UK General election 2010
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Topic: UK General election 2010
Posted By: lazland
Subject: UK General election 2010
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 15:19
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Oh well, here we go again - it's election time here in dear old Blighty. You have a choice between Mr Brown's mob, that nice Old Etonian Dave, Nick's Lib Dems, the Scots, Welsh, or Northern Ireland Nationalists, traditional unionists in Northern Ireland, the bloody hateful fascists of the British Nationalist Party  , loonies and eccentrics, genuine independents such as that nice Doctor MP in Worcester, or celebs who are standing in "protest" at the expenses scandal ridden MPs.This is open to all nationalities. Let's see if PA really is a representative sample of the electroate a la Mori and the rest of the polls. My vote is for Nationalists - have to as I am a member of plaid Cymru, the Welsh nationalist party. Delievered 400 leaflets today with the boy, and our feet are aching!  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Replies:
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 15:28
There's no communist party? 
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 15:30
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I've been giving this way too much thought, recently. I might as well share. I popped onto http://www.politicalcompass.org - http://www.politicalcompass.org the other day to see how I squared up to the three main parties... I'm way out in an opposite corner of the grid! It says I'm closest to the Greens, but they won't be getting my vote due to some their absurd anti-science policies and ill-thought out hippyisms (ban all zoos, etc.). So basically, if I want to vote on policy grounds I'm f**ked. That only really leaves tactical voting (aim: keep out Tories at all costs). I'm currently in a Labour constituency, but I have no idea how safe a seat it is. The last thing I want to do is toss a vote to the Lib Dems (who I agree with on a few things but nowhere near enough to actively support the party as a whole) if that's just going to result in a gain for the Tories in my area. Gah. What a headache our ridiculous, f**ked-up electoral system is. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 15:31
Nope. We don't even have a real Socialist Party. Left wing politics in the UK is a divided, contradictory mess. |
Vompatti wrote:Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 15:54
| What's the difference between the "nationalists" and the BNP? |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 16:12
The Scottish Nationalists want independence from the rest of the UK. Almost half a billion GBP (near enough $1bn) spent on housing the Scottish government when there was already a suitable building available! Preponderance of extra politicians etc... complete waste of public money. Devolution was a BIG mistake (sorry Steve!) in Scotland at least.
All a bunch of crooks anyway (see recent expenses scandal)... I won't be voting.
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Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 16:21
| I'm barking mad and somewhat independent, so... go figure. I'm also not British. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 16:33
| Cats bark? |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 16:49
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I had read somewhere the radical hippie attitude: the real hippies are not voting for humanist, left-winged parties. No. The whole electoral system is a farce and giving an illusion the system is functioning. Radical left-wingers were voting for fascists out of pure cynicism. Hence my little contribution to the cynical political views. However, it looks disgusting, and the slightest possibility such a party exists (let alone have a chance of political relevancy) makes a bitter taste in my mouth. ------------- |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 17:10
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I need to talk to a few more taxi drivers to make up my mind. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: April 07 2010 at 23:15
| I'm thinking of voting for the Scottish National Party. |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 01:30
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This is my view: SNP - Raw populists, would say most things to get votes. The idea of independence is not real either with the enormous infrastructure, social and health problems Scotland is facing. Number one priority would be to dry up Scotland before they can think about going alone. Besides of that, I quite like SNP. Labour - An enormous own goal with that NI hike. I would had voted them (if I could), but that suicide note they have just delivered gives me second thoughts. LibDems - I like them. But is it a wasted vote ? Conservatives - Is David Cameron for real or is he just the human face of a party who will retract into being a Little England party again when in power ? I think David Cameron is their biggest positive and negative. I also like their policies.........a lot. But the fear of Little England makes it difficult to trust them. All parties support my core beliefs and I do not think there will be a massive change whatever happens. Great Britain is the most conservative country in the world. There is no big differences, post-Thatcher. All the changes has already been made. So happy voting ! Btw. I also happens to think that Margaret Thatcher was a bigger revolutionary than Lenin. The proof can be found everywhere in Great Britain. Here at Clydeside, we went from 30 odd shipyards to one shipyard. From 50 odd coal-mines to none. From heavy industries to call-centres. That lady turned this area upside down.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 04:38
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Thatcher gave this country economic and social cancer, which has been slowly killing us off ever since. Our economic model is not sustainable imo. You cant have an economy where virtually nothing is 'produced' and is solely reliant on banking, financial services and consumption. We have no safety net, no contigency.
10 years from now, you'll need a degree to be a bank clerk, or a driving instructor in the UK. These will be the high brow, middle class jobs on offer to an enormous job market, all armed with meaningless degrees, and saddled with a lifetime of debt to pay off their college years. Britain will undergo a brain drain, as anyone with any aspiration flees abroad to find work, leaving behind sink estates full of people who left school at 16 refusing to do any work that gets their hands dirty. This work will be undertaken by an ever increasing immigrant population, which will become harder to track and manage. The government will eventually turn a blind eye to hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants allowing unscrupulous employers to exploit by paying well under min wage. Who will I vote for? I dont know, and I'm not convinced it makes any difference. The stable door is banging in the wind, and the horse has long since bolted. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 05:07
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I'm a member of The Labour Party so my vote for them is a given. Labour will lose because the average voter believes "it is time for a change and they're all the same any way..."  |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 05:25
It's always 'time for change' That has been the basic premise of every election campaign by every party since we established democracy in this country. It's a hollow and meaningless slogan. The sort of change that is really required will never come about because our economic model doesn't support a more even distribution of wealth and mass investment in critical public services. However, I think you're right about Labour losing. Brown is toast. The British people are sadly not that bright. I've little time for NuLab, but if people think they're going to be better off under Cameron, they are in for an extremely unpleasant surpise. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 05:26
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Many voters, tabloid rags & pundits with a 2nd class degree in political science from their local polytechnic state it is a time for change.
Why? Despite everything which has happened in the last few years, e.g. allegedly illegal Iraq war, our own little Vietnam in Afganistan, expenses scandals (by no means just the ruling party), recession/banking scandals (again, by no means the fault of the ruling party, except perhaps by ommission of regulation), the bottom line is, the Labout government has not necessarily done a bad job since 1997. Yes, the country's not at the top of the world super-power list & yes, there is high unemployment, youth delinquency + all the ills of a modern developed society - but is this the fault of the ruling party? No. Are we as a country alone in suffering these ills? No. Would they have been/will they be any better under a Conservative administration? NO. Maybe most importantly, would change for the sake of change adversely affect the UK's as yet delicate economic recovery? In my very humble opinion, yes. OK - Gordon Brown is an ineffectual leader & should be replaced, but replace the whole government??? I know where my vote's going. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 12:42
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http://www.socialequality.org.uk/ - Socialist Equality Party Its running a few candidates |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 14:40
No we don't, and the Socialist Equality Party in the last post is a good example. The history of the left in Britain has been incredibly depressing, with more factions than you can wave a stick at and all of them so far up their own arses that they can never be taken seriously. If I had listed all of them, I would have used up most of PAs server space, and, besides, I am heartily sick of all of them after 26 years of active TU politics. The country is craving for an electable, coherent, and democratic progressive socialist party, and I feel really sorry for the choice confronting voters in England. At least in Wales we have that party, Plaid, and SNP in Scotland, but England? I crave for the day when a real choice is before us all and real progressive change comes about. I'm not holding my breath though. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 14:58
| What is progressive politics ? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: April 08 2010 at 15:15
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UK leftist politics may be confusing and a mess, but at least you got them. The Democratic Party has always been a disappointment to me, and despite my hopes a leftward shift to my personal beliefs under Obama, no cigar. I believe the US is the only industrial nation without a social democratic party.... But I'll leave this thread now, suppose I have no real point in contributing. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 09 2010 at 04:27
Your opinions are perfectly valid and your contribution more than welcome. I'm often intrigued how people see British Politics from the outside. We must seem like an island of complete nutjobs, run by chinless, upper middle class crooks. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 09 2010 at 04:31
^ Not at all  Speaking as an outsider: I didn't know that Labour's movement towards the right and (neo)liberal policies during Blair's reign was so frustrating for its supporters, I've always thought them as fairly representative of the British left. |
Posted By: Lizzy
Date Posted: April 09 2010 at 04:44
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Having the Conservatives back to power should come as something natural. In a two, two-and -a-half party system the alternation in power is one of a system's main features. As for the Nationalists, their increasing popularity should not come as a surprise especially in a time of economic crisis (happened throughout Europe), not to mention the immigrants issue. So, for an outsider like myself, the evolution of British politics should seem fairly normal. ------------- Property of Queen Productions... 
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 09 2010 at 04:55
Labour had to abandon their socialist values in order to get elected. The previous Tory government had privatised all our utilities and transport. Labour had a clause in their constitution which committed the party to public ownership of such things. Bascially the Tories left a very strong consumer capitilist legacy that couldn't be undone, without going through huge economic upheaval. The Tories basically made sure that Britain would never fall into the hands of the socialists ever again. In the early 80's, Tony Bliar, then Labour MP for Beaconsfield, was already talking of the need to reform and 'modernise' the Labour party, as he saw the Tories selling off the family silver, and relinquishing the state of as much responsibility to its citizens as possible. NuLabour is not a socialist party. In fact they are almost to the right of John Majors Tory government. Their pandering to big business and their stealth taxes on the poor, while snuggling up to the well off, make them distinctly right wing imo. Only the Liberal Democrats have a manifesto with any socialist credentials and no one votes for them, as they consider it a wasted vote. Political parties have a choise as far as I can see; upset the rich, or upset the poor. They cant be all things to all men, and that's what Labour have tried to do. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: April 09 2010 at 05:58
Very true - sit on the fence for too long & all you get is a pain in the arse: 
captions on a postcard to the usual address please -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: April 09 2010 at 08:41
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It's basically a case of "Don't vote, the Government will get in!" I've always been Labour but don't think I can bring myself to vote for them this time, particularly since they were insane enough to elect Harriet Harman deputy leader. All the parties seem to be offering the same thing - economically conservative and socially liberal. This is bit of a problem for me since I'm economically liberal but socially conservative.  They say you get the government you deserve so maybe that's what's happened in the UK. Egalitarian economic policies offered by old school Labour were continually rejected by the electorate so we've ended up with all the parties pretending to be a cuddlier version of Thatcherism. If Screaming Lord Sutch was still around I'd probably vote for him - after all he did promise to set all accountants in cement and use them as tunnel supports on the London Underground! ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 10 2010 at 02:53
| So, a Labour candidate has been sacked for offensive tweets where he used ''unacceptable language'' to attack leading Westminster members. He also referred to the elderly as ''coffin dodgers''. My local MP initially backed him, making the excuse the guy was young and all would be ok. However as soon as the Labour Party sacked him, this same person was acclaiming this as the correct decision. Sorry, I can't trust any of these people. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: April 10 2010 at 05:23
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Hooray for FPTP! http://www.voterpower.org.uk - http://www.voterpower.org.uk |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 10 2010 at 05:36
| ^ My voter power is apparently 0.229. |
Posted By: Jon The Impaler
Date Posted: April 10 2010 at 11:21
 ------------- Its expensive being poor |
Posted By: Jon The Impaler
Date Posted: April 10 2010 at 11:23
 ------------- Its expensive being poor |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: April 12 2010 at 02:07
Presumably they use a few more swear words though.  ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 12 2010 at 02:32
------------- What? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 12 2010 at 13:28
Lizzy - the Welsh & Scottish Nationalists in the UK are left wing parties, both promote policies similar to those that Old Labour used to prior to Comrade Blair's election. There has been an increase in support for United Kingdom Independence Party, who want us out of Europe, and the Fascist BNP in England, which, as you suggest, is somewhat normal in times of economic trouble. However, I meant the nationalist parties of the Celtic nations, and I should have made that clearer. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Lizzy
Date Posted: April 12 2010 at 15:13
Yup, know about the Scottish and Welsh nationalists' left wing policies, not as much as I would like to though. But these parties have been on a growing trend long before the crisis, as they have a fairly long history compared to the BNP and UKIP. The economic crisis throughout Europe has mainly broght the right wingers to power, this including the right wing nationalists. Of course there are also the exceptions: first one that springs to mind is Croatia - they elected a Social Democrat president. And a bit off topic - looks like almost 70% of the Hungarian Parliament will consist of right and far-right parties. ------------- Property of Queen Productions...
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 13:41
Absolutely right - it is one thing which the progressive left, or extreme left for that matter, have never understood, and that is the fact that a lot of working class people move to the political right during severe times. Maybe they should read their 20th century history books again! ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 14:52
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I will vote for the Labour Party.
I think the Tories will probably win the election, but they will not have an overall majority. For the kind of swing needed for an overall win, at this stage they would be expected to be getting 40% in the polls, but they are currently at 36%.
However, I don't think a hung parliament is necessarily a bad thing. There are no massive ideological differences between the main parties anymore (unlike the extreme polarisation we saw in the 1970s and 80s). Consensus politics could be an effective change for the better. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 15:21
I agree with this to some extent. There's a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth at the prospect of a hung parliament, but it always seems to come from "the party faithful" who naturally want their party to have a powerful majority. Right now a lot of people in this country honestly don't much care for any of 'em, so a little co-operation and bargaining between the main parties certainly wouldn't go amiss. Where I disagree with you is on your suggestion (and do correct me if I'm misreading your comments) that a lack of ideological difference between the major parties is a good thing in itself. Personally I think this slavish retreat to the middle ground (and obsession with the middle classes) has been a significant contributing factor to the overall levels of political disengagement in this country. Anyone who holds strong convictions which lie either side of the moderate "consensus" view is made to feel like a fanatic. Furthermore, middle-ground consensus results in tedious, petty squabbling over which taxes should be raised and by how many quarters of half a percent. Nobody's fighting for the big issues in this election; climate change, education, public transport, foreign policy, banking reform - those are the issues I want my politicians arguing about, not f**king paltry token bribes for married couples and the like. These are the kinds of issues which should be at the heart of politics in this country. [/rant] |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 16:36
Nah....well maybe but I think many countries may fall under that latter part. The only thing I found nutty about British politics, (and correct me if Im wrong) was that "debates" are pointless and mainly for show? Like as a test of the PM's oratory skills, and that any piece of legislature is already guaranteed since the PM's party is in the majority. I will admit, I learned about from a 75 year old conservative prof who is more of a francophile so I dont know Also this whole "snap" election thing and ready to go shadow cabinet was a little strange to me. But that was quite a tangent. Seriously, vote Scottish Independence Party! Or if I was British I'd probably just go Labour...... |
Posted By: PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 18:01
I get shoved in over the Greens (a bit more of a left and libertarian than them however) and they got a fair few things I agree with, but as you say they are a bit anti-science (particularly their statement to "end" nuclear power) if I vote, it'd probably be the LibDems,
according to that I have the voting power of 1.220 |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 13 2010 at 18:54
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I can explain the British "Left" quite easily without looking anything up (oh wait maybe because I'm a goddamn stinking pinko... " British Labour Party- Second International (from the 1890s) went reformist very quickly as did the 2I, under the influence of figures like Bernstein, and by the 1900s had resulted in Millerandism, where a Socialist Party member became part of a capitalist government. In 1914 the International fell apart as each section supported its own capitalist government in the war. Offspring include the Social Democratic Party Of Germany, founded by Karl Marx ironically, now a right wing party of course. The Socialist Party of France, the defunct Socialist Party of America, led famously by Eugene Debs, and many others besides Labour. in 1920s British sympathizers of the Russian Revolution formed the British Communist Party to fight for the principles of Socialism against the reformists Stalinist counter-revolution took over the Soviet Union and the Third International was purged of genuine socialists. The parties were then, after a brief so called "ultraleft" period, instructed to back up the Social Democrats in a policy known as the Popular Front, which prevented revolutions from taking place in Europe. in the 1930s real socialists abandoned any attempt to break the Communist Party from Stalin's grip and formed a British section of the Fourth International. In 1940, Trotsky, the FI's leader, was finally assassinated by Stalin after years of pursuit and after the murder of all his family members and comrades. Following WWII, a large section of the Fourth International decided that it should be liquidated into the Stalinist parties and third world movements. These were the Pabloites. Groups in Britain reflected Pabloism (groups like the Militant Tendency), the "State Capitalists" group led by Tony Cliff (eventually represented by Socialist Workers Party), which was quite similar, and the International Committee party of derisively named orthodox or ortho-Trotskyists whose party was the Socialist Labour League. The Socialist Labour League became the Workers Revolutionary Party in 1973, and was the largest left wing party in Britain. In 1985, it split three ways as the result of the decision by the leaders that Pabloism was correct and the party should be liquidated and become subordinated to the Stalinist parties and third world movements. This was largely because they were demoralized by the conservative turn in the 1980s. A small segment of the party, however, remained loyal to the Fourth International and was vindicated by the fall of the Soviet Union, which was declared impossible only a few years before by the demoralized leaders (Banda and Healy). They continued on as the Socialist Equaliy Party, and want to rebuild the party on firmer foundations based on internationalism. As for the Militant Tendency, it tried to rise to the top of Labour by entering into it, but its members were expelled in the 80s, ruining the stratagem, Ted Grant, it leader, died in the 2000s. The SWP is also opportunistic, teaming up with Labour politicians and promoting wide alliances. They have abandoned revolutionary change for supporting in practice Labour - they want to be a "junior partner." This is common, and there are equivalent organizations in the USA such as the International Socialist Organization, which is a middle class type protest organization. etc. ^off the top of my marvelous head and I'm an American AND most of this stuff happened way before I was born  |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 05:14
Yep, I'm in the same territory on Political Compass. When I had a bash at http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/ - this I unwittingly went for Green policies every time as well. I'll probably be voting Lib Dem 'cause a vote for the Greens would be utterly wasted where I am. It was almost a close run thing between Labour and Tories in 2005 here, so if there is a swing it's doubtful it'll be towards the Lib Dems, but I simply cannot bring myself to vote Labour. Of course, if we lived in a real democracy I wouldn't need to consider any of this, and simply vote for the party that best represented my views. Bah. Anyway, with that high voting power it looks like you've got a chance to make an actual difference with your vote. Which constituency are you in, if you don't mind my asking?
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 06:21
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Parties should acknowledge that voting for them is not a support of their policies but simply the choice of the lesser of evils. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 07:57
Well, you'll probably find that most of the electorate dont actually know what the parties policies are. Even after reading a manifesto, you're not likely to be any the wiser. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 08:15
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Well, as is well known to the electorate:
Labour helps the poor, Conservatives help the poor by helping the rich, and the LibDems....erm....
Anyway, in the end they help us and each other by helping themselves.
You should never change a ruling party because they've already stuffed their pockets.
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Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: April 14 2010 at 12:45
------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |