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my friend's setup

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Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
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Topic: my friend's setup
Posted By: hitting_singularity2
Subject: my friend's setup
Date Posted: November 04 2009 at 11:07
what do you think?





Replies:
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 04 2009 at 12:28
Looks expensive ... of course you can't judge the sound by a YouTube clip.

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Posted By: BadDog
Date Posted: November 05 2009 at 19:52
It looks very retro. But retro doesn't mean "sounds good". Technology has come a long way since then. Kind of like driving a Ford Model-T down the highway; everyone will look and point and say "how cool" and then they will pass you.

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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 03:14
beware of lots of flashing lights, silver knobs and speaker drivers...Wink
 
 
 


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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 05:50
^ very true. I loved this old hi-fi amp (which I had in the 90s):

 

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Posted By: hitting_singularity2
Date Posted: November 10 2009 at 08:48
looks retro, yes, but expensive retro, no?

Nobody has heard of any of the stuff there?

description of video:

Please remember, this is Youtube and as such the audio quality is severely downgraded. This does not represent the absolutely stunning sound quality on the actual system.

All components are 100% original and in PERFECT like new condition and took several years to source together.

Marantz 6200 fully automatic turntable
Marantz HD-880 200w Speakers with Vari-Q plugs
and The BEAST... *The 2325 Receiver rated at 125wpc

*An original wood case will be added when I find a new one.

All the best (reasonable) cables and interconnects are used including an Audio Power Industries Balanced AC line conditioner Model Ultra 116

Recorded in HD on a Lumix FZ35

The song playing is "Winter Solstice"
Yes, that's an original Splendor Solis album by The Tea Party



Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 10 2009 at 12:23
Sorry, but nothing beats ribbon-based speakers. Though, I don't think they are made anymore, unfortunately.

One really good thing came out of this; I just became a Tea Party fan.


Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 11 2009 at 00:19
This video further confirms what I believe to be true, and that is that a lot of  "audiophiles" know absolutely sh*t all about sound.
People spend all this money and time getting audio systems together, and then they have them backed up against a wall and having them in rooms with a poor shape and absolutely zero acoustic room treatment.
If someone actually genuinely cares about sound rather than buying a bunch of stuff they don't understand to boost their own ego, they'll do some proper research on how to actually obtain great sound.
Your friend obviously doesn't actually know much at all.

The speakers are backed up against the walls. This causes a hyped and unnatural low end. Ideally he would have them positioned at least 3 meters away from the wall and would have broadband bass traps behind them.
He certainly shouldn't have them positioned like they are in that room, leading into that hallway anyway.

FACT: Room acoustics are far more fundamental to achieving a good sound than speakers.
30 000 dollars worth of acoustic treatment paired with 5000 dollar speakers will absolutely destroy 200 000 dollar speakers in an untreated room.
If you have dips and nulls in your room due to unnecessary amounts of reflections, you've effectively wasted thousands of dollars on your audiophile level system, because a lot of the detail is being lost in the reflections and the bass response is going to be quite muddy.
You need to spend more money on room treatment than what your speakers and amplifier cost to get the best results, seriously.
He can argue this all he wants, but science proves how much frequencies you're losing/hearing much less of in a room with poor acoustics due to reflections.
There are many cases of people spending upwards of 100 000 US dollars on their system, only to be unsatisfied.
When asked by someone who actually understands audio and sound if they have room treatment, the answer is always "no".

Currently, I'm sitting here in a 3x3m room with studio monitors that are basically copies of mid range Mackie HR624s and I have no intention of upgrading these monitors, at least not on a serious level, until I am able to move my stuff to a bigger room and with serious room treatment.
I could hypothetically put Event Opal or Klein and Hummel 0300D monitors in here, which are pretty much as high end as you can get, but as long as my room acoustics remain poor, they are barely going to sound any better than what I currently have now.



Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 11 2009 at 01:29
Ermm

"Room treatment" ... I wonder whether recordings are engineered to require that sort of thing to sound great.

Nah ... I'll continue to listen to music with my trusty 80 EUR Logitech 5.1 system in a completely untreated room ... and *nobody* is going to make me feel bad about it. And you know what: It sounds just awesome. Big smile


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Posted By: hitting_singularity2
Date Posted: November 16 2009 at 10:54
Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:

Room acoustics are far more fundamental to achieving a good sound than speakers.
30 000 dollars worth of acoustic treatment paired with 5000 dollar speakers will absolutely destroy 200 000 dollar speakers in an untreated room.
If you have dips and nulls in your room due to unnecessary amounts of reflections, you've effectively wasted thousands of dollars on your audiophile level system, because a lot of the detail is being lost in the reflections and the bass response is going to be quite muddy.
You need to spend more money on room treatment than what your speakers and amplifier cost to get the best results, seriously.
He can argue this all he wants, but science proves how much frequencies you're losing/hearing much less of in a room with poor acoustics due to reflections.
There are many cases of people spending upwards of 100 000 US dollars on their system, only to be unsatisfied.
When asked by someone who actually understands audio and sound if they have room treatment, the answer is always "no".



thanks for this.  I will definitely look at room acoustics when I invest in my own system in a couple years.  Who would you talk to to get room treatment done? just any high end audio store?


Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 16 2009 at 11:35
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Ermm

"Room treatment" ... I wonder whether recordings are engineered to require that sort of thing to sound great.


Records are mixed and mastered in professional studios in which all room effect is cancelled (therotically, in practice, as much as physically and financially possible).
So in order for YOU to listen to the record as the artist intented ("good sound" and "bad sound" are simply irrelevent here), you must have the highest fidelity possible, i.e. :
- No room effects (room acoustics correction)
- Good positionning (walls, orientation, sweet spot...)
- Flat speakers and amplifier (amp-monitors are a great 2 in 1 solution in general)

in that order.

ALTHOUGH, if you use close-field monitors spaced 1m and correctly oriented, room acoustics might be less influencial (what I do at home). The principle is having a high direct sound/reflection ration...
The disadvantage is having a very small sweet spot (i.e. the only "correct position" is basically your chair).
If you want a large sweet spot, you MUST have great room acoustics.

Another thing. Having a flat amp + speaker system with the amp and the speaker built by different suppliers or not "made" to work with each other is quite difficult to achieve.
You are in fact never sure to have a flat response, unless you make advanced measurements in your room, take from an audio engineer...

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



Nah ... I'll continue to listen to music with my trusty 80 EUR Logitech 5.1 system in a completely untreated room ... and *nobody* is going to make me feel bad about it. And you know what: It sounds just awesome. Big smile


Good for you.


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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 16 2009 at 12:07
You need bigger speakers and the volume knob should go up to 11...Tongue

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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 16 2009 at 13:24
Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Ermm

"Room treatment" ... I wonder whether recordings are engineered to require that sort of thing to sound great.


Records are mixed and mastered in professional studios in which all room effect is cancelled (therotically, in practice, as much as physically and financially possible).
So in order for YOU to listen to the record as the artist intented ("good sound" and "bad sound" are simply irrelevent here), you must have the highest fidelity possible, i.e. :
- No room effects (room acoustics correction)
- Good positionning (walls, orientation, sweet spot...)
- Flat speakers and amplifier (amp-monitors are a great 2 in 1 solution in general)



I'm well aware of how studio technology works. I just know that albums aren't mixed to sound best under those ideal conditions ... no musician in their right mind would want their music to only sound good in the studio. Fortunately none of those things are too important anyway ... you can get great results with lo-fi systems, provided that you don't get ensnared by people who talk you into getting ultra expensive hi-fi gear.

Can expensive gear and room conditioning improve the listening experience? I think it can. Is it necessary in order to enjoy music? Not at all. If you have $50.000 to spare, go right ahead ... sky's the limit. Big smile


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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 16 2009 at 16:59
I'm happy with my $20 Sony stereophones, but that's just me. I would like better stuff, but I don't need it.


Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: November 17 2009 at 00:32
I would like to have your friend's disposable income.
Paypal would be nice.


Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 17 2009 at 06:49
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Ermm

"Room treatment" ... I wonder whether recordings are engineered to require that sort of thing to sound great.


Records are mixed and mastered in professional studios in which all room effect is cancelled (therotically, in practice, as much as physically and financially possible).
So in order for YOU to listen to the record as the artist intented ("good sound" and "bad sound" are simply irrelevent here), you must have the highest fidelity possible, i.e. :
- No room effects (room acoustics correction)
- Good positionning (walls, orientation, sweet spot...)
- Flat speakers and amplifier (amp-monitors are a great 2 in 1 solution in general)



I'm well aware of how studio technology works. I just know that albums aren't mixed to sound best under those ideal conditions ... no musician in their right mind would want their music to only sound good in the studio. Fortunately none of those things are too important anyway ... you can get great results with lo-fi systems, provided that you don't get ensnared by people who talk you into getting ultra expensive hi-fi gear.

Can expensive gear and room conditioning improve the listening experience? I think it can. Is it necessary in order to enjoy music? Not at all. If you have $50.000 to spare, go right ahead ... sky's the limit. Big smile


Of course "normal" listenning systems are taken into account, but mixing engineers can't do much... you can't have a mix/master that's suitable for all systems.
They just make sure the music doesn't sound awful on other systems.
On your Logitech speakers, you are sure to miss out on a big part of the music. If you simply want to hear the notes, get it in MIDI...
Plus, there are speakers between 20$ and 50.000$. For 300$, you can have an excellent pair of Mackie monitors! So if spending this amount to listen to XXXX$ worth of music is irrelevent, then something is wrong here..... SOUND MATTERS!



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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 17 2009 at 08:43
^ The Logitech speakers are surprisingly good ... I can easily compare their sound to my headphones (I have both Sennheiser and AKG) and to my (low-cost) hi-fi system. All in all I can say that I'm quite sure that I'm not "missing out" on parts of the music. Sure, a big system would sound more impressive, but I don't need it in front of my computer. I'm right at the sweet spot, the bass is quite direct and precise (the Logitech system is small, but has a really well designed subwoofer speaker and circuitry), there is zero background noise and no audible distortion whatsoever.

EDIT: and as far as mixing goes: I'm pretty sure that the priority is to make it sound well on typical hi-fi systems and through headphones ... musicians depend on their typical fans enjoying the listening experience.


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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 17 2009 at 09:37
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


EDIT: and as far as mixing goes: I'm pretty sure that the priority is to make it sound well on typical hi-fi systems and through headphones ... musicians depend on their typical fans enjoying the listening experience.


Hehe, why mix in a studio when you can mix in your toilet with 20$ speakers while taking a relaxing dump?
If that were true, mixing using professional gear would be almost pointless. Thank God mixing engineers still need to have the cleanest mix possible... Mixing is first performed on high end monitors, and only checked on "low end" (that actually cost around 300$) speakers.
Headphones are rarely considered because they are completely different (acoustically) from speakers (one signal for each ear...).
There is a world of difference between my headphones (Sennheiser HD205) and my monitors.
In general, if the mixing is fine using high end monitors, it will most probably yield the best possible result on a low end system. Headphones are a different issue.
It's not a matter of frequency reponse or noise (or else an EQ would suffice), it's a matter of precision and clarity.
Listenning to a great mix on crappy speakers is like mixing an 18yo single malt whisky with Coke... you lose all the detail.

The first time I listened to "Everyone Into Position" (Oceansize) on my monitors, I was astonished on how much detail I had missed using my previous setup (Wharfedale Pro 2.1).
Of course, not all recordings and mixes are worth being listenned to on high end monitors (I don't think Mastodon would yield a much different result for example LOL), but there are certain artists that are too keen on sound to played on radom systems.
Post rock, Extreme metal (when well recorded and mixed: Textures, Hacride...) are good examples of the utility of a good sound system.

Sorry if I'm boring people, I happen to like this subject...




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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 18 2009 at 01:54
Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


EDIT: and as far as mixing goes: I'm pretty sure that the priority is to make it sound well on typical hi-fi systems and through headphones ... musicians depend on their typical fans enjoying the listening experience.


Hehe, why mix in a studio when you can mix in your toilet with 20$ speakers while taking a relaxing dump?



Exactly ... why bother with a real discussion when you can just make ridiculous exaggerations.

Originally posted by mono mono wrote:


If that were true, mixing using professional gear would be almost pointless. Thank God mixing engineers still need to have the cleanest mix possible... Mixing is first performed on high end monitors, and only checked on "low end" (that actually cost around 300$) speakers.


I never said that mixing should be done on cheap speakers. Maybe you should read my posts more carefully before responding.

Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

Headphones are rarely considered because they are completely different (acoustically) from speakers (one signal for each ear...).


I hope you won't be telling me though that there are no headphones in studios ...

Personally I use headphones for pretty much everything ... but I never said that I was a professional audio engineer. It's just a hobby for me, and I have to make some compromises.

Originally posted by mono mono wrote:


There is a world of difference between my headphones (Sennheiser HD205) and my monitors.
In general, if the mixing is fine using high end monitors, it will most probably yield the best possible result on a low end system. Headphones are a different issue.


I disagree. Mixes sounding perfect on high end monitors can be catastrophic on low end systems ... you always have to check. That's why you'll even find cheap "boom boxes" at mastering studios.

Originally posted by mono mono wrote:


It's not a matter of frequency reponse or noise (or else an EQ would suffice), it's a matter of precision and clarity.
Listenning to a great mix on crappy speakers is like mixing an 18yo single malt whisky with Coke... you lose all the detail.


"all the detail"? I don't think so. "some detail"? Of course. And if you had an even better system than the one you have now, maybe you'd hear even more details. Would that render your current system worthless?

I like my current system. I know that there are better ones, but if you tell me that I'm not allowed to like my system then that's offensive.

Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

The first time I listened to "Everyone Into Position" (Oceansize) on my monitors, I was astonished on how much detail I had missed using my previous setup (Wharfedale Pro 2.1).
Of course, not all recordings and mixes are worth being listenned to on high end monitors (I don't think Mastodon would yield a much different result for example LOL), but there are certain artists that are too keen on sound to played on radom systems.
Post rock, Extreme metal (when well recorded and mixed: Textures, Hacride...) are good examples of the utility of a good sound system.

Sorry if I'm boring people, I happen to like this subject...



With all due respect: You never listened to my Logitech speakers. I know that people judge them based on the price tag, and on the fact that they've never heard of Logitech in relation to high audio quality. What I'm saying is that they simply sound great, even compared to a standard low-cost hi-fi system (like my Harman Kardon system with Elac speakers). Is that so hard to understand for you? It's not an attack on the much more pricey system that you may be using ... I'm not saying that my cheap system sounds as good.

BTW: One indication that my system is good is that I hear the differences that you describe, between good recordings and bad recordings. Hacride and Oceansize sound really impressive on the Logitech system compared to small headphones for example, while the difference is less pronounced for many other recordings. Make of that what you will ... 


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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 07:17
Cool, a hot debate!

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
Exactly ... why bother with a real discussion when you can just make ridiculous exaggerations.


Exaggeration, yes. Ridiculous, no. Is that forbidden here? If someone didn't understand this was an exaggeration, I deeply appologize.

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
I hope you won't be telling me though that there are no headphones in studios ...

Personally I use headphones for pretty much everything ... but I never said that I was a professional audio engineer. It's just a hobby for me, and I have to make some compromises.


It's not a personnal matter... the debate is whether high end systems are worth having.
I am not judging you, I'm judging low end systems.
I never said headphones were not used in studios... they're simply not recommended for mixing.


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
I disagree. Mixes sounding perfect on high end monitors can be catastrophic on low end systems ... you always have to check. That's why you'll even find cheap "boom boxes" at mastering studios.

You always have to check, I agree.

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
"all the detail"? I don't think so. "some detail"? Of course. And if you had an even better system than the one you have now, maybe you'd hear even more details. Would that render your current system worthless?

I like my current system. I know that there are better ones, but if you tell me that I'm not allowed to like my system then that's offensive.


Some detail if you will (depending on what's detail and what's not...).
I am not saying you need to have the studio's monitoring system or else your system is worthless. I am simply saying that for a small amount of money, you can get quality that is quite close to professional systems. After that, you would need to spend a lot to gain little...
And I'm not telling you what to do here, I'm just giving my opinion...


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
With all due respect: You never listened to my Logitech speakers. I know that people judge them based on the price tag, and on the fact that they've never heard of Logitech in relation to high audio quality. What I'm saying is that they simply sound great, even compared to a standard low-cost hi-fi system (like my Harman Kardon system with Elac speakers). Is that so hard to understand for you? It's not an attack on the much more pricey system that you may be using ... I'm not saying that my cheap system sounds as good.


...with all due respect, I have! (at least a 2.1 Logitech in the same price range). And I've known Logitech for some time now, even if I never bought one. These are very popular speakers.
I understand that you are satisfied  with your system, and I'm not arguing that! I'm not trying to convince you to throw them away.
My system is 2 x Mackie MR5. These cost 290Euros (the pair at thomann). I find that to be quite cheap for the quality it yields, just like you find your system great for its price range.

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
BTW: One indication that my system is good is that I hear the differences that you describe, between good recordings and bad recordings. Hacride and Oceansize sound really impressive on the Logitech system compared to small headphones for example, while the difference is less pronounced for many other recordings. Make of that what you will ... 


I never said your system was bad.
I said that I was astonished when I listened to Oceansize/Hacride on good monitors, compared to what I had on my previous 2.1 (which I highly recommend by the way: Wharfedale Pro 2.1).

Sorry if I sounded offensive, that is not my purpose at all...
Good day!


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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 08:18
Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

...with all due respect, I have! (at least a 2.1 Logitech in the same price range). And I've known Logitech for some time now, even if I never bought one. These are very popular speakers.
I understand that you are satisfied  with your system, and I'm not arguing that! I'm not trying to convince you to throw them away.
My system is 2 x Mackie MR5. These cost 290Euros (the pair at thomann). I find that to be quite cheap for the quality it yields, just like you find your system great for its price range.


How would you describe the difference between the Logitechs and the Mackies? For example on a range of 1 to 10 where 1 is the most horrible, and 10 is the most perfect system ever - where would you place the two?


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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 10:40
Hehe, huge coincidence (or not...) only today, Mackie MR5 price dropped to 139euros (per unit) at Thomann.
278 the pair!

On performance, I'd say (roughly)
Logitech 2.1 : 5.5-6
Mackies : 7.5

Not talking about power here of course, only sound precision, clarity and fidelity
The thing is, the closer you get to "10", the more money you have to spend to have better results.
My posts are turning into Mackie commercials...


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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 14:20
^ I largely agree with that - I would put my Logitech X-530 speakers at about 6/10, and I simply think they're underrated by people who haven't heard them - my guess is that most would put them at about 2-3/10.

Well, currently my budget for musical gear is kind of maxed out (purchased Guitar Rig 4 Pro and the ESI Maya 44e sound card a few weeks ago) ... but next year a pair of nice studio monitors will certainly be possible.Big smile


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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 22 2009 at 01:40
Might as well chip in my 2 cents here.
Some good points raised on both sides.
Some points that are blatantly incorrect however, but I'll get to that soon.

First off, there is no such thing as a truly flat speaker. The day someone designs one, they will be a millionaire as a result most likely. Even if such a thing could exist in this present day, it would be prohibitively expensive to put that much R&D money into a speaker that is 100 per cent totally flat, and it would also be pretty much inaccessible to consumers that aren't absolutely rolling in money.
How flat and accurate a speaker system is depends on many variables, such as headroom (which is necessary to produce accurate transients) and indeed how many speakers are in the actual system.
A 2 way speaker near field studio monitor cannot be totally flat, purely as a function of it's design, since they are pretty much limited to a 10 inch low frequency driver. A problem with some monitors made in the 2 way design is the crossover point, which results in some degree of dip in the mids a lot of the time. Some are worse than others in this regard, some are more flat and accurate.
Really, to get a response from one speaker system that is pretty much close to flat, you need 4 way system, with a tweeter, a mid range driver, a mid range woofer and a woofer, and even then, an 18 to 21 inch sub woofer can be used to get an even flatter low end perception.

That said, it's not really a bad thing a totally flat speaker exists, as we have been able to hear from the great results produced from the current available technology.

About room acoustics it's in fact incorrect that a room needs to be totally free of reflections.
You'll find in pro studios, not only absorber panels, at the back of the room there are typically diffuser panels in order to keep the room sounding somewhat alive, since it's more natural anyway.

For mixing, typically a set of great near fields is all that's needed, and in fact is even preferable since nearfields translate better to traditional consumer speakers than main monitors anyways.
For this obvious reason, this means that mix engineers don't have to spend as much on their monitoring as mastering engineers, because near fields are cheaper than main monitors.
It's true many mix engineers often reference with cheap audio systems.

Chris Lord-Alge, the man behind many great mixes like the latest Paramore record, and some of the My Chemical Romance stuff if I'm not mistaken, has been known to reference his mixes using a boombox in mono.
Boomboxes typically have a lot of mid range, but not much in the way of good bass response and poor treble response/detail.
I have a set of cheap computer speakers (2.0 system) at my desk which have that boombox-ish sound quality to them (mostly lots of mids, a pretty poor high end and weak low end).
I've had these for years, well before I started studying audio engineering and I know their sound inside out backwards, so they serve as great reference speakers.

One thing about mixing for higher end systems is, it actually doesn't make things sound atrocious on smaller, cheaper systems.
There is one guy on the Andy Sneap forum who tends to pretty much only mix through his high end Event Opal monitors and has gotten sick of referencing with cheap speakers.
These Opals have a 10 inch driver for the woofer, so you can imagine they have a good, solid bass response and can let you hear a lot of detail in the lower end.
His mixes still come out sounding great on any kind of speaker. 
Sure they might sound a bit thinner than normal mixes on cheaper speakers, but it still sounds good, even on my crappy speakers. Sure, as I said, the sound was a bit thin in the low end, but it was quite obvious that it was a well done done mix with great clarity.
A good mix is a good mix, period.
What it means for his mixes, is that when it gets played through a full range system, like at a club for example, it will sound totally huge and more defined in comparison to mixes that were constantly referenced with cheaper speakers and made to translate to a wider variety of speakers.

As for mastering speakers, well, they are extremely expensive and the closest thing you can get to flat, as I've said.
Personally, I have no plans to get into mastering at all, hence I see no need to buy speakers of that type.
By the time a mix gets send to a mastering engineer anyway, it's already done, so for the mastering engineer it's all about being able to hear all the details so they can do their job

Originally posted by hitting_singularity2 hitting_singularity2 wrote:

 

thanks for this.  I will definitely look at room acoustics when I invest in my own system in a couple years.  Who would you talk to to get room treatment done? just any high end audio store?

You can make room treatment yourself if you really wanted to.
I don't mean the actual material, you need to buy that, but the actual bass traps and their construction can just be made out of wood really. Personally, me being a cheap b*****d and wanting to learn how to do that stuff on my own, that's what I would do.
If that's not your thing, Realtraps makes prefabricated bass traps, diffusers and absorber panels. It costs a bit more obviously, but it takes the guess work out things and of course the physical work out of it.
Be prepared to spend at upwards of 2000 dollars I'd say or probably a lot more, but for each dollar you put into room treatment, you're getting far more out of it then if you went and spent the same on new speakers, seriously.


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 22 2009 at 02:27
Mixing and mastering is kind of off-topic for this thread ... nevertheless I'll say this much:

Today the whole process of mixing and mastering is about to change completely. This week I picked up a magazine special issue about mastering - it seemed mostly like an advertising platform for various software tools and plugins to me, but it contained some useful advice too. The point is that the traditional separation of mixing and mastering will eventually disappear ... and although the magazine issue did not say that explicitly, there were several hints or passages that contained that message "between the lines". Just one example:

Multi-band compression. It can be a useful tool in mastering if for example the mix contains too much energy in the lower frequencies. However, a much better solution in that situation would be to go back to the mixing stage and fix the problem there, which would be much easier in most cases (by applying compression to specific instruments like bass and bass drum, applying high-pass eq filters to other instruments etc.). Back in the days of analog recording this would simply have been too expensive - I guess it was done if the budget allowed or if the mix was so bad that no mastering tool could fix it, but usually the mastering guy had to make do with the stereo mix he got.

Today I can record something in Ableton Live (or any other modern DAW), mix it, master it and export it to WAV ... and if at any point I find that I need to go back to the mixing stage, it's only a few clicks away. There's no need anymore to at some point finalize a mix to a stereo track and to try to solve any problem with individual instruments later by applying sophisticated (and error-prone, thereby making it a job for experienced specialists) processing to the stereo sum that will only affect one instrument.

Another issue I have is using (near) flat monitor speakers for everything, including the mastering. I know the motivation and argumentation behind it and it all makes sense ... but IMO it also unnecessarily complicates the whole process. Why not simply do the mastering on a very good hi-fi system? This is the target platform where it is supposed to sound best. Especially if you are a part-time "hobbyist" audio engineer - why should you spent tons of money on achieving a neutral sound?

Mastering (and mixing for that matter) always works on a reference basis. You choose a track that sounds great and then try to improve the mix you're working on until it matches the reference track. For the genres we're dealing with here (prog rock/metal) you can by all means do that on a good hi-fi system, too.


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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 02:34
You cannot master effectively unless you can hear all the details.
As I've said, and as you know, in the mixing phase, being able to hear all the details isn't always so necessary since the bulk of the sound being able to translate to other systems happens in the mix anyway.
The best mastering jobs are usually the ones where the mastering engineer is fortunate enough to receive an extremely high quality mix.
In this scenario, this means they have to do less work and effectively making it more transparent
Mastering is about making extremely subtle changes, maybe every few minutes, as opposed to mixing where you'll be constantly tweaking if you so desire.
Being able to hear whether that half decibel of EQ change or whatever fine detail it is, is very important to the ME for them to be able do their job.
This is the way of the mastering engineer industry, that's how it's done. You can argue that point all you want, but at the end of the day virtually mastering engineer will be at odds with you and would just laugh at being told they could effectively do their job on a hi fi system too.
Things will actually end up translating worse most likely, because it's so easy to damage a mix in the mastering phase if you don't know what you're doing and can't hear what you need to hear.
Case in point, albums that are smashed beyond belief for the sake of loudness. Going for a less quality result is just making it sound worse even on average listening systems, so you're point that we can go for a lower quality approach (in this case, using hi fi speakers) just isn't going to work.

There needs to be standards. If one wants a mastering job, they pay for it, and they take their mix to someone who will do it correctly.
I don't like this idea you can get some cheap plug ins, and a cheap hi fi system in your tiny 2 by 2 meter bedroom and call yourself a mastering engineer.
People have spent years accumulating top notch gear and fine tuning their talents and skills and deserve to be able to get frequent work.
Once people start mastering on cheap hi fi systems and cracked plug ins, and calling themselves pros because they can tweak a knob on a limiter plug in, it starts undercutting the people who actually deserve to be making a living.

And from many of the experiences I've read about/engineers I've spoke to, your comment on it "complicating the process" is pretty much incorrect.
Basically everyone that has gotten room treatment and better monitors comment on how they can just work more efficiently and have a better workflow because they are no longer having to constantly stop and having to reference mixes with other mixes, because they can now actually hear everything properly.
It's also less fatiguing to work in a room that's been well treated.
Less ear fatigue = less need for breaks to let ears recover.
Which  means you can mix for more extended sessions and get more things done.
As someone who has to put up with relatively fatiguing studio monitors, I certainly can't wait to get room treatment done so I don't have to take as many breaks.
We can keep arguing around and around, but I can just keep telling you the realities of the industry and you can tell me about your idealistic notions of how you think it should be.

As far as I can see , reality is here to stayWink


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 05:11
^ I don't believe for a second that room treatment and superior monitor speakers remove the necessity for using points of reference. Apart from that, pretty much everything in your post is open to opinion ... I respect yours, but in my opinion you got carried away a bit by the forums. I don't think that I'm in a position to tell you that you're wrong, given that I'm just a hobbyist ... I just find the notion of a "perfect room" that completely removes listening fatigue and lets you grasp every detail immediately a tad unrealistic. ;-)

And about mastering on a hi-fi: I think I said that no sane audio engineer would do that - but a hobbyist might get some pretty decent results with it for special mastering tasks.


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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 05:31
The system shown is not what i call a good system.

Petrovsk Mizinski-->you're wrong: a treated acoustic with a bad system will reveal how bad is teh system, plus how do you know if your acoustic treatment works if your system's bad?

Better a good system in a non-treated room than a bad system in a well treated room.


Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 07:50
oliverstoned.
A simple measurement with a good flat mic on the sweet spot, and you have your room frequency response (approx. of course).
Takes 1min if you can have an omnidirectional mic, and know your speaker's frequency response. If you don't know your system's frequency response, you can measure it the same way.
- Install the microphone on your seat at your head height (or ~50cm from the speakers for the speakers).
- Play a swept sine (20Hz-20kHz, a few seconds long) on your speakers. Most audio editors can generate a swept sine.
- The recorded sound should be quite representative of your room frequency response.

This should give a broad idea of what your room does to your sound.
For a more precise one, the set becomes very expensive ("flat" speakers, precision omni mic).

Also an easy way is simply to play songs you know very well in that room and listen...

Having measured a few mixing studios frequency responses, I can tell you very few are "perfect". But they never have big bumps and holes, which makes it quite easy for the engineer to get familiar with the studio.


Petrov Mizinski, I have to say I agree, even if sometimes you tend to stray from the subject...

The thing about Hi-fi systems... THEY ALL SOUND VERY DIFFERENT, so if you base yourself on one, even ten, you're much less sure to obtain a good result on another Hi-fi system than someone using monitors.
So being as universal as possible is using the flattest and most precise monitors you can get.

However, checking your mix on a standard lo-fi system is still important for already exposed reasons, and especially on "typically biased" systems as boomboxes...

Oliverstoned, concerning the rooms, I can easily show you the contrary in Paris (if you're in Paris).
The two options are not comparable.
Still, you are sure to have a crappy sound using a crappy system, but not with a non treated room. You can get lucky!


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https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 13:00
Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

The thing about Hi-fi systems... THEY ALL SOUND VERY DIFFERENT, so if you base yourself on one, even ten, you're much less sure to obtain a good result on another Hi-fi system than someone using monitors.
So being as universal as possible is using the flattest and most precise monitors you can get.


If you are always using a reference track it should not make that much of a difference ... one good hi-fi system should do. Obviously it makes no sense to use a crappy system, since it will not have the necessary clarity. But if it's a good one (but please not an audiophile tube amp which is adding some compression and distortion to the mix) I can't see why it shouldn't work. It will not have a very linear frequency response, but - like I said - if you're using a reference track you should be fine. And you *always* have to use a reference track, no matter how well treated the room or how linear the monitors.

BTW: For all you guys out there who have the money and resources go move to a flat with one additional room that you can then "treat" and put 10K's worth of studio equipment in there ... kudos, go right ahead. I, as a hobbyist, will simply use my good headphones in combination with my reasonably good, but in studio terms crappy Logitech system - or maybe next year some nice studio monitors in the range of EUR 200-400, which will still be crappy in studio terms. And I shall endeavor to produce nice mixes ... provided that I get a new computer first, so I'll be rid of those damn latency issues.AngryWink


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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 24 2009 at 01:23
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I don't believe for a second that room treatment and superior monitor speakers remove the necessity for using points of reference. Apart from that, pretty much everything in your post is open to opinion ... I respect yours, but in my opinion you got carried away a bit by the forums. I don't think that I'm in a position to tell you that you're wrong, given that I'm just a hobbyist ... I just find the notion of a "perfect room" that completely removes listening fatigue and lets you grasp every detail immediately a tad unrealistic. ;-)

And about mastering on a hi-fi: I think I said that no sane audio engineer would do that - but a hobbyist might get some pretty decent results with it for special mastering tasks.


At no point do I say it removes the necessity for points of reference, read again. For some engineers it does, but I also do know that some of my favorite engineers, such as David Bendeth and Chris Lord Alge frequently use other sources as references (in the former's case, he regularly uses his car, in the latter's case, a boombox in mono is typically used). They also uses other albums as reference points too.
I do recall Bendeth saying for Paramore's Riot! album ( a big favorite of mine, musically and production wise) he regularly used other albums as a reference for it's sound.

However in the case of some engineers, they don't use references at all and rely on nothing but their ears.
Andy Sneap, another favorite engineer of mine, who as we know is quite well versed in the 3 major audio engineering fields (tracking engineering, mix engineering and mastering engineering), doesn't use references albums at all. He may, however use several sets of speakers as references, but he doesn't use other albums as references. If he likes a sound at a particular moment, that's what he uses.
And we can't argue he gets great results either.
Some engineers, in the case of a fairly well known mix and tracking engineer from my home town, pretty much uses nothing but his single set of Event Opals, and honestly his mixes sounded great on my fairly cheap hi fi system at home.
At the end of the day, is' an artistic decision and there are many approaches.
As long as it sounds good, it doesn't truly matter how you get there, I mean hell, there is nothing stopping me from mixing on my cheap computer speakers and getting good results but as I've said in the past, there should be certain standards, and there are certain tools and environments which will lead to getting good results more easily and more quickly.
And certainly, considering how poor the high end and low end detail is on my comp speakers, it's simply just easier to mix on my monitors because I can actually hear what's happening.
Pros just take this a step further with more high end monitoring and room treatment, they can hear even more.

And mind you, my point on ear fatigue is based on the fact one might be using fatiguing speakers in the first place. If you aren't, it doesn't matter.
In the case of some Mackie's, such as the HR824, the high end is quite excessive as noted by many users and many people have noted once they got their room treatment, a lot of those high end problems went away.
Yes, it's true there is only so much room treatment can do, and in 2009 we have yet to achieve total flat, pure sound from any speakers and ultimately the environment where things are being mixed/mastered, but hey, it's not like most people can ear with total accuracy from 20Hz to 20KHz anyway (at least, not those that live in noisy, industrialized nations like myself in Australia or you, in Germany, or mono, in France), so ultimately maybe it doesn't matter as long as the engineer likes what he hears.
I know my Behringers are quite hyped in the high end.

For a while I didn't realize what was causing my ears to tire out so easily, so I adjusted the EQ on the back of them to reduce the high end by 4 decibels.
Not only did this make it easier to mix for longer sessions (although to be fair, they are still a little bit fatiguing and room compensation switches can't totally solve the problem), but since I was no longer hearing such a ridiculous amount of high end, my mixes started coming out clearer and a little bit closer to that professional clarity.
Even though yes, I was using reference albums with the older monitor settings I had, having adjusted the EQ and being able to hear the high end more accurately has quite literally cut about 15 per cent of the time off my time to be able to mix things to a good level.
Honestly, I was the same as you, I thought it had to be voodoo, but it turns out having a more accurate mixing environment made it easier for me.
I might be taking it to the next step in a few months with some room treatment.
I currently mix in a small room, 2 by 2 meters, which is hardly ideal for obvious reason. I don't plan to go crazy and spend 10s of thousands of dollars on treatment, just enough to make things a little bit clearer, so maybe a few hundred dollars worth of treatment, since after all I don't need the holy grail of accuracy yet, since I don't exactly mix pro level stuff.


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



BTW: For all you guys out there who have the money and resources go move to a flat with one additional room that you can then "treat" and put 10K's worth of studio equipment in there ... kudos, go right ahead. I, as a hobbyist, will simply use my good headphones in combination with my reasonably good, but in studio terms crappy Logitech system - or maybe next year some nice studio monitors in the range of EUR 200-400, which will still be crappy in studio terms. And I shall endeavor to produce nice mixes ... provided that I get a new computer first, so I'll be rid of those damn latency issues.AngryWink


Veering more off topic now, but interestingly, I never really got any problems with my POD in regards to latency.
I figure since my sound is being externally monitored with no need to have plugs in on my track, I don't get that extra latency you can get when you have VST's on the track.
Plus USB 2.0 is pretty fast anyway, faster than the USB 1.1 you had with your Guitarport.
I'm thinking that if you buy a DI box with a splitter, you can perhaps pick up a cheap POD 2.0 , run that into a set of speakers, have half your signal route to there to be able to hear what you're playing, and then, because you have that set up happening, you wont have to use any latency inducing plug ins (pretty much all guitar amp sim plug ins cause latency to some extent) on the track, and you can just apply the VST after you have laid the DI tracks downSmile



Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 24 2009 at 01:43
^ I think you're confusing the word "reference" here. What I meant was that during mixing/mastering you constantly compare the mix you're working on to a mix that you know to be great. For example if you were to try to master one of your own tracks, you would select a Paramore track, or a Nevermore track mixed by Andy Sneap ... whatever you like, and use that as a fixed point of reference for what you're trying to achieve. Amps and cabinets can't be references ... it doesn't matter what you play a reference track with. As long as it's a good system with sufficient clarity, you can use it for mixing/mastering. Needless to say that having a linear frequency response is a good thing, especially when you're a professional and you do lots of jobs, not only rock/metal.

BTW: I think my solution for the latency problem will be to record dry. The soundcard has an option for routing the input signal to the output directly with zero latency, and I don't mind playing hearing only the dry signal. But you're right, I could also use a splitter - or my trusty old Vox Tonelab SE, but in that case I would also need an external mixer console (a small one would do, but still).


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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 24 2009 at 02:53
Do you have the Asio2 driver? (if you're running Windows)


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https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 24 2009 at 04:21
^ I have the proper ASIO drivers and I also tried Asio4All, but I can't get latency below 10ms no matter what I do. I think the problem is related to the chipset of the mainboard, which is why I'll definitely get a new computer in a couple of months. I'm just delaying the purchase past Christmas season ... 

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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 06:16
Originally posted by mono mono wrote:

oliverstoned.A simple measurement with a good flat mic on the sweet spot, and you have your room frequency response (approx. of course). Takes 1min if you can have an omnidirectional mic, and know your speaker's frequency response. If you don't know your system's frequency response, you can measure it the same way.- Install the microphone on your seat at your head height (or ~50cm from the speakers for the speakers).- Play a swept sine (20Hz-20kHz, a few seconds long) on your speakers. Most audio editors can generate a swept sine.- The recorded sound should be quite representative of your room frequency response.This should give a broad idea of what your room does to your sound. For a more precise one, the set becomes very expensive ("flat" speakers, precision omni mic).Also an easy way is simply to play songs you know very well in that room and listen...Having measured a few mixing studios frequency responses, I can tell you very few are "perfect". But they never have big bumps and holes, which makes it quite easy for the engineer to get familiar with the studio. Petrov Mizinski, I have to say I agree, even if sometimes you tend to stray from the subject...The thing about Hi-fi systems... THEY ALL SOUND VERY DIFFERENT, so if you base yourself on one, even ten, you're much less sure to obtain a good result on another Hi-fi system than someone using monitors.So being as universal as possible is using the flattest and most precise monitors you can get.However, checking your mix on a standard lo-fi system is still important for already exposed reasons, and especially on "typically biased" systems as boomboxes...Oliverstoned, concerning the rooms, I can easily show you the contrary in Paris (if you're in Paris).The two options are not comparable.Still, you are sure to have a crappy sound using a crappy system, but not with a non treated room. You can get lucky!


i don't deny the importance of room acoustic. But it's useless to invest a lot in room acoustic with a mediocre system.
My system is in a small room which fortunatly stands a 38 cm subwoofer and the room sounds good (no audible resonances). I prefer to invest in cables, power flitering, vibration control...and after room's acoustic.

just curious, what's your system?



Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 07:06
A small room tends to be just about the worst place you can put a sub woofer of that size in, seriously.
Even though you might not think you have a bad room, science says otherwise that small rooms tend to be audio unfriendly. Small, perfectly square rooms with low ceilings are big offenders in particular.
I'm lucky to not have a particular low ceiling (by low, I mean sorta, just above 2 meters like in some basements), but this room is pretty square, ouch. The best I've been able to do is to set up my studio monitors in a good listening position and to make sure my curtain over my window is always down while mixing.
6.5 inch woofers are already stretching a small room's capacity (and this is from my own personal experience of sitting here mixing through speakers of that size) for low end reproduction, let alone 15 inches.
Even just putting basstraps behind the woofers would make a good difference, if you weren't keen on investing a lot more into room treatment.
As for cables, spending money on them is good to a certain point, but then anymore yields no real improvement, whereas you can keep putting as much bass trapping in a room as you want and it can only improve each time.
There is only so much that can be done in a build quality of a cable and the materials put into it before you have to learn to read past the advertising bullsh*t hyping up their cables that cost 5 times more than the competition that don't sound any better.
If price always equated to quality, guitarists would be using 2000 dollar guitar cables if they could afford it, but the fact is, the difference between that and an 80 dollar cable (which is generally already pretty high end for a guitar cable, with 20 dollars or so being a relatively cheap, moderate quality one) is nothing. It's just marketing and brand names trying to rape your wallet.


Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: November 26 2009 at 09:56
Price doesn't means nothing, there are good and bad things at every prices; there are musical 1000€ system sthat work better than others 100 000€ systems. Please forget scientific theories. I know what i'm talking about, my system works. What's your system please?


Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 07:59
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Please forget scientific theories


No thank you.

I personnally have 2 x Mackie MR5.
Total price = 278euros. They're my favorites under 400euros.

Your system may very well work for you, this is not the issue here. The topic is about systems in general.
Noone relies entirely on theory to build his system. All of us have to hear it to believe it.

But it so happens that with experience, many of us find that theory applies. We also learn to nuance our observations and rather try to see why our expectations were wrong rather than saying that scientific theory doesn't apply.

If I had a 38cm woofer in a small square closed room without hearing reasonnances, I would rather worried, than satisfied...

One good solution for small rooms is coupling. If you have an adjascent room that isn't noisy and very small, you can simply open the door (door not too close to speakers...) to avoid resonnance and part of the unneeded reflections.



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https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 27 2009 at 09:02
I just ordered the Logitech X-540 today, to replace my old X-530s, which a friend of mine will put to good use (watching TV & DVDs).

The X-540 is just an improved version of the X-530 with a bit more power. But the major improvement is that the right speaker is not combined with the console (volume knobs, headphones etc) anymore.


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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 08:13
5.1 for 90euros... leaves me very sceptical


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https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 30 2009 at 09:56
^ they're 70W RMS - so if you have a large room and/or want to listen at really high volume, they're not powerful enough. But when you use them as computer speakers and you sit right between them (2-3 feet away), the sound is really great.


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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 17:00
cabasse la sphere coaxial computer speakers........$176,000 a pair.....should sound good in any room


Posted By: mono
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 04:27
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

cabasse la sphere coaxial computer speakers........$176,000 a pair.....should sound good in any room


A bad room can ruim any speaker (at a certain volume of course). Try them in a small bathroom!


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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: December 16 2009 at 12:32
I would love to try them but I am a little short on cash right now


Posted By: mono
Date Posted: December 17 2009 at 02:33
...imagine trying them.
I just mean to say: no system can sound great in all rooms.


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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else



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