People's problems with growling
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Topic: People's problems with growling
Posted By: topofsm
Subject: People's problems with growling
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:11
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As a fan of metal, it's basically a given that I listen to music with harsh vocals. Growling, screaming, shreiking, shouting, pig squeals, it's all there. For the general public, it's very hard to stomach, which is very understandable. I really don't care if people don't like harsh vocals, to each their own.
But what really irks me is how people say it's an easy way out. I find proper growls to be some of the most difficult sounds to produce. I sing in choirs, and made regional choir, and was a lead role in a spring musical this year, so I know how to sing, but growls is something I have yet to master. Every time I try I know I'm doing it wrong because it bothers my throat so I immediately stop.
Second, It doesn't sound like an excuse not to write a melody. You cannot achieve a brutal timbre with the voice by singing, simple as that. Do people think that snare, cymbals, triangle, gong, bass drums, castanets, tambourine, or wood blocks in symphonic or classical music is an excuse to have more sound without melody? I simply wouldn't think so.
As a vocal style, growls are hard to appreciate and will never be enjoyed by the majority. But it should be generally understood that they are difficult to pull off. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:23
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My main issue with them is that I can't understand what the singer is trying to say when he is growling.
Perhaps its because I favor instrumental music to that with lyrics, but I view lyrics as a bonus to any song. However, if I can't understand what is being said it takes whatever extra the lyrics give me away. And, for me, it really doesn't add anything to the song. I rather have some electronic equipment or an instrument make brutal timbres. But again, I prefer the instrumental side. (And I'm not a real metal head either) Now if you just have a voice making all sorts of various sounds thats another story.
Having said that, I don't discount growling. Its a viable augmentation to the human voice that could give a song a different feel. Of course if its everywhere things could get a bit...stagnant and/or monotonous for my tastes. Moderation is the key for me. (Actually its probably more variety is the key for me...but...)
And its way better than that metalcore style screaming.  ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:27
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I think for a lot of people, if someone growls, it must means they can't actually sing or carry a tune, and therefore shows lack of talent. This is sometimes true, however even when someone cannot sing 'properly', the growling noise as you said takes a lot of talent and/or skill in its own right. I had a stepfather once who shared this false belief that all growlers couldn't sing, so I popped in an Opeth CD for him to listen to, and boy was he shocked when I told him it was the same singer on both songs (One soft and one heavy).  |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:29
This argument has never made sense to me. Can you honestly understand everything traditional singers are saying when you first listen to their music? I think not. Especially the older 'classic' stuff; sounds like they are singing into a pillow. |
Man With Hat wrote:Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:38
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Saying that growlers only growl because they can't carry a tune isn't a valid criticism of growling. Gilmour has admitted that his technical limitations forced him to solo a certain way, however his playing remains fantastic regardless of the fact that certain more difficult techniques are not available to him. I think people have a problem with it just because they have a problem with change in general. I think it's particularly worse in vocals than in other aspects of music because singing tends to be something everyone does from a very early age and become incredibly familiar with. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:45
| The sooner we stop looking at growling and singing as the same thing, the better off everybody will be. They are totally different styles of vocalizing. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 18:59
I here you man. I get that all the time, and growling is just as hard as singing. Similar technique actually. I can growl myself (or at least I think I can) and it's now taken me about 6 months to get a decent sound, and yet I still haven't mastered it. You also get different pitches of growls, i.e. tenor, bass and the occassional alto. Apparently I'm a bass, which I'm more than happy about because now I can growl along to Nile, which is better than sex 
I always thought of grwoling as a percussive musical device. It's not all entirely rhythm based either. Growling does have pitch, look at what Mikael Akerfeldt does with his voice in Demon Of The Fall. Then again, this whole thing is an age old prejudice. Ever wondered why ignorant musicians make jokes about drums not being a real instrument? Same with growls. We will always have those people though. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:02
Wouldn't agree with this. It's rare, and it's subtler, but it does happen. Peter Hammill's vocals on Arrow or Modern, for instance, have an incredibly raw and aggressive sound, and yet the melody and nuances in them are plain to hear. Francesca di Giacomo's vocals on Miserere Alla Storia are another such example.
I don't question the technical requirements of growling (and even to my relatively apathetic ears, there are some whose growls seem to work much better on a musical level, or at least which feel more natural than others), nor do I particularly mind it. However, I just don't see the aggression or the mood of it at all; surely, if the point of it is to convey aggression or harshness, that's a serious failing? Additionally it does seriously obscure the lyrics, which'd undermine the point of having either decent/intelligent or appropriately 'brutal' lyrics to fit it. So; to summarize, my point isn't that growling is completely worthless, but rather that people like myself actually have reasons other than OMGIdn'tliektehbr00talz to look upon growling skeptically. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 21:42
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If Opeth's Ghost Reveries had no growls on it, it wouldn't have 10% of the effect. I assume anyone who makes that argument yells at kids on the street and has long ago gone far too deaf to have a valid opinion on anything related to music.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:11
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I don't mind growls when used appropriately, but I hate when they are used to the exclusion of all other vocals, esp when it doesn't fit with the mood or subject matter. For too many bands its just a gimmicky device. However, it can also be used quite effectively as well. I love the growls the Opeth guy did on Day 12 from THE. ------------- 
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Posted By: persecutionmania
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:15
| I dare anyone to listen to converge's jane doe or the new magrudergrind cd and tell me that actual singing would sound better for these two badass albums. I love all types of music but I grew up worshipping napalm death so I've got 14 years of experience in knowing what good growling, squeeling, etc, is. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:17
"The Opeth guy"?!  That's "Mr. Mikael Akerfeldt", to you!   |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:21
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I tend not to appreciate the aesthetics of growling/ grunting. It's not a noise that appeals to me.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:21
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:23
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I like how Opeth's the only band that's been brought up here, though really I have to admit I have yet to hear with a really brutal growl from another progressive band, though now that I think of it Demon Carcass from The Faceless is actually just as deep and brutal -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:25
That seriously scares me. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: persecutionmania
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:27
| Gorguts' Obscura being sung not screamed would be ridiculous and that album to me is as progressive as metal can be. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:52
| I thought this thread could use a nice growling pic. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 22:55
It beats suffering a growler wanna-be. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 23:36
Aww, it looks like my dog, except without the white and his coat isn't that curly.  If I tried I could probably grow accustomed to growling, but right now I have hardly scratched the surface of prog metal, the only album I have listened to was Scenes From a Memory, which I liked. I don't think that they would bother me after a while, but I do wish I knew what they were saying. I guess you could say the same thing with vocals on the other end of the spectrum, i.e. Yes or maybe Sigur Ros. I can't imagine that falsetto vocals are enjoyed by everyone. |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 23:54
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I wonder how people first reacted to distorted guitars. I remember some ten years ago hearing an In Flames track, Dialogue with the Stars or something. What a brilliant track, I thought, instrumental as it was. I got my hands on another of their songs, Embody the Invisible, and was rocking out to the intro with a killer melody, and then the guy opened his mouth. Screaming.  I hated it at first, but the music was so good that first I got used to it and then actually started to like it. During the years to come I stumbled upon some extreme vocalists that I really really loved, like Max Cavalera on Sepultura's Roots (too bad he's much worse on the musically more interesting earlier albums) and, you guessed it, Mikael Åkerfeldt. He can articulate every word while making the most powerful growls.Recently I've been impressed by the vocals on Kayo Dot's Choirs of the Eye, particularly on The Manifold Curiosity. I have no idea of the lyrics in the screaming part, but it sounds so good and menacing with the music that I don't really care. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 28 2009 at 23:57
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Not related directly to metal growling, I am an animal lover: This might get censored, but what the heck:  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 01:56
I had no idea how to spell it and was too lazy to look it up. -------------
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 02:23
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Not anti, not for them, although, I prefer Vocals - Not Growls
My main problem is I can't hear the lyrics - Probably not the growler's fault  , but I don't have time to learn how to hear the lyrics.
-Joel ------------- 
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 06:29
| I prefer snoring. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 06:49
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It just sounds dreadful.
I can still enjoy the music though. Usually I manage to somehow just phase out the growls and concentrate on the instruments and whatever's going on. Great stuff there, some of the most expressive and exciting music arround.
Strangely enough, I find that usually the instrumentation is enough to convey the emotions of the music, so in the end the growl are entirely superfluous.
Chucking them entirely would make things much easier on the ears and the throats.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 07:00
Yes vocals are not falsetto, Jon Anderson is a tenor.
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Posted By: camilleanne
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 07:58
------------- The planet is fine the people are f**ked. -George Carlin- |
Posted By: camilleanne
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 08:18
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Growls and screams are my problem when listening to music,I really can't appreciate, so now I always listen to Opeth I can stand he's growls now but before It's really irritating to my ear, and my brother is enjoying so I'm a little jealous..
------------- The planet is fine the people are f**ked. -George Carlin- |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 08:25
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Yeah, it first seemed like this thread would only get posts from people who actually like growling, and we'd be thinking there's no objection to them. Well I don't like them. I have one album from Opeth because the musics OK, but I could listen to the music live at a festival because it was basically just mess most of the time in my ears. Don't blame me on this, it's just how it sounds to me. It's the same with a lot of music. I'm still trying to figure out when did musicians reach the point, when distortion was the only way to go about. There's basically no rock songs on radio nowadays without any distortion on the guitar. And then it was in the singing. Of course, everything can be an art, and I don't deny that, and I appreciate people who can do something well, but it certainly is not something I'd do or pay for. Just like I wouldn't pay to go see someone juggle or do stand-up comedy. And the way I see it, a lot of growling is there to express suppressed aggression. Ever listened to those Norwegian death metal bands? Yet these guys make it sound pretty ridiculous. There seems to be quite a lot of anger in the world nowadays, all these wrist cutting experiments, piercings, swearing, tattoos, showing offs, growling about satan. It's no wonder some might rather enjoy some Kansas for a change. Though a good point was made about Yes and Sigur Ros getting repetitive or about how all the pop music is filled with bass drums. That or rap lyrics. Another thing I can barely stand. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 08:50
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Bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden pulled off the dark metal songs without the growls and sound just fine doing it. In my opinion, the cookie monster vocals are too horrible sounding to listen to and I cringe every time that they come up. Even the ones on Ayreon's THE are cringe inducing and in my opinion the only weakness with that album; although admittedly they are limited enough to not reduce my enjoyment of that album. ------------- 
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 09:23
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The sound Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden were trying to achieve was totally different than a band like say Wolves in the Throne Room or Opeth. There's a difference between dark and aggression. Sabbath is hardly an aggressive band. I don't understand how people can listen to extreme metal and think man this would sound better if he was singing. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 09:28
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Which is why I listen to almost no extreme metal, because I think the growling sucks. Opeth are the only band that make it difficult for me, because Akerfeldt has a great clean voice and the music is quite good; it is just the death growls that suck and make it near impossible for me to want to spin Opeth that often. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 09:30
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Besides, this probably applies to me.
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Posted By: Bondarus
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 10:35
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I think its a case of preference.
To me 'growled vocals' are just another vehicle for expressing an emotion in a song. used correctly, it can be as important in a song a say the difference between a clean and distorted guitar sound.
Each of the above is used to convey some sort of feeling or emotion and as such, to my eyes, is another string to a singers bow.
I enjoy both given the right circumstance, but personally I like my growls mixed with clean vocals such as how Opeth, Fear Factory and Enochian Theory use theirs.
i remember as a young music fan, not getting growled vocals at all. but I've come to enjoy both as i've strolled in to my thirties.  ------------- www.enochiantheory.co.uk www.myspace.com/enochiantheoryband "I am the coming of a new age, pass your sh*t by far..." |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 11:51
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I think human voice as an instrument in all of it's different forms is a great gift.
There are vocal performances I don't personally like, but there are little styles which I would not like.
Mostly I prefer good classical vocal style, f.ex. in opera and such.
I hear many times from people they can't stand this kind of singing.
I think it's their loss, not my shame.
I am not bothered by growling vocals either. There are good growling and bad.
F.ex in Carcass "symphonies of sickess", I like the low pitched more than the higher pitched voice, and they form a solid part of the performance along with the instruments.
Late 80's early 90's Napalm Death has also fine growling style vocals, and also My Dying Bride.
I like also normal soft pop voice, like Sting f.ex., mony great jazz vocalists like Billie Holiday, also some basic rock singers like Jack Bruce, what ever.
Maybe if ears are open, mind free from prejudicies and feeling grows taste for all kinds of approaches, listeneres can enjoy nearly all kind of artistic expression.
Usually tastes are affected by values and culture, and maybe attempts to be relieved from such bounds might open out larger perspective.
A faith to own insight might be one step in this process.
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Posted By: nmccrina
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 12:10
Better than the "emo guy + acoustic guitar" junk that's all over the alternative stations, 'round here anyway. Plain White T's =  ------------- lolwut? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 12:11
:( But ze music would be ineffective. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 12:52
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I've never questionned my positive appreciation of "growlings" in death-metal or doomdeath. Since the chords were looooow and the rhythmic section was bombing the ground, the deep vocals just appeared to me as an evidence. It's a taste you have or don't have. I have much more difficulties with the black-metal raspy screamings which I find rather disturbing and disquieting. While I feel the deep vocals are the expression of an inner power, the screams from these Norway loonies (I mean the likes of Burzum, Mayhem, Darkthrone and their merry friends) always made the impression that the guys behind this music were really deeply rooted in a psychological maëlstrom. |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 14:46
Haha, true. Quite true. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 15:28
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I can live with shrieking, screaming, sobbing and all other kinds of vocals - but growling? What's the point of it? Does any of you ever growl in real life? Probably not. The only thing growling reminds me of are third rate horror movies, and I immediately think the content of the song must be third rate horror stuff whenever a singer growls. The worst thing is that I am right in at least 90% of the cases.
-------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 15:37
I once knew a guy who used to growl. I think he was a bit insane though. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 15:57
No, but I do tend to speak my words with an operatic vibrato when I'm talking to people.
 The point is I don't think it's a valid argument, because people don't play instruments or sing in 'real life' whatever that means.
The point my original post is trying to make is that growling is not easy to do and is definetely a tool that should be used in a lot of music. Therefore even though people don't like it, they should be able to appreciate it, and I'm mostly getting posts on how people dislike it.
I also agree on how difficult it is listening to black metal vocals. It just sounds like high pitched gurgling to me, though I listened to Wolves in the Throne Room and it changed my opinion drastically, because it made the bleak atmosphere so much better. -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 18:34
I just explained why I don't like it., and I don't appreciate it either. If others like it, fine; I consider it to be somewhat puerile. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 19:21
You're argument doesn't make sense, though. Do you go around speaking to people in song on a regular basis? I highly doubt it. So how does the 'people don't growl in real life' point hold any water whatsoever? It's fine if you just don't like it, but make that your point next time, as it's the only one that really makes sense. Every other reason for not liking something still boils down to personal taste. |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 19:36
| Like many I assume, I was a little cautious of growling at first, it just sounded wrong to me. But my taste has matured a bit, and I now see its impact in greater appreciation. I still far prefer clean vocals, but, I can stomach some growls if they are done tastefully. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 19:45
I think this is a fair way to describe my overall feeling, except I am still not as tolerant about growling. It just sounds goofy to me most of the time (there are rare exceptions where it adds). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 20:46
You have not understood my argument, that's all. If a singer for example screams he does it to express a certain emotion, like fear or anger. But what the heck is supposed to be expressed by growling? "I am an animal"? My dislike also has to do with the kind of lyrics I automatically associate with growling, which is stuff like cannibalism or the likes. You certainly don't sing "I love you" with a growling voice unless you are a madman. The way you sing should reflect the content of the song. By the way: Opera singers sing the way they do because that kind of singing produces the maximum noise with a minimum of effort. This is very important when you have no microphone, need to reach a large audience and be heard above an accompanying orchestra. It is not just a mannerism, as some people do believe. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 21:23
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^ Yes, but most percussion instruments don't have much in the way of emotion. By using your logic, does a lengthy snare roll express anything other than "I know how to double stroke on a snare drum"? By your logic, any untuned instruments should be taken out of music altogether.
However, just like rapid snare hits, cymbal crescendoes, and bass drum booms are made to increase drive and intensity, so are death growls to increase agression, power, and depth in the piece of music, not to mention intentionally making the listener feel uncomfortable. -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 23:33
Excuse me? It does not follow at all; you are making that up. I said nothing about melody or tuned or untuned instruments at all. I am a drummer, and I don't expect a percussion instrument to convey emotion, at least not in the same way as a voice. The human voice is the most expressive of all instruments. A growl does not convey power to me, sorry; please explain why it should. A shout does convey power, but not a growl. Neither does it convey depth, whatever you mean by that in the first place. It does convey aggression though, but of a raw and primitive kind (hence why I think the appropriate lyrics to go with growling are about cannibalism or the likes). But it does not make me feel uneasy, at least not the way you mean. It is annoying, that's all. A kid might feel uneasy about that kind of voice; I just think it is ridiculous. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 23:36
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I absolutely agree growls are difficult to produce by a vocalist, but I just don't like them. >>>First off, if growls were an oddity in musical history limited to a band or two, I would understand and appreciate them more. But there are plethora of bands growling and I just don't see the point. >>>Second, that style of singing is limited to a certain range and intervals. I couldn't imagine someone doing octave jumps while growling, or singing a melody - let's say a simple pentatonic scale. If I am wrong, please point it out and show me an example. >>>I am also curious to hear if there's an artist (or more of them) doing growls in combination with other singing styles: a few seconds of growling, then a sudden jump to falsetto, then to "normal" singing, then 7 bars of hip-hop, then to madrigal vocalizations...if there's such a thing please let me know. (Beside Area). . . . One thing just came into my mind...multi-growling?!?  |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: July 29 2009 at 23:56
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^ Well, Mikael Akerfeldt is great at switching between growls and clean melodic singing in Opeth's stuff. But as I said earlier, growling is NOT singing, so people shouldn't compare the two. Of course you won't find any similarities between them, because they aren't the same thing. Totally and utterly different. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 00:44
Unexpect is probably exactly what you want. Mr. Bungle's also sort of like that, but instead of being based in metal and shooting into pretty much every other style, they're based in every other style and go back to extreme metal a lot.
As for unison vocals, I think Deicide and Nile both have two growlers, and I'm sure there's more. -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 02:42
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A much more interesting technique of vocals is throat singing, something which I am a master at, having done it since I was a little kid. I had no idea it was called "throat singing" when I started it though, I just thought it sounded great when I discovered it. The first melody I ever sung in that technique was the title melody of the German SF series "Raumpatrouille" (""Space Patrol"). There is a certain "growling" quality to throat singing because the sounds are produced in the throat only. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 02:58
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Yes, as was mentioned a few pages back, Jane Doe by Converge rules, one of my favorite albums right now and would sound totally wrong without the hardcore/metal screaming. I get what this thread is trying to achieve, but there are just some people's mind you just can't change. Baldfriede is apparently " right in at least 90% of the cases. So I wouldn't even bother arguing, because I don't have the time, the patience and the inclination and past threads. I don't really come much to this forum anymore cos I have too many music projects going and I spend most of my time on audio production forums, and learnign about that stuff now instead of PA, so chances are you if you argue my post I probably wont be back to read it for ages lol Someone also thinks Peter Hammill can do raw and aggressive. Fair enough to TGMRoblov, but clearly non of us more metal inclined people are not really going agree. There was a time when I didn't like death metal at all, but hell, I've sat there and heard all the classic Obituary, Morbid Angel, Death, Carcass, In Flames, At the Gates etc records (since really I'm more of a metal fan than "prog" fan anyway) so I have a huge appreciation for the style of music in general. Fact: If you do not have the proper technique, you will f**k your vocal chords. It takes plenty of time to master and if you want to be good at it you need proper training , like singing or even proper hardcore screaming. I know a few people that have totally ruined their voices/tendons, whatever, from playing instruments incorrectly and having improper vocal technique. To be fair I'm the goddamn weirdo that listens to drone doom, emo/pop rock, death metal, jazz fusion and avant garde minimalist stuff, hip hop and post rock in the space of about 6 hours so really I just tend to listen to most genres if I and something good in it, thing being I'm just picky about what I like in individual genres. Some people are super open to new stuff, like myself, and are willing to give stuff some serious time to appreciate it if I can't get into it straight away, others can't. Some people just genuinely don't like something no matter how many times you try to explain it to them. And that's cool, cos there is a lot of music people have tried to get me into that I just couldn't, no matter how much I tried. So yeah, whatever, I love death growls, but I honestly wouldn't expect someone like Baldfriede, who probably doesn't have that background in listening to the Floridian and Gothenburg death metal scene bands like I do, to like death metal and/or death metal growls. ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 03:44
I AM open to new stuff, very much so. I would even be open to growling; I am not against it per se. on the contrary, any vocal technique is worth exploring. What I am against is the attitude behind growling, which I consider to be puerile. I can't take these growlers seriously at all because of this attitude. "Look what a dangerous guy I am; aren't you afraid of me"? Sorry, but that's is simply childish. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 05:26
| I'm not offended by growling at all; I just crack up laughing whenever I hear it. I just can't take it seriously. Ever watch how-to-growl Youtube videos? Comedy gold. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 05:39
How so you know that is the attitude? I've never presumed that at all when I've heard it. You said you'd be open to growling, but your posts say otherwise.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 05:52
It is the context which suggests it. Growling is used by a lot of metal bands whose image already is centered around that. The lyrics are mostly about dark and violent topics, so the conclusion is pretty logical. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Diaby
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 06:25
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I can only appreciate and enjoy growling, if the music behind is good. That's the reason I like Opeth. THe first time I heard Watershed growls really annoyed me. But I got used to them, since there are plenty of clean parts that guarantee the contrast. However, I can't stand black metal shrieking even if it's prog black, but the thing I hate the most is the metalcore way of vocalizing. I tried to listen to some BtBaM songs but I ended up stopping the video clips after 2 minutes. ------------- yeah |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 06:37
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 06:54
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. I do find growls a bit silly when they're supposed to scare you (sorry guys!), but they can be used quite effectively to convey all sorts of feelings; especially sadness. Listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGSaT_ae4gI - song - especially around the 5:30 mark - and you'll see that the growls in this case have absolutely nothing to do with appearing threatening or scary. On a general note, I'm relatively indifferent towards growling. Can't say that I'm a fan, but it doesn't really bother me anymore. In some cases (like the one above), it definitely adds feeling to the composition. ------------- 
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 07:10
That's why I gave a 90% figure. Any vocal technique can be put to good use. Since I growl myself if appropriate I certainly am not against it per se. I just find that special attitude I described ("Me big scary man") ridiculous. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: GaryB
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 08:12
| One of my favorite growlers is Tom Waits. Billy Gibbons also comes to mind. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 09:19
| Is John Entwistle the first growler? |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 10:45
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 11:01
| Wasn't it Mike Oldfield and his "Piltdown Man" thing? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 11:52
It takes quite a bit of talent to belch the alphabet too. It doesn't mean that I want to hear it or can appreciate it, but I suppose at the right level of inebriation..... What it comes down to though is that folks like yourself the growls enhance your listening experience, whereas for me it almost totally ruins it. -------------
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 12:14
Beware of the condescendance. In death-metal, we don't belch in the micro. We vomit in it. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 14:08
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Grrrr, how much longer must this thread go on, grrr, grrr, grrrrrrr? Growling vocals are best if used sparingly. If it is end all and be all of your style isn't it a bit tedious, and how long will you be able to keep it up? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 14:10
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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 14:51
Doesn't ASH RA TEMPEL's "Schwingungen" LP's A-side vocal go also little to this category?
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 15:15
| I can enjoy some death growls , athough I am far from an expert in the genre. They are quite useful to express a certain kind of emotions , and suit a song well when used every once in a while. What would be of "The Leper Affinity" without growls? |
Posted By: BLITZKRIEG
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 16:17
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I, quite frankly, don't like growling. I know the amount of skill and effort it takes, but there is no tune or melody in it. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 16:21
Absolute best post |
Posted By: Evolutionary Sleeper
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 16:35
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There's growling on the title track of the new Beardfish album. ::hides::
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 16:45
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There was growling in the opening track to the Sane Day as well. Only one word, but hey it counts :P
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 21:53
In the event that you weren't giving a playful jab at the participants of this discussion, some of us enjoy arguing about stuff like this.
I honestly can't tell, so nothing against you.I think some people should give an extra listen to BTBAM's Colors. They use all kinds of vocal techniques (both harsh and clean) including screams and growls, and not only do they convey lots of emotions while the lyrics are pretty vague and could be about anything or nothing at all, but they make the beautiful parts even more beautiful. That is one example where I find the use of harsh vocals is nothing short of masterful. -------------
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Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 30 2009 at 22:03
| I don't like it becasue I feel like almost everyone who does it sounds the exact same. Therefore not very original and very cliche'. That usually goes for the music under the growling as well though I suppose |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 06:37
My problem, too. But that means, that when there's a growler who sounds unique or different, then I really appreciate it. I like the vocal work of Death, Carcas, and Obituary for instance. ------------- This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 06:40
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Its oki that rockers get drunk. Its only human that the get a hangover.
But do they have to puke while recording. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 07:45
Heheheheh... I do acknowledge it as a vocal technique though, so that it does not sound like singing is not my problem. But of course, a tonal vocal techniques like most growling are admittedly less versatile and less varied than tonal ones. ------------- This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 12:12
Well thank you guys  |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 12:30
No, they are just "I am freaked out on LSD"-vocals. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 12:41
I was just joking, i find it to be usefull in some context.
The shifting between "beauti-vocal" and growling on Opeth :"Ghost of Perdition" would be a good example of this. One of my favorite Opeth tracks.
But if its constant vocal on a 60 min CD its too much for me. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 16:14
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I think that we got it now: only a few people can stand growlings, and the only death-metal band they know is Opeth. Gee. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 17:28
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^It would seem so. -------------
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 17:52
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I hated growling at first, but with persistence I learned to treat the voice as an instrument--and applied that to growling. I now really enjoy bands like Meshuggah (my favorite) and Opeth, and to a lesser extent bands like Cynic and Atheist. I have repeatedly tried Between the Buried and Me, but it's the higher-pitched growling, or something about those that I really can't stand yet. I'm hoping that someday changes. ------------- 
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 18:02
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^Between The Buried And Me isn't always really growling, a lot of the times they're hardcore screams, but they seem to have a fusion of death growls and screams as well. They have a lot of styles as I've said before. They even do grindcore-like pig squeals in one song on Alaska. -------------
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 18:06
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I have no problem with growls, (but then again I am a metal head at heart). It is fitting of the music, and if done right can REALLY be a great compliment. And to untrained ears it may all sound the same but I can notice differences in every persons style, and some growls sound "good" while others are just bad. It is exactly like clean singing. It's just what you are used to I suppose. However, I have no problem with "low" growls but I hate high pitched. I can not stand it. Whether it's high pitched shrieking, screaming, hardcore...I hate it. And don't get me started on pig squeals...... |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 18:09
It's the screaming ones that are alot harder for me to stomach, as Tech/Extreme was pretty much the hardest sub-genre for me to get into. I love some of it now, but at heart I'm not a metalhead--so I tend to be picky. Nonetheless, I appreciate the art of growling and that it's a respectable and useful vocalizing technique. -------------
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 18:16
Agreed |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 18:20
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^Yeah, I don't really like hardcore music myself or the vocal style that goes with it. I prefer metal, and the only sort of hardcore band that I like are BTBAM, but they have a lot more metal elements than hardcore depending on the album.
I also don't really like black metal shrieks, but when I listen to the music as a whole, it seems to work for me. Just in my opinion, of course. -------------
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 31 2009 at 19:02
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^Yeah, take Burzum for example. A lot of them music he made was pretty sweet. But I just could not take that high pitched shrieking. It is absolutely fitting of the music, but I personally can't stand it. That's why I like "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" by Mayhem. The lack of shrieking vocals. I think those are actually VERY fitting for the music myself. |
Posted By: Dawn of Eternity
Date Posted: August 01 2009 at 11:51
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I don't understand the problem people have with growling. A clean vocal technique would not accompany such brutal music. It is generally a part of the aesthetic of death metal.
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 01 2009 at 12:53
Please name a handful of bands that give off that image. I'd like to hear some backup here. And in reference to your earlier comments on the lyrics that growls portray... Most of the time, good (and I use the term very losely because the term "good" is down to opinion) death/grind/black/doom/post metal bands tend to have very thought-provoking, insightive, philosophical and a lot of the time beautiful and poetic lyrics. I can name about 20 examples here, and I will do: Opeth (based on a whole load of different themes like love, betrayal, fantasy...) Death (later stuff deals with human commentary and philosophical views) Atheist (variety of different themes once again, a lot about nature and it's beauty) Pestilence (sci-fi and sorrow) Cynic (cosmology and sci-fi) Agalloch (sorrow and love) Behemoth (mythology) Napalm Death and Cephalic Carnage (political) Vader (war) Meshuggah (chaos and sci-fi) Nile (Egyptian history) Isis (wide variety of concepts once again, Carry as an example being about a drowning man's anguish) Pig Destroyer (political and comedy) Morbid Angel (same sort of thing as Death) Edge Of Sanity (fantasy) Gojira (sci-fi) Not exactly 20 (more 16), but I got bored at that point. Point being, a hell of a lot of extreme metal bands don't lyricise about gore and things that disgust. Yes, Cannibal Corpse, Suffocation, Regurtitate and bands of the like DO, but like most other genres of music, there is a variety of themes covered. Please, do not judge growls as a way to convey violence and gore, because it really isn't as simple as that. There are a lot of educated lyrics behind them that people ignorant to the genre just refuse to see. Please read through the lyrics on http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/nile/annihilationofthewicked.html#1 - this link and tell me what you think. By the way, I'm not sure if it's copyright infringement, so remove it <insert admin name here> if it is you rascal ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: August 01 2009 at 16:23
It's even more true when keeping in mind that the death-metal musicians lower their instruments from E to D, C or even B. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 01 2009 at 21:32
In Meshuggah's case from B to F#. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 01 2009 at 21:48
Hate to be that guy : P, but they typically tune down one semi tone, so their 7 strings are Bb and their 8 strings are F  Of an interesting note, the bass player does not tune down a semi tone lower, but actually tunes UP one semi tone, which is what contributes to that awesome percussive guitar attack sound Meshuggah is known for (a.k.a "Djent". Every time I play the opening riff to Bleed, I just use a program to change the pitch up one semi tone, so I can the riff in the same position Meshuggah do, without needing to retune my guitar (my guitar stays in B standard pretty much all the time). Hell, some bands go as far to tune down to C an octave DOWN from what Arch Enemy uses, which is also lower yet than where Meshuggah goes guitar wise. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 01 2009 at 21:53
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First of all, as others have said, the very music demands such vocal techniques. Ergo, I think most people really object to the music as such and find it too loud, heavy and abrasive....unpleasant, in short. That's why you'll find a lot of people saying they wouldn't mind growls if the music is good...whereas, me..."good growls"??? What the hell is that!! If people like those, good for them, but growls really do sound tastiest with all the grimy and gory settings of quintessential death metal. In fact, I would suggest that but for the music being arranged in a way that demands growls, you don't really need growls to express sorrow, introspection, you know, all those profound human feelings. I am not saying it can't be appealing, I like death/doom albums that get that done for me too but I think it would sound a lot more appealing with clean singing simply because, as the detractors have put it in this thread , it would sound more genuine. Maybe this too is a flawed perception but I wasn't listening to death metal right out of my womb so there's only a certain amount of mental conditioning I can discard and I would rather have Dio express triumph and power and Halford express sorrow and anger because they would do it in a way I would enjoy much more. There's always the likes of John Tardy, Frank Mullen et al for the gory lessons in anatomy. How can you put up with those lyrics?? Well, just don't read them (which is what I usually do)...after all, you can't understand the words in any case, right? And it doesn't bear repetition but growls are not at all easy to execute and whether a growler can sing acapella or shatter glass panes is irrelevant. It's not singing, it's a vocal technique, that's how I like to put it! FYI, death-doom vocalist Jonas Renske (Katatonia) lost his voice briefly after his piercing screamed growls on Dance of December Souls.
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