Prog and Lucifer
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6247
Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 01:35
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Topic: Prog and Lucifer
Posted By: DallasBryan
Subject: Prog and Lucifer
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 22:45
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Whats you feeling on their relationship. Most of the
great progressive rock from the 70's was made by those under the influence of psychedelics, narcotics and practitioners of occult, new age or mystical teachings. Most of the european progressive music was also developed for listening to in the altered state that the musicians were being enhanced by. Whats your opionion? 
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Replies:
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 23:22
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Lucifer, meaning "light-bringer", is another name for the devil of Judeo-Christian mythology. Nominally, he is conceptually related to Prometheus, who brought the gift (and curse) of fire to mankind. He also sometimes represents the divine spirit flawed by pride and/or vanity. Considering drugs and esoteric religions as symptomatic of satanic or demonic influence is still a common idea among the religiously conservative or orthodox, even in this relatively cosmopolitan day and age. However, seekers of 'light' have almost universally explored such avenues- especially artists and philosophers, for whom orthodoxy often seems both restrictive and shallow. Musicians (of the artistic rather than the performing-monkey variety) ride the dangerous line between the intense discipline of mastering their art and the desire to bring new 'light' into a mundane world. As little Lucifers, or diminuative Prometheans, their efforts are often regarded with suspicion, contempt, or even loathing by the orthodox. One of the main goals of the psychedelic movement was to 'open the doors of perception'. By allowing people to see the world in a different way, it was thought that a new age of enlightenment could arise. The failure of that movement was not the fault of the ideals, but of the trappings and collateral. Many people realized, as Ken Kesey tried to explain at the last Acid Test, that once the doors of perception were opened you could not simply keep going through them over and over again...you had to find your own path, your own answer to the riddle. Many people did not understand, or could not find that answer, and were lost. One can mourn the lost and yet celebrate the light they brought. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 01:00
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Drugs influence and exotic religions is very common in Prog' band even more in Psychedelia, but honestly I can't find Satanic influence in Prog' with one or two exceptions. Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 08:50
Comus, perhaps? They have a very "pagan" feel at any rate... |
ivan_2068 wrote:Posted By: MorgothSunshine
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 09:08
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Drugs and alterd perceptions were very common but satanism is a little bit different! I can say only few bands that had a " satanic" appeal: -Black Widow; -Jacula; Bands like Black Sabbath or Lucifer's Friend were absolutely not satanic in the real sense, they just like occultism and like to present theirselves with a dark halo... ------------- For every truth even the contrary is true... 
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Posted By: con safo
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 11:28
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Alot of acid-folk bands used pagan themes in their music, namely Comus, Jan Dukes De Gray, Aphrodites Child.. Many times they weren't directly about satan but dealed with very dark and morbid subjects. I personally love the tense atmosphere that pagan themes can emit, they can be truly chilling. ------------- 
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Posted By: geezer
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 11:46
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My choice as the king of this category would definately be Jacula.
Apparently, some of their recording sessions include real satanic
cults. When I listen to "Tardo Pede in Magiam Versus" I do not have any
doubts. Could the session be what's in the 2nd track "Praesentia
Domini"? Scary stuff! There has even been some texts (rumours?) that one of their band members was killed in a satanic cult. I could be wrong here. Black metal is another thing but I doubt any band can beat Jacula in the progressive world. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 12:19
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Con Safo, Aphrodite's Child has nothing to do with satanism, they all are members of the Catholic Orthodox Church. 666 was the title of their best album, but it's a very respectful adaptation of The Book of Saint John also called the Apocalypse or Book of Revelations. They gained the fame of stanists because they said 666 was composed under the influence of Sahlep, all the fundamentalist churchs accused them of worshiping a pagan divinity, some even said Sahlep was a Greek name for Satan,, something you can still find on the net. But the truth is that Sahlep is a common alcoholic beverage from Turkey, Cyprus and Greece. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Litl
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 13:01
EXCELLENT Mr. Lee. We blind ourselves with our orthodoxy. It becomes common, then assumed, then mundane, then staid, and then, having lost its original inspiration and intent, becomes insecure and therefore self-righteous (I live in the USA after all!). That's where hallucinogens come in. They break up the old crust and let us see anew again. (Think of the '60's). They let the light back in, the light that was forgotten while the old orthodoxy calcified. There is much more to be concerned with the opiate of the masses than desire for Light. I'm not promoting the use of hallucinogens here, but making a point about Light. There are other ways to it and as JL closes with in his post, you've got to find your own way to it, and without a crutch. And: to employ the concept of satan toward such an endeavor is the fear of the orthodoxy expressing itself, nothing more. Like anything else it wants to survive and anything that threatens this is labeled as bad. Pax |
Posted By: con safo
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 13:32
I figured i'd get a reply like this .. i never claimed they were satanists, but the album 666 does deal with the apocolypse, and of course paganism and satan play a role in that. -------------
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Posted By: abyssyinfinity
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 13:57
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Listen to Coven's "Witchcraft" and their fantastic masterpiece Black Mass (13.17 mins. lenghth...)
Also, despite their name, Biglietto per l'Inferno (Ticket to Hell), is not in satanic vein, on the contrary their singer is now a monk in Garfagnana (Italy)!!! 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 18:54
Satan plays a role in Apocalypse,but from the Christian/Catholic point of view, it's a prophecy that hasn't been fullfilled yet, Satanism has nothing to do with Apocalypse, is the prophecy of the triumph of God over the Devuil. But for God's sake Reveletions is a Book from the Holy Bible, Paganism has nothing to do with that. Iván -------------
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Posted By: con safo
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 19:04
I haven't listened to the album very thoroughly. I figured it was about the apocolypse, and that usually has something to do with satan, so i listed it. Forgive me please for i have sinned.. Now can i come down off of this cross?  -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 22:19
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Con Safo wrote:
You're forgiven my child Iván -------------
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Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: May 16 2005 at 22:53
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thanks for explaining the 5 minute witch howling
orgasm, is that one of the rituals of the orthodox? 
James you dance well for a puppet boy! 
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 17 2005 at 01:37
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All in good fun.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 17 2005 at 12:58
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Dallas Bryan wrote:
I was expecting that question DB, and the answer is simple, Infinity is a reference to the whore of Babylon who corrupted all the kings in the Apocalypse. (Revelations Chapters 17 and 18) I told you, it's very close to the Scriptures. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: May 28 2005 at 15:11
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This guy like good music yust like everybody else
The evil one sits and lisen to the Devils triangle by King Crimson and he dig it! ------------- 
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Posted By: banjocat
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 14:22
| AARON NO YOU DID NOT FOOL QUITE EVERYONE! "BLACK MASS LUCIFER" WAS ONE OF THE FIRST RECORDS i EVER BOUGHT. nEVER SEEN THE CD THOUGH. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 16:27
YO! CAPS LOCK MAN! ITS AN ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC ALBUM!  Dr Z: Three Parts to my Soul  Another disturbing occult, electronic obscurity: Ruth White: Flowers of Evil There's another album presented there, some electronic meditation album I have't heard. There's loads of occult-flirting prog, but very litte satanic. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 16:52
The Pope is associated with 666.
VICARIUS FILII DEI (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God)
I = 1 V = 5 X = 10 L=50 C=100 D=500 M=1000
V.................... 5
I..................... 1 C.................100 A.................... 0 R.................... 0 I..................... 1 U.................... 5 S.................... 0 F.....................0 I......................1 L................... 50 I...................... 1 I.......................1 D...................500 E......................0 I.......................1 TOTAL = 666 I know. Just a co-incidence.
I had read somewhere that the proper translation of Revelation does not even yield a 666 reference. That was probably hogwash as well. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 23:43
Not even a coincidence, it's an invention of an Adventist farmer called William Miller (1782-1849) who made a lot of propphesies including the end of the workld, of course none was real.
Then was used by Ellen Gould White (1827-1915), another fanatic leader of a group.
What this liars never said is that they invented a tittle that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEVER USED THE TITTLE "VICARIUS FILII DEI" THAT'S AN ABSURD LIE
The tittle the Pope receives is VICARIUS CHRISTI.
BTW: Even in the utopic and already denied case they were using the Latin Translation, the the sumatory is wrong in the word VICARIUS being that if the
IU = IV = 4, not 6 , so the sumatory would be 664 but they don't talk this.
As Don Quixote said "The dogs bark Sancho, it's a sign we're advancing"
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 07 2007 at 07:01
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AFAIK the Catholic church interprets 666 as a code refering to the Emeror Nero.
------------- What? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 10:17
Actually each letter is summed individually, but it made something else stick out. I did not even notice that 5 was applied to the letter U. It should have been 0 thus the total would be 661. -------------
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Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 10:40
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"SATAN!!!! I SEE SATAN!!!!!!" - Common prog musician on LSD -------------  
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 09 2007 at 13:35
U and V were the same letter in the Latin alphabet, the U was not treated as a seperate character until the Renaissance. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SolomonsMarbles
Date Posted: July 13 2007 at 03:57
Can't recall any bands I listen to being involved with satanic ritual, and with a few exceptions my taste mostly lies within groups who started in the seventies... I know the drummer for Tool(Mike Portnoy I believe?) is interested/involved with occult but I don't like much Prog Metal which is where I'd expect most of the occult influence to be. And I don't think psychedelics should be associated with satanism, nor narcotics with mysticism and so forth... |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 13 2007 at 04:04
this is mostly false... plus, it's almost impossible to play or compose properly while intoxicated on major psychedelics. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 13 2007 at 09:21
 I have to step in on this. Mike Portnoy is the drummer for Dream Theater. Danny Carey is the Tool Drummer. You may have insulted Tool fans with that statement. Carey is a far more tasteful drummer, IMO.-------------
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Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 16:23
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All men,whether they be musicians, plumbers, waiters, politicians, ministers, priests, professors etc, are sons of Satan (John 8:44, Ephesians 2) until they have received God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. Christ suffered, died, shed his blood for the remission of man's sin, and then rose again so that man might be justified. Until a man can humble himself and receive Christ he is according to Jesus"Of his father the devil", That is why "Ye must be born again" The new birth into GOD's family. Musicians, whether they play prog or rap or classical or elevator music walk according to the prince of the power of the air. Satan. Who is called in 2 Corinthians "An angel of light" Christ Jesus is called in the scriptures "The true Light" ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 16:30
And here I thought Rock was the devil's music all this time. Woohoo!!! I guess sex outside the need to procreate is OK too!!!!! Sweet, no extra Hail Mary's for me tonight. -------------
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 16:35
Well, not Christian musicians, right? |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 16:37
Why should the Devil get all the good music? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 16:56
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I just realized that JesusisLord is a troll? Who would have ever thought Jesus would have his followers trolling? Surely there is a passage for it somewhere?
Ah yes, in John 121, "And while chewing on locusts below the fig tree he had restored unto life, the Lord looked upon his disciples, now speaking in tongues, and said "Lo, there will be those who speak to each other from the corners of the world and discuss the sounds made from various devices collectively and simultaneously. To them I instruct you to enter their domain and preach the evils of these sounds they will call music." -------------
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:00
^Yes very funny  
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Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:02
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To StylaZan- According to the Bible sex between and husband and a wife is not only sanctioned but encouraged as well. It's great .I hope you and your wife are enjoying as well, but what does that have to do with what we are talking about, unless yours was a knee-jerk reaction to something that did not go down so well ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:03
Not a fan of Monty Python's "Life of Brian"?
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:05
So the purpose of you posting here is...?
And Christian music is not devil music? -------------
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:05
I love that movie. But that is not making fun of the religion itself but gullible people that believe almost anything..and so they did a parody on Christians and mistaken identiy |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:07
Right...gullible people.
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Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:18
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If you read again my original post, the point being made was that prior to receiving salvation through Christ, all men are lost and have been born into the wrong family. The common misconception that we are all God's children is entirely unbiblical. The Bible teaches that you become a child of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 2) So a man regardless of what he does, or a musician, regardless of what he plays is still either a child of God, having been born into God's family by receiving Christ, or he is still lost, unsaved and in the devil's household because He has rejected the gift of God(John 3: 16-19) Pick up a Bible read it yourself. I didn't write it. ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:21
Oh, and by the way, I'm not a troll. Chances are if we ever met, we would probably get along quite well ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 17:49
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Ozzy - "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" (Luke 6:5)
Jethro Tull - "They sing to the music of tambourine and harp; they make merry to the sound of the flute" (Job 21:12) <- though Rush would also apply
Pink Floyd - "When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed" (Joshua 6:20) ------------- What? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 23:51
In Latin as in most languages, the numbers are written in hoprizontal order from left to right so I will highlight the numbers existing:
VI C A R IV S F I L I I DEI
6 +100 + 4 + 1 + 50 + 2 + 500 + 1 = 664
The letters IV readed in horizontal sense mean 4, there's no other possible way to read this, that's the reason why the Bigot placed his anagram in vertical position, so his trick could not be found, but the Roman language is not readed vertically.
But it's all a fallacy because the title of the Pope is VICARIUS CHRISTI, the one this fanatics invented doesn't exist anywhere.
This is just as a cutriosity because who cares about fanatics?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:31
OMG! My parents are not going to like this. -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:33
OK, you bring your bible and I'll bring my Aesop Fables. We can compare notes. Oh, and can I bring my UFO files too? I have a great series on DVD of "In Search of..." too.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:33
are you sure of that?  ------------- What? |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:41
 That's what I call erudition! ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:49
OK, I just called my folks. They breathed a sigh of relief. They were wondering when I was going to find out.
Obligatory Prog content: "And the meek shall inherit the earth...." Rush - 2112
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 08:50
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 10:58
Ivan, you do get 666 if you see every letter as a single number. Then the "IV" in Vicarius become "1+5" instead of "4", and the letters count up to 666. And since ILII does not make sense at all, you obviously have to see the numbers separately. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:06
Assuming that it FILII DEI and not CHRISTI follow on to the next question.
OK, I'm curious and maybe I didn't understand, but how do we know it is in fact IV and not a separate I and V? -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:09
Because there is a sequence ILII in VICARIUS FILII DEI. This sequence highly suggests that the numbers have to be taken one by one, since "ILII" is not a legitimate Latin number. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:15
The sequence concept seems to make sense. Why would only the IV be treated together as a paired set of characters? Well, it shouldn't becuase no where else does it.
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:16
OFF TOPIC: Friederike, we share a birthday  . Along with Mozart and Nick Mason 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:27
And Lewis Carroll, who wrote "Alice in Wonderland".  ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:29
OK, it can be debated, But the tittle VICARIUS FILII DEI doesn't exist, is an invention, was, is and will never be used, it was FORGED by ELEN GOULD WHITE fv the Seventh Day Adventiost Church who made prophecies about the end of the world before the XX Century arrived and of course where false.
Even her own Church ignores her prophecies because of the Sola Scriptura principle, being that if her adivination jokes where true the Bible would not be the only source of salvation.
The tittle of the Pope is VICARIUS CHRISTI and before that VICARIUS PETRI
Iván -------------
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:32
And Schelling... but poor Fichte passed away on the same day! Sorry for the offtopic  ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:33
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Off the Prog topic but this is cool. I read the book too.
The Prophecy of the Popes, attributed to Saint Malachy, is a list of 112 short phrases in Latin. They purport to describe each of the Roman Catholic popes (along with a few anti-popes), beginning with Pope Celestine II (elected in 1143) and concluding with a later added pope described in the prophecy as "Peter the Roman", whose pontificate will end in the destruction of the city of Rome followed by the Last Judgement.
We are on the last Pope now! Odd how Rome gets destroyed. Why Rome?
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:37
And Thomas Crapper died on that day (I don't think I need to explain what he's famous for  ) |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:54
Well, the Bible also says that anyone who does any work on the Sabbath must be put to death and that anyone who blasphemes against God must be stoned to death by the congregation, so there you go. ------------- 
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 11:59
Let the awareness of Bible contradictions and evils deeds begin!!!
Oh boy, I have seen this on other forums. The Bible fundamentalists always lose.  -------------
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 12:04
Let the arguing begin!  GO!GO!GO!GO!GO!GO!GO!GO! and they're off! Round the first corner.... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 12:26
Oh, pleae don't. I made my counter-post to make a point not to start an argument - this will only end in tears.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:25
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Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father,ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God: neither came I of myself, but He sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? Even because Ye cannot understand my word. Ye are of your Father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there was no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if i say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: Ye hear them not because Ye are not of God. John 8:42-47 ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:33
Hey Jesus,
Still waiting for an answer:
So the purpose of you posting here is...? (as related to Prog music)
And Christian music is not devil music?
Oh, and when quoting Jesus of the bible, you are supposed to use a different font color. All the best bibles do this.
-------------
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Posted By: JesusisLord
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:35
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Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceiveth not in him the lips of knowledge.
Proverbs 14:7
I'm done with this thread. See you guys back with the music ------------- And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:11 |
Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:35
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Satanism is a ridiculous religion. It claims to oppose Christianity's "weak-mindedness" and "meekness"...but it's based in Judeo-Christian mythology. So, I'm pretty sure there might be one or two prog bands that fiddled around with "Satan" to sound cool and mysterious...but I doubt even many of the psychedelic folks took it seriously. Religions that influence prog disproportionately would probably be agnosticism/atheism and the New Age mystical currents. Neither have anything to do with Satan. And I would venture a guess that informal or formal Christianity is the religion of many prog-heads, and is a plurality (not a majority, but still the largest group), followed by agnosticism/atheism, followed by Jews and New Agers. I can't think of any Islamic influence. There is tons of music influenced by the Dharmic religions, but whether there are many Buddhists or Hindus in prog is difficult to say. |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:36
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i would venture that quite a few of the space rock set are buddhist converts ;P ps. your bible thread set off my smoke alarm ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:38
I really have to say this....how convenient.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:39
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Jean and I are of a pagan religion. We worship Gaia, the Great Mother.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 16:42
Also off topic but on yours, I share my birthdate with Norah Jones, Celine Dion, MC Hammer, Eric Clapton, and Frankie Lane. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 20:57
Sorry about that, but i think Gaia worship (it's the greek word for earth ;-)) is just feminism with the cover of religion. ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 21:44
Oh, but worship of the Great Mother was the origin of all religion. And may I counter your remark with "Judaism, Christianity and Islam are just patriarchy with the cover of religion". ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 22:01
Absolutely. All the prehistoric religious artifacts found (dating back 10's of thousands of years) have been of female images and/or relating to the earth. ------------- What? |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 06:37
Yes you can, but i do not put a gender label to God :-) So for me is not a patriarchy with the cover of religion -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 06:43
Oh, come on! If you are of the Christian religion of course you do! He is called "father" all the time and not "mother" even once! And the prayer goes "Our father, which art in heaven..." ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 13:22
Sorry for the offtopic!
{That's my opinion, and doesnt represent everyones opinion about God whatsoever } God is an entity, the creator of us, the humans. God devided humans into male and female, each one having some specific characteristics. That's it. The 'Father' is just a sympolic label for God. My opinion is, because women at the times of Jesus Christ had limited freedom, he, Jesus Christ, had to be born as a boy. So, Jesus had to say that God was his father. I don't think that people of Israel at the times would be tolerate a woman to preaching. Or even a man who have says that God was his mother. Is just a name. Also i like to add that God, for me, has mother and father quantities equally. He is like a mother and a father. In the other hand whenever i say to an whorshiper of Gaia that Earth is a father too, he/she feel offended. So, it is sounds like a feminism movement :-) I hope my english are good enough to give you the idea :) -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 13:40
Maybe YOU don't put a gender label on God, but these religions clearly do. In an age where the scale of Yin and Yang, the male and female principle in Chinese, clearly is out of kilter and balanced towards the male principle, it is just not enough to go for a lukewarm compromise to recreate that balance; there is time for that later. So we throw our weight fully onto the other scale. There may come a time when this no longer will be needed, but it is a long way to go. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 13:46
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This thread could be heading for DNRTM. The discussion is quite civil at the moment so if the contributors want it moved there so that off-topic discussion can continue then just drop me a PM. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 14:05
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Right, let's get back to Lucifer in prog. "Gog / Magog (In Bromine Chambers)" from Peter Hammill's solo album "In Camera" comes to my mind.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: August 05 2007 at 07:26
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Οκ, Perils by Miasma And The Carouse Of Headless Horses. -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 06 2007 at 09:14
What I always found interesting is that in some of the early Gnostic Christian documents, Jesus refers to God as a woman.
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 06 2007 at 09:22
I just thought of this...
Putting a gender on anything, suggests the need for a counterpart. Why have a male without a female or vice versa? The purpose of gender is what?
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 16:55
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Okay I think we are missing the band that threw satanism and ocultism into the mainstream... LED ZEPPELIN!!!
C'mon, Jimmy Page is the epidomy of dark religion in music. He boght a mansion where a chrch was burnt down and a satanist priest built the house.
This is part of the reason I dont respect led zep in any way.
On the argument about the religion, I dont understand why some idiots would make an anti christian faith anyway, just to upset us christians? I highly respect what jesusislord was saying earlier, and we shouldnt be finding little conspiracies in the name of stuff like vicarius domine or whatever. ------------- 
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 17:01
werd, bro. |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 17:09
I think they only call God "He" because they have to call Him something. "It" wouldn't be personal at all, and at the time when He was first being called "He", feminists were not exactly popular. I remind you that He is also referred to as "Lord" which doesn't specify a gender. Now let's move on from that... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 17:27
Why would they do that? Nobody has ever created an anti-christian faith - that just doesn't make sense - you cannot make a religion about being against something and honestly, no one would bother doing it just to upset christians. ------------- What? |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 17:36
I suppose we could call God "they." In the beginning, they created the heaven and the earth etc. -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 17:37
Certainly "Lord" specifies a gender; the female opposite of "Lord" is "Lady". ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 17:44
| Let's all just pretend I didn't make that last remark. Cool? Cool. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 07 2007 at 23:05
Believe it ot not they are a lot of anti Christian quasi religious groups, but that's the fault of some Christians, once the Catholic Church was extremely unpopular, now some Christians who reject Catholics, Orthodox, Mornmons, Jehova Witness, etc, claim to be the chosen ones.
Once the Catholic Church was very closed, now the Popes have asked excvuses for past mistakes, we are willing to admit that salvation is an open door for everybody, but some Christian groups are becomming more and more radical.
It doesn't help that every bigot calls himself the true Christian, you have Bob Jones who creates a University that doen't admit interracial dating or even marriages among their students of different races, a fanatic who insults catholics, Jewishs, Moslems, etc.
Every white supremacy group claims to talk in the name of Christ. Stupid fanatics who call themseves "Pro Life" bomb abortion clinics and kill people and they say they do it in the name of Christ (I'm not in favour of abortion except in some specific cases like rape or therapeutical abortion, but I'm more against this lunatics)..
Neo nazis and KKK claim to be Christians, even George W who is a Christian and represents USA, goes to the racist, homophobic and anti.Catholic Bob Jones University during his campaign.
The sad thing is that the good Christians with open minds have to suffer the reaction against all this bigots.
The rational Christian Churches should take a strong position against this lunatics instead of calling them "mistaken brothers" or else the anti-Christian feeling will keep growing.
I'm not talking about real Christians, because I respect every belief or disbelief, but a few criminals and bigots destroy what the good men do.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 01:32
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I have a friend who loves to call me anti-Christian (which I don't necessarily take as an insult) every time I counter his creationist debates (more like poorly-founded rants). I'm not specifically anti-christian, I'm kind of anti-organized religion in general. It just strikes me as incredibly silly. Sure, people needed religion to keep them in line a thousand years ago, but I think our society has reached a point where that is no longer needed. -------------   |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 01:41
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Guys, I found the first Satanic album ever recorded!
------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 01:56
This is not a question of society needs, or you believe or you don't, it's somethinmg personal.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 01:58
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Well, that's the thing. I totally respect someone having a personal epiphany of sorts, having a spiritual discovery of their own. But I don't think that organized religion really is that personal.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 02:03
If you believe an organized religion is the truth...then it's a personal choice,
Some people may create their own cult and others can find the truth in a religion 2,000 years old and with 1.5 billion believers, nobody can tell us it's wriong as we don't tell people atheism or agnosticism is wrong.
Iván
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 02:10
Maybe YOU don't, but there's an awful lot that do. I get a pretty good amount of crap from some Christian buddies of mine. ------------- |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 02:23
Then you are judging all religious people for your buddies, who may be fundamentalists.
Your problem is with your friends not with organized religion.
I'm against any form of fanatism, fundamentalism or sectarism, I believe reliigion must be open for everybody and most religious people do.
Tell your buddies to go to hell or ignore them as I do with everybody who speaks crap about my beliefs, live and let live, don't be as sectarian as they are, you should teach to be tolerant with your behaviour.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: August 08 2007 at 02:54
Wow, that's one of the dumbest things I've read on this topic yet!
Satanism is COMPLETELY against christianity! Thats just naive not to think that!
POLAR OPPOSITES! -------------
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