The Political Compass Test
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Topic: The Political Compass Test
Posted By: King of Loss
Subject: The Political Compass Test
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 19:07
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As I am really interested in Politics. I'd like to see how it went for fellow Prog Archives forumers: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ - http://www.politicalcompass.org/ I can't wait to find out |
Replies:
Posted By: Ben2112
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 19:30
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Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -2.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.82 Interesting test! My incredibly conservative father would crap if he saw these results! 
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 19:44
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Your father would crap if he actually saw mine Hahahahhahahahaha ! Economic Left/Right: -5.75 |
Ben2112 wrote:Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 19:51
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: -2.38
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 20:04
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: -6.38
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Show graph on separate page for printing
I'm not amazed
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
Posted By: Ben2112
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 20:05
Indeed!
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Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 20:11
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Economic Left/Right: -3.88 I like it. ------------- 
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 20:16
bloody right wing aren't you ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 20:32
I ain't as hardcore as you Tuxon. -------------
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 20:44
Just teasing, If only more people, where half as left as you are, than i could shift to a more mediate possition
------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 21:11
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: 4.75
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die.
"Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
Posted By: BebieM
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 21:30
Economic Left/Right: 1.75
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Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 22:38
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Nice one, KoL, and there I was thinking that I'd mellowed in my old age I must admit that becoming a father of three has made me rather unforgiving when it comes to crimes against children ... I'd also started to get sentimental about my country ... I've also become disillusioned after 10 years as a youth leader of a small leftist party ... so I didn't expect this sort of score ... Economic Left/Right: -8.88
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"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 23:58
Surprise, surprise!
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Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 12 2005 at 23:59
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Trotsky, I'm surprised how close to the bottom of the chart you are.
Are you the anarcho-communist type that sees the gradual destruction of
the state, as Marx predicted, and the following creation of a
collectivist utopia? If you're more of the socialist type, then I'm
surprised that you're so close to the bottom. As a side, its funny how both you and I view the concept of "freedom" in such different ways. Anybody that close to the bottom is obviously an avid supporter of freedom for the individual, but depending on where you are economically, that "freedom" is seen to be achieved in such different ways. I am one to see an individual's freedom realized through the liberation of the market, whereas you see it through the tight regulation and/or popular control of the market. Not looking to start a debate here, just merely pointing out how the differences are rooted in the similarities. ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 00:02
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Bebie M, you're my closest ally! It seems that almost no one ever ends
up in the lower right corner. Even if you look on the political compass
site of past rulers and famous persons, they end up in every box other
than the lower right. So bizarre!
------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 00:02
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: -0.25
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Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 00:04
danbo, c'mon, thats so lame. centrism is political philosophy for fat
football watching husbands who work 8 to 5 in cubicles taking customer
service calls regarding quality control on potato chips. boooring! 
------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: Hierophant
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 00:14
Economic Left/Right: 0.38
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That's why im independent party.
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 00:37
Economic Left/Right: -5.13
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 02:39
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Economic Left/Right: -6.63 Me, maani, Trotsky and Gandhi...now that's a dinner party! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 02:48
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You know what Sweetnighter, I have caught myself thinking in the past that there are certain similarities in the methodology we employ to analyse things, and yet we've come up with very different conclusions (certainly on politics). For the record, I'm practically a social-democrat, with (for example) a strong belief in multi-party democracy over an autocratic state. I have of course, moved well away fom the days when I saw everything in black and white. A great part of my ideas stem from my unique childhood in which I lived in 9 different countries including the USSR, USA, Japan, Belgium as well as parts of S-E Asia (including Laos) and West Africa. I think the differences between the "socialism" I saw practiced in some of the so-called socialist countries (in which I either lived in or visited) and the socialism I read about in theory is what prompted me to investigate those ideas in the first place. Over the last decade however I have taken root in one place, and my ideas have changed somewhat (nothing changes you like parenthood I think). But I still see socialist principles making the most sense to me. For example I am also a union leader and I have had a long-running battle with our medical system (which has moved away emphatically from the welfare-state model the British left us to a far more capitalist operations). This has really affected me because one of my three children has an expensive uninsurable condition that has resulted in four operations costing about almost four years' worth of my paltry salary (and I'm only 32, so you imagine that's been tough). The way in which the system (in all aspects, not just economic ones) favours the wealthy and powerful and the profit-motive of capitalism seem to me to be inherently flawed. But I do very much enjoy the personal freedoms of thought and expression that I would not experience under a totalitarian regime. So in some ways, even though I am a leftist, I would much rather live in a relatively free right-wing state like the US or Malaysia, than I would in a totalitarian supposedly leftist state like (what's left?) Cuba or North Korea. Even when it comes to philosophical/religious ideas, I am no longer as rigid as I once was (devout Roman Catholic turned fanatically atheist, now "drifting"). My current household of 8, for example comprises four different races and four different religions that co-exist without any troubles. Having said all that, I was really very surprised at getting so radical a score! ------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 02:52
With Gandhi at the party, there might well be no food ... ------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 03:00
plenty of salt, though... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Trotsky
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 03:14
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Well boys, and girls (any so far?), the statistician in me decided to come up with this summary of our scores ... feel free to copy and paste as each new person takes the test ... (I must say I can't believe our anarchic Velvet Clown has a positive score on social liberties) Ben2112 King Of Loss Arsillus Tuxon Cygnus X-2 Sweetnighter BebieM Trotsky Maani Danbo Heirophant Velvetclown James Lee ------------- "Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.” "No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present." |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 03:15
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Economic Left/Right: -5.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: - 6.15
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 03:25
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I want gdub to show us his.
His score, I mean. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 03:32
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
He'll score somewhere between Ernst Roehm and Herman Goring, I imagine....
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 05:25
The Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.50
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Thats mine! 
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 05:36
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Well Trotsky my friend, I´m not just a Moron, I´m an OxyMoron as well ------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: Rob The Good
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 05:39
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Hmm, I'm definitely a minority here...
Economic Left/Right: 2.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.31 ------------- And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..." Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 06:01
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: -6.38
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 06:06
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That is because your views are rooted in political science and philosophy and not on experience. I am also extremely glad to see that politically you are very much on your own,if these "scores" are truly representative.Going back to the original website,I see that you are on your own as far as the historical comparison is concerned too. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 07:24
Interesting test - makes ya think, dunnit? 
Economic Left/Right: -5.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36 Apparently around the same score as Nelson Mandela.... ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 07:29
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So, Mr Rideout - if I am reading this correctly, you and I would agree on most economic issues, but I'd possibly find you much too namby-pamby on the Social Libertarian axis....
Just as I suspected! IGOR!!! THERE'S A BLEEDIN' HEART LIBERAL ON THE FORUM - RELEASE THE ATTACK BADGERS! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA +++strokes cat+++ -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 09:31
Economic Left/Right: -7.38
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 11:25
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All: Tony R, James Lee, Tuxon and myself all fall in the same quadrant, and not too far apart. I find that incredibly interesting given Tony R's and James' rabid "atheism" and tuxon and my strongly avowed spirituo-religious beliefs. Any thoughts? Peace. |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 12:05
 I'm right there with maaniboy. Edit: seems like I'm the most left person yet with -8 Only -2 towards libertanian though  ------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 12:20
You insist on being a nuisance with me, don't you? I have this feeling that you think I'm one of these wealthy, middle-upper class intellectual types. If you do, let me tell you that you're mistaken. Although my mother and I live comfortably, we've undergone lots of finanancial hardship. My mother works in the stagehand's union in the downtown theatre district, and by no means is bring home anywhere near a six-digit yearly income. Paying for college is going to be very difficult when we have to start doing that in a few years, and I'm going to have to do quite a lot of work on the side to pay for it. When my parents were first divorced, my mother even used food stamps. With hefty financial aid and good grades, I have been able to attend a decent prep school near my house. I go to school with the richest, most spoiled brats you've ever met. They drive their escalades and their jaguars around like it was nothing. Trust me, I would be one to be a liberal. Regardless, I am not, for a number of reasons. Yes, there is economic inequality, and there always will be, but that is not equatible with economic injustice. You only get out of the system what you put into it. Even through the worst of times my family members, many of whom are worse off than my mother once was, still believe that. Its an issue of self-confidence, and playing to those who work their hardest and do their best. Just because there are others who have more wealth than I does not, in my mind, give me or anybody else any moral right to take their well earned money. If that money that the rich have was not well earned, then their asses should be grilled in court for it. I'm not pro-business and I'm not pro-government. With power comes corruption, and the only way to eliminate that, so I believe, is through a balance of power. The American government has remained stable through a balance of three braches of government, but the balance of power between business, labor, and government has always been volatile. Whenever one reigns supreme, the people are bound to suffer. For this reason, I am not a conservative nor am I a liberal. Conservatives play to business interests, and liberals play to labor interests. I, for one, don't believe the government should be playing to any interests. Government everywhere should consist, in my mind, only of courts and police forces, designed solely to protect the rights of individuals everywhere.... ...but i digress. If anybody wants to continue this discussion with me, send me a PM. In any case, I don't find your chide remarks amusing and your condesending attitude is really rather unnecessary. ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 12:25
Please count me in with the atheists in the same quadrant. But I'm not that surprised that a true christian is left winged and libertarian, although by experience I know many more of the right winged and authoritarian so-called christian ones... |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 15:37
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Economic left/right -7.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -6.51 Seems accurate enough to me ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 17:17
I have discussed previously how I find it inexplicable that any Christian could have right-wing views and/or vote Republican/Conservative. What it says,hopefully,is that the people you mention are all basically decent human beings who are sympathetic to other people that are not as well off as they are.It means that our first thought is never "what is in it for me?" but "how will this impact others?" The only bit of that dreadful film "The Day After Tomorrow" that I like is the bit where Mexico has refused to accept any more immigrants/refugees from America, Think on that one all you Right-Wing Anti-Immigration Red Necks.. |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 18:31
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wow, i agree with you on something reed, how abou that! anti-immigration policies are so stupid. so much money wasted on what... preventing people from finding opportunity? whatever happened to "give me your tired, your hungry" anyway? ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 18:33
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Reed? What you takin' about Ian? |
Posted By: Sweetnighter
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 18:37
if there's any doubt that you're not reed, lets take a look at your profile:
i rest my case! ------------- I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:06
Danbo, you and I are pretty close, my score was: Economic left/right = 0.75 Social libertarian/authoritarian = -1.03
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Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:11
Well said, good for you!
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:22
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Wow, I expected more Americans to be taking this poll and posting well, +8s on economy and +4s on Authoratarian scale, but oh well... |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:27
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: -2.75 |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:36
You're more Groucho Marx than Karl,Garion.Though there are some stunning similarities
Garion............................................Karl Marx Seperated at birth??? |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:56
Sorry for my rough appearance but I have been sitting in a jail cell awaiting trial. Been wearing that same suit for a year now!!!
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 20:00
Those of us who've had some experience have a bit of a harder edge and have kinda figured out what works. It's great to believe in something, but keeping an eye out for pie in the sky, usually leads to a big bird dropping coming down to blur your vision. I prefer reality to pipe dreams. |
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Posted By: The-Bullet
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 20:00
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Has Reed risen from the ashes ------------- 
"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?" |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 20:11
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or crawled back out from under his stone? |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 20:16
| I think we should actually record all the results and try to average it out? Sound nice? |
Posted By: The-Bullet
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 20:23
no, that's the way we got Tony Blair  -------------
"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?" |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 13 2005 at 21:03
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Tony: You said, "I have discussed previously how I find it inexplicable that any Christian could have right-wing views and/or vote Republican/Conservative. What it says, hopefully, is that the people you mention are all basically decent human beings who are sympathetic to other people that are not as well off as they are. It means that our first thought is never 'what is in it for me?' but 'how will this impact others?'." In his book, "God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It," Rev. Jim Wallis asks, "When did Jesus become pro-war, pro-rich, pro-American and a selective moralist?" He points out that the agenda of the so-called "Religious Right" is "issue based" - and even then on only two or three issues: abortion, homosexuality (including gay marriage) and stem cell research (i.e., science vs. faith). And these are the only "moral" issues as defined by the "Religious Right." Yet Wallis points out that the Bible contains over 3,000 verses about poverty - more than any other single issue in the entire Scripture - which is the issue most spoken of by Jesus as well. So shouldn't poverty be a "moral issue?" The Scripture also admonishes us to be "guardians" of the earth - not rapers, pillagers and polluters, but guardians. So shouldn't the environment be a "moral issue?" And the list goes on. All I am really getting at is that I applaud and feel the need to underscore and emphasize your comment that "I find it inexplicable that any Christian could have right-wing views and/or vote Republican/Conservative" (or, at least, for that part of the R/C platform that is "controlled" by the agenda of the Religious Right or otherwise "anti-people"). Peace. |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 05:15
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Amen
------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Beau Heem
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 06:01
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 13:24
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Poverty is a moral issue. The people how carp on about having to pay up so that Welfare and Benefits can be paid to the needy are disgusting.And certainly not Christian. It is an easy option for me-only vote for political parties who want to stamp out poverty,help the needy and have a fair society.Any Christian who votes purely on the issue of reducing taxation needs to take a good long look at themselves.If that is what you feel strongly about then Ok-but dont be a hypocrite and profess to be a Christian. 
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Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 13:39
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Actually poverty is a social issue, not a moral one. Whether one is rich or poor has nothing to do with their religion. It's a bit like saying "I'm wealthy, therefore I'm a good Christian".
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 13:56
Moral has nothing to do with religion. We have the power and the means to stop poverty, the fact we don't do that says something about our moral values ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 14:28
Whatever happened to the camel and the needle...
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 17:23
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Well, nowadays when someone dies his possessions instantly become owned by the people in the will, so dead men are no longer rich! There's a way round every obstacle |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 17:32
I'm not clear over your analogy, however I am clear about who foot the bills. It's noble to want to help the less fortunate, that's why we have FICA in the U.S. England is a classic example of fifty years of Socialism, it doesn't work. The population is taxed to death with no relief in sight. How much of that tax goes to welfare? Has it resolved anything? No on the contrary, it's only engendered one generation after another living on the dole. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 17:42
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^ are you implying that capitalism (by comparison) is working? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:14
Utter rubbish! Are you trying to say that Britain has had 50 years of Socialist Government? Gleam-tell me how Capitalism is working for the most vulnerable in today's society.Tell me how it provides for the needy globally. The very rich had have it their own way for,well thousands of years.The rich had everything,everyone else were slaves.Feudalism,serfdom,slavery this is what happens when the rich go unchecked and unhindered.The Labour Party only came into power over the last 80 years or so in the UK and that is not long for a political system trying to dismantle a tradition of greed. Gleam your statement "England is a classic example of fifty years of Socialism, it doesn't work." and here I choose my words carefully, DISGUSTS ME! Even if you believe that Socialism cant work its principles are at least moral when compared with Capitalism.Dont you see Capitalism "works" because it is forced upon us as the system of choice of the most privileged-ie the people with the real power.These people will make damned sure socialism cant work.You shouldnt have to legislate "compassion" and "duty",they should be normal human desires. |
And do not make the mistake of thinking this country has not done well under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown-au contraire.
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:19
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I totally agree with Tony R. I am a Moderate socialist and I believe the same. Another fact: DID YOU KNOW THAT THE LABOUR PARTY MOVED FROM BEING MODERATE SOCIALISTS INTO BECOMING MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN 1970S CONSERVATIVES? England is not becoming more Liberal and socialist, but they are actually getting more conservative. |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:35
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Absolutely, 1) The U.S. GDP for 2003 (I don't have 2004 numbers) was $10,881,610,000,000 which is two and a half times greater than it's closest competitor Japan. You have to take into the account the huge advantage Japanese industry has because of their goverments subsidies, in addition to protectionist trade tariffs. 2) Nine out of the top ten brands in the world are American. As follows: First: Coca Cola Second: Microsoft Third: IBM Fourth: GE Fifth: Intel Sixth: Nokia Seventh: Disney Eigth: McDonalds Ninth: Marlboro Tenth: Mercedes 3) If you were to compare corporations along the same lines as countries (GDP), GM would rank 23, Walmart 25 (right behind Denmark), Exxon 26, Ford 27 and Chrysler would be number 28. I would say that capitalism is doing very well. This BTW while suffering through a recession, 9/11, the war in Afghanistan/Iraq and contributing to the Tsunami relief to the tune of $1 Billion dollars. Where do we find the time.
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Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:39
Sure capitalism is doing pretty well. I'm only worried about how well are doing people living in capitalist countries...
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:46
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Yep, exactly my point. Have you ever seen the poor in some of the more capitalistic Asian countries. Just terrible. The point for making a blended economic system is to ensure not many people will living in poverty. |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:47
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Tony: Yet another sincere "Bravo!" to you. Amazing how much we actually agree upon, given our often radically 180 degree beliefs. Gleam: You can't be serious (and I'm guessing you're not... Capitalism is "successful" for the few, but it is the single most "failed" economic system for the many. Peace. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:50
Yes,but Gleam-who is it working for? How much of that tremendous profit is coming your way?Why are there people still living on the streets? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:52
Whoops Maani ditto! We two really present an interesting conundrum! |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:54
Tony R, I stand by what I said, England has been in an economic tailspin long before the Tories under Thatcher came to power. No one wants to invest in the country because it doesn't make economic sense. Companies invest in countries with the purpose of earning a profit, that is what the stockholders expect. Let's be realistic, why do so many of your rock royalty become tax exiles? Concerning Socialism, I think it's a form of goverment which has yet to work, ergo my previous comments concerning Britain's economic plight. In reference to your last paragraph, Socialism works as long as some one else is footing the bill. Cool when your on the receiving end, not so cool if your paying the tax bill. The moral thing to do is for every individual to compete. The purpose of capitalism is wealth creation, this is achieved by creating jobs so that people can purchase goods and services. You find something morally wrong with that?
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:03
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Apparently you are the only one in the Universe who doesnt accept that Britain has one of the strongest,if not the strongest,economies in the world right now. As for "Socialism works if someone else is footing the bill"-who is this "someone else"?What is being paid for that you disagree with? Most of "my" rock "royalty" become tax exiles because they are selfish,ignorant,ungrateful,greedy bastards. Do not make the mistake of suggesting that I would do the same in their shoes....... |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:05
Manni, I'm very serious, I was asked if capitalism worked and I think the points I presented are self explanatory. We live in the wealthiest country in the world, enjoy the best standard of living (what other country could come up with something as self-indulgent as bulimia). The average American has the highest per capita income in the world. We buy so much crap that we have to rent storage place to stash the overflow from our garages (there's an industry that's exploded in the past ten years). One last point, if Americans are living a hand to mouth existence, then how is it that the companies I mention are doing so well. Someone must be doing the purchasing?
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:12
Now I know you are just yanking our chains.........either that or you need to re-read your "guide to what is awful about Capitalism" above. You are winding us up,aren't you?
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Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:16
I never contended that England wasn't an economic power, btw it's in contention with France for fourth place. In reference to my socialism comment, please tell me the effective tax rate for the average English worker. Let's break it down by distribution and you will see just how much goes to paying "the dole". Finally, I would never make the suggestion that you would act the same as "your rock royalty". However I would venture to say that once you have worked hard to earn something you become what us Republicans call "a conservative".
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Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:21
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I really hope you are not serious. OK, let's face it: you live in the wealthiest country in the world (not sure what Saudi Arabia has to say about that, but anyway...) You enjoy the best standard of living: who are "you"? I think there are millions living in your country well below the level of poverty. Let me tell you something: your country can provide today the very best treatments for cancer, maybe the very best in the whole world... did you know that here in Spain we have a survival rate to cancer much better than yours? Why? Because you get the best treatment available here, no matter how rich or how poor you are. Of course, if you are very very rich then you can go to the USA and pay for the very best treatments. And please, before saying again that bulimia is a self-indulgent condition you'd better get some information (and some respect for people suffering from this serious disease). Of course, the symptoms of bulimia will never be evident if you have nothing to chew... |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:27
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I am 43 years old,am a senior manger,earn a reasonable salary,own my own house and car.I am not rich by any measure but I pay my taxes and do not carp.I dont want to see my contributions frittered on quick-fix ventures but I definitely dont want them spent on tax breaks for the mega-rich. How dare you suggest "that once you have worked hard to earn something you become what us Republicans call "a conservative". Some of us do actually have integrity,you know.Two of the most disgusting platitudes I have ever had thrust at me-your one above and that other vacuous assessment that we all "give up atheism on our deathbed".
PS I was not arguing that Britain has a very large economy Re the Dole-Margeret Thatcher put millions on the dole in a matter of 18 months.What were these people supposed to do? Can you imagine how long and how much money it takes to re-employ millions of people? |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:44
Nacho, Once again, I am very serious. First, the wealth of a nation is first and foremost measured by it's economic diversity. Saudi Arabia has two industries; one is oil the other sand, mix them together you get sludge. Joking aside, it's not a good example for comparison purposes. Poverty as defined by the U.S. Census are persons earning below $9,000 of which there are nearly 35 million in the U.S. or 12% of the population. Take into consideration that 15 million of those are illegal immigrants repatriating that income back to their homeland, namely Mexico. Cheers to Spain if they have high survival rates for people suffering from cancer. Ido appreciate the concesion that you can get better treatment if you come to the States. Finally, I think you should read up on bulimia. The disease is brought on by repeated binging and vomiting in order to remain thin. This is primarily a female sickness which has more to do with self image than having access to a meal. That is why I call it self indulgent and haven't any simpathy for those who put themselves through it.
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Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:57
Tony, No one is questioning your integrity, I'm sure your an honest person and well meaning. If my comment offended you, I apologize. However, I meant what I said about being a conservative. I am self employed, pay my taxes and go on living. However, I try to retain as much as I can for myself and my family. As far as the other vacuous assessment, when W.C. Fields was on his deathbed, someone caught him reading a bible. When asked how someone with his reputation could be reading a bible at this late date, he replied "I'm looking for a loophole". In reference to Thatcher... we deserve the politicians we elect. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe she was elected twice. You should have known better.
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Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:59
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:59
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Gleam: you are a callous fool and should be ashamed of yourself. Your diatribe on bullimia is disgraceful. I hope everybody reads your observations so that they realise what a morally bankrupt and pathetic excuse for a human being you really are. or a very convincing wind-up merchant................................................
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 20:00
I didnt vote for her,I did know better. Have you got any more of this nonesense? |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 20:10
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[QUOTE=nacho
Sorry I'm not being too polite here, but you are an ignorant.
Sounds like the last refuge of someone who has run out of arguments. Now lets' see Spain... OH yes, the country that brought you... Los conquistadores (Francisco Pizarro, Hernan Cortes, Ponce de Leon and a cast of thousands bent on converting South America to Catholicism). what was their saying "A dios rogando y con el mazo dando". The Spanish inquisition (the rack or thumb screws, the garrote or dismemberment by four horses pulling on your extremities). That Torquemada guy was such a prankster. Let's not forget that bastion of justice and fairness for all, El generalisimo Franco! Please Nacho, give me the Spanish slant on humane treatment towards others.
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Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 20:48
Oh, sorry, it wasn't that I had run out of arguments, it was simply that from your previous post I didn't consider you were qualified to understand what a mental disease is and the differences between symptoms and causes. You even seem to consider that people with bulimia have voluntarily got it, so go figure! But really, I have to insist: you are an ignorant! Yes, the history of Spain is an ugly one. The only thing I can tell you is that I wasn't there. Please believe me, I'm not old enough to have met Mr. Torquemada, nor any of the conquerors. And I know this is much more difficult to believe, but I was only 11 when general Franco died, so I can swear I didn't support him. Actually, I hardly remember anything about that period. Now, I don't think you really want me to feel guilty about all this historical stuff, do you? After all, my forefathers left some indians alive! I don't think I can give you the "Spanish slant on humane treatment towards others": I'm only one among 40 millions, and I feel responsible only for my ideas and behaviour towards others. I'm quite happy looking around me, though. Are you? But I really don't get it, we were discussing capitalism and socialism here... have you run out of arguments? |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 21:06
Don't mind if we do, you were the one who decided to get offensive. |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 22:54
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Gleam: For the third time (!), I must agree with Tony. Either you are a top-notch leg-puller, or you are willfully ignorant or painfully naive. Your arguments are what I would expect from the Bushie neocons and their ilk. At very least, by turning everything into "statistics," you are completely ignoring - if not blatantly devaluing - the "human" issue. However, if you honestly and truly believe the tripe you are offering as arguments for capitalism, then your lack of humanity is beyond shocking. For the first time in almost two years on this site, I am speechless in the face of your cold and heartless arguments... Peace. |
Posted By: gleam
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 23:27
Manni, I will admit to a certain degree of leg-pulling, however I use facts to prove a point. Unfortunately they may not fit into other peoples view of how the world works. If you think that I am devaluating the "human" issue, your wrong that's not my intention. Maybe my delivery leaves much to be desired, however it's rooted in the realities of today's world. Not in something we wish it would be.
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: May 14 2005 at 23:39
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
, etc.)Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 05:58
So we should accept our lot and be grateful? The realities of todays's world are callous and morally bancrupt-we should just accept that and not work towards something better? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 06:03
We have a real working Socialist Government in the UK,Peter.What we dont have is enough real Socialist voters.The issue for the Labour Party is to make itself electable and defeat the Conservatives.A compromise is far better than the alternative believe me. |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 08:52
Your political compassEconomic Left/Right: -6.63
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| Left |
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Right | |
| Libertarian | |||
(Although I had some problems understanding some of the questions, I think this is a pretty acceptable sketch of where I stand)
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 09:12
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[
In reference to Thatcher... we deserve the politicians we elect. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe she was elected twice. You should have known better. [/QUOTE] You're wrong - the evil old harridan was elected three times, which beggars belief when you consider how badly the majority in this country fared under her government.
------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 09:49
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To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost.
------------- Billy Connolly Dream Theater Terry Gilliam Hagen Quartet Jethro Tull Mike Keneally |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 14:31
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Hey, lay off poor Gleam- I don't agree with almost everything he says, but he debates well and is obviously in the ideological minority here. I'd probably be a lot likely to be more offensive if I was in his corner. In a way, he's correct- capitalism does succeed more consistently for capitalists than socialism does for socialists. The difference being, of course, that capitalism is only focused on generating wealth while socialism has a much wider scope, providing for the health and welfare of everyone. It's always easier to look out for yourself than try to make the world a better place. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 17:52
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EXACTLY! Instead of sticking to your systems, think of what would make the world better and we have already confirmed that a Thatcher- run country would be nothing short of a disaster. *cough Mr Bush cough* |
Posted By: illustrated
Date Posted: May 15 2005 at 17:54
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Economic Left/Right: -4.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.59 |