Has there ever been a progressive punk band?  I know progressive and punk kind of contradict each other, but I think a progressive punk band would be cool.  I guess the Mars Volta is the closest to progressive punk.

The Minstrel wrote: Has there ever been a progressive punk band?  I know progressive and punk kind of contradict each other, but I think a progressive punk band would be cool.  I guess the Mars Volta is the closest to progressive punk.

I guess, you should stop guessing.

 Progressive Punk is as clear an oxymoron you are going to find in music.

WillieThePimp wrote: , but I know kids who will attend a get-up kids concert.

What's one of them?  Like NAMBLA or something?

WillieThePimp wrote: Haha, I knew I shouldn't of said that on a prog forum. The Get-up Kids are some emo/punk band. I was saying that kids who love those kind of bands listen to Mars Volta as well.

Obviously because the members of the Mars Volta used to be in an emo-like band called At The Drive In.

Peter Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance has a punk feel at times. In fact, some have suggested the origins of punk in the UK could have originated by Hammill's Nadir's Big Chance.

I would say, While 2-3 songs are somewhat punkish, the idea of Nadir's Big Chance being the origin of punk is complete bunc...but maybe you might want to check it out  yourself. Great lp.

I'd recommend Television's "Marquee Moon" and Sonic Youth's "Daydream Nation".

Punk was liberating for people who wanted to make music, and some managed to turn that inspiration into a 'progressive' approach...despite often lacking prog's esteem for virtuosity. So the genres may not so opposite as some would have you believe.

James Lee wrote: I'd recommend Television's "Marquee Moon" and Sonic Youth's "Daydream Nation". Punk was liberating for people who wanted to make music, and some managed to turn that inspiration into a 'progressive' approach...despite often lacking prog's esteem for virtuosity. So the genres may not so opposite as some would have you believe.

Yes, they are. I blame Punk for destroying the "classic prog scene".

lostrom wrote: Progs enemy number one was not punk! It was the most evil of all...I dare not say it, but I must......: DISCO

Prog's biggest enemy was prog itself. The musicians of that era lost interest and decided to make some money.

gdub411 wrote: lostrom wrote: Progs enemy number one was not punk! It was the most evil of all...I dare not say it, but I must......: DISCO Prog's biggest enemy was prog itself. The musicians of that era lost interest and decided to make some money.

No, no, no...my dear friend...that was NOT the case...I was a teen during that period, and I know from many sources, that this is not the case. Please, what you believe in is a myth! The truth is, if we're gonna be serious...the truth is that they where forced to change their music by the "winds of time". They were forced! Some musicians paniced, for example Gene Clark (ex The Byrds). He once said in an interviev that: "Suddenly, in just one year or so, everything changed. Big stars hardly got their tickets sold anymore. The record-companies demanded hit-singles and beat-drums. It was hard for me even to get a gig. All was about this punk! Everything else was just not in fashion anylonger". So, the dinasours did fell, but thay fell while being attacked. Some quit, but most of them just tried to survive. Van der graaf Generator had to wait for more then 25 years to come out again. Next? Gentle Giant? Perhaps...

Progger wrote: I don't know why some some punk artists turned against prog. Mick Jones of The Clash was a hippie at school & listened to Yes ect. It's in a Clash biography!

I think it was an attitude thing. Mainly it was the critics we should blame. They still destroy our playground, these damned critics

lostrom wrote: gdub411 wrote: lostrom wrote: Progs enemy number one was not punk! It was the most evil of all...I dare not say it, but I must......: DISCO Prog's biggest enemy was prog itself. The musicians of that era lost interest and decided to make some money. No, no, no...my dear friend...that was NOT the case...I was a teen during that period, and I know from many sources, that this is not the case. Please, what you believe in is a myth! The truth is, if we're gonna be serious...the truth is that they where forced to change their music by the "winds of time". They were forced! Some musicians paniced, for example Gene Clark (ex The Byrds). He once said in an interviev that: "Suddenly, in just one year or so, everything changed. Big stars hardly got their tickets sold anymore. The record-companies demanded hit-singles and beat-drums. It was hard for me even to get a gig. All was about this punk! Everything else was just not in fashion anylonger". So, the dinasours did fell, but thay fell while being attacked. Some quit, but most of them just tried to survive. Van der graaf Generator had to wait for more then 25 years to come out again. Next? Gentle Giant? Perhaps...

Yeah, there is some truth to what you say but there were still prog bands cropping up in the late 70's. It was that our most popular ones all seemed to move into the pop direction which I am sure was spurred on by the record company execs....Pink Floyd is the one case where your theory doesn't fit.

I see your point of view as well

Prog died because counterculture died. Punk wasn't just thrust on the masses, it came as a reaction to dying counterculture. Punk is not nearly as bad as disco/techno. Punk is a sort of iconoclastic reaction to society. Prog was an intelligent reaction. Disco was much more anti-prog than punk. Punk had a social conscience, however ill-expressed and dimwitted it may be. Disco was thudding, conformist rhythm, constant, unchanging. It had no conscience, no purpose other than dancing. On a side note, punk was not like it is today, really. It had a point, it was a reaction against what they saw as the enemy. They saw prog as that enemy, and they were, of course, fairly blind, but hey, any reaction is better than complete resignation and loss of conscience. Punk today is pop, with no purpose. Especially Blink 182s brand of it, and their ilk. Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols may be considered a genius, as close as you get in punk. His influences included Peter Hammill, Can, and Capt. Beefheart. That's where the "Nadir's Big Chance" thing came in, he was influenced by it, and began punk.

Prog is a sort of hidden, unknown influencer of all good music. Most "extremely good/legendary/universal" songs have a prog influence, like "Sgt. Peppers" (the whole thing), "Kashmir", "Stairway to Heaven", "Paranoid Android", a lot of stuff by the Who, etc.

Oh, and prog punk bands. There is such a thing: The Cardiacs, The Mars Volta, numerous bands which I've never heard but have heard of such as Primus, and Green Day to a certain very small infintesimal way only visible in their descision to write two 9-minute multimovement songs in a concept album. They could be pop punk prog, which emphasis on the first two words.

Try to resist posting things saying "GREEN DAY ISNT PROG THEY DONT SHOW ANY HINT OF IT". I'm not saying that they are, or do. I said, the only influence they may have is the two 9 minute songs and the concept. That's it.

By definition, such a thing is an oxymoron -- a contradiction in terms. As soon as they're "progressive," they're no longer "punk."

still....

The Stranglers? (Could be....)

 Latter-day Clash?

The Damned -- check out "Under the Floor Again" -- killer tune, lots of depth!

(sorry Reed -- just read your post -- you said it first!)

Well, punk could be used as the "style". Take the ethos of punk, the sound, the feel, and combine it with the complexity, intelligence, and intentions of prog, and there you go. Plus, without prog punk, what would we use to define the style the Mars Volta play?

But who really cares, music is music. If its good, it's bad, and if it's bad, it's good. Or so thinks Ozzy Osbourne of our opinions of music, the old sellout.

James Lee wrote: It's a good thing we have punk to blame, or maybe we'd be forced to recognize that the original prog scene was already starting to run out of steam...

Exactly!

The 80s (actually, approx 76-77 to 86-87) were NOT a lost decade, musically! The best of those so-called "hair" bands revitalized music, opened up the market, and broadened people's tastes.

That was the music of my late teens to mid 20s, and I had a GREAT time!

Take Abbath wrote: 'Progressive Punk" is an oxymoron. Like "Good Dream Theater".

Or "progressive metal."

I just have to question the statement that punk was so in fashion that proggers couldn't get gigs...punk did not have a single high-grossing touring band, and no punk band ever sold albums in the numbers that AOR rock bands were selling before, during, or after the '77-'80 height of punk. Dark Side remained on the charts, and Rush continued to be selling out stadiums worldwide. So economically, it can't have been punk that killed prog. QED.

The 'damage' was mainly to the fashionable element...and let's face it, we progheads don't want anybody who isn't in it for the music, anyway!

Punk was just another fashion in a fenomenom, popular music, that was becoming more and more chained to "teen fashion" and the market. Punkers believed they were doing stuff against the market, instead they invented the 100 percent commercial musica, in the sense that you do't have to rellay "understand it", just buy it, and let's start the pogo dance.It's like potato chips, open them up and eat and shut up.

Anyway, here is a punk-prog album that strangely enough, nobody cited

Robert Fripp's "Exposure"

That's definitely it. Just listen to "Disengage" or the "ramounesque" "You burn me up a cigarette"......

If I think  punk is commercial, this isn't strictly punk, just because Hammill screams like a madman and Fripps just rape his Les Paul. I think it's more of bringing down to the essential what the Crims has always done: fluctuating music between violence and love.

Great lp............

I think the core of both prog and punk is rebellion against the average, boring, run-of-the-mill popular music. Prog tends to go towards refinement and complexity while punk tends to go towards rawness and simplicity. These two approaches may seem to contradict each other but they can be combined and the result can often be awesome.

Some of my favourite examples:

• PETER HAMMILL - Nadir's Big Chance
• PETER HAMMILL - The Future Now
• DOCTORS OF MADNESS - Figments of Emanicipation
• ROBERT FRIPP - Exposure (featuring P. Hammill, P. Gabriel a.o.)
• THE STRANGLERS - In Concert (feat. Hammill, Fripp, Steve Hillage a.o.)
• TOYAH - Sheep Farming in Barnet
• TOYAH - The Blue Meaning
• CARDIACS - The complete discography
• STUMP - A Fierce Pancake
• THINKING PLAGUE - A Thinking Plague

lostrom wrote: The Stranglers, The Sound, Twelfth Night (?), Violent Femmes, Echo & the Bunnymen....close enough..

Echo and the Bunnymen...Punk?...never! ( not Television either)....in fact not even The Stranglers excepy for a couple of tracks.

The Cardiacs - they have been mentioned by several people - are a school-example of prog punk. Progpunk in the flesh.

Simply put, art punk is to punk as prog rock is to rock. Although the vast majority even of art punk bands aren't so inventive as first wave prog, I still like a fair bit. Nomeansno are an interesting listen (funky/jazz punk, although some of their material veers more toward straight up punk). Television have an original sound; although not progressive in a traditional sense, it tends to wander a bit (17 verses in a song?). People have mentioned the Cardiacs - like The Mars Volta they embrace prog in a more "traditional" sense. Ruins mix zeuhl with punk on their latest album, and even their earlier stuff is fairly original.

Math rock is more akin to punk than anything else, and if you're into odd time signatures, you'll find plenty there - there was a thread about this some time ago.

Mategra wrote: I think the core of both prog and punk is rebellion against the average, boring, run-of-the-mill popular music. Prog tends to go towards refinement and complexity while punk tends to go towards rawness and simplicity. These two approaches may seem to contradict each other but they can be combined and the result can often be awesome. Some of my favourite examples: PETER HAMMILL - Nadir's Big Chance PETER HAMMILL - The Future Now DOCTORS OF MADNESS - Figments of Emanicipation ROBERT FRIPP - Exposure (featuring P. Hammill, P. Gabriel a.o.) THE STRANGLERS - In Concert (feat. Hammill, Fripp, Steve Hillage a.o.) TOYAH - Sheep Farming in Barnet TOYAH - The Blue Meaning CARDIACS - The complete discography STUMP - A Fierce Pancake THINKING PLAGUE - A Thinking Plague

At last - another Stump fan!!

Anyone ever heard The Very Things?

Marquee Moon, Early Ultravox, Police 1st Album, Velvet Underground anyone???!?, Stranglers Ratus Norvegicus, Specials 2nd (lost) album, Daevid Allen - Banana Moon (he INVENTED the punk vocal dont you know) & yes, early Floating Anarchy. And lets not forget Zappa's iconoclasm.

Borealis wrote: What about Instrumental Rap?

Hmm, there exists at least one (almost entirely)instrumental hip-hop track: Buckethead - Mausoleum Door.

Inferno wrote: Coheed and Cambria could be Considered as a "ProgPunk" With a Emo feel in it. Thrice too could be considered a "ProgPunk" Band. They have a lot of technical riff in their music and use a awful lot the 5/4 time signature Still, it's a good band!

Thrice and COCa both can suck my arse.

Poxx wrote: Borealis wrote: What about Instrumental Rap?  Hmm, there exists at least one (almost entirely)instrumental hip-hop track: Buckethead - Mausoleum Door.

Also Atmosphere's instrumental album... Its actually called that im pretty sure.

Reed Lover wrote: I guess, you should stop guessing.  Progressive Punk is as clear an oxymoron you are going to find in music.

Damn straight. Punk is all about politics and simplicity. Prog is for spirituality and texture; ability; and technique. Mixing the two is disasterous. Check out Green Day's 'punk opera' American Idiot. They are the idiots.

If Green Day is what you think of as punk, of course you're not going to be impressed- they're a pop band with some 4th generation punk influence. As for simplicity...Eno? Kraftwerk? Fripp? Doesn't get more simple than that, but they managed to work in the texture quite well. There's a lot more to musical expression than overt instrumental virtuosity.

BTW: I'm glad someone mentioned Nomeansno.

Crimson Prince wrote: Damn straight. Punk is all about politics and simplicity. Prog is for spirituality and texture; ability; and technique. Mixing the two is disasterous. Check out Green Day's 'punk opera' American Idiot. They are the idiots.

Since they don't play either punk or prog, it's barely an issue.

Souxsie & the Banshees:

Check out their albums Hyeana and Tinderbox. Definite prog elements on both. Brilliant albums from a rarely discussed band. Their 70's output was closer to raw ounk, but had elements of Curved Air. Souxsie was a big fan.

KIlling Joke:

Their albums 'Brighter than a thousand suns' and 'Outside the gate' in particular. The latter is arguably a prog rock album, and nothing to do with punk.

PIL:

The album 'Happy' which is sadly deleted now, had a very prog feel, especially the tracks 'Seattle' and 'Save me' Lydons fave band of all time was VDGG.

Blacksword wrote: Souxsie & the Banshees: Check out their albums Hyeana and Tinderbox. Definite prog elements on both. Brilliant albums from a rarely discussed band. Their 70's output was closer to raw ounk, but had elements of Curved Air. Souxsie was a big fan. KIlling Joke: Their albums 'Brighter than a thousand suns' and 'Outside the gate' in particular. The latter is arguably a prog rock album, and nothing to do with punk. PIL: The album 'Happy' which is sadly deleted now, had a very prog feel, especially the tracks 'Seattle' and 'Save me' Lydons fave band of all time was VDGG.

I'bve heard Johnny Rotten was very into Peter Hammill.  Was that the only prog he liked?

Seyo wrote: I dont see any reason why punk and prog should be in contradiction, again genre tags are only invented by press to easily categorize music and sell it to the people.

Genre tags also allow listeners to describe what they are actually listening to.

Being as punk all but killed off the prog boom of the 70's, I would view anyone claiming to meld the two with the most extreme of skeptecism.

I have not read all posts (probably the first 15) but to me the only historical prog punk band would be the Police. Sting was a jazzman, Andy Somers had been around the the greats of prog since 67 (played in Soft Machine , the new Animals , with Fripp) and Stewart Copeland (brother of Miles the producer) had played with Curved Air.

And those  SMBBWMSP (stupid & mindless brutish British weekly music press - NME and MM and even sadly Sounds) journalists accepted it without knbowing who those guys were. Had they found out , they might have tried to reject them.

NetsNJFan wrote: Blacksword wrote: Souxsie & the Banshees: Check out their albums Hyeana and Tinderbox. Definite prog elements on both. Brilliant albums from a rarely discussed band. Their 70's output was closer to raw ounk, but had elements of Curved Air. Souxsie was a big fan. KIlling Joke: Their albums 'Brighter than a thousand suns' and 'Outside the gate' in particular. The latter is arguably a prog rock album, and nothing to do with punk. PIL: The album 'Happy' which is sadly deleted now, had a very prog feel, especially the tracks 'Seattle' and 'Save me' Lydons fave band of all time was VDGG. I'bve heard Johnny Rotten was very into Peter Hammill.  Was that the only prog he liked?

I'm not certain, although I think he may have been into Hwkwind too. A number of those old punks were. Anyone in punk who could actually play an instrument probably came from a rock background.