Why did you reject Within Temptation?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60541
Printed Date: February 16 2025 at 09:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Why did you reject Within Temptation?
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Subject: Why did you reject Within Temptation?
Date Posted: August 17 2009 at 23:49
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I checked your exhaustive list here:
http://progfreak.com/home/progarchives?path=overview/atoz/z - http://progfreak.com/home/progarchives?path=overview/atoz/z
And it was interesting how you rejected Within Temptation - a band I have recently encountered and they are so much like other female symphonic metal bands such as Epica, Nightwish and After Forever, I was wondering why were they rejected?
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.monkeymusic.at/within_temptation/band3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gogirlcafe.jennyo.net/%3Ftag%3Dfun&usg=__srtDpGKVQfbhq8uxrnjG5FD2o7g=&h=1417&w=1672&sz=227&hl=en&start=16&sig2=lOxB65uiZAA6R6di6f_j7g&tbnid=9c0X_bE_YiIwLM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwithin%2Btemptation%2Bband%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den&ei=cDKKSo3-Do-VkAXt0q0y">
 What is the difference?
Was there a specific reason?
In my opinion they are definitely prog in some way as the music is thematic, blends symphony with metal and even the album covers have prog related elements. The Black Symphony screams prog!
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://barrydean.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/within-temptation_the-heart-of-everything.jpg&imgrefurl=http://barrydean.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/within-temptation-the-heart-of-everything/&usg=__jpI1pD-0l8RTR5_S0MTFUhy0zKI=&h=496&w=500&sz=36&hl=en&start=19&sig2=IpfZOSriLsL2RnXjL0X7CA&tbnid=NSVEOCaXjsfYTM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwithin%2Btemptation%2Bband%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den&ei=cDKKSo3-Do-VkAXt0q0y">
 They were featured in the Classic Rock Presents Prog magazine as prog and they are hailed as a prog bands on some websites.
Perhaps you could clear this up as I would definitely put them in the same category as Epica, Nightwish and After Forever which are all prog as you have specified.
 ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 00:24
| Absolutely agree, one of my favourite gothic metal bands. And I would place them way over the other 3 bands you mentioned. But then, I am not sure the other bands should be listed either... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 00:28
| Because the votes were tallied and there was more "no"s than "yes"es. Simple math here people. |
Posted By: Plankowner
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 00:37
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You ok Mike? |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 01:06
I agree with the last sentence which I have highlighted with purple text colour. I think there is a general consensus that those bands probably shouldnīt have been added in the first place. Some will think otherwise of course but itīs my assumption that it is a general consensus. But I can see it from the point of view of the one who suggests Within Temptation though. The X and Y factor is definitely hard to come around in cases like these but we just have to accept that each artist is evaluated on their own merits and not because they have striking similarities with already included artists. A bitter pill to swallow sometimes. I know the feeling. Iīve swallowed a couple myself throughout my time here on PA but generally I think the system works pretty well. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
cobb2 wrote:Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 01:38
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^ if one makes claims like that I would always be interested in "why". You seem to think that Within Temptation is more Prog than Epica - I wonder whether you know all the albums by those two bands? Ok, I think it makes sense to mention two things here which may be important: 1. Nightwish had been on this website long before the prog metal team was founded. Had they been discussed for addition at the same time as Within Temptation, my guess is that they would have been rejected as well. 2. The decision to reject Within Temptation was made long before Black Symphony was released. To be honest, I haven't heard it ... but if it does feature a successful blend of orchestra and (metal) band, then I think they should be added. 3. In order to understand why bands are here it always makes sense to look at their most progressive output. Someone might have heard the last two albums of After Forever and wonder why they're here - Invisible Circles is the album to listen to. With Epica you'd have to listen to the last two releases (and Score, a 100% classical film score like album). ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 13:28
| I don't believe they have been proposed for Prog related yet.. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 19:35
All these comments posted here thus far are valid in some way but especially the above quote.
There seems to be an inconsistency in rating what should and what should not be included in the archives here. Within Temptation is a prog band in as many ways that Epica is prog due to the subgenre of music that is female lead operatic, symphonic, blending metal and orchestra and features a strange lyrical and thematic content that fits within the prog label.
I do not like labelling either but if theres a subgenre within prog that is 'symphonic metal' (featuring a female artist on lead vocals) then these bands must be included as they are all in this category - I speak of Epica, Nightwish, After Forever and er.... Within Temptation.
It is pure logic, not mathematical, to assume that Within Temptation is in this category therefore as prog as the rest. At least include them as prog related - listen to Black Symphony and tell me that's not prog! -------------
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Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 22:19
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In 95% of the cases the team that originally evaluated a band proposes them to another genre/section when rejected. I see no indication of a further proposition but it may happen in the near future...
------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: August 18 2009 at 22:45
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Thanks.
I think it is worth considering in the future.
I noticed Sunn O))) finally got recognition too! They are prog - i don't like them but there's no denying the way they play is prog. -------------
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Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:17
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WHAT?! You based it on a freaking vote?! What are you? Retards? Listen, it's clear that someone here lacks a proper understanding of what prog.-rock is (which btw is quite outrageous for a site calling themselves www.progarchives.com). While Nightwish is definately NOT prog.-rock, Within Temptation undoubtfully is. I, btw, don't agree to them being very similar; they're playing in two quite different genres for crying out loud! When all that's out of my mind, I think Within Temptation fits better into the "Symphonic Prog.-Rock" genre than the Metal one, but that's just my opinion anyways... |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:19
Someone here definitely lacks a proper understanding of how to behave in a public space. 
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Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:21
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Oh, you actually have a subgenre called "symphonic metal prog.-rock", good gracious, that's got to be made for Within Temptation, I mean seriously have you guys even listened to any of their recent albums, if so then that only tells something about your own ignorance and incompetence. |
Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:26
I don't really care about what you think of my behaviour, because: 1. It's completely irrelevant to the subject. 2. I have a right to be a little bit angry about something as tragical as this. 3. To be heard, you sometimes have to scream out aloud instead of just posting some stupid submessage "hello, could you please put up WT?" As if they'd even consider it then, especially when it's already been up for voting once. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:31
Actually here on PA it's the complete opposite on all three counts. You've just made your cause look bad, now that is what I'd call... whatever names you've called. 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:34
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Keep it civil please. Insulting and abusive statements do not further your cause, indeed they simply alienate people towards you.
We are proud of having a friendly and enjoyable site here, you're welcome to stick around if you can go along with that.
As mentioned before, we have not been asked to consider them for prog related yet.....
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:35
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Actually, you'll have a better chance of succeeding by being polite. Think about it. How do you react to people whose first contact with you is hostility? You may be right about the subject, I don't know, I've rarely heard them. But have a civil conversation please. Instead of calling them incompetent, which is dead wrong btw, make your case clearly and with detail about why you feel they belong. If you behave well, you'll be heard. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:44
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Well, sorry to tell you then, but isn't this some kind of meeting spot for prog.-fans? If you absolutely want me to start yapping then I actually have a lot more complaints about absurdities on this site. Bands like for instance Mew and Black Sabbath aren't prog. If you had asked them personally, I bet they'd say no, I mean come on, Mew isn't even rock, I like their music quite alot, but it's pop-music of the same genre as Coldplay. And btw, those three counts doesn't have anything to do with PA, but with the world wide web in general, and thereby thay also apply to this site. The last count is a small trick called a psychological factor, nr. 1 is true, no matter how much you try to deny it, and about nr. 2 there is no law against that, and even if I get banned I don't even have to get a new email adress to create a new account. Believe me, I can be quite persistent. |
Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:45
| ok, I guess I'll be a little more considerate in the future... |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:48
I wish Toto was in PA but they have been rejected 12 times 
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Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:50
That isn't the reason why I was acting a little rude, it's to be noticed. To use your own words, think about it: Who mostly gets what they want in the world? Those who whines the most and loudest. You want examples? Check the politics, every single case there is an outcome of this psychological factor. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:51
Iīm a bit losfer words here.  . Well Iīll say one thing. A simple please might do the trick ( and some arguments why you feel Within Tempation should be regarded as a progressive act). Calling the team ignorent and imcompetent wonīt help much. Now you got the silk hand from me. Iīm not sure other members of the team will be as forgiving.------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: NaughtyShrink
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:51
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Toto were never very progressive... Although neither are Nightwish or Mew... Whatever. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 10:54
| I'll close this thread to let things cool off meanwhile. PM me if anyone wants it re-opened. |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 11:03
Imagine if the team votes went 5-5 when deciding the band's eligibility and they had to make a final decision. Now would they think "oh let's take them in because that one dude was so admirably persistent" or "let's not take them, if only to annoy that one whiny loudmouth ass"? This is just a hypothetical situation with no contact with this case or the people involved. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 11:05
Certainly some truth to that, but you're going to find PA to be an exception, I predict. If you are respectful and make a solid case (which we're still waiting for), you'll be heard. If you want to go down the muddy road, you'll get no where fast. I sense you could go either way here. Make the right choice  ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 11:05
I've never been involved with the Prog Metal team, but it's commonly not that simple for teams. Progfreak provides a record of votes, but team members commonly discuss and debate potential additions before recording their votes at progfreak. Something to bear in mind, though, is that team members often do not have access to all the musical material and it is not that uncommon for bands to be re-evaluated (but there are so many evaluations and so much work being done such as preparing additions that being asked to re-evaluate can be onerous and, well, not a joyful task). A team like Prog Metal deals with a lot of proposals, and does a lot of work for the site, and obviously don't have unlimited funds to buy albums or unlimited time to listen to albums (it's voluntary work and can be both very time-consuming and expensive for the individuals). It's saddening that people don't appreciate the time and effort people put into this. They gain nothing personal from having an album added or excluded, but try to do their best for the site and community. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 07:22
| The 'Prog Related' genre is misnamed anyway and should be renamed to 'Stuff not even remotely Prog but some of us like it anyway, so there!'. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 08:05
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I think thatīs a slightly disrespectful way of putting it, but the prog-related definition should probably point out that the genre is only for artists that have been greatly influential on progressive rock. Not for artists who are slightly influenced by progressive rock or have some lose relation to progressive rock.
The below lines are copy/ pasted directly from the definition:
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, AND
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, AND - Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog. If I were to decide I would delete the first and the second point and only keep the middle one. That way no one would misunderstand that Prog-related is only for artists who have been musically influential on progressive rock. This is just my opinion of course. Feel free to form your own. If my interpretation is the interpretation that is generally considered ( by the admins who control the Prog-related sub) the correct one those changes to the definition would be greatly appreciated. Itīs the most common conclusion people come to when the artists they suggest are rejected in another genre. If I canīt get my artist included in this or that sub Iīll suggest them for Prog-related. People should be left with no doubt of what Prog-related means. The definition is a bit vague as it is now and prone to a lot of misunderstanding and even worse a lot of frustration. Personally I donīt see why an act such as Within Temptation should be considered for the Prog-related genre. They havenīt been influential on the progressive rock/ metal genre. They are a symphonic metal/ rock act that might or might not qualify for the progressive metal sub, but calling them influential on the progressive rock/ metal genre wouldnīt be my choice of words. ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 11:00
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''Why did you reject Within Temptation?''
Well, because we listened to them, and decided that they weren't fit for this site. Simple enough explanation? Now I'm just waiting for the ''Why did you reject Toto'' thread to show up next. Hey, this method of complaining repeatedly worked to get Metallica added, so why not?   Actually, I don't mind Metallica being here, so obviously I'm joking around. |
Posted By: MontrealRick
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 11:34
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I think a new vote is in order. ------------- Long live Prog!!! |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 11:49
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Nooooooooooooo
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 11:56
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There has to be a justifiable reason for re-evaluating a band, normally through new material being available. Simply insisting on a re-vote until a pass is achieved is not going to work. Also, since this band has previously been rejected they now qualify as a "Controversial Band" which means that any subsequent vote by the PMT has to be unanimous (ie all active members must vote and all must vote "yes" for them to be accepted). ------------- What? |
Posted By: MontrealRick
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:06
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I see...too contraversial for my taste. ------------- Long live Prog!!! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:08
^ I don't see how "your taste" has anything to do with it  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:36
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Well, when my pal MontrealRick thinks the decision merits rethinking I'm more apt to listen to him than many others with similar issues. Someone who's been as active in the world of prog for so many years as he has kinda tends to get my attention when speaking up ;-) That is a personal point of view though. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 12:41
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^ that isn't what I meant Olav. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 13:57
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I don't know Within Temptation unless for one or two songs, and am not too fond of those female-fronted, symphonic metal bands (regardless of whether they are prog or not - just a question of personal taste). However, I'd like to point out that they are featured in # 4 of Classic Rock presents Prog (a magazine that seems to have been quite successful, seen as has already reached # 5, and is set to continue), as well as on other prog websites (DPRP and Sea of Tranquility come to mind). As I wrote last week somewhere in the CZ, people who like prog use more than one resource (I know I do), and they're bound to see bands elsewhere that are not featured here, and wonder. However, with the so many controversial additions we have had over the years, we cannot claim this is due to a purist approach to prog - therefore, we might end up coming across as a 'neither fish nor fowl' kind of thing, and lose a lot of our hard-won credibility. Just my two cents... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:04
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sort of makes the 'archive' in the site name look stupid doesn't it.... for all the fear of driving people away with 'dubious' additions... the site should REALLY fear driving people away for what doesn't get added.... and being a joke of a site at that. The list is growing of 'recognized' prog bands that this site has not.. or will not add.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:09
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No disrespect intended Dean, I guess I should have considered my phrasing better in this matter. I apologize. ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:12
Within Temptation are only "controverisal" because they have been rejected before and for no other reason:
(CZ-area http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51908 - thread ) ------------- What? |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:22
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Agreed. Serious suggestion guys (and girl). ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:23
The problem is, unlike My Dying Bride, WT were rejected twice, by two different versions of the team, and without any positive votes. That would make re-evaluation impossible, I'm afraid . |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:32
And how many times was Metallica, or Iron Maiden rejected ? Just asking, guessing they were (are) controversial additions. I'm not for WT inclusion, but sometimes, good bands are rejected, because of fear that apple (they) would spoil the basket (archives). I for example have two bands that I posted in this section recently. By my opinion, 1st is without doubt prog and second should be prog, http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63809 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63809 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64406 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64406 But nobody, or almost nobody is replying here, because 1)not so many people go here 2)if somebody goes here, they checks only well known names (including controversial). It's hard work, but directing enthusiasm from those interested in adding these band can help it. Writing bio, adding albums, let enthusiastic ones do it and we're done with this problem :-) ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:37
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^ you only posted the Xover suggestion yesterday Marty, you'll have to give us a better chance than that to ignore you
Ironing Maiden and Metalililica are not relevant. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 14:54
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Iron Maiden and Metallica were never unanimously rejected in the same way as Within Temptation. I am more familiar with the Maiden case, since I was the one who added them to Prog-Related after getting the green light from the rest of the Admin Team (I was also Admin at the time). If you want to see how the PMT voted on either band, go to www.progfreak.com, and look for the Metal chart. They were voted for Prog-Related by the majority of the then-members of the team, and I can tell you that at least one of the current members of the PMT would be in favour of having them in PM. Metallica, on the other hand, had at least one Yes vote for PM, and one for PR - Within Temptation have NOTHING but negative votes. |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 15:07
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Hey R & D, I'm myself struggling with what's and what is not prog, but still, some bands simply doesn't add up. I suppose thatĻs what some of anti-WT thinks. You're right Dean, it's just a day, but when I slowly watched it to slide into oblivion (second page and further), I wondered, when somebody will post a post. Not sure whether they actually are Crossover. After 1st Cd from Iron Maiden, I'm gonna listen to them again.
And goon name twist, let me think of something, NightSHWISH, or METELICE (meaning bad weather in Czech) oops, my newbie post in CZ thread ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 15:27
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Marty, as a collab, you have an advantage because you can mention your suggestions, as well as helping with other people's that you pick up on, in the team threads (aside from just bumping threads). With the general membership, it's a good idea to PM a team member if something gets missed. I'm sporadic, but often try to listen to suggestions and alert teams about them. Incidentally, I do often yearn to discuss and share impressions of music with people rather than just have them added to the charts and voted on (discussing the music with people is the part of the process I enjoy). And sometimes I'm unsure,especially with "out of the typical prog box" "left-of--field" suggestions, and want to put the music to the general public before taking it to a specific team. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 16:00
Marty, Iron Maiden were not added to Prog-Related because of their first album, but rather on the strength of albums like Somewhere In Time, Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (a concept) and their last three studio efforts. As much as I like Maiden's first two albums (though I am not a big fan of their original singer, Paul Di Anno), there is not a whole lot of prog-relatedness to be found there. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 16:02
Anyone who professes to know what is Prog and what is not is probably wrong and I'd never trust anyone who claims to be an expert because the genre is so vast once you start looking at all the subgenres and styles of music that appear to fit the brief that no one can possibly be an expert on every nuance.
We all have our own idea of what Prog is based on experience of listening to hours of music that other people called Prog and to lots of music that people haven't called Prog and developing our own thoughts and ideas from there.
So there will be some bands that don't add up because the formula that one person uses will be different to the next persons. This is noticable in the extreme subgenres (Avant-Prog, Tech/Extreme Metal, Prog Electronic and JR/F) where the "numbers" do not come from standard Prog, or even standard popular music (rock/metal/jazz/folk/etc.). This is were genre teams are useful because they are pooling their personal formulas of what Prog is to produce a composite formula, so one individual view does not rule and the result is a consensus.
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 16:09
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I KNOW WHAT PROG IS. It is good.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 16:15
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To paraphrase Justice Stewart "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["prog"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I hear it, and the band involved in this case is not that."
------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 16:17
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Knowing what prog is isn't difficult. Most people active here have rather strong views about that. Reaching a consensus about what prog is though - now that's another case entirely. Even the Gordian Knot is easier to solve than to make a universal definition on prog that everyone would agree to. Hell, even one agreed upon by a slight majority would be an achivement up there along with the discovery of fire, the invention of the wheel and sending people to the moon ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 17 2010 at 16:53
Hey hey Raff, let's stop here. We didn't understand each other. Again, because I've said many things at once in one sentence, but that's me :-) I meant that: 1)I'm not sure whether RE-VO are Crossover 2)I'm right now listening Iron Maiden's first CD (as I thought it's worth mentioning, as long as we're talking about them, but nothing more 3)I'm going to listen again RE-VO to determine, whether my claim about Crossover was right But thank you anyway, all my life I just knew 2 minutes and recently get to know 666. But now here I am, listening Iron Maiden's first two albums and wondering, what's so prog about them. No no, don't take me bad here again, I'm just saying thank you. Whew, it's hard for me to make myself clear all the time. I wonder if others has these problems too :-) Being native speaker helps, but hell, you're Italian and I have no problems understanding you. Gotta think about this. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |