Do my songs require realistic guitar sounds?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=59537
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Topic: Do my songs require realistic guitar sounds?
Posted By: paganinio
Subject: Do my songs require realistic guitar sounds?
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 06:09
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read first: I'm about to work on two songs. Now that progressive rock almost doesn't exist in my country, I can surely lower the standards. -- I don't even have any instruments. I'm just sequencing some midis and mixing them with my vocals. Because I'm using MIDI, I have a vast diversity of instruments to choose from. Thus the question: should I use the realistic electric guitar sounds, so that it resembles actual prog, or should I use something unique to MIDI that doesn't exist in the real world? You may say, "well you are the musician, why don't you decide?" But I have good reasons for both choices: 1. I want to create a different kind of sound, that has a "fantasy" texture to it. (Potential) fans will be asking, "Where on earth did you get that guitar?" 2. But I also like the good ol' sound that real electric guitars make. It's old but I never got tired of it. Fans will be saying, "Hey, that's some traditional guitar work right there." Whatever the decision is, it will be applied to both songs for consistency. Which means, if one song has realistic guitars, the other song will have them too, and no "fake" guitars will be used anywhere in the songs. Finally, I hope this is the right forum! |
The style is prog nontheless, at least according to my definition of prog. Replies:
Posted By: theBox
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 07:09
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Real guitars please....in fact...you need real drums and bass too. I ,like you, write prog music using midi but I don't like the sound particularly (even with reallistic vst). I just listen to them and envision them in a real band context. Ah...that would be really great but I simply cannot find anyone in greece who is remotely interested in the type of Anglagard/Wobbler kind of style that I write in....:-( P.S. And while we are at it.... If anyone of you happens to be a keyboard player living in Athens and is in fact interested in the above mentioned type of music...please send me a pm!!! (I'm a guitar player myself...) ------------- |
Posted By: The Runaway
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 08:33
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Realistic guitar. Better use the feel if any. ------------- http://www.formspring.me/Aragorn224" rel="nofollow - Trendsetter win! The search for nonexistent perfection. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 09:35
Any of the MIDI songs I have written have the cheesy guitar sound. But I don't know anyone who can play the parts I have written.  ------------- 
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 09:36
Soundfonts have helped the sound quality improve vastly, but then again, I don't have any high tech instrumentation. Here is a link to two songs I have written. http://www.trfmusicians.com/index.php?option=com_uhp2&Itemid=2&task=viewpage&user_id=80&pageid=15 - http://www.trfmusicians.com/index.php?option=com_uhp2&Itemid=2&task=viewpage&user_id=80&pageid=15 -------------
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theBox wrote:Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 10:21
| I also am not a big fan of the MIDI sounds, I prefer real guitar. I did like your compositions though, apart from the MIDI sounds! |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 10:37
| Pfft. Do what you want. Realistic guitar sounds are no more necessary than using natural acoustic instruments instead of electric ones; it's just an option. |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 10:48
| You can get some great, high-quality soundfonts for midi files if you want that sound great. That being said, in my mind this is really only good for keyboards (where it is excellent - I have a patch of Mellotron midis on my computer that sound like the real thing), as they are generally sample-based instruments anyway. I'm not a fan of it on guitar at all, even with the best sounds it still ends up being very soulless. As a guitarist myself there are a ton of nuances with the instrument that the midi cannot capture - the subtlety or forcefulness of the left hand touch, the level of pick attack used, or possibly no pick at all, the expressiveness of vibrato and bending (midi fonts typically limit this - you usually can't really adjust the level of vibrato or the degree of accuracy of the bends - hey, sometimes inaccurate bends sound great, especially in a really ballsy, bluesy setting), all that sort of thing. Bass you can kind of get away with but you're really better off with the real thing, and drums just sound cheesy and lifeless. I am aware that modern electronic drum sounds are very realistic and I have been quite impressed myself with electric drum kits, however they're still lacking that certain something. Your typical computer midi fonts aren't going to be nearly as good as those electric kits, either. |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 11:54
This. While it's fine asking people which one they prefer, you, the artist, have the final say. Don't forget that. Although I don't want to sound like I'm telling you what to do.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 13:36
Well, it has to be reallistic guitar sound, it sounds WAY better, and so for the feelings and all  ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 15:54
| Why does it have to sound like a guitar at all? |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 16:03
^^ This!
What is surely most important is that YOU like it. It doesn't have to sound like anything at all.
Do what you want and dont restrict it before you start.  Not that I know anything I'm just a fan.------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 16:24
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Check out some old Jan Hammer solo stuff. He took great pride in making some of his keyboard work imitative of guitar.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 17:14
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Yea this decision seems a little asinine. Will the 'guitar' in the music even have any emotional purpose? And if so, then choose what YOU think expresses what you want. Don't expect anyone else to enjoy it the way you do. As we choose between 'fantasy' and 'real-sounding' in this poll, we're going through the large catalog of guitar sounds in our heads that best matches those descriptions. For me to tell you to play 'realistic' guitar is absolutely pointless unless you can hear and feel exactly what I am imagining. And even if you could hear and feel what I was thinking of, and you used it, it then wouldn't be that original. Now to talk about great examples of what I think is 'fantasy' and 'real' guitar.......... when I think of 'fantasy' guitar, I think of Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, John McLaughlin, John Scofield and their use of synthesized guitar. Or Chris 'Arpmandude' and his out-of-this-world use of harmonics and the whammy bar. Or Fredrik Thordendal's 'unrealistic' sounds. When I think of 'real' guitar, I think of Steve Howe, Steve Hackett on the acoustic side and players like Carlos Santana, Walter Becker with their clean and bright sound on the electric side. But none of this at all has anything to do with what you're trying to express through your own music. ------------- 
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 17:19
why?
Spot on. This is the only kind of music I am interested in hearing.
Why did you even write it then? Are you writing the Aural Dictionary According to Paganinio Volume 1: Prog? Or are you writing music, mannnnn? -------------
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 17:21
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I think the best thing to do is, when this poll is over, to tell us that our opinions suck and we can all go screw ourselves and that you're just going to write whatever you want regardless. I just watched a documentary about Miles Davis and his courageous transition into his electric sound, so, I hope that helps explain my current mood. -------------
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 18:02
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I wouldnt bother, you cant get a particularly realistic guitar sound in my (limited) experience anyway unless you want to use samples. In the end just go with what works best for you.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 20:36
It all really depends on the best way to get the sound you really want. If you can't decide between two sounds, use them both.  You can mix them together or alternate them. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 20:46
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Almost the entire forum think real guitars work better. But in fact,
1. I don't have access to any real guitars. The closest I can get is the guitar synthesizer in FL Studio (I use FL Studio because the free demo version is fully functional).
2. I can't tell the differences anyway. I've downloaded some Metallica midis, and they sound better than the real Metallica to me. If everyone was like me, music production would be much less expensive.
Actually the album contains 15 tracks, and only two of them will sound like guitar. The rest sound like midi and synths, in an arguably progressive way.
It has to do with my definition of prog. Although I might change my definition later.
I'm making prog songs, because prog is the best style to express/convey that specific concept. I also make synth pop and hip hop, when they suit the concept of the songs.
Also, there's nothing wrong with writing "aural dictionaries" (but that is not what I'm doing). J.S.Bach did that and greatly helped the development of european music.
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Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 21:05
My final say is to let the PA members decide. Now that the poll result is so unambigous, I want to thank you all for helping me make this decision.
Now that the decision is made, let me describe what the song will sound like, shall we?
1. "Shine On Your Crazy Octavarium"-esque intro, for about 10 seconds.
2. New age style instrument playing Theme 1. Maybe a harp.
3. "Shine On Your" ceases. Realistic guitars kick in, repeating Theme 1.
4. Tempo increases. Drums kick in. Accompaniment arrives. Now you get your typical progressive metal.
5. Theme 1 finally cools down and bridges to a hip hop section. (We won't hear Theme 1 again until the end of the song.)
6. Between rap sections there's a vocalist (actually, the same guy that was rapping) singing.
... (electric guitars do not appear between 20 and 30)
29. Virtuoso instrumento solo (probably Rudess-esque keyboards), to build up to the grand final section of the song.
30. Electric guitars return at the end of the song, playing Theme 1 again.
31. Coda immediately followed by samples of stadium audience applauding. (it's not a live album but this sound effect is really important to the concept. I might take such samples from the live version of Octavarium. I don't think "applause" is copyrighted sound material.)
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: July 14 2009 at 22:09
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I'm going to hate it.
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Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 02:37
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if you don't have any instruments, I don't see how you can use a real guitar... ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 20:48
------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
What would it all sound like?Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 02:22
| The real thing of course, but I often forget that we live in the I-Pod generation which was promoted with the aid of 'Star Trek'. I'm sure you all remember '7 of Nine'. "You will be assimilated, resistance is futile". It's called predictive programming and you all wonder why they paint school buses yellow and black. It's beecause we all need a little training beefore we enter the beehive, so beehave. Bee a good bee. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 03:26
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As i read your post, you have no real guitar, so what you are talking about is should you make it sound as "guitar" as possible.
Answer :
No, shop around with all the effects you got, and use what fits best in the current situation.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: July 16 2009 at 03:33
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if you don't have a guitar, don't try to make it sound like one. It will just sound like an failed attempt.... Use some VSTs, and MIDI your way through. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |