Why are we such bigots? (or are we?)
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Topic: Why are we such bigots? (or are we?)
Posted By: fighting sleep
Subject: Why are we such bigots? (or are we?)
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 17:41
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I'm not sure if this topic belongs here, but I'm wondering if I'm alone in my defense of other genres of music besides prog, particularly rap/hip-hop and country/folk music. These genres seem to take regular blows from members of this community, and the only reason I can think of to account for this is the bulk of garbage that is the mainstream music scene. Nowadays it seems rare to me that rock albums composed entirely of worthwhile songs ever float to the top, especially in popular music. We have to dig deep sometimes for music that is either truly fantastic or speaks to us on a personal level. That's why this site is so great to me. However, the same applies to other genres of music. I've been listening to a lot of rap and hip hop recently, and I love what I've managed to find that I like because there is a lot of creativity in the music some of these underground and alternative artists are doing. Mike Patton has done some fantastic stuff (Peeping Tom, General Patton vs. the X-ecutioners), and so have Dalek and Atmosphere. I will continue to explore rap because there's a lot of talent that I don't think I've discovered yet. And country/folk done right is fantastic too. Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, Wilco, Leonard Cohen; these are all praiseworthy artists. Once again, there are probably plenty of other artists that are overshadowed by the terrifying awfulness of the pop-country singers  So I pose my question to those people who don't have a problem with writing off rap or country with insulting comments; can you justify that level of bigotry with actual experience listening to the music? I'm looking for reasonable arguments against accepting these forms of music. And to the main body of the community: what do progressive rock listeners think of these genres and our attitudes toward them? Feel free to move/remove this post if it doesn't quite fit in this forum. |
Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 17:55
Don't worry, your thread is in the right section ! Anyway, thank you for presenting your argument in such a well-reasoned, respectful way - these days it is no mean feat. As a long-time music lover, though prog is by far my favourite genre, I think you can find something worthy of listening in almost any genre - unless we're talking about plasticky, mass-produced stuff created to sell and then be forgotten within the space of a few months. Personally, while I will never understand the need to bash what one does not like, be it prog or not, I suppose that for some people it is a way to feel superior to the 'unwashed masses', even if they have no clue as to what they are talking about. As regards the examples you have used in your post, though I know very little about rap, I can tell you that Micky, my husband, is a big fan of Willie Nelson, and sometimes plays his music here at home. While I cannot say it is precisely my cup of tea, I recognise he has a great voice, and his music has nothing whatsoever to do with what nowadays passes as 'country'. Bashing a whole genre just because of its worst manifestations is narrow-minded to say the least - and believe me, there would be a whole lot of bashing to be done as regards prog too. One thing is for sure: I'd take good pop any day over bad prog. |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 18:04
 I'll just say one thing: there are no good or bad genres, there's only good or bad music! |
Raff wrote:Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 18:23
| I can't say I'm a big country fan (the Dixie Dregs is the closest to country I listen to, but they have more of a bluegrass influence), but I don't dismiss the genre entirely. However, I like quite a few rap and hip hop artists. The Beastie Boys are certainly among my top 10 of all time favorite music acts. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 18:48
| you should try Tech 9ne his an amazngly skilled underground rapper (the moust famous underground rapper actually), i also have a soft spot for Rap before 1999 (with some few exeptions like Eminem) the best periode in rap/hiphop is betwean 1990 - 1997 in my humble opinion, my favorits are Outkast witch i find is the moust fresh and original of the moust famous rap artist the are very experimental al ther records from 93 to 2006 are amazing and classics) they pick influence from Parlament/Funcadelics, Bootsy Collins, Sly n the family stons and have hip hop combining elemnts from funk, jazz, r.n.b (the real stuff not the 00s copycats), rock and ofcourse real drums and intruments. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 18:56
Seconded. Now I'm off to seach for some good Crunk and Emo. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: Matthew T
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 19:00
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I love country music. It is one of the first types of music I heard as a child. Without Hank Williams we would not have had the genre of Honky Tonk in Country and from that genre sprang Rockabilly. Without Rockabilly Sam Philips may well have not bothered to open Sun Studios. The list of early Rock and Roll and country greats that got their start there is the whos who of music in the States as well as around the world. Modern music including prog would not be the same without Hanks Contribution.
I love all music as you all may have noticed and whatever anybody likes thats okay by me and besides sometimes you find great music and I always try to listen to an album and judge it on talent and effort and not what people perceive as good music or say about the artist. I will even give Britany Spears a go. You should never knock anything unless you have heard it.
Variety will always be my Genre with the Lot  ------------- Matt |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 19:01
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I think every genre has the capacity to be bold, brilliant, and innovative. For me personally and what I subjectively enjoy in music, prog is the best pick. But there are all sorts of good artists from plenty of different genres, if you look hard enough, and even if I don't like them I can at least respect what they do. I think country and hip-hop are the most targeted (just about anywhere, not only here) because the mainstream variants of each set themselves up for an easy fall. If you're in the mood to take someone down, a guy who sings about how great his truck is or how Texas is the best country in the world, or some dude who's rapping about how big his rims are and how he's gonna cap you with an AK-47 is a pretty easy target. You don't have to put a whole lot of thought, time, or effort into insulting them - they more or less do it for you. |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 19:49
Good music is good music, no matter what category or genre we place it. Saying that, I have to admit that I do have preferences. I defended country music on another forum even though I generally don't like it. At te same time, Chet Atkins, who used to play for Hank Williams, became a legend in his own lifetime, and an institution in himself for the guitar.  A person who searches for appealing and sophisticated music will tend ot become very biased towards it once found. This is the case with many proggers, I think.------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 19:55
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 21:16
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I for one refuse to be a snob or musical bigot. There's a lot of stuff out and sure some of it crap. But just because I don't like something, doesn't automatically make it crap. Unless it's not Scottish.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 22:28
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we're not bigots, we're snobs- a bigot rejects things unlike himself, a snob is at least inclusive of all things he appreciates |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 22:36
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Perpetual myth of the snobbish prog fan.... Please take 5 minutes of your time and visit this site: http://zip.4chan.org/mu/imgboard.html - http://zip.4chan.org/mu/imgboard.html Look at all the prog fans snobbing up that place! Bonus points: start a topic about Prog and see what happens. Extra bonus troll points: start a topic on Magma and see what happens. Ridiculous bonus troll points: Harry gets mad at me for linking to that site.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 22:57
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Why bigots or even snobs?
Because we know what we like and whar we don't like?
There are lots of music I like, there's outstanding Pop, excellent mainstream Rock, Hard Rock, Metal, Jazz, Fusion, Country, Folk even some Punk..
But I don't like Rap or Hip Hop, I don't have to like everything, if you like rap and Hip Hop good for you, but don't judge people for not liking everything, I don't consider Rap as music, but some sort of street poetry with music in the background, and Hip Hop the worst thing that happened to music....And what about it?
I'm sure there's lots of music you don't like.
BTW: Bigotry is an offensive term related mainly with intollerance or hatred against an ethnic, racial or religious group, so shouldn't be used to qualify people who simply know what they like and what they don't.
Iván
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Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 22:59
Does this mean I can watch Americal Idol next season and not be arrested by the Prog Po Po? 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 23:06
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I miss the days when there was no politically correct and you were allowed to say you like A and not B without having to apologize for having a defined taste. The press, the DJ's, most musical sites and magazines are allowed to say that Prog is crap and they sell more, there's even a site that qualifies ELP as the worst band ever. I'm sure that in no POP site people jump to defend Prog when the music we like is attacked...why must we? Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 23:11
because we're not bigots |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 23:15
I don't say we must attack them, but if I'm asked in a PROG site, what kind of music i don't like, i must be free to give my opinion about the issue without having to feel embarassed of my taste.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 23:30
Agreed. ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Posted By: soundsweird
Date Posted: June 23 2009 at 23:59
| I have a quite varied music collection which includes a lot of folk and country music, though I'll admit most of it came out before the 80's. However, none of my thousands of albums (CD, vinyl & cassette) are rap/hip-hop. This is music that is dependent upon attitude, and, much like metal, the vocals are always "in your face". Why would I want to have somebody standing 4 inches from my face, yelling at me? Another point: this is music that is 99% rhythm; I have an article out of a Dallas newspaper from a few years ago that detailed a study by scientists wherein subjects' brain activity was scanned while various types of music were played. Classical music with melody and counterpoint caused several areas of the brain to "light up", while simple 4/4 rhythms with no musical accompaniment resulted in only one tiny area of the brain to be stimulated. I haven't heard the Mike Patton stuff mentioned by the originator of the post, although I love some other things he's done, so I can only go by what rap/hip-hop I've heard. To me, the lyrics are cliched and simplistic, which doesn't cut it for me. I think many people need their music to "rock" (I don't), and so rap/hip-hop fills that void. BTW, I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot more bad prog than good, no genre gets a free pass from me. |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 00:16
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Darn it, don't we already have 5001 threads on this that are already failing hard enough??? There's is nothing wrong with liking something better than something else. This PC crap is already bad enough in politics, why do we need it in a music forum??? |
Posted By: hitting_singularity2
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 00:36
I would have been perfectly fine with that post except for "I don't consider Rap as music, but some sort of street poetry with music in the background, and Hip Hop the worst thing that happened to music....And what about it?" take a look at the brilliant explenation of rap/hip-hip by Anderson III which i beleive you should have read already. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58805&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58805&PN=1 |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:12
I respect but don't agree with Anderson III's opinion, and I base it in a couple of points:
Not unique or remarcable, I find it mediocre and forced, they are just speaking fast, some of them use several moods but so poetry,.
Poetrywith music is not new, García Lorca did it almost one century ago with great poems and excellent music, not threatening and insulting everybody or blaming against the system while using gold chains n the neck that could feed a small country.
If you want to go even further in the past, you could gp to the Medieval age, when travelling troubadours useed a basic melody with flute, lute and tambourine to tell stories.
And despite the melodic baxckground this stories or the Lorca `poems were forms of narration or poetry in which the voice is used with certain rhythm and different moods.
And of course, the lack of an important elements of music in Rap as melody, disqualifies it in most cases
Not accurate either, there's music in whicgh the vocals don't follow the melody, Gentle Giant (a band I don't like) uses absolutely dissonant vocals that have little if any relation with the melody that is played by the instruments, both melody and vocals go by different paths, but there's melody in the song, unlike in rap.
And nothing new, you can listen dissonant vocals in early Rock bands as The Mamas & the Papas, a group of musicians with no Prog relation.
Have yo ever heard OSIBISA?
That's rhythm put into rhyme, but with a strong melody to complement the fantastic rhythms.
I find nothing beautiful in rap, maybe I'm wrong but it'sm my taste.....Sorry, but this is my 100% honest opinion. Iván -------------
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:27
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I listen to a lot of music : funk, world, folk, jazz, classical, blues, metal, pop/rock, soul...
Prog has a lot to offer but many gems stem from other musical genres.
Regarding country/ bluegrass/ rockabilly/alt-country, I love quite a lot of artists : emmylou harris, albert lee (who incidentally released a jazz-fusion tainted rockabilly album with Chad Wackerman : 'speechless' and is featured on two steve morse band albums), new riders of the purple sage, commander cody & his lost plant airmen, pure prairie league, newgrass revival, poco, johnny cash but also steve earle, lucinda williams (first two albums), the jayhawks, linda ronstadt, guy clark, townes van zandt, nitty gritty dirt band, tarantella, 16horsepower, jay munly, curtis eller's american circus, myssouri, hyacinth house, marcel dadi, leon russell, gene clark, the byrds' 'sweetheart of the rodeo', bob dylan...
Regarding rap, I liked a time Run-DMC but it doesn't click with me anymore. Same with beastie boys. The main problem is with vocals, as someone pointed out it requires some technical abilities but it does the same effect as an unending guitar or drum solo : it annoys me to death and prompts me to skip to the next track, but in the case of rap, it lasts from beginning to the end of the album...Rap works when combined with metal : Slayer witth Ice-T (who rather sang than rapped), Anthrax with Public Enemy and the excellent hardcore band Biohazard. Some pop/prog artists like Peter Gabriel and Gavin Castleton released one album with some rap vocals ('ovo' for the first, 'Home' for the second), and I really think it spoils the overall mood of their respective album.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:47
I agree with Ivan, Bigotry is absolutely the wrong word. How can you be called a bigot for not liking Rap or whatever. Its ridiculous!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: meptune
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:50
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I for one have been accused of being a musical biggot simply because I champion prog as my favorite genre. However, I can counter that accusation with the evidence of my record collection. I have, country, rap, disco, zydeco, pop, blues, reggae, classical, baroque, do-wop, opera, ethnic, broadway, and God only knows what else in the stacks. I just really like prog. That doesn't make me a biggot, it just says I have a preference.
On that note, I'll point out that there is a difference between preference and quality. I prefer Hostess Twinkies to fine French pastries. I would never suggest that Twinkies are of a higher quality simply on the basis of my preference. On the contrary, I know they're crap and I don't care. I simply prefer them. It's a matter of taste. ------------- 
"Arf, she said" |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 01:55
Lets here it for Twinkies and all crap food we love evrywhere! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:08
| ^ I have to have McDonald's once a month or so |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:09
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I find most metal AND rap unbearably uncouth, but that's got nothing to do with bigotry, it's inherent in those genres themselves. I mean, they're loved by their fans because ther ARE loud, rough and uncouth.
As I don't live in the USA, I'm not much bothered by country, but I used to be suspicious of everything that was even INFLUENCED by it. Now THAT was bigotry! Age twenty, back in the days of Joy Division and the Talking Heads, I didn't want to come across as a hick. Now that I'm more than twice that old I can do what I please and I'll gladly listen to Emmylou Harris, or to acts that are (occasionally) country-inspired, like Ry Cooder or Little Feat. True bigotry means despising Hot Chocolate, Michael Jackson or the Bee Gees because their music is "commercial". I find their best tunes irresistible and their arrangements great. Once again, this is something I'd never have admitted in 1978! But nowadays I see no reason why they should be inferior to "prog" classics like "I've seen all good people" or "Locomotive Breath". Same inventivity, same sophistication. I DO draw the line at totally manufactured artists like Madonna or Celine Dion, though. I simply can't stand their putrid smell. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:20
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 06:25
Funny, because if you met me in real life you'd find I'm not a violent person and I'm quite shy and not very talkative, let alone loud. Yet I like metal and rap. ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 06:58
I have to second what Harry just said. In the Eighties I used to be very much into metal, and hung out with metal fans in Rome. Yet, just like Harry, I am a very polite person, quite well-educated and well-spoken, and anything but violent. Ah, generalizations  .... |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 07:24
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I could be wrong here, but I think what Fuxi was saying was not that the fans are loud, rough & uncouth, but the appeal of metal is that the music is loud, rough & uncouth.
As a long time metal fan myself, I know its raw power & agression is (when done well) a large factor in my enjoyment... ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 07:33
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You may be right, Jim, but that sentence is not clear at all. Now, I may not be a native speaker of English, but Harry is, and he understood it in the same way as I did. Anyway, I don't agree with metal being 'rough and uncouth' by definition. For instance, I find a band like Queensryche very sophisticated, both lyrically and musically, and Iron Maiden's Bruce Dickinson is a very literate man, with a history degree, and a writer to boot. Many metal bands have very interesting, thought-provoking lyrics, and here on this site we have quite few examples of bands whose music goes way beyond mere power and aggression. One has the right to dislike the music, but I think stereotyping is always wrong. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 07:39
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Absolutely Raff - but I'd always differentiate between Metal & prog metal; to my ears, metal means bands such as Motorhead, Priest, System Of A Down & so on.
I remember many many arguments in my youth trying to differentiate between heavy metal, heavy rock & hard rock
But that's away from the point...
Back to the original quote - I think had Fuxi meant the fans he would have said "they're loved by their fans because THEY are loud, rough and uncouth" as opposed to "they're loved by their fans because they ARE loud, rough and uncouth" A small distinction, I know, but as I say, I could be wrong... -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 10:07
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Hi,
I don't think, that anyone here is a bigot ...
What we have here is "FANS" ... and they do not like to hear that their favorite band is not this or that, or worse ... not good enough and not prog. Even if the term is meaningless and its definition is something that is imaginary and fits into the area of Harry Potter much more than it does music ... but I guess that when you don't know that idiot magic does not matter or hurt anyone, compared to the real thing ... you think the same way about your favorite music ... how could it not be "real music"?
In general, to my ear it is all valid music and every single band has a right to play what they wish to play ... what I don't think those bands, or any bunch of fans, do not have a right to do, is tell people what to do and believe in ... I have no issues about you telling me your God stories ... but I do when you say that you know God and I don't. Or you say that Rush is prog and Amon Duul 2 is not.
It's a fine line, and I do believe that the bottom line is how much care and respect we have for someone's opinion, and how that person backs it up ... if all you can tell me that something is prog just because you like it ... it's not gonna hold much weight ... but if you can a really good description and informational analyzys of the work that explains what you think, I do believe that your point has merit.
Bigotry is when you quote a book for reality ... in other words you don't really believe it anyway ... to the point where you have to quote someone else ... not yourself! So .. I ask myself ... why would you do that to a band and music that you love?
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 10:32
if you can show me some rap / hip-hop that does NOT have that, in my opinion, boring underlying steady beat, I'd be quite willing to listen to it, though I must admit I dislike the way the vocals are delivered in these bands too, but that's probably because of this steady beat. I have nothing at all against the spoken word (the lyrics are usually of rap or hip-hop are usually delivered in a sprechgesang), but I dislike it when they speak in a way that totally follows the steady beat of the music. it is too predictable for my taste. there is of course also the question if music without that steady beat could still be called rap or hip-hop, since it seems to be one of the defining elements of it -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:20
you can defend rap as long you wish, BUT it is music to be bashed  . i don't like rap at all, to be more precise i don't consider rap as music , just a few beats and some annoying singing(if it could be called singing at all,i doubt) . and why bigots? for not liking rap? there is nothing in rap to be liked after all IMO. and those lyrics and rappers attitude is other thing i hate most .. chicks , cars, money, houses, insults..no form of art in rap i could notice.. and i cannot love all forms of music, what would be like if i like them all at once Britney Spears, 50 cent, Eminem, Justin Timberlake, Rush, Dimmu Borgir , ..well this is not possible , so someone is MAKING music and succeding , other ones just TRYING to make music ,but failing ..
i have to defend Metal here , as long time being Metal fan .. so un·couth 1. Crude; unrefined. 2. Awkward or clumsy; ungraceful. 3. Archaic Foreign; unfamiliar. i found this definition for uncouth , and totally disagree , you are generalizing that's not good , and Metal being uncouth pfffffff .. i wouldn't agree with this for anything in the world even being put on guillotine with few seconds left for living.. there are various types of metal , and if you are implying for ex . brutal death ,grindcore, raw black metal to be uncouth, so you could listen Prog Metal,Doom metal .. maybe it could change your views about metal.. Fans ARE loud, rough and uncouth??? i don't know how did you came with this conclusion, but totaly wrong .. i 'am just the opposite of these characteristics of yours and here is a suggestion for you to check .. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:23
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Summoning are great! I also recommend Drudkh.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:28
| ^^ Drudkh are awesome , superb black metal, with many folkish and Prog influences .. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:34
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BLUT AUS NORD ------------- 
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Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 11:42
| ^^ their last album Memoria Vetusta II Dialogue With The Stars is just fantastic, i am starting to like this band |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 12:41
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It isn't bigotry to dislike other types of music - perhaps the wrong word to use, but I do certainly loathe personally rasp/hip hop and mass produced pulp pop. To me it is like the difference between Jilly Cooper or Jackie Collins (mass produced pulp novels) to good literature. The former I hate, the latter I enjoy and relish. That is not to say that the consumers of such stuff are automatically inferior. At the end of the day, Simon Cowell has made an absolute fortune from producing pop to millions. I might not like it, but I long ago gave up trying to fight it - probably about the same time I realised that the UK wasn't going to have the promised revolution after all  I do, though, take great exception to the misogyny that is present in much rap, present day pop videos, and hip hop. I'm not a prude, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like my son to grow up with a healthy respect for women, and not just see them as a fantasy piece gyrating for all and sundry to ogle. I am just an unashamed snob when it comes to TV, music, and literature. Not a bigot, just a snob. Now then...can someone promise me that revolution?  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 13:38
And don't get me started on those nasty Neptunians. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: June
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 13:55
I don't listen to rap and hip-hop precisely because the few mainstream/MTV songs I've heard didn't speak to me. And in some cases, I've found the videos down right offensive... I haven't bothered to listen to more. I guess I should, but there's so many other styles I wish to investigate further and that particular genre is just not on my priority list.
As for folk and country, well, folk is one of my favourite genre, but I was pretty stubborn when it came to country music, and really didn't want to listen to any of it, except for Johnny Cash and The Carter Family, but it just sneaked up on me. I got two Sonny Landreth (who I'm completely in awe of) albums 2 weeks ago and had a bit of a shock when I realised, loading them onto my computer, that iTunes actually lists him as "country".
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:03
| The thing is, the thread starter brought forward a few examples of 'good' rap, which I remember being mentioned here on PA on other occasions by people who know a thing or two about music. I'm quite sure no one would mention the worst gangsta rap in order to defend the genre - from the little I know, it is 'music' that degrades women and promotes violence, so it would get the big thumbs-down from me anyway. I can understand disliking the style, though - this is a very personal thing, as I know very well, having a very particular approach to music. As much as I know that Willie Nelson is miles and miles above what passes for 'country' today, that particular musical style is just not my cup of tea, and I'd rather listen to something else altogether. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:23
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i agree with the spirit of your post Raff.
 But I disagree that there can be a judge of "good rap" vs "bad rap". Even women-degrading rap, as you call it, might have fans, even violence-promoting rap might have fans... all of that is very sociological and needs deeper analisys... What I'm trying to say is, we may not like something, but that doesn't mean we can judge what other people like. Prog fans are not bigots. They're just jealous of the commercial fortunes popular artists have. Why? Because it makes us feel special. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:35
Teo, I like you very much, but I'm not a sociologist, so don't expect deeper sociological analyses from me. I am almost 20 years older than you are, and am well aware that even the worst music can have fans. Anyway, I am not judging anything, and would be grateful if people could read what I have written before they disagree with me on principle. And I don't care two hoots about feeling special... If some prog fans have that attitude, it's their business, not mine. I just like what I like, that's all. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:35
"A Boy Named Sue" is rap, although they didn't call it that at the time. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:44
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I agree that genre alone can never be the basis for discrimination. There are some rap and country tunes that I would listen to before some prog tunes (given the choice between Beastie Boys and Tormato, for one obvious example)... But, it does seem that with rap and country, the most awful stuff seems to float to the top of the charts, whereas in prog, I generally do enjoy the bands that seem to be most popular amongst prog fans... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 14:57
GOD DAMN IT STONEBEARD! ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 15:09
*Responds with meme* ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 15:17
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I was just addressing a point about your post Raff, the "makes us feel special" part is not about you, who have made it clear you are not like that. Actually, I used "US" because at one point in life I also had those ridiculous ideas which I see everywhere in the forum these days... -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 15:22
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Oh, I have a lot of ridiculous ideas myself - just not about prog, that is!
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 16:39
Even that's not true. Music is art, and quality of art is based purely on opinions alone. And what makes one person's opinion more valuable than another's? On topic, I love rap. I love the British scene above anything though, like Grime and British Garage. I also think that rap is even better when fused with rock music, a la Rage Against The Machine or Faith No More, although an example of this that never clicked with me would be LimpBizcit (or however the hell you spell it). At the moment I'm really getting into DnB with a heavy load of rap in it, like Roni Size or Chase and Status. Yep, I love rap. In fact, it's one of five genres that I listen to: Extreme Metal, Progressive Rock, DnB, Classical Music and finally Rap. And I also agree that there is a lot of creativity involved. Back when rap was in its infancy, there were some extremely poetic and intelligent lyrical content being thrown around. As far as Country/Folk music goes, I like a bit of folk. Old Gypsy folk though, the kind that Brahms employed into his Hungarian dances. Country music I never got on with however. Dunno why, it just didn't click with me. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: fighting sleep
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 19:34
Now, if you read my first post, you may notice that I asked for reasoned arguments for bigoted statements such as: "Hip Hop is the worst thing that happened to music". Frankly, that sort of thing is a bit irritating, and it's the reason why I started the thread in the first place. I'd like you to back that up with some clear cut logic, instead of vague generalizations. The problem is of course, you can't, since personal taste is very subjective, and one man's masterpiece is another's trash. The purpose of the thread, for you then, is to explain in an unoffensive way, why you feel the way you do about rap and hip hop. |
Posted By: fighting sleep
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 20:31
As for the "bigotry" comment, I can see people up in arms about it. Honestly, the title of the thread was just something I thought was both amusing and likely to get people to click on it. It's very easy to sell controversy on this site My main theme was not whether we're bigots, but what we think about these different genres of music. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 22:17
I don't think the bigotry is so much in disliking 'pop pulp' but in believing that the 'elitist' stuff one digs is inherently superior simply because of the genre of its origin. I will offer an example without meaning offence to fans of the band but you know, the bigotry in vehemently expressing one's dislike for pop and then claiming Another Day to be a masterpiece. I am not saying Another Day is a bad song and I hope my point is understood. I think it's important for the 'snob' to make that distinction, else he's more of a laughing 'stock'. To give an example from the world of books, I dig James Hadley Chase because as someone who aspires to be a writer, I'd love to be able to write that vividly, racily and crisply, doesn't waste a word, that man. On the other hand, I intensely disliked the one book of Jane Austen I read - namely Sense and Sensibility - because...eh, long story(or a litany of complaints?)!
So..what I am saying is that assuming Chase is terrible and Austen is brilliant purely on the strength of their genres is a mistake..at least I think it's a mistake. Beyond that, what one would prefer to read or listen to (as in music) is entirely one's business. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 03:38
I thank you, Jim, and I apologise for my sloppy writing. You were 100% right: I was referring to the music, not to the fans. Like nearly all of us I grew up with rock music, and I love certain albums because they are so loud, e.g. THE WHO LIVE AT LEEDS: part of the appeal is its sheer wildness. I once fell in love with a girl who happened to be a classical flautist. I wanted to turn her on to WHO'S NEXT, which is fairly aggressive (though not as rough as LIVE AT LEEDS) but also, to my ears, incredibly subtle, precise, exciting AND moving. You sometimes read the Who used to play with the precision of chamber musicians, and that's the way I've always felt myself. So I started from the start: "Baby O'Riley" - could she hear it was GLORIOUS? No, she could not. Then I played "My Wife" - wasn't that really exhilerating, just for the drumming? Apparently it was not. Only when I played her "Behind Blue Eyes" she seemed to melt a bit. At least until all hell broke loose towards the end. And this was not because she was a snob or a bigot. She was an incredibly nice person - intelligent, sensitive and spontaneous. But it was her tragedy (?) that she was only accustomed to music that was incredibly suble and refined (without getting sentimental). She had no ears for amplified music. I have a similar problem with metal. It's a dimension I do not move in. I've got no problem with Led Zep, ever since I learnt to live with Robert Plant's wail, and I enjoy, for example, the Mars Volta's early albums (which are pretty wild, but sufficiently varied and intricate) - but metal??? I KNOW its fans like it 'cause it's rough and uncouth, 'cause when I was in the army (oh Glory Days!) my roommate (who was also my best friend there) was an amateur heavy metal guitarist who enjoyed nothing more than playing Venom, Loudness, and early Metallica tapes, jumping up and down wildly in the room while banging his head forcefully against our metal locker! I got on really well with him, 'cause the music he enjoyed had far more character than the rubbish most of the other guys liked (there were two WHAM! freaks in our room) and yes, there were prog-like passages in it. Still, I've never been tempted to explore the collected works of Venom and Metallica. (Or even Iron Maiden, Queensryche and the like.) Life is too short, and I'm busy enough exploring other genres. The same goes for rap. If I wanted to, I'm sure I could become a rap aficionado and learn to appreciate the manifold ways rappers spout their words. But the relentless beat puts me off and if I feel like listening to poetry I'll get some British Library recordings instead! So does all this turn me into a "bigot"? Heaven forbid. It just seems that, as you explore certain alleys (and for me, in the past few decades, those alleys have led mainly to French and Italian baroque music, pre-romantic symphonies and oratorios, Berlioz operas, and post-1970 jazz of European origin) you turn your back to others. It simply cannot be helped. But each to his own! |
Posted By: GaryB
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 09:01
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"Intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions differing from his own".
Kinda sounds like a lot of posts I've read on every website forum I've ever been on.
I am intolerant of a lot of things but I seldom take offense. I am, however, offended by a lot of the lyrics in Rap, especially Gangsta Rap.
Do I feel that the music I listen to is better than most non-prog? You Bet! Why do you think I listen to it?
But that doesn't make me "cool" because I didn't create or perform the music, the bands I like did that. So that makes them "cool".
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 09:56
That's quite funny; it is about the same way Jean and I went too. Add some world music to it, like Rabih Abou-Khalil, Embryo, Roman Bunka or Roland Schaeffer, and that's about our musical taste. We both have some embarrassing skeletons in the closet too which I won't mention here and which only one of us likes. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 12:34
There's a problem, you can't justify why you love "A" girl and not "B" girl, despite "B" girl may be prettiest (according o the western society standards of course), more intelligent, kinder and better person, "A" girl may be a bad person, married (I know that I fell in love with te wrong woman more than once), or even not love you at all, but you are still in love.
There's no explanation for that you simply love "A" and hat's all....In the same way you can't explain clearly why you like Prog and not Hip Hop, but I will ry to make some statements.
I read thousands of posts in favour of Hip Hop here, and because I'm not an expert, I heard all the bands or artists mentioned as the best, and found nothing that really impressed me at all, by the cobrary, ggfoundmos of it hollow and the ones that had interestuing lyrics, were extremely violent and promoted vilolence. There must be some good Hip Hop artists, but I'm not willing to dig in a mountain of drivel to find one gem.
T I don't need a sociologist to know that promoting sexism, violence and degrading women is negative, they have fans and that's the problem, because it PROMOTES violence and negative values and it's availlable for everybody, mostly kids with incomplete formation that believe crap like b¡tches, nigga,
kill a cop on a solo mission; without a pair of gloves
Shot him in the face with a stolen biscuit Then wiped my fingerprints off real careful If you don't think you ready yet dog, just let the song prepare you Ill Bill - How To Kill A Cop * lyrics
http://www.lyrics007.com/Ill%20Bill%20Lyrics/How%20To%20Kill%20A%20Cop%20*%20Lyrics.html - http://www.lyrics007.com/Ill%20Bill%20Lyrics/How%20To%20Kill%20A%20Cop%20*%20Lyrics.html
Do you believe it's ok to feed kids with his crap?
Thuis should be banned for God's sake, and them people ask why there's so much violence.
Jealous?
Jealous of what?
I'm getting nothing for my taste, what could I be jealous about?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 12:36
I'm very glad to hear it! I don't know that much "World Music" but I love Abou-Khalil, Zap Mama and the Nenes (reggae-influenced pop from Okinawa). I recently bought Tom Moon's 1000 RECORDINGS TO HEAR BEFORE YOU DIE, which is very exciting and truly "catholic" in taste. In my view, there's a sufficient amount of prog in there, even Gong's GAZEUSE; the book's main defect is that no less than 6 (!!!) of those 1000 recordings are by the Beatles while the great Joseph Haydn gets only 1! Anyway, I now realise the time has come to dig much deeper into Brazilian music: Os Mutantes, Caetano Veloso, Tom Ze etc. etc.!
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 12:52
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Ivan, could you please not take everything so personal?
About the violence point, there's no point discussing it. You would never understand my point, and I would never see things the way you do. So why start an argument over hip-hop, which is not even the main subject of this forum?
I still fail to understand why prog fans hate commercial acts so much... a few explanations come to mind (and NO, Ivan, I'm not talking about you. I know you like Fleetwood Mac and Meat Loaf and etc etc etc.). Jealousy, frustration, envy, immaturity, superiority complex, sense of belonging, group-mentality, whatever positive or negative. I don't know. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:00
This is not personal T, it's my opinion
Theo, I'm sure you don't get my point, the day you go to a prisson because you have to do it to get a degree and try to councel a criminal who really believes this crap....You'll understand me.
This guy is giving detailled and coherent instructions of how to kill a policeman...That in my country is a crime.
I believe hardly anybody hates all commercial acts, most people don't like Prog, others don't like Rap and some don't like Pop, but hardly somebody hates them all.
And if somebody does it for superiority complex, we're talking about a poser.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:05
I am easily annoyed and having to listen to the same terrible, repetitive songs over and over drives me crazy. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:29
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P.S. Let's not forget:
Three cheers for Kante Manfila and Ali Farka Toure - superb musicians! |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:43
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One should think twice before using the term "commercial". The so-called "commercial" music exists because record companies like to play it safe, so following the same old pattern for producing albums is what they do. And they create "trends" in music, the problem of which is that the differences between them are often close to nil. I personally believe record companies underestimate the listeners; the sales-drop of records has not only to do with them being available as pirated online-bootlegs, it certainly has to do with their cautiousness too. I am very certain kids would like to listen to other music than that commercial crap; the problem is they hardly ever get a chance these days, so they don't know anything else. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:53
I think this is one of the best posts I've seen for a long time. Friede is absolutely right. I despair at the sheer amount of dross which is force fed on mainstream tv and radio. There are very few outlets for anything else, and in that sense, the so called choice agenda of piles of tv & radio channels has absolutely led to LESS choice for consumers, not more. Before the advent of satellite tv, there was actually a marvellous range of eclectic and diverse music on British television and radio. I speak, by the way, as a fan of modern technology. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:58
Teo, you know I consider you a friend, but I really don't understand why you have so much animosity towards 'prog fans' (not that you are the only one). I believe you have been here long enough to know that not all of the membership hates 'commercial acts'. I for one don't on principle, and neither does Micky. As a matter of fact, there are many of us who concur that good pop is way better than bad prog. Those few people who seem to worship 'pure prog' as a sort of supernatural entity are, thank heavens, a minority - though, as all too often happens, they can be the most vocal. Then, since you are a metal fan first and foremost, you should know very well that metalheads can be even worse than proggers - or at least they used to be when I hang out with them, in the mid-Eighties. That 'group mentality', that sense of belonging to a tightly-knit community (even if it is not true) is a characteristic I have found in a lot of places, not just amongst prog fans. |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 13:58
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Well to me there seems to be a musical cycle that has been going on, well, as long as there's been music, I suppose. It would appear that music starts off as a social sort of thing, something used to dance to, assist in telling stories or making statements, etc. However, after a while musician and listener both get bored of this, and start to crave something more. The music gradually grows in complexity and sophistication, with people experimenting and delighted fans lapping it up. However, many fans aren't very musical, and as a result have less developped ears than their musician counterparts. This usually means that music will reach a certain degree of complexity or experimentation that the fans are just alienated, they are no longer able to relate. As a result, there's a backlash against the deep stuff and music becomes a simple, social concept again. You see this all over the place: Jazz started out as a way for people to get their groove on in clubs, but overtime it grew and grew and musicians pushed it as far as it would go. Of course, by a certain point most people lost interest with jazz because it had simply become too heady, but then a man named Elvis Presley comes in and suddenly you've got music you can dance to again. That music, in turn, would slowly grow and become increasingly complex until you've got the Beatles and the 70s Prog movement, which enjoys a good amount of success until, again, it just goes too far for most people and suddenly Punk is in demand. Punk slowly gives way to the virtuosity of metal, which in turn gets replaced by the grunge scene of the 90s. I think we're still riding that wave now, I think that currently we're in that evolutionary stage where commercial music is pushing more and more boundaries and spreading its wings a bit. Probably within the next ten years it will have peaked and then been replaced again, but who knows what could happen? |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 14:17
In a world where simplistic music dominates, do you expect a return to even more simplistic music? |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 14:19
I sincerely doubt it, and contrary to you I don't see any signs of this happening. The problem is that music used to be an important topic in school, but today it has been degraded to a minor subject which (at least in Germany) can even be dropped completely once you reach tenth grade. And hardly any kids learn an instrument anymore. Fortunately this problem has been spotted in North Rhine-Westphalia, the federal state of Germany I live in. There now is an initiative called "For every kid an instrument", whose goal is exactly that, and it has started pretty well. Let's hope it will show some results in the future. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 25 2009 at 16:06
When I received my schedule in the University back in the 80's, we had to spend two years in General Studies (Phillosophy, Math, Linguistics, History, Literature, Theology etc) and it consisted of 72 credits, 52 of mandatory classes, 18 of Selective classesand 2 credits of activities.
We had Musical appreciation 101, 102 and103 as selectivec courses (9 credits in total), and most students took them because it wasn't so hard, but at least we graduated knowing who Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc were, we had to go to concerts by the National Symphony Orchestra, it was a lot for people who had 3 hours of music in the schools each week.
I took the three classes and the three Theology courses and even when I had clasical formation learned a lot, I remember listing with mybteacher some Wakeman and Emerson which he learned to like.
Now Music 101 is an activity (102 amd 103 have vanished), and is worth 2 credits, so people rather take sports of whatever than study musical theory, history and appreciation.
That doesn't happen here.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: hitting_singularity2
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 01:39
| Ivan, I'm sorry if you can't get over the lyrics and message of most mainstream (and non-mainstream) rap, and I completely agree with you that our kids should not be hearing that kind of crap and it should be banned. For the lyrics. But frankly thats all i can see that is keeping you from an amazing genre that is different and is one of the only mainstream genres that is dare I say PROGRESSIVE. I agree with BaldFriede completely that the reason mainstream stuff sucks so much is that the labels and producers and whatnot are trying to imitate what is popular...making the most un-prograssive music popular. This is very true with mainstream rock, but hip-hop producers/artists have a very different frame of mind and are constantly trying to bring new ideas and new music to the genre. for the hell of it here are two hiphop artists that come to mind that are good and aren't obscene: TTC, and The Dawnbreaker Collective. oh and the Gorrilaz for what they have contributed to hiphop.. A very progressive band btw |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 01:59
Hey, Raff, where's the long version of your gif?  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:12
Well the results are not perhaps ideal, but what I'm saying is that currently we are seeing more complex bands have a greater appeal as opposed to the 90s. Bands like Between the Buried and Me or Coheed and Cambria are actually rather well-known, and Explosions in the Sky are practically gods in the Indie scene (which isn't saying much, I know, but still...) which is certainly a step up from the grunge and boy-band dominated 90s. I'm coming to realize that with the advent of the internet, what gets played on the radio isn't always an accurate reflection of what people are listening to. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:23
It probably depends on where you live; I am not aware that those bands are well-known here. And even if they were, it would not mean much for me; Coheed and Cambria, for example, are in my opinion a very questionable addition to the archives. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:26
Progressive?...For God's sake they are talking fast, something humanity has done for ever!!!!!!!
Lyrics are not the only prooblem, I said I don't even consider Rap as music.
Every time a member mentions a great Hip Hop artist,. I get something of their music, and still haven't found something I remotely like.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 11:36
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 12:15
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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 12:23
Yeah, that would make sense. And my point was more relative than that - C&C aren't exactly my favourite band either, but I would rather them than Nirvana, for example. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 18:51
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I'm obviously not justifying violence, but giving a reason for lyrics like "f**k tha police" or "cop killer" or things like that.... When you grow sorrounded by violence it's difficult to always see the bright side of life. Of course, once their songs were succesful it became a business.... The shootings part has more to do with the narcissistic individualistic way of thinking of americans and the availability of guns... obviously, violent lyrics don't help but both are different sides of the problem.... most School shootings have not been only in poor-slums material but actually white suburbs... -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 19:12
Exactly my point, you said you understand why poor people surrounded by violence can say kill the cop, but that violence is affecting not only the poor people who was born surrounded by crack, this violence in music and media has reached everybofdy.
That's why that crap is wrong, for the poor and the wealthy people.
Plus Theo, the guys who write this crap are covered with money, they complain against the system hat allowed them to have several milllion dollars while people who break their backs working can't.
This people are posers, they sell this violence to the poor or the rich guy because it's profitable, the money is the same doesn't matter from where it comes for them.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 20:17
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i hardly like any music at all ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |