Prog and Punk are definitely not lightyears away from each other as certain parts of the rock press would like us to believe. The obvious case here is Sex Pistols and PIL frontman John Lydon citing Peter Hammill's NADIR'S BIG CHANCE as a major influence. Also listen to Van Der Graaf's live shocker VITAL, where Prog epics get a rough treatment, ending up as rather intelligent punk songs. In reverse PIL's first three albums are definetely worth a listen, some tracks carry a few, if minute prog elements. Or get Fripp's solo effort EXPOSURE (where prog meets punk meets pop meets ambient meets metal), or the League of Gentlemen releases.

On the Epitonic website you will find a Mathrock section with tons of great free tracks to download, most of which I would describe as a crossover between punk and prog. Check it out on http://www.epitonic.com/ - http://www.epitonic.com/

46and2 wrote: The Mars Volta also ATDI was a punk band

The Mars Volta? When?

King of Loss wrote: BUt of course I want to sever these ties

.....lemme get the scissors

The Dead Kennedys were definitely something special.  One of the very, very few interesting bands to come out of the 70/80's hardcore scene.  They came before punk's commercialization, and thus had a semblance of creativity and satire not present in 99% of the later bands in the scene.  I do not doubt that they could be considered prog-punk.  They used a lot of jazz motifs/chords and often had rather long and interesting songs, many relating in theme.

To bad the rest of them didn't catch on.

Dear all,

How could you possibly forget those most wonderful The Stranglers, who seem to me to be so much on the proggy side of things and so little on the punk? Just take any of their pieces, either lengthier or not, and pay attention to their arrangements, never too simple, always attractive. From the sensational rendition of Walk on By to Golden Brown, to their punkiest tracks, to me it all seems to point to a prog approach. See their never-tired organ, frolicksome bass lines, intellipunk guitar and energetic & intricate & inspired drumwork and above all, their carefullness for detail and maybe you'll think so too. Maybe it was only their energy and somehow innate attitude (along with their powerful sound ) that made them be looked upon as punk. Still, their loyalties seem to go to something complex, simultaneously intelligent and vital and full of musicianship. Whatever it is, however mongrel-like they may be, they really are a noble mongrel.

KeyserSoze wrote: 46and2 wrote: The Mars Volta also ATDI was a punk band The Mars Volta? When?

Omar and Cedric from TMV were in ATD-I.  They left the band just as it was about to break into the big time, i.e. become very very big.  ATD-I were purveryors of "emo", a punk/hardcore derivative.  You can hear some of sounds that later developed into TMV, but only a slight hint.

TMV are 1,000 time better than ATD-I!

I reckon this album is the link between the two genres. This is a prog rock album from a punk band. There are virtually no punk elements to it at all! Apparently super pretentious frontman Jaz Coleman sacked his punk rhythm section for not being 'progressive enough'

However, it's mostly crap so dont buy.  

Blacksword wrote: IHowever, it's mostly crap so dont buy.

You're right, Killing Joke are a joke.

proggin' justin wrote: Dear all, How could you possibly forget those most wonderful The Stranglers, who seem to me to be so much on the proggy side of things and so little on the punk? Just take any of their pieces, either lengthier or not, and pay attention to their arrangements, never too simple, always attractive. From the sensational rendition of Walk on By to Golden Brown, to their punkiest tracks, to me it all seems to point to a prog approach. See their never-tired organ, frolicksome bass lines, intellipunk guitar and energetic & intricate & inspired drumwork and above all, their carefullness for detail and maybe you'll think so too. Maybe it was only their energy and somehow innate attitude (along with their powerful sound ) that made them be looked upon as punk. Still, their loyalties seem to go to something complex, simultaneously intelligent and vital and full of musicianship. Whatever it is, however mongrel-like they may be, they really are a noble mongrel.

 The Stranglers rules!!!

The Stranglers were fantastic, and only their singles really counted as punk - but they were way beyond almost any other punk act in the UK.

The Damned forayed into progressive realms quite frequently - and psychedelia too, covering "White Rabbit" (Great Society/Jefferson Airplane) and "Alone Again Or" (Love). "Smash It Up Part II" and "History of the World" are well worth checking out, as is "Grimly Fiendish" - a pop/psychedelic masterpiece of the 1980s.

Around the same time, the Dukes of the Stratosphear (AKA XTC) released a real cracker of an album called "25 O'Clock", which was hyped as a long-lost masterpiece of psychedelia. Maybe it wasn't long lost at the time, but it is now - and it is a masterpiece!! Early Floyd fans should check it out especially.

I'm not sure about "Motivation Radio" being punk in any way, but the other Gong offshoot; Planet Gong and the Here and Now band released "Floating Anarchy - Live 1977", which is a great mix of proggy space rock and a punky sound.

Here and Now themselves created a fantastic late-Clash/Police style of reggae/punk, which is also unutterably superb; check out "Fantasy Shift" and to a lesser extent "Theater". The cover of Bowie's "The Man Who Sold The World" on "Fantasy Shift" is brilliant.

KeyserSoze wrote: 46and2 wrote: The Mars Volta also ATDI was a punk band The Mars Volta? When?

The Dead Kenedys may have progressed beyond most punk bands, (which isn't hard to do) but how do they compare with other prog groups? (I'm actually asking, someone answer)

^ we know, already- you don't like punk and refuse to give any ground. If you find it to be too soft on the punk issue around here, you could always try a country music forum ).

TMV has a thorough punk influence that is immediately obvious to anyone who can tell the difference between MTV-friendly emo and The Fall. Sure, you can fool yourself that all punk is three chords and shouting, but that's the same mental reductionism that claims prog is just odd time-signatures and pomposity. Trying to identify the specific punk influence in TMV is like trying to identify the difference that the blues made to the Rolling Stones...

I wouldn't compare the DKs to prog, just like I wouldn't compare Rush with John Cage...it's apples and oranges. But basically, the level of musicianship and discipline among the various members of the DKs was at a fairly high standard- not just 'for punk' but for any non-virtuoso genre of music, which includes a majority of prog. The quality of songwriting was incredibly high; lyrically, Biafra (an admitted fan of Zeuhl) rarely disappoints in any of his projects...whereas a fair number of prog bands can be said to suffer in that respect.

Do they belong filed next to Yes in your collection? Of course not...but IMAO they wouldn't sound too out of place next to Zappa, for instance...

punk is a sh*t

they killed the rock

James Lee wrote: ^ we know, already- you don't like punk and refuse to give any ground. If you find it to be too soft on the punk issue around here, you could always try a country music forum ).

Hardy-har

James Lee wrote: TMV has a thorough punk influence that is immediately obvious to anyone who can tell the difference between MTV-friendly emo and The Fall.

How so?

James Lee wrote: Sure, you can fool yourself that all punk is three chords and shouting, but that's the same mental reductionism that claims prog is just odd time-signatures and pomposity.

No it isn't, perhaps punk music has grown different over time (Although it still fails to impress me) but three chords and shouting was the original idea, while the idea of prog was to expand the idea of what popular music can be. I always thought punk had the opposite intentions. I guess I'm just ignorant for not following it well enough to see any large change in it, but then again people like you haven't made much of an effort to tell me.

James Lee wrote: Trying to identify the specific punk influence in TMV is like trying to identify the difference that the blues made to the Rolling Stones...

Oh, come on, don't compare the Rolling Stones, a group who took the blues and changed it to fit thier liking, to The Mars Volta, who must have completely rearranged the idea of what punk music should be if any was used in thier music. That's like saying rnb influenced Presly in the same way that the blues influenced Nirvana.

But if any punk was incorporated in The Mars Volta's music, the least you could do is try to explain how to me instead of saying it's impossible.

James Lee wrote: I wouldn't compare the DKs to prog, just like I wouldn't compare Rush with John Cage...it's apples and oranges.

Why not compare them? Different things can be compared. And I was asking how they compared not because I saw no prog in thier music, but because I've never heard any.

James Lee wrote: But basically, the level of musicianship and discipline among the various members of the DKs was at a fairly high standard- not just 'for punk' but for any non-virtuoso genre of music, which includes a majority of prog. The quality of songwriting was incredibly high; lyrically, Biafra (an admitted fan of Zeuhl) rarely disappoints in any of his projects...whereas a fair number of prog bands can be said to suffer in that respect.

Technical musicianship may transend the genre of punk rock, but have they done anything that transends popular music? I'm actually asking, I don't know. If thier music truly is that technical, maybe they don't even fit in the punk genre.

James Lee wrote: Do they belong filed next to Yes in your collection? Of course not...but IMAO they wouldn't sound too out of place next to Zappa, for instance...

Is that because they're innovative, or because they're music can sometimes be silly?

amused 2 KAOS wrote: yes, i beleive it exists, and it can easily (for the most part) be found at your local cd shop. it is "frankenchrist" by the dead kennedys. the reason why i say this is because 1.have you heard of a punk album that takes up both sides thats only 10 SONGS LONG!?!!!?!?!?? 2.its a punk album that only has 1 song that is traditionally punk on the whole album, most of the others are very prog like. 3.most of the songs are about 5 minutes long (which is right about in between punk and prog song lengths)

Let's agree on something. It's not because a band do long songs that it's progressive! Prog music got tons emotions, great instrumentation, and all, it not just music with long songs!

Also, please, people, stop saying you think every bands you like are prog! It's possible, in your life, you will encounter a band you like, and that this band will not be prog... It,s possible really...