The first prog-metal album in time
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61738
Printed Date: November 24 2024 at 17:13
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Topic: The first prog-metal album in time
Posted By: aapatsos
Subject: The first prog-metal album in time
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 18:38
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Going through my books and excluding any prog-metal related albums (or however else you call them) I concluded that the first progressive metal (as we know it now) album in time should be the mighty Rage for Order from Queensryche  Listening to the album again and again I realise now why this has been hailed as one of the first real progressive metal albums. Although there are no crazy complex arrangements, obscure timing patterns and unexpected breaks, it still sounds very very ahead of its time (1986). I still believe that the term progressive metal has been given to this album due its innovative sound - a sound that has not been heard before with some avant-garde and ''electronic'' elements. While the band had released an EP and The Warning album in 1983 and 1984 respectively, both of them where much closer to american power metal (which I also believe was somewhat first played by them...). In 1986 there are also albums such as Awaken the Guardian but I see it as a more technical power metal album rather than ''prog'' as we call it now. I am always fond of discussions on views on groundbreaking albums that changed or invented a musical genre and looking forward to hear your views. |
Replies:
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 19:03
I respectfully disagree with that statement. Rage for Order was 1986, but 1985 had a few albums that were key in the formation of prog metal. The be honest, I don't find Rage for Order to even be that progressive. My vote goes for Watchtower's Energetic Disassembly.This 1985 album was the first prog metal album ever IMO. It contained complexity and variety, and it is certainly not the type of metal you just bang your head to. I think Queensryche played a key role in the formation of prog metal, but this is the first actual prog metal album. -Jeff ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 21:06
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Come on! No one else has any comments!
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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: daslaf
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 21:27
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sorry I'm not really into prog metal so I guess I can't make any contribution here =/ ------------- But now my branches suffer And my leaves don't bear the glow They did so long ago |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 21:34
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath by Black Sabbath 
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 22:02
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mm i think that some of the NWOHM have the early traces of what going to become prog metal
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Posted By: Tarquin Underspoon
Date Posted: October 03 2009 at 22:50
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I agree that Queensryche was the first real prog metal band. I think that The Warning would get my vote for very first prog metal album. I don't think that the electronic or avant-garde elements are essential to create prog metal. That said, I still think these elements were somewhat present on The Warning.
Just listen to N M 156, for example, if you doubt me  ------------- "WAAAAAAOOOOOUGH! WAAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!! WAAAAAOOOO!!!" -The Great Gig in the Sky |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 00:34
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the Watchtower album is a good call.. English band Automatic Fine Tuning, though not necessarily metal by today's standards, released their breakthrough debut in 1976 with possibly the first true tech-guitar rock album ../artist.asp?id=3955 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3955 |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 02:19
I fully agree with Jeff here. I saw the headline of the thread and instantly thought of this album. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
J-Man wrote:Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 03:34
That makes 3 of us then, and well put Jeff. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: terryl
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 03:50
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never heard of watchtower but am intrigued.
------------- And who are we to justify the right in all we do Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0 |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 04:36
this is the first prog metal album (from 1969): -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 04:59
^ I certainly saw this coming ...  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 05:02
And this is the first stoner rock album :
 (1968)------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 06:56
 I completely forgot Watchtower's debut, shame on me... I always thought Energetic Disasasembly was released in 1986 but that's utterly wrong...  Indeed a worth-listening album which has not received the proper attention if you ask me |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 06:58
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 07:52
Ha Ha ....Nice...very nice. Thanks Bald jean for the pointer
 It's on Spotify by the way if anyone cares to listen!
No real comment to make as I'm not a prog-metal afficionado! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 15:52
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wasnt the first prog metal SONG King Crimson's "21st Century Schizoid Man"? (1969). i would call it that.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: JROCHA
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 16:19
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Fly By Night or Caress of Steel
------------- Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights... |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 16:24
I'll get shot for this, but I've always found the first Prog Metal album to be... Ride The Lightning. 
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 17:44
I feel so smart right now   -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Hexenmeister
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 20:29
1983.   ------------- Check out my podcast on iTunes: Temple of Snakes Metal Podcast http://templeofsnakes.blogspot.com - templeofsnakes.blogspot.com |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 04 2009 at 23:17
You make a compelling argument! Fripp's distorted chords certainly raised the bar for later metal. I was thinking of Captain Beyond and their first LP, but nobody has mentioned them yet....Iron Butterfly with Ryno Reinhardt and Lee Dorman certainly had a progressive metal quality also. Good topic, thanks!
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Posted By: hellocruelworld
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 11:53
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Flower Travelin' Band - Satori (1971) http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=18211 |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 12:43
I concur also. f**king great album as well. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 13:04
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Watchtower are a Houston Texas band that were part of the same stable with King's X and the Galactic Cowboys, and they all played a similar style of metal with progressive leanings.
I'd concur a bit with Metallica's Ride The Lightning, as well. At least, it was the first of its kind that I ever heard, and it does pre-date the Watchtower album.
Watchtower's singer went on to perform with the Dangerous Toys, with such spectacular songs as Sportin' A Woody.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 13:11
Spotify is nice ... as long as you live in a country where it's available. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 13:23
Hmm...I see next to no similarities between Watchtower and King´s X and Galactic Cowboys. But yeah they were part of the stable as I recall. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 13:30
| I would have thought prog metal began with Sabbath or Rush. Sabotage or Caress of Steel... |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 13:37
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Arguably, Led Zeppelin were also part of the foundation of prog metal and probably had some prog metal songs, but no full blown prog metal album. -------------
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 14:19
I think Caress of Steel is more so of a progressive hard rock album, but they do have some hints towards prog metal. I think Permanent Waves (particularly the last song) is almost a prog metal album. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 14:28
Arguably, yes. I'm thinking more of the origins of prog metal. Permenant Waves is probably closer to what prog metal has since evolved into, but in terms of a start point, I reckon the chapter 1 Rush albums marked the beginning. Although, I have always regarded Black Sabbaths Sabotage as a genuine original prog metal album. It has the a good combination of full on metal riffs, atmospherics and sound effects.. 
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Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:53
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I agree with J-Man is definitively the first real progressive metal album. Had it back then, along side of Queensryche's "The Warning" both changed my musical listening direction in 84/85. However, also released in 1985 was Fates Warning's "The Spectre Within" which shaped a lot of the prog metal to come..
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:56
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Watchtower "Enegetic Disassembly"1st prog "METAL" release to clarify.
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:58
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To be honest, I don't think there is a definitive "first" prog metal album. I believe if I had to pick one, it would be Energetic Disassembly (as I mentioned earlier), but there were so many "proto-prog metal" albums leading up to that to the point where I can't pick a single "first" prog metal album. I think the first traces of prog metal go back to Rush, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple (particularly Rush), but these were by no means prog metal bands. What I'm trying to say is that it wasn't like one day there's no prog metal, and the next day there is, but more so a series of key albums leading up to Rage for Order and Energetic Disassembly. -Jeff -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 20:07
I agree, even if I'm not an expert of the topic... However, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or 2112, while very proggish and metal it has nothing to do with the Prog Metal sound we all know. In that case I concur with Jeff and say that these bands were more Heavy Progressive than Prog Metal. This comes to mind for real Prog Metal alike:  |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 20:14
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I'd probably say Watchtower also. A few others worth mentioning. obscure US band called Legend had one album out called "From the Fjords" (from 1979) which was heavily influenced by Rush and NWOBHM Manilla Road's "Mark of the Beast" (recorded in 1981) had a fairly Epic Progressive Rock dominance, more so influenced by Hawkwind "warrior on the edge of time" era me thinks.... also obscure Italian Doom Metal band Black Hole existed in the early 80s with a slew of demos and their debut album "Land of Mystery" 1985, was strongly influenced by their countries rich history in Progressive Rock, particularly Goblin, Fabio Frizzi, Libra, Metamorfosi, etc |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 20:30
There were definitely albums/bandsmentioned here as well prior to Watchtower, one such album would be "Sad Wings Of Destiny" Judas Priest, vocally for sure and some of the tracksw/progressive elements (especially for the times) like "Victim Of Changes", " Prelude", Genocide" Tyrant" ... ah!! screw it the whole thing was great. And this was 1976.
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 20:34
^if that counts, then why not this, and it was 1973! |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 20:37
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Ya, Sabbath and Priest should count as pre- cursors to Watchtower, I'm not saying Judas Priest's was the first prog metal album.
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 20:52
YES!!!!!!!!!!!  Fully agree!------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Repner
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 22:52
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While it may not count for the whole album, I always thought Larks Tongues In Aspic part 1 by King Crimson was a very heavy song for it's time. But yeah, like J-man said, I think prog gradually emerged over a period of time ------------- 
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 06:05
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I agree with the mention of 21st Century Schizoid Man, but that was only one song.
For me the first complete Prog-Metal album was Deep Purple in Rock (1970).
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 06:33
Unfortunately it isn't metal, but this.......  Or if not, maybe....  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 06:40
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Maybe it's me, but I've always thought Rush to be too soft for Metal.
I get where you're coming from, but to my ears there was much more metally Prog-Metal around.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 06:44
Tell me what? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 06:59
| Where is Savatage or Crimson Glory, Sieges Even???? they release albums in mid '80's, so when prog metal was in his infancy, they have a share among the first to combine metal with prog elements. Definetly agree with Watchtower after all. And I will gone deep in time maybe Black Sabbath albums the early ones. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 07:45
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Crimson Glory hell yeah why did I forget them? Sieges Even´s first album was released in 1988 as I recall and Savatage only started incorporating progressive elements to their sound later in their career IMO. Maybe I´m wrong though but the early albums I´ve heard by Savatage sounded pretty straight forward heavy metal/ US power metal to me. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Anirml
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 08:18
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haven't heard anything from the 70's that sounds like Prog metal. Prog metal came somewhere in the 80's i think. The 70's was hard rock i'd say. Prog metal seems to be very influenced by bands like Metallica and Marillion. NWOBHM doesn't sound like any prog metal band either. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 10:25
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I think the thing to remember here is that prog metal as a genre, certainly as its been seen for the last 15 years, didnt exist in the 70's so I consider albums from Rush, Led Zepplin, Judas Priest, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, High Tide, Iron Maiden, Metallica etc, to be precursers that set the ball rolling and with Wtchtower's ED as the most likely first album that took the final step to being full on Prog Metal. As for King Crimson being mentiond, no, just no. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Valarius
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 12:36
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You guys are all sooooo wrong.
The first ever Progressive Metal album was Dream Theater's 'When Dream and Day Unite'.
Before that, there was only The Beatles and Wham!
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 12:40
You are quite right, I totally forgot that fact! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 12:49
I agree with SD. This is the first Prog-Metal album: |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 13:29
I quite like how the thread has evolved and many people have contributed
To your comment I would partially agree. Crimson Glory released the debut in 1986 with lots of epic elemnts and certainly some prog-metal as we think of it now. Same year is also Heir Apparent's debut . Sieges Even debut is another one to applause - released in 1988 or 1989 if I remember correctly.
I have to agree on that - the first prog elements came into their music with Gutter Ballet in 1989 although HOTMK in 1987 was a brilliant record. |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 13:32
Well put That was in my initial post - there are certainly lots of albums that influenced the genre but nowhere near in sound as we now know it. Even Rush's albums which sounded heavy for their age - I would not call them prog metal |
Posted By: ignatiusrielly
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 13:33
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Well, prog metal is definitevely heavy, so bands like Rush,King Crimson or Deep Purple do not count, even if they were very influential. If we keep going back we will get to Vanilla Fudge and Cream, and we maybe would arrive to the conclusion that Beatles invented prog metal. (Well, there are some who claim that Beatles invented everything but I think that would be exaggerating a little bit.) Queensryche is not progressive metal, although Geoff Tate did influence vocalists in that field. Many metal bands in the 80´s incorporated prog influences (Iron Maiden, Metallica, Savatage, Helloween, King Diamond and many others).But if we listen to Yngwie Malmsteen´s debut album Rising Force from 1984 we can find many of the elements that would later be found in prog metal: tons of fast guitars, pounding double bass drum beats, classical (or pseudo classical) chops, a bigger keyboard presence than was usual in metal those days, focus on technique and interpretation rather than composition, and a singer that tries to sing like Dio. Maybe the songs do not have that many parts and there are no odd signatures, but I think the roots are there.
------------- Four pails of water and a bagfull of salts |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 14:22
Sorry, that was 1989, and I can think of many prog metal albums by bands like Queensryche, Blind Illusion, and Watchtower that came before that. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 15:41
He was joking....ahem... |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 15:42
He was joking about the Beatles and Wham! comment I believe... -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 17:07
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Most of 70's bands cited in the thread are heavy prog and NOT prog metal.
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Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 17:25
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 17:33
Yeah, I picked that up a little while ago -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 18:55
And everyone agrees with that, that said *most* 70's Heavy Prog bands are the precursors of Prog Metal like everyone said also. |
Posted By: Valarius
Date Posted: October 07 2009 at 03:20
I was being serious.
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Posted By: hours_of_wealth
Date Posted: October 15 2009 at 18:10
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Definitely High Tide's Sea Shanties, as some have said before. 1969! That predates both prog and metal! But really, that's my vote.
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Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: October 15 2009 at 18:16
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I don't know but Univers Zero's La Faulx (1978) could ALMOST be considered a prog metal epic!
------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |