All:

As you have undoubtedly noticed, as a result of the "uproar," the subgenre categories are gone; all have been subsumed into "Prog Music Lounge," which will remain the general area for prog music-related discussions.

Personally (i.e., not representing Max, Rony or the site), I think most of you were having a completely understandable "knee-jerk" reaction, and would have gotten used to the new categories.  Indeed, one of the reasons we did that was because, based on your comments, the majority of you felt that there were too many threads in the old "Main Discussions" category, which meant that threads created in the morning were already on Page 2 by the evening.  As well, many members commented that there were too many prog metal threads, relegating all the other threads to the bottom of Page 1, or to Page 2.

Apparently, our attempt to correct these problems (among other things) only led to new ones.  Two cliches come to mind: "The grass is always greener on the other side," and "You can't always get what you want."  Or, to mis-paraphrase Abe Lincoln: "You can satisfy some of the members all of the time, and all of the members some of the time, but you can't satisfy all of the members all of the time."  Having gone back to the "old" way at your strong request, we hope we will not hear complaints about threads disappearing to the nether regions too quickly, or too many prog-metal threads in "Prog Music Lounge."  We kept all the other features, since no one seemed to have any problem with them, and, indeed, many of you expressed support for them.

As noted in my previous announcement, we realize that there may be even more "tweaking" to be done, and we welcome all comments and suggestions in that regard.

Now, to quickly update the main points of the original site-use primer:

1.  "Prog Music Lounge" is for discussions regarding prog music.

2.  "Prog Polls" is for serious polls regarding prog music-related topics.

3.  "Non-Music Prog Lounge" is for discussions on non-music - but prog-related - topics such as lyrics, art, books, album covers, films, etc.

4.  "Welcome Newbies" is for new members to introduce themselves, and let us know what you listen to, and whether we can help "expand" your prog listening.

5.  "Polls" (under "Assorted") is for non-music-related polls of all types.

6.  "Non-Prog Music" is for discussions about classical, country, classic rock, rap - i.e., any genre, band or album not included on the site.  Please do not start these threads in "Main Discussions" or "Discussions Not Related to Music."

7.  "Just For Fun" is for all trivia games, jokes, riddles, etc.  Please do not start these threads in "Discussions Not Related to Music."

8.  "Get the Word Out" is for promoting yourself and your music.

9.  "Bands and Albums" is for all suggestions for adding new groups or albums to the site.  Please do not start these threads in "Prog Music Lounge" or "Discussions Not Related to Music."

As you get more comfortable with the site, let us know how you find it, and what you think still needs "tweaking."  Those comments and suggestions should go in "Forums and General" (under "Suggestions & News").

We hope that those of you who had smoke coming out of your ears will take a few deep breaths (and a pint or two?), and relax again.

Peace.

Maani
On behalf of the Admin Group

Maani wrote:

Personally (i.e., not representing Max, Rony or the site), I think most of you were having a completely understandable "knee-jerk" reaction, and would have gotten used to the new categories.  Indeed, one of the reasons we did that was because, based on your comments, the majority of you felt that there were too many threads in the old "Main Discussions" category, which meant that threads created in the morning were already on Page 2 by the evening.  As well, many members commented that there were too many prog metal threads, relegating all the other threads to the bottom of Page 1, or to Page 2.

Hey Maani, the idea of taking some of the threads from the overcrowded Main Discussion was good, the problem was the idea of completely eliminating the prog' lounge.

Both systems well could have coexisted (As I said in my post) but honestly I still prefer the return to the original system because we can discuss and learn of more bands without having to jump from one sub-gender to another.

Anyway, thanks for your effort in making this place better and listening us.

Iván

I agree with Ivan on that.  Not only for us, the members who have been here a while, but what about newbies who want to talk about their bands and couldn't find the right discusion forum? I had never really paid attention to all the labels because I like so many different things and they are all prog to me.    There are a lot of bands that cross genres on every album. Would it just be a whim where they were placed? Geese, I know all three of you are knowledgeable  but you can't have time to listen to every band here not to mention the new ones being requested for additon. 

Thanks for all your efforts though.I

That was a horrible desicion to remove the subgenre forums. What possible harm could the subgenres cause, as long as the main prog forum remains open for anything prog? There's no logic or even a reason for bringing them down other than: "by strong requests".

What about just letting all the posts/threads that are posted in the subgenre forums also be visible in the main forum? Problem solved, everyone is happy. Many other game and movie forums around the net uses this system.

Cygnus:

Your wish has been granted!

Peace.

geezer wrote: I actually liked the new changes.  The main problem for me is that there is very, very much prog metal threads. How about two lounges: "Progressive Rock Lounge" "Progressive Metal Lounge" This change would make a huge difference. Just a suggestion...

My thoughts exactly.  That way, the people who listen to progressive metal just because it is metal, and not because it is progressive can be seperate from the people who listen to progressive rock because it is progressive.  We'll have less ELP haters on our hands that way, and less people who would wear a Pink Floyd t-shirt one day and a Slayer t-shirt the next.  These people don't seem to get along well with the people who wear a Pink Floyd t-shirt because they were actually at the corresponding show.

Agree with Tuxon, but I might add something:

This is a discussion forum, not only for fans and experts of a determined band or genre, but for everybody to learn, if there were only subgenre divisons and not a prog lounge, subgenre sections will become to technicall and complex  for a normal use, I assure you I would never post or visit Zeuhl or Prog Metal, but now I have the chance to give my opinion and even whine sometimes.

Also for example Prog Metal section would turn into a Dream Theater fan club, but if all prog' is in one section, we all have the chance to read and even contribute to a thread about Symphony X or Fantomas without having to deal only with experts of the genre and dig through 150 threads about DT which is almost the exclusive band mentioned in that genre,

The way the Forum is now gives everybody the chance to learn more and to allows the participation of all members.

Iván

Joren wrote: Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard?

A few problems with that, Joren;

1) If people don't know too much about a particular subgenre, they are less likely to visit a separate forum on the topic than investigate an ongoing thread on it in a single main forum. The willingness to learn is not enough.

2) No-one comes here principally to learn, surely? I would have thought that most people come here to have a good time and discuss prog music in all its forms.

3) Subdividing Prog into subgenres is divisive. It's bad enough as it stands, without enforcing some kind of artificial additional subdivisions.

4) No-one agrees on what prog is, let alone the subgenres! You might be clear in your own mind what the subgenres are - but I bet I'd find reasons to disagree...

Joren wrote: Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard?

If I want to "learn" about a band or type of prog,I go to the reviews section or the Featured CD Area  of the forum....

I go on the forum to discuss prog music in general,but above all else,to have FUN !

People like DallasBryan are very knowledgable but it is the preachy nature of those posts that put me off !

If I want to "learn" about a band or type of prog,I go to the reviews section or the Featured CD Area  of the forum.... I go on the forum to discuss prog music in general,but above all else,to have FUN ! People like DallasBryan are very knowledgable but it is the preachy nature of those posts that put me off !

I started with Internet around 98 or 99, and by that time I only knew about 10 or 20 progressive bands at the most.

I joined at least 10 forums since them and learned about more than 100 bands. It's true that reviews and Prog' enciclopedias help a lot, but in my case a healthy discusion of two or more experts about a determined band can teach me a lot.

For example, I heard Dallas Bryan talking about DUN-Eros and instantly searched for a couple of songs, now I'm waiting for my CD that I bought last week.

It's also a fact that I come to the forums to have fun.

Joren wrote:

Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenre sub forums that you know little about! Is it that hard?

No it's not hard Joren, but it's human that you'll visit much more a forum about the genre that you like most, in my case 90% of my visits will be to the Symphonic forum and I'm sure that would almost never visit a Zeuhl forum for example.

Iván

Tony R wrote: Joren wrote: Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? If I want to "learn" about a band or type of prog,I go to the reviews section or the Featured CD Area  of the forum.... I go on the forum to discuss prog music in general,but above all else,to have FUN ! People like DallasBryan are very knowledgable but it is the preachy nature of those posts that put me off !

DallasBryan, Dick Heath, Phillippe and the rest of you who present all these obscure bands here - PLEASE don't get any less 'preachy'! Keep those whose recognition is long overdue coming! I really appreciate what you do. 

FloydWright wrote: Syntharachnid wrote: My thoughts exactly. That way, the people who listen to progressive metal just because it is metal, and not because it is progressive can be seperate from the people who listen to progressive rock because it is progressive. We'll have less ELP haters on our hands that way, and less people who would wear a Pink Floyd t-shirt one day and a Slayer t-shirt the next. These people don't seem to get along well with the people who wear a Pink Floyd t-shirt because they were actually at the corresponding show. Ahem, aren't we stereotyping a little bit? First off, who says all the ELP haters come from the prog-metal group? As for me, I can't give an opinion of ELP because I've never heard any. Not sure I even want to, though, seeing the behavior that surrounds it on both the pro and con side. I have ENOUGH trouble just from being of an "in-between" opinion on Dream Theater! Who says all prog-metallers listen to it JUST because it's metal and don't care about the progressive element whatsoever? Certainly untrue for me! I started with Pink Floyd but really found my prog-niche with prog metal. I listen to it for BOTH reasons. With metal I pretty much stick to prog and power. And what's wrong with wearing a Pink Floyd shirt one day and (in my case) a Killswitch Engage shirt the next? It doesn't make me an automatic idiot or jerk or whatever. And it's not like I do it just for looking cool...I genuinely like both styles, and I can hold my own just fine with a bunch of Floyd fans. And did it not occur to you that a LOT of people are quite simply too young to have seen a Floyd show? And that's certainly not their fault...that's really thanks to the band's inaction and don't-give-a-rip attitude. But just because I am young, it doesn't mean I don't know my stuff and cannot appreciate the music. PF came first. Then some other prog...then metal. This is why I use a Floydian name and a metal avatar, because I genuinely like and appreciate both. Please, do not broadbrush people; this really drives me up the wall. Would you like me to broadbrush all Pink Floyd fans as stoners when I know very well that's not the case? I think we should all keep our stereotypes to ourselves. It's getting REALLY old and makes this forum very unpleasant for a lot of people.

Apologies, sombody has already set me straight in another thread.  Just so that you know, I'm only fourteen myself, and have never seen a Pink Floyd show.  I justified my comment by thinking to myself "Hey, I can say that, because I don't wear Floyd t-shirts!"

All the same, that last post was very wrong of me.

Manunkind:

I second that emotion!!

Peace.

maani wrote: Manunkind: I second that emotion!! Peace.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Dallasbryan's "heart is not in the right place" just that his methods are rather over-bearing.I hope I made my peace with him long ago,after I realised his true purpose
Dallas and Heathy are wonderfully knowledgeable and are an asset and a credit to the forum.

Certif1ed wrote: Joren wrote: Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? A few problems with that, Joren; 1) If people don't know too much about a particular subgenre, they are less likely to visit a separate forum on the topic than investigate an ongoing thread on it in a single main forum. The willingness to learn is not enough. 2) No-one comes here principally to learn, surely? I would have thought that most people come here to have a good time and discuss prog music in all its forms. 3) Subdividing Prog into subgenres is divisive. It's bad enough as it stands, without enforcing some kind of artificial additional subdivisions. 4) No-one agrees on what prog is, let alone the subgenres! You might be clear in your own mind what the subgenres are - but I bet I'd find reasons to disagree...

1) If the willingness to learn is not enough to make a little effort, then they shouldn't. I'm lazy, and even I am willing to get used to a new model.

2) Yes, and with a subdivision in subgenres, they can easily navigate to their favourite style

3,4) you can check the subdivision used on the homepage. In a few days, you'll be used to the subdivision we use here. No big deal.

So, what's the problem?

tuxon wrote: flowerchild wrote: What is the "but" for???? sit on it

 Funniest replay ever, thanks

Litl wrote: Throw in my vote (if that's what we're doing here) for putting prog metal in its own lounge.  I think it is more in its own field than any other of the subgenres and fewer people make the jump between.

Krautrock is more in its own field I think, or maybe Zeuhl.