biggest revolution in your hands, no different than a religious war!
Art, is about change, and about doing different things. So if you don't like "The Final Cut", all you are telling me is that Pink Floyd is not the group of men that you want, or the group of artists that you want. And I'm going to say ... good luck pal ... because what you want is in your head, and you are not capable of putting it into music or paper to go do it yourself! But you will stand up and judge others because of it? ... ohh ... and on top of it make a judgement about the time that is not how many people thought or felt at all. I happen to think that "The Final Cut" was brilliant ... and more than likely also was a part of "The Wall" but it had to be cut short because it was already too long! Well, between you and I, it was not long enough for me! Not even close!
Please place yourself in the artists shoes before you state something like that ... it is rather sad and sometimes demeaning, and this is the reason why so many of these artists have to ignore the "public" ... you wouldn't want me to tell you how to live your life would you? Or anyone else for that matter! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 21:28
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I'm so tired my brain Its like I'm drunk with sleepiness. But anywho, I'm just that guy whose here to say: THE FINAL CUT IS THE BESTEST ALBUM OF THE 1980S. YO, OUT. DA EDIT: Greatest albums of all clymes (or is it climes?) 1. Animals 2. The Wall 3. Dark Side of the Moon 4. The Final Cut 5. Lamb Lies Down On Broadway 6. Quadrophenia 7. Selling England by the Pound 8. Wish You Were Here 9. Who's Next 10. Foxtrot (maybe) Remember I'm DRUNK with sleepiness, wasted, intoxicated, inebriated |
Posted By: Xanthous
Date Posted: April 27 2010 at 22:00
| May sound crazy, but after falling in love with Tales From Topographic Oceans, I can't listen to Close To The Edge more than once a month although I believe that they are both masterpieces. |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:04
I actually like all of those above-mentioned DT albums. Yes, even FII. I find it uplifting.
Agreed about Queensryche. They've been on the slide since Mindcrime, IMO. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:09
Good call. Maiden going from one of their best albums, IMO (the ambitious concept album Seventh Son); to one of their weakest (the more stripped down No Prayer For The Dying) came to my mind straight away when I saw this topic. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:40
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hmmm -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 00:48
-------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 03:18
the problem is that the public is a lazy beast; they want what they are used to. any novelty is rejected at first. it takes some time before they respect anything new and original. sad but true. there are countless examples for that in history. sometimes you are lucky though and the public catches on immediately. but, and here is the spanner in the works: you never know in advance ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 06:18
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Neither of these are prog but here are my two best examples of records that pretty much single-handedly killed my interest in a band I had previously loved for years.
Weezer - Make Believe
REM - Around The Sun
And in proggier waters, I haven't digested it fully yet but Coheed And Cambria, who were the light of my life with their 2003 and 2005 releases, may have lost me with this year's Year Of The Black Rainbow.
Also, to get back to the original post, Red by King Crimson is a masterpiece, whilst Discipline... um. hmm, yes... well if you can't say anything nice...
PS The Final Cut is a masterpiece.
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 08:26
HOW?
That's like saying you like getting stabbed in the ear, it's the closest thing to that experience.
How old are you?
And yes I know people who have the same feeling about 70s synths and bluesy guitar licks.
So it is a generational thing, though I grew up in the 90s so maybe I wasn't overexposed to it, but I enjoy a lot of music from the 80s (very very little of which is prog, the 80s was a terrible decade for prog) and I think it's a pretty underrated decade overall.
I don't know how a prog fan can have problems with synths, but even the electric drums doesn't bother me, then again I'm a electronica fan. As far as the 80s is concerned, I'd take new wave groups like Talking Heads and The Police over Marillion and astonishingly boring stuff like IQ without a second thought. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 08:56
I still think that TFTO is one of the best rock things ever written. I still think of it as a massive symphonic work done by people our age, instead of someone that died 100 years ago that we think is good and no one else is! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 09:07
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 10:33
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i PM'd some of this but worth stating here
i hope my reviews cause people to desire to hear more artists and discover what is out there not the opposite.
If the review is an unfavourable report on an artist, hopefully that is rare. I have not awarded many 1 star ratings. Pink Floyd like everyone has ups and downs and this needs to be acknowledged keeping it real for me and the readers. Only fan boys give constant masterpiece ratings and nothing is achieved. The reader must be able to get an appreciation of deserved albums and ascertain those that they may be better to steer well clear of. It is at their discretion if they want to take the rating seriously. i do if a majority is rating low.
i also look for general consensus - 50 reviewers can't all be wrong if they are giving the same rating.
Like all reviewers there is a necessity to be firm in my convictions, and at the same time remain accountable to those convictions. With accountability comes responsibilty and ultimately validity. If my reviews are valid or taken as such I treat that as affirmation that i am making a difference.
Reviewers want to inform people of which decisions to make - to buy or not to buy - THAT is the question...
how do other reviewers feel? getting off the topic a bit but lets hear it. Am I on the right track here? -------------
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 11:06
Oh its great some finne discussion! 
I have to aclare first one thing that its obvious that by Pop we could be refering to different things!
Thats what my message whats about.
Theres no way to identifie the pop of the sixties to the one of the 80.
The second one is a industrialization of what the sixties pop have of (not just commercial but ) brainwashing. As i said in the forum about innovation the were very innovative...they make the dullest music ever!!!
As KingCrimson 250 said i hate everything (in its sound) expecially when the intention behind this generic sound is so obvious. And dacord commercialty was also a key factor in the sixties...but it wasnt evrything about that ...thats why something other came out of it.
Theres no way to (honestly ) compare The Beatles with Madonna, is like compare a living being with a corpse, something absurd and disgusting.
And yes i have a strong anti-80 pop feeling.
And yes i have a strong pro 60-70 pop...what i find obvious because im defending the beatles!!!
And you miss that i love Caravan, i also have a review on theme, i even like "Golf Girl"!!!!! But theres no synth solos like that in the 80.
 The proof you gave me, if you are in a disco putting "tainted love" or somelike that...and you put "interstellar overdrive"...we could bet the reactions.
And knots could be repetitive but is worked and is surprising it have something like the pop of the beatles unique...and its not pop, is not something for social interaction in a brainwashed area.
Again IMO.
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 11:09
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Pawn hearts is much greater than Godbluff. |
Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 11:19
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If Pop is Mozart and Dixieland also would be folk music and Gosspel ( as soon it was popular) .
And in this case i would be hating everything except Stockhausen
Thats not the case.
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 16:08
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Non-prog but Doves sure did this. 2002's The Last Broadcast was possibly my favourite record of the year and the 2004 follow-up Some Cities was so bad I gave my copy away.
In proggier waters, Porcupine Tree may have done this with Fear Of A Blank Planet to The Incident. The Incident isn't horrendous, but it's certainly a sharp and alarming decline.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 01:54
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 06:07
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Getting back to what someone said about Opeth doing this with Blackwater Park/Deliverance, I think a lot of people misunderstand Deliverance. It was not the follow-up to Blackwater Park. The follow-up to Blackwater Park was Ghost Reveries. Deliverance was simply the next album, if you know what I'm saying. Deliverance was never intended to be some sort of mind-blowing progression of the Opeth sound- it was the sound of Opeth putting the production aside and clearing their heads with a sort of stripped down, garage rock record, or their equivalent of it. Having this in mind, I think it really makes little sense to smash it for not being like Blackwater Park. It's the same band but they're using a different MO so it's not really fair or useful to compare. If we view Deliverance as a relatively carefree, back to basics record, I think it's hard to argue that it was a total failure. |
Posted By: Ahmadbarqawi
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 07:39
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and how could one forget Deep Purple, from the enjoyable "Perfect Strangers" to the totally forgettable "House of Blue Light" ------------- {Flashlights shade shrunken views Of a red demons foxtrot in brews Guns & flowers crown morning news Panic-stricken guilt now ensues} |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 22:11
Oh man up, it's not that extreme, people were just upset because they wanted pop songs. :P It's not even the most ear piercing album I own!
20, and it's ok if people don't like bluesy guitar licks, I don't have much patience these days for classic rock. The point is not the synth itself, it's the synth tone. To someone who wasn't exposed to them at an early age, they're bafflingly awful. It's impossible for me to even understand why everybody thought that was a good idea. It's like listening Steve Howe play a chord, or Nickelback playing the same chord. I have no comment on The Police vs. Marillion because I don't know or care much about either. Except that Message in a Bottle is a pretty annoying song.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Matte
Date Posted: May 02 2010 at 16:31
| Wishbone Ash: There´s The Rub was brilliant but the follow-up Locked In was awful. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: May 02 2010 at 17:19
Uh, no! There have been some great discussions about Tales on this site, it has many, many adherents! However, you are on the right track, with Yes sliding down the big big slide....I rather enjoy "90125" for all its drawbacks, but "Big Generator" was a big stinker IMHO.
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Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: May 02 2010 at 17:24
Someone needs to be drastically educated on the greatness of the 1980s. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 02 2010 at 17:40
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Not very common, because normally it's a process that starts with the band reaching a peak and then starting to degenerate For example I believe that W&W was great and ATTW3 was bad but not terrible, only went really down in ABACAB. ELP reached their peak in Trilogy/BSS, Works I was uneven, Works II was bad and only Love Beach was really terrible. Kansas reached their peak and perfect balance in Leftoverture, PoKR was almost in the same level, Monolith a bit inferior, Audio Visions even lower and only in Vinyl Confessions and Drastic Measures reached their lowest point. Maybe the exception is Yes, with Drama, being that I consider almost a masterpiece and 90125 which IMHO was terrible. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 09:23
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Some good ideas there -------------
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 10:38
As a kid I listened to very little that wasn't Sega Genesis soundtracks so synths even really cheap sounding ones are cool with me. I love the way they sound and they do have a nostalgiac quality.
Now what is that supposed to mean?
Heh, I like that song.
They do have a few annoying songs (the doo doo dah song) but overall The Police are one of my favorite 80s bands, I'd go as far to say they are more "progressive" than Marillion.
One band was mixing rock and new wave with reggae, jazz and world music in a way that no one else had done before, and another were essentially a very good Genesis cover band.
Yeah I won't make a lot of friends with that one.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 12:07
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Actually, I dislike a number of synth sounds. The synth Tony Banks used on SEBTP, for example, was awful. I can't remember the particular instrument but it sounds terrible. That being said, he upgrades for The Lamb, and that one sounds much better. I also think that the synths are far and away the worst part of Images and Words. Kevin's a great player but his tone is pure cheese. Not that Ruddess' "poor man's guitar" is all that much better. But I guess that while I'm not a tremendous fan of synths, 80s synths were especially bad. Like, that is just the worst of the worst right there. I don't think it's even physically possible to get a worse sound than that. Even the synths on Dun's Eros can be a bit too much for me, and that's about as inoffensive as the 80s got. Then when you put those awful sounds in the context of more awful sounds, including drum machines, cheesy vocals, and an entire production philosophy that seems to based around the assumption that adult contemporary is the only thing people listen to, it just becomes unbearable. Anyway, all that is to say that no, I will not defend 80s Genesis. They did not make good pop. They made terrible pop. |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 12:22
This was the first thing that came to my mind as well. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 13:19
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Hi,
Wow ... cheesy guitar and keyboards?
Does that person know that synthesizers were not the synthesizers that you hear and know today? Does that person care?
And to suggest that a musician is not good because it sounded cheesy? When we're talking 35 years ago and only a handful of groups had the guts to even try synthesizers until they got simpler a few years later?
Wow! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 09:39
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Er, no one's talking 35 years ago. That would be mid 70s. We're talking 80s. A lot of groups had the guts to try synthesizers by that point. Also no one is suggesting that a musician is not good because they sound cheesy. We are suggesting that music is not good because it sounds cheesy. That is something completely different. And I'm not sure what that second sentence is supposed to mean. Are you suggesting that synthesizers from the 80s are different from modern synthesizers? If so, that's pretty obvious. I'm not entirely convinced you've been following the discussion. It seems more like you just dropped in to let us know how close-minded we are being for not appreciating every facet of music ever. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 11:54
Why?
We know what we like, we only have a well defined musical taste.
We don't have to love every album and song a band released. I believe a better example of "close minded" is a person who listens names and loves an album because X artist released ir, we on the contrary, are able to love or hate an album released by our favourite artist or band, because we are here for the music, that's the best definition of open minded, listen first and approve or not an album.
I spent my first youth listening Wakeman solo stuff, I would had bowed before him adter his first albums, but was able to notice that Rhapsodies was not remotely on the same level.
Look at my avatar, it's obvious I'm a fan of Peter Gabriel, but OVO was terrible according to m taste and I'm able to accept it as I accept PG1, 2 and 3 are excellent.
A close minded fan loves the artist, no matter if they reease a terrible album.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 12:01
Hey, you haven't lived until you've been stabbed by an ice pick in the forehead... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 14:26
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Henry talks about the Synth tones, and he's right.
I remember when Rick Wakeman tired of the time limitations of the Mellotron, started to try with the Birotron (Not sure if also with the Novatron), back in the late 70's and 80's, the result was horrendous, it sounded fake, and even when he didn't had to rely in an 8 seconds tape, but he sound was inferior.
Probably it's more obvious with him, but I saw Wakeman in the 70's with his Hammond, Mellotron and Mini Moog, but saw him in the 90's with a small keyboard that sounded like a Casiotrone, it was frightening.
Probably for a guy who listened Wakeman for the first time in the 90's, it was great, but for people raised with Mellotron, Hammond C3 and Mini Moog, the difference was clear and hard to accept.
Iván
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: May 08 2010 at 17:18
That was less clear than I remembered it being. You were expressing disbelief that the tone could make such a big difference in your perception of the music, and and I was trying to give an example. If you told Yes and Nickelback to play a middle C chord, while technically they would be playing the same thing, and would probably have more similarities than '70s and '80s pop music, I imagine most of us would find one of them much better. It's the same thing with synth choices in the '80s for me. It's fine if you like it, even though I don't know how, but you have to understand how a lot of people perceive it. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 08 2010 at 17:30
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Sorry Henry, I misinterpreted what you said.
But either way, what makes up a good tone or good sound is obviously subjective. I personally don't find 80s pop synths to be more cheesy or irritating than the synths used by neo prog bands (or by Wakeman on Tormato), and I hate a lot of the synths used in modern pop stuff but the 80s pop synth sound has a real charm for me.
Blah, SEBTP has my favorite synth tone ever, the synth solo from Cinema Show is probably the best piece of music Banks ever wrote in his career. Total seriousness.
The synth used is an ARP and it's a fantastic one, and probably the best after the moog and korg, it's used by everyone from Brian Eno to Stevie Wonder to Pete Townshend.
The only 80s synth that really bugs me is oddly enough, the ones typically used by neo prog bands like IQ.
And I hate Dream Theater's synth tones a lot, then again I hate everything about that band. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 08 2010 at 18:03
Well that depends on how you define open minded.
I think a lot of people here rate an album's "quality" by how much it resembles the "prefered" style of the artist and how "prog" it is. There's no way that is objective, I'm not implying that there is a truly objective way to review a piece of music because there really isn't and there seems to be a pretense among people here that "objective" reviews is what they call themselves doing.
What you call closedminded I call simply having an opposing opinion.
What I would call closedminded is accusing people of being delusional just because they like a piece of music that you don't, not considering the fact that maybe, you know, they actually like it?
I'm not denying that Yes (my favorite band) have some awful awful material but 90125 isn't one of those albums in my opinion, it's a pretty creative pop record and a step above everything they've done since (at least up until Magnification), and other than it being "pop' I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for it's alleged awfulness, I personally can't see how someone thinks Tormato is a better album other than that it's more in the "right' style. Which IMO is not how you review a record.
Just because it sounds like the older stuff doesn't mean it's good and just because it doesn't sound like the older stuff doesn't mean it's bad. I almost find it ironic how much craptalk bands get for straying too far from their older sound, I guess you can't progress too much. There's several examples other than making the dreaded pop record, weither it's The Strawbs going country (oh noes) or Ozric Tentacles taking influences from genres that aren't acceptable for proggies like reggae.
What is progressive rock? That's making genre bending progressive music right? Ok right. But at this point it's really tough for a band to be prog AND progressive anymore because these words have such different meanings now. Any band that blends prog influences with that of "primitive" genres like hardcore punk, hip hop, reggae, pop and other genres that prog fans choose to remain forever ignorant to are considered blasphemous, thus, not prog.
In other words, progressive rock by the definition of a lot of prog fans, is rock music that progresses, but not beyond the comfort zone. And I'm just talking about actual progressive rock, which neo prog and stuff like Dream Theater isn't in the slightest. It's conterfeit prog, an imitation and an inferior one at that, and nothing more. But that is what is acceptable as "true" prog and not the post 70s rock bands that have really done some challenging, genre defying rock music, that is where my bitter resentment lies.
Because unfortunately not everyone who likes progressive rock actually has a progressive outlook of their own, quite the opposite.
I think far too often that even the most awful prog albums get more rave reviews than the best non prog albums on this website. I swear adding "prog related" artists is mostly just an excuse to rave about how superior prog is to everything else. Today, being prog is just imitating the old stuff really, that's about as progressive as Wolfmother. There are still prog bands who actually are progressive, don't get me wrong. But most of the real progressive music groups can't be considered prog because they stray too far from the "formula". The fact that progressive rock actually has a formula now is such a ridiculous contradiction I don't know even know where to start.
Prog has ceased to be my favorite genre of music after the 70s and not until recently has it really gotten interesting again. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 08 2010 at 19:04
Actually, that's a good point. Cinema Show does have a good tone to it. And it is an exceptional performance, of course. But Dancing and Firth have both got, in my opinion, awful synth tones, despite the excellent playing. So does Wardrobe, but that's buried enough in the mix that it doesn't drive me nuts. Meanwhile, in listening to The Lamb, ToTT and WAW, the synth tone has consistently improved, IMHO. Fully agree with the DT bit, though. It seems to me that whether it's Moore or Ruddess, if you enjoy the synth playing it's in spite of the tone, not because of it (especially with Moore I find a lot of moments where you hear something that's well played and well written, but still just sounds awful, but you tolerate it because you know it would sound good with a better tone) |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 08 2010 at 19:18
I believe nobody here likes a band because it sounds like a 70's icon, last week I have clearly expressed how much I dislike bands like Starcastle or Unifaun because they clone Yes and Genesis adding very little (if something) of their own. A good band may be inspired on a determined band as 5Bridges or be completely different to all like Shadow Circus and both be excellent, what I search is originality (Not uniqueness, because this is almost impossible to achieve), skills and ability to release a coherent and good album .
I don't care if they are inspired in Yes or in nobody (something very hard), I guide myself for my taste. That's all I ask.
I believe nobody here will call another member delusional for having a different taste, in my case I hate Rap, but know a lot of people who love it, and there's no problem because it's their taste and they have the God give right to like whatever they want, again in my case I like a Fleetwood Mac album like Rumours much more than almost every Yes release, I don't care if it's Rock or Pop or whatever, I simply like it.
Hey, this is a contradiction with your last paragraph.
You said:
But then you change 180° degrees:
When you affirm you don't understand how somebody likes Tormato more than 90125, you are falling exactly in your definition of close minded.
In my case I don't like any of both albums, but understand how some people like Tormato and others 90125, even when my taste is different, but most important, I respect their tastes..
BTW: My reviews are my reviews, I review and rate an album in a totally honest way and support my opinions, which I believe is better than just rating a couple of albums. I reviewed 90125 with 1 star because I believe it's a terrible album and Tormato with 2 stars because Future Times and Onward, something I explained in my review (Not much better to be honest), something you can't do in a rating without review. 
Some bands evolve for better and some evolve for worst, it depends in each case.
Neither a band is good because they sound like an older band, neither it's bad for the same reason.
A band is good because they are able to write good music and perform it with skills.
Not right, Progressive Rock is a genre like Pop, Rock or whatever, some of us like it, others hate it, that's normal.
Have you checked Crossover?
They have a lot of bands and artists with strong mainstream influences and considered as 100% Prog according to the site and their members.
Now, I don't believe I would like Prog Rap or Hip Hop, because I don't like Rap neither Hip Hop, but that's my taste and you have to accept it even if you don't share it.
BTW: Prog fans don't choose to remain ignorant about some bands,most of us give a cjance o everything, we just like it or not.
Again wrong, Progressive Rock doesn't have to progress, it may or not, that's the musician's call.
I believe you are living in the past, Neo Prog has almost 30 years and Dream Theater has 21 years since their first release, many things have passed since then
Have you heard The Red Masque? or maybe Factor Burzaco? or maybe Aviva from Russia or Shadow Circus from USA?
Prog has evolved a lot, there are excellent and bad new bands as there are good, average and terrible old bands. Just listen Pendragon Pure...Yes a Neo Prog album, so revolutionary that sounds like nothing else they (or any other Neo Prog band) did before.
Have you heard She by CAAMORA? A Neo Prog Opera that sounds nothing like Neo Prog.
Why unfortunately? People have heir own taste, if they want to listen exclusively the same music they heard in their childhood, good for them, accept their option and respect it.
Awful for you maybe...You criticize close minded people but you are the first one to qualify an album as awful only because you don't like it....Live and let live, tastes are like a$$es everybody has one.
Better listen some real new Prog and then talk, not even albums from ex Prog band members sound like the 70's, the latest Steve Hackett albums are incredibly aggressive and oriented owards Avant Garde.
Please explain this new contradiction..You say Prog is just imitating but then you say you recently find Prog interesting, I believe you have a strange pleasure in ranting.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 09 2010 at 04:33
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You know, I really don't disagree with most of what you said I just want to say that you missed my point a lot of times, but I don't want to get into a dreary argument.
I will give you props for liking Rumours, maybe you're not so bad after all.
Most mainstream rap of which you dislike is gangsta rap derivative. I do consider some gangsta rap albums like Straight Outta Compton, The Chronic, Doggystyle and Ready to Die to be masterpieces of the genre, but for the most part the whole gangsta thing wore out it's wecome after the 90s.
It's a stereotype that all rap sounds the same, putting aside the ready for consumption mainstream radio stuff, every region has a rap scene with it's own distinct style that reflects that culture. I'm from the Memphis, Tennessee area and of course we are responsable for the ever so critically acclaimed Crunk movement.
But anyway. I'd argue that progressive rap indeed exists, it doesn't partularly involve lengthy solos at fast tempos in odd time, but still something different.
Early east coast groups like Da La Soul and Tribe Called Quest expressed very sophisticated tastes, evidenced by their choice of samples, which were incredibly diverse. DJ Shadow (just a DJ, no rapping) made pieces of music entirely out of samples but distorted and obscured them in a way that they weren't regonisable, his pieces are characterized by very layered sounds, hypnotic beats and odd time signatures and has influenced artists as diverse as Radiohead and the chick in my avatar whom I know you aren't a fan of.
And then there's Madlib, who has sampled prog artists like Gentle Giant, Frank Zappa, Egg, Gong and Chris Squire on several occasions. Ya know, I always thought a lot of prog would make excellent hip hop samples, especially Squire's groovy bass work. Good to know that at least a few DJs are catching up to the sounds of prog.
But yeah, hip hop has always been a strong genre and it still is, but as of now it's all in the alternative and underground scenes, modern commercial rap doesn't appeal to me, including Kanye West who I find extremely overrated, he has pretty good flow and some creative beats from time to time but his music is nowhere near as great as HE thinks it is, truly an obnoxious personality. Not a fan of his overuse of autotune either, which has now become somewhat of a running joke because it makes him sound like a robotic goat. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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