I know about gryphon.

 

Who else?

I meant musicly of course.

It is amazing that some of these bands made such complicated music with no in depth academic knowledge.

 

 

 

'course, they dropped out.......

Because that's just how I feel about it.  No harm was meant. 

VERY well put, Aleks. 

 

There is a huge gulf between being a great musician and being a great composer- the two disciplines are related but it does not follow that a great player will write great music.

 

While intuition, gut-feel and a damn good ear counts for a lot, understanding, music theory and composition cannot be dismissed.

 

oh, yeah, Beethoven's father was a music teacher - he got his early music education at home - he then studied under Neefe and then Haydn, who taught him the finer points of counter-point. Lugwig was far from uneducated.

Not once did any of us ever 'dismiss' music theory, nor did we say that it was foolish to learn music 'properly'. We simply think that it is not necessary for everyone in order to make great music. 

You are acting as if you need to defend your position here, when it hasn't even been attacked.

Let me rephrase:

Your points, as well as the ones Aleks and I have made, are ALL valid, and I guess I got the impression that you were somehow offended or put off by what we were saying. If I was wrong in that assumption, then whatever, but like I said, nobody is trying to 'debunk' the importance of music theory, here. But its importance is often times misrepresented and held much higher than it should be. It can be helpful for those who would truly benefit from it, but a lot of musicians (especially in this genre) do not seem to need it at all in order to make great music.

I hate Yngwie with a passion, by the way. 

Sorry, Dean. I'm in one of my moods, apparently. 

 

Everyone who learns an instrument picks up Music Theory - it's not a magic black art. For example the Circle of 5ths is something most players know by one means or another and they use it either consciously or subconsciously to develop harmony, chord progressions and modulation - it's an academic fact and an intuitive reality. How that knowledge comes about is immaterial to me, what interests me is how they use that knowledge - in the world of mainstream pop and rock it is rigidly adhered to (usually), in Prog, Jazz (and Classical) it is not - Prog musicians break the rules - how and why they break the rules is something that appeals to me as much as the broken rule itself.

 

I still don't buy it. Even if I am learning music theory subconsciously, I am not aware of it, and therefore do not recognize it in my composition or playing. So it's still an adventure for me every time I pick up an instrument. My point is still valid as a result. I could care less if I'm implementing theory without knowing it. What matters is how I choose to look at music, and I view it as an art; not a science. 

This is hardly accurate. Beethoven may not have gone to school, but he had fantastic tutors, including (eventually) one Franz Joseph Haydn and even (indirectly) one W.A. Mozart. So he got an education. A MUSIC education. Same with Mozart, who had the best teacher he could have since he was born (Leopold, his father).

Yes, talent is important, but without work and guidance, it remains only talent. It's not ART yet. Art is created when talent meets work, and work means training and practicing, and that means being educated. 

I don't think classical musicians yearn to improvise... they yearn for easier music to play so they can also relax... 

Hey... don't be a hairist here.. not accepted. 

Now go and dye that thing over your head...  (actually, I'm kinda brown...) 

Roger Waters was moments away from graduating architecture school, and all that really means is that he's qualified to build a house.  Almost.  What's that got to do with prog rock?  It doesn't take college to have an imagination. 

I play by ear!  I've never had a theory lesson, completely self-taught on guitar, bass, and various keyboards.  I didn't look for online courses or tutorials, just sort of plowed away at it for the past 10 years, figuring what works with what and what doesn't and what makes sense.  I'd beg to wager that many of the guitarists you idolize have similar circumstances and never met with a guitar teacher until their label introduced one if they found it necessary.  I'm no Steve Vai, but I can understand the different feelings that the different modes evoke.  I might not know them by name, but goddamn, at its core you're just playing a familiar scale with a different root chosen.  It's not rocket science, it's music, it's natural, it's existed forever.  I love learning new nuances just about every time I sit down with an instrument.  I wouldn't trade this experience for some cut-and-dry music lessons from people with their own music prejudices.

And yes, I'm sure a lot of people care, but really, -should- they?

 

However, that is not to say that "in theory" it is not impossible ... unlikely perhaps, but not impossible - pick any 'n' notes from 12 that sound good together and you'll probably get something that someone has discovered before in the 400 years since the formulation of Equal Temperament (which was the result of analysing relationships like 'C' and 'E' I mentioned before). In theory there are 330 possible combinations and permutations of 5 notes from 12, but we use a mere fraction of those possible Pentatonic scales (4 or 5 perhaps) and just transpose them to different keys because the ones that "work" have a strong harmonic relationship between each note.

 

 

 

/edit: the five black notes on a piano keyboard are not accidental ('scuse the pun ) they were put there deliberatily based upon music theory - using the intervals betwen them in a different key is not something that was derived from feel or playing by ear even if that is how people use them - same with the "dots" on a guitar fretboard - design, not accident or the need for redundant decoration.

I do know that Tom Scholz from Boston was a graduate from MIT in some engineering study. He started the band Boston while in school if I remember right....I think in this case his degree helped formulate the distinctive Boston hard rock sound that made that debut album so huge.

I think I'll take a listen....its been a "long time..." since I've played some Boston.

 

Lucky you.......I never saw them

 

Sat 07/05/2003

Detroit, MI

DTE Music Center

 

Marie Bernard from Et Cetera is graduate from Université de Montréal.

 

I heard somewhere that Frank Zappa was doctor in music but I can't find anything on this, so I believe it's an urban legend.

 

Ralphe Armstrong was (is?) a bass teacher in a University in Chicago, as Michel-Georges Brégent and Vincent Dionne in Montréal.

 

 

 

Among an endless list...