Masterpieces or not ?
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Topic: Masterpieces or not ?
Posted By: Titan
Subject: Masterpieces or not ?
Date Posted: May 23 2005 at 23:25
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We have a lot of "masterpieces": Dark Side Of The moon, Close To the edge, Foxtrot, Wish you were here etc. iam curious which "masterpieces" you dont consider as masterpiece for example me: Close to the edge: really great album without doubt, but too overrated, i heard a lot of better albums than this, Yes has better albums imo, (Relayer)
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Replies:
Posted By: KeyserSoze
Date Posted: May 23 2005 at 23:40
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Zdravim te For me it's Selling England By The Pound from Genesis. I like the most of the songs on it but I've never liked I Know What I Like and The Battle Of Epping Forest. I consider The Lamb... as their masterpiece though some people don't like the album. However, in the case of Yes' Close To The Edge I go with the masses and I think it's their best work and definitely a masterpiece. Tak zatim cus |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: May 23 2005 at 23:42
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For me Dark Side of the Moon: A lot of filler and it's terribly, I mean TERRIBLY overrated. ------------- 
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Posted By: strawberry
Date Posted: May 23 2005 at 23:45
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Well, truely it is a matter of oppinion. I know that some people don't think the "I get up Get Down" Part of "Close to the Edge" is that great, but I feel it is that build that makes the song work.
My Personal oppinion of what makes a masterpiece is that it just keeps my interest all the way through. There is always a nuance to the album everytime you play it.
My oppion on the most overrated would have to be "Wish you Hear" Not their best effort. ------------- taste is but a matter of oppinion. |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: May 23 2005 at 23:46
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Wish You Were Here by Floyd - Shine On You Crazy Diamond bores me to tears A Lot of KC, especially Larks' Tongues in Aspic - Blechh Otherwise most masterpieces are pretty damn good. and of course Mars Volta's Frances the Mute and DT's Images and Words ------------- 
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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 23 2005 at 23:57
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Yes, all the album's you mention are masterpieces. I would say most of the albums in the top 50 are masterpieces or near-masterpieces. I haven't heard any DT or Anglegaard, but of the one's I've heard, which is most of them, they all are powerful music that has stood the test of time. "Dark Side" is definately a masterpiece, and is not terribly overrated, whatever that means. That's like saying Niagra Falls is overrated. Well, okay if Niagra Falls doesn't turn you on, I'm sorry, but it's pretty darn impressive regardless of it's rating. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Philrod
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 00:14
Just the fact that you mentioned those albums makes them masterpieces  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Philrod/?chartstyle=Geldropdown-small"> 
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Posted By: Dazo
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 01:06
The Wall 
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Posted By: Yams
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 01:18
| Brain Salad Surgery |
Posted By: WillieThePimp
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 01:32
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Anekdoten - Where Solitude Remains so far...have yet to hear all their albums Yes - Fragile (even the filler tracks go by quickly) King Crimson - Red Aphrodites Child - 666 Opeth - My Arms Your Hearse/Damnation Rush - Moving Pictures/2112/Hemispheres ------------- You can't possibly hear the last movement of Beethoven's Seventh and go slow. ~Oscar Levant, explaining his way out of a speeding ticket |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 01:33
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Genesis - Lamb Lies Down... Jethro Tull - A Passion Play
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Posted By: WillieThePimp
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 01:34
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I think i've posted this list like 5 times or so now
------------- You can't possibly hear the last movement of Beethoven's Seventh and go slow. ~Oscar Levant, explaining his way out of a speeding ticket |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 01:36
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I wonder who in the world is claiming these as masterpieces of prog?
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WillieThePimp wrote:Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 02:40
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Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. I love Shine On You Crazy Diamond, one of my favourite epics ever, but I find the rest of the album not very interesting. I think Dark Side Of The Moon is much better. |
Posted By: Mategra
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 02:42
That's my opinion too. I rate Relayer (and also Fragile and Going For The One) higher than CTTE. |
Posted By: Matti
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 02:45
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Posted By: the dragon
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 03:01
| Don't call me iconoclast, but I think that The Dark Side of the Moon is good but really overrated. |
Posted By: MorgothSunshine
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 03:41
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Genesis - The lamb lies down... Jethro Tull - Passion play ELP - Brain salad surgery / Trilogy Caravan - In the land of grey and pink Area - Gli dei se ne vanno, gli arrabbiati restano (is rated as their best 4.67 stars!!! but it is the worst of an amazing band like Area!!!!) ...but i don't think Close to the edge or Dark side of the moon are overrated! ------------- For every truth even the contrary is true... 
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Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 03:45
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I must be an easy man... I had a look at the Top 50 in the home page and I found I liked ALL of them (though I of course would change the order of many of them). Maybe Dream Theater's Train of Thought shouldn't be there but anyway... I had to punch on the "Top 100" button to find The Mars Volta in the 72th position... How can people be claiming that to be a masterpiece of prog is well beyond my understanding...
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 04:24
All the ones you quote are over-rated masterpieces in my opinion! Classic albums for sure, but not masterpieces. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 04:45
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Masterpiece means different things to different people. With regard to some of the big prog 'masterpieces' that get discussed around here, my opinion would be as follows.. CTTE - Excellent album, but not a masterpiece My idea of masterpieces are: Moving Pictures - Rush Its all a matter of opinion. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Hiwatter
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 05:37
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ALL Pink Floyd albums are too much overrated! Close To The Edge is overrated! ELPs albums are overrated too! Jethro Tulls Thick As A Brick is overrated too! Rush is overrated group! etc. etc. I dont want to say with this, that i dont like these albums. I think all UK prog is little overrated, only because these groups were the first, who gained popularity. Many Italian albums are better in terms of musicianship, invention and emotion. Now im going to hide myself!
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Posted By: Stiefel
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 05:49
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ELP Trilogy Oldfield Tubolar Bells Pink Floyd The Wall Good albums, but in my opinion not masterpieces! |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 05:49
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The Wall.....the PF sound really changes on this record....the vocals lack emotion and harmony.....the music, outside of a few groovy bursts by Gilmour, is pretty flat....the sign of a dying band Camel - Mirage.....great record but not in my first tier.....the keys tend to dominate....MORE GUITAR.....MORE FLUTE.....MORE HARMONIES......AND STOP THOSE LAME VOCALS! Yes - Relayer.....groovy in spots.....too "noisy" Rush - 2112.....eight-grade pomp rock.....ditto Kansas and Styx King Crimson - In the Court of..../In the Wake of.... the first two LPs are inseperable clones.....the lulls in the albums often don't even register on the speakers....you've got to play it at top volume to hear some of the passages, so you get really soft/really loud, which can be a good thing, but not here.....love the next two LPs though Van der Graff - Pawn Hearts.....interesting, but far from essential Marillion and Dream Theater.....though I've tried, I just can't get into them.....I'm stuck in the 70s - not doubt - but what a groovy place to be stuck!
------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: Alfi
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 05:58
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I agree with the pimp: Aphrodite's Child - 666 is clearly a masterpeace in my opinion together with: Camel - Mirage King Crimson - Lark's Tongues Yes - Close To The Edge as best album of all time I would go for: Genesis - Selling England but as someone already said: I know what I Like and More Fool Me are really crappy songs - really unfortunate ! so however I will go for: Los Canarios - Ciclos I think that this is really the best prog albumn ever made |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 06:30
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'tis easy: All the albums I really love are masterpieces and the one's I dont-arent! Simple. |
Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 09:25
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Selling England by the Pound by Genesis is a masterpiece. ------------- CYMRU AM BYTH 
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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 11:59
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Yes, mostly, but "The Battle of Epping Forest" --- I don't know, it just never takes off for me and is too long. Maybe you have to be British or something to "get" it. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 12:17
Close to the Edge is NOT a masterpiece. There's no point in making an 18 minute epic if it's not even remotely interesting. Siberian Khatru IMO is a classic tune but the other two songs 
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Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 12:30
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Well, that's just it, it is very interesting, which was the point in making it. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 12:39
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not masterpiece at all: tales from topog lamb lies down farewell to kings ------------- [HEADPINS - LINE OF FIRE: THE RECORD HAVING THE MOST POWERFUL GUITAR SOUND IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF MUSIC!> |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 12:44
Wrong, Wrong, and ,right ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: floyd68
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 13:35
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hi everybody
I think most of the top 50 album can be considered as real masterpieces. However I have a problem to give away a masterpiece status right away esp. for new releases. Because if you listen to an album with out prejudice after some years, then you will disciver whether it has riped and aged with grace. From this point of view e.g. Porcupine Tree - Deadwing Dream Theater - Train of thought are good but overrated albums. give them a try again in 5 years. p.s. this does not necessarily mean that only old stuff is good stuff and sorry for my crappy english |
Posted By: ita_prog_fan
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 13:47
I Agree |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 13:48
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No!
Fragile is the best, by far! |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 13:50
I Disagree ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 13:55
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1.Fragile
2.CTTE/The yes album What's left is from very bad to average |
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 13:56
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I really love Marillion (most of their stuff, anyway) and I like Marbles, but
no way it's a masterpiece. Also, despite concerted efforts, I never could get into Anglagard. It just doesn't draw me in. I know lots of people think they're the cat's pyjamas. |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 14:01
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I used to think that way...but since have changed my mind. Relayer, though at times odd, is not just average. Going For the One is much better than average. TFTO is better than average. The first two Yes albums are actually very good. Put on the first album (the Rhino CD would be better) really listen to it. Most of it is awesome fiery complex rock. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 14:04
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6 true masterpieces (IMHO) noone has mentioned: Horslips - the Tain (Book of Invasions also, maybe) Camel - The Snow Goose (Moonmadness also, but it has been mentioned) Gerry Rafferty - Sleepwalking (definitely prog but not on this site!) Wishbone Ash - Argus (not prog) Strawbs - Grave New World Runrig - Proterra (not prog but not far off - more Celtic rock) Why masterpieces? Try improving on ANY of these. They hold your attention from start to finish and there are absolutely no fillers or duff tracks. Of the albums listed by others (of which I have nearly all) only Selling England is a masterpiece and then only if you omit More Fool Me! Oh, and maybe Foxtrot. But it's all a matter of opinion. Why not try some albums on this list and those of others you haven't heard? You might find something new. |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 14:11
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I've never considered any Genesis or Rush albums as masterpieces... CTTE, Trilogy and BSS are masterpieces... Blacksword never gets anything... much less BSS... ------------- THIS IS ELP 
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Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 14:11
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Grave New World is indeed a masterpiece. Nothing sounds quite like it.
I think Recovery is Runrig's masterpiece, but all their albums are good, but oops, not prog, I guess. I'm one of the very few people in this world that thinks Rain Dances is Camel's best. Hey, those are all good choices. Argus is great too. |
Posted By: MustShaveBeard
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 14:13
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King Crimson- Red, the song; It repeats about 3 different riffs the entire time (except the middle section which I like). You would think KC would have SOMETHING soloing over the riffs. Yes- The Yes Album; I just don't understand the big deal at all, except for the fact that Yes founded their sound on it CTTE (the song) is just a tad overrated given that it could be shortened since the SAME EXACT THING is played three times except for different bass lines in two of them. I don't understand the backlash against TFTO but none against this (I still do like the song). And Dark Side of the Moon just because it's not as good as everyone says it is ------------- Your life or your lupins!!! |
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 14:17
No Genesis albums masterpieces!!?? My god, repent oh blasephemous one! Before the long reach of the prog gods strikes you down where you sit. Listen to "Trespass" or "Seconds Out" , those are surprisingly good and one's that don't have so much Prog Archives political baggage attached to them. But do repent... ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 15:20
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Heptade, you are man of taste. I think Rain Dances is brilliant too, as are Nude and Mirage. IMHO there are just little bits you could tinker with here and there and it might turn out better - but not much. I hesitated to nominate Runrig's Recovery because it definitely isn't prog (Celtic Folk Rock), but it is utterly wonderful, as are Heartland, The Big Wheel and The Stamping Ground too. Sleepwalking is almost unheard of by many who associate Rafferty with City to City, Night Owl and other (admittedly classy) pop rock. This is later, more mature and complex and pure prog bliss, comparing well with anything by the giants of this site. And there's a Canadian band called Great Big Sea who made a live album called Road Rage which is a masterpiece of folk-pop-traditional. Heard of them? |
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 15:41
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Thanks, Tony F.
Great Big Sea are OK, although their stuff is getting much more pop and less folk of late, and therefore less interesting IMHO. The singer is cowriting songs with Russell Crowe... eek. I've seen them live, they're quite dynamic. Great Big Sea's heros the Oysterband are the best Celtic rock band, I think. Of the new ones, anyway. Steeleye Span are my favourite of the old ones. I once saw Runrig live...Toronto's entire Scottish community seemed to be there. I don't know much about Gerry Rafferty. He was in Stealer's Wheel, right? You are right about Camel...none of their albums are perfect, but every one has a few gems on it. I'm really fond of Richard Sinclair, so his two albums with Camel are the best to me. |
Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 15:52
| I don't know why people get so worked up about TfTO - YES. A change of direction too far methinks |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 16:05
Sorry... but a lot of Genesis bores me to tears... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 16:06
How do you know what I get behind closed doors? BSS goes over my head everytime, and I like to think I've given it a fair hearing. Still prefer Tarkus. I would regard that as a masterpiece if it wasn't for the throw away songs and that time wasting hymn. But, like I said it's all a matter of opinion. But, you do get the award for the days best joke: 'I've never considered any album by Genesis or Rush as masterpieces'
Crazy American humour!!
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 17:46
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I think that the most of the albums that mention if can be masterpieces, but thanks to that has been overrated during all the time, I I think some masterpieces are: BIRDS OF FIRE - MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA CONCERTO GROSSO 1 E 2 - NEW TROLLS MEDDLE - PINK FLOYD THE HUMAN EQUATION - AYREON Although not to can stop mentioning almbums as: RELAYER - YES MIRAGE - CAMEL HEMISPHERES - RUSH RED - KING CRIMSON
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:03
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I thought this thread was about masterpieces that members didn't like , not "name the albums that you think are masterpieces" Anyway, any album that is claimed to be a masterpiece is a bit of a pretentious claim IMO ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:05
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No! It is Relayer....Honest! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: spectral
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:09
Are you saying that the band are pretentious or the person who makes the claim is pretentious? Anyway, can any album truly be called a masterpiece? Is there actually an album which everyone considers flawless...I doubt it - in which case, there can never really be a masterpiece. ------------- "...misty halos made visible by the spectral illumination of moonshine." |
Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:09
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[/QUOTE] Sorry... but a lot of Genesis bores me to tears... [/QUOTE] I agree, their albums arn't consistent enough to be called masterpieces. Even Tony Banks & Phil Collins state as much if you read their interviews. I think people just get too over protective of them just because thay are their favourite band. Put Genesis's 70's album against Yes, ELP & Pink Floyd & it's impossible to compare! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:14
I would say that whoever claimed it.........pretentious and a bit precious too! I'm making this up as I go along you know, sounds alright tho ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: spectral
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:20
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"99% of cases"...I would say that is too high, Snow Dog. Using the Bovineswab statistical algorithm, I would put the value nearer to 98.49%. Any hoot, calling something a masterpiece is a subjective viewpoint and that is just plain wrong.
------------- "...misty halos made visible by the spectral illumination of moonshine." |
Posted By: alchemist
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:23
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Lark's Tongue in Aspic is starting to annoy me, so if u consider it a masterpiece, I disagree. And a Farewell to Kings, just don't conside it a masterpiece....  ------------- no great genius has existed without a touch of madness... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 18:53
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Quite agree.There is filler indeed.2 great tracks (Time and Us And Them) surrounded by mediocrity.I love WYWH and Animals(both true masterpeices) but DSOTM leaves me totally underwelmed. |
Posted By: atomicbomb
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 19:57
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foxtrot!!! it's a great album, of course, but for me it's a 4 stars. crime of the century.... tales from topographic oceans.... not to mention the two most absurd overrating cases in all history: frances the mute and DITC - the mars volta,.......whoever sayd that a reflex of the overall poor quality of newer releases is probably right.....good albums thought |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 19:59
DSOTM, CTTE, they do not deserve 5 stars IMO (DSOTM 3, CTTE 4 or 4,5) the other two I haven't heard yet. |
Posted By: BebieM
Date Posted: May 24 2005 at 22:00
why is a subjective statement about music plain wrong?  It's quite obvious that albums are only masterpieces for particular people and not for everyone. And that's what the thread's asking for... so what's wrong about that? |
Posted By: spectral
Date Posted: May 25 2005 at 04:33
I was just fooling around . beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all. There are various albums I consider masterpieces, but I try to use that word sparingly.------------- "...misty halos made visible by the spectral illumination of moonshine." |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 25 2005 at 07:13
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[QUOTE=Heptade]Grave New World is indeed a masterpiece. QUOTE]
A record I get out and play occasionally nowadays - indeed played New World on my radioshow last Thursday - but never a masterpiece to my ears (one reason evident: because it only comes to play with me on occasions not regularly or often). |
Posted By: lpd42
Date Posted: May 25 2005 at 12:58
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foxtrot is hardly a masterpiece, considering "The Lamb Lies Down On
Broadway," which can blow it away any day of the week!!!!!! ------------- Blarg! My cheese has bones! |
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: May 25 2005 at 13:29
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From the Oxford Dictionary:
masterpiece 1 an outstanding piece of artistry or workmanship 2 a person's best work Sounds pretty subjective to me...for instance, I consider Grave New World to be the Strawbs' best work. I don't consider Hybris to be an outstanding piece of artistry. Why? Because I'm me...was it nature or nurture? Did my parents warp my mind in some way that resulted in a lack of appreciation for Anglagard? Who knows. |
Posted By: BebieM
Date Posted: May 25 2005 at 19:29
Yes, and that's why you deserve to die |
Posted By: Dazo
Date Posted: May 25 2005 at 19:37
"Pretentious Moi" (anag)
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 26 2005 at 12:18
Was I being a pretentious dyxlexic? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: jojim
Date Posted: May 26 2005 at 17:11
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Can't you all see that taste is a feeling depending on time, personal
circumstances and knowlegde???? - I personally like "Close to the edge"
by YES, I like "Selling England ..." by GENESIS, but I dislike RUSH
"Moving pictures". I can tell you why. For me, really very personally,
the RUSH record has no development in the musical time line. So I don't
like it very much. I can listen to it, but I'm far away from loving it.
"Selling England ..." makes my hair standing up on my back. That
is a criteria of quality - for me. For others RUSH is doing the same
job. But not for me. - The question is: why? And no one can tell you
the reason for that. It is taste. Pure taste. It's a part of getting
socialized, having special backgrounds or being born in a certain year.
- There is no link between them. It just exists. The different taste. What is taste? Stop it. |
Posted By: Dragon Phoenix
Date Posted: May 26 2005 at 17:12
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Excellent post jojim. |
Posted By: DavidInsabella
Date Posted: May 26 2005 at 17:30
------------- Life seemed to him merely like a gallery of how to be. 
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