Writing a prog rock song
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Topic: Writing a prog rock song
Posted By: joelossia
Subject: Writing a prog rock song
Date Posted: June 17 2009 at 16:36
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No seriously, starting a side project and want to know how to write a prog rock song.
What scales should i use for soloing, etc?
Any advice much appreciated
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Replies:
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 05:07
| Don't use theory- use your imagination. |
Posted By: joelossia
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 06:59
| Clever. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 07:44
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^ he's right though. I could tell you to solo in E phrygian minor, but how would that be progressive? I think that when you want to write a prog song a solid knowledge of music theory can never be a bad thing. But scales, time signatures etc. usually can't give you the inspiration for a prog song. My advice: Try to come up with an interesting melody. Based on this melody, try to develop riffs and chord progressions, or other melodies that complement the initial one. Eventually that might lead you to a prog song. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:14
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All of the advice you've been given is solid. I don't work around scales or modes or any of that. I don't "strive" to play a certain way. I literally just mess around on a given instrument until I find a chord progression or melody or riff that is memorable and interesting to me. If it passes step one (and sometimes even if it doesn't), I begin to build around that melody, and flesh it out. It takes me a long time to write music, but I'm always pleased with the end composition. Good prog is memorable to me- that's the bottom line. If I hear it three times and cannot recall anything, I almost always don't like it. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:22
| experiment experiment experiment ...be free in your playing & allow that freedom to open up new avenues of playing, & when you stumble upon something that resonates with your artistic vision then hone in on it & develop it to it's fullest. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:25
Excellent way to put it.  I love the word "stumble." My favorite things I've ever written were created by complete accident, not by "knowing what I was doing" per se. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Captain Capricorn wrote:Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 12:24
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I wouldn't completely discredit trying some different modes and scales, if only to see what they sound like and whether they inspire anything, to see if they'll push you outside your comfort zone into new areas.
There are no rules for a Prog song - some will say abandon the verse-chorus structures, use layering, weird time signatures, unusual modulations (key changes), avoid I-IV-V chord progressions, etc. - but at the end of the day it is whatever works for you.
All I can recommned is being brutally honest with yourself - if you don't like something, trim it down to what you do like and build it back up from there - if you keep something that you are not totally happy with it will nag at you for ages after. ------------- What? |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 09:22
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the only advice I can give is : do something you like, that is different from what you know.
------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 12:35
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Compose thoughtfully.
Write something and imagine how it could continue - then try something else.
Run through the various ideas and see if they tell you a story or take you on a journey.
If they don't, then try to imagine the story or journey, and rewrite parts of the piece so they do.
Don't just jam stuff and say to yourself "That'll do".
Does it feel "right"?
Put that another way - does it feel like it has a life of it's own outside of you, the composer?
Does it sound like something else?
If so, rewrite it until it doesn't.
Play with the ideas - vary them slightly by a note.
Use modes, time signatures, theory, whatever you know - learn more stuff and use that. Forget it all and write something different.
Go back to the now sprawling mess and see if you can't transform it into something more coherent - if you're lucky, you might even be able to transform it into lots of things that are coherent.
But most importantly of all, play and enjoy.
Just given away my whole game plan there... except my golden rule when writing guitar solos - I always imagine that Nigel Tufnel is going to be the guitarist who plays it when we finally get a proper band together, so I mould my solos around his techniques... it all goes to 11
 Let's summarise sensibly;
Lots of improvisation, combined with lots of thoughtful, structured composition - to me, that's one of the main secrets of great Prog, and I've yet to find an exception. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 16:15
^ That feels like reading Fripp's diary 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 07:43
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http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Write_a_Progressive_Rock_Song - Here's all you need know.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 08:39
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I've only written what I would call one decent prog "melody", and as Epignosis was talking about before, it was one of those things I just stumbled upon.
Funnily enough, I was learning to play Marillion - FUGAZI on piano from ear when I just had some other random melody coming out... I've worked on it since, and its the only decent thing I've ever really written I guess. But keep trying ------------- 
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 08:40
That got me some major laughs! For instance, do not write about: Sex with women The fun you can have with drugs Dancing Happy things Interesting things accessible to the average person, etc. Instead, write about: Your oppressive, domineering mother (“Mother,” Pink Floyd) Bad LSD trips (“Voyage 34,” Porcupine Tree) Being a homeless, creepy person (“Aqualung,” Jethro Tull) Depressing things (every song on The Wall, Pink Floyd) Boring, pretentious things that are interesting to no one (every song by King Crimson ever) -------------
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 08:58
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I don't think you set out to write a prog song. It's just what boundaries you place around yourself and how far you're willing to push the envelope. The further you push the more likely you'll fall on your face. I've written close to a hundred songs, some pretty progressive, some very simple.
If you listen to alot of prog, what your ear will tell you is good will be more "proggy" than if you listen to blues all day.
Finally, as they say, learn from the masters. We all imitate our favorites when we start out, so don't feel bad writing a song that is in the same vein as music you really like.
Good luck. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: June 28 2009 at 22:16
| Being truly Progressive is writing and playing without worrying about what genre you're in. Just write what you like and the rest will come naturally. The great thing about this genre is that it's so diverse that you can't help but be in Prog territory a lot of the time anyway. Hell, look how many non-Prog artists have been considered Prog without even really being aware of the genre much themselves. |
Posted By: daslaf
Date Posted: July 05 2009 at 16:30
Write a bass riff on 7/8 on a major scale which contains a modulation to its relative minor scale and then make a cannon with some variations of the bass riff on guitar and vibraphone.. oh and name the piece His Last Voyage 
Nah joking, there's no formula, I don't have one... I guess the best thing you can do is listening to music and mess around with yer instrument or whatever ------------- But now my branches suffer And my leaves don't bear the glow They did so long ago |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: July 05 2009 at 16:59
Isn't that site AMAZING?
I recommend everyone to read their article about PA. Wikipedia doesn't have an article for ProgArchives, but Uncyclopedia certainly does.
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: July 05 2009 at 17:24
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There are a few pieces of advice I'd give, as a writer of progressive rock/metal myself. Have what you want to achieve in mind before you write. Some people may say that art just spews out of their heads uncontrollably, but it still requires a fair bit of planning. Write everything down, even the stuff you don't use so you can use it in another song. The way I write music is like a jigsaw. I have a number of riffs or chord sequences all partying around in my skull and I pick a few that fit together (if I'm brutally honest, you only really need about 3 bits, 5 or 6 max, unless you want to write a 40 minutes song). Then I create little sequences that link them all together, whether it be production reliant or actual notated sequences. It's basically just a bricks and mortar process, but then again I have mild OCD so I don't know On the scales thing, it depends whether your stuff is a major or minor, and the chords you are using. It also depends on the atmosphere you want to achieve with the solo. Is it happy? Sad? Funny? Weird? Angry? Different scales trigger different emotions in a song. When you tell me what mood you want achieve, then I may be able to help. Style of prog would also help (RIO, Prog Metal, Jazz Rock...) I would also strongly recommend the advice Micah (p0mt3) gave you also. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 05 2009 at 17:44
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of all the things you could learn, i think this is the most important MAKE SURE THE MUSIC GOES SOMEWHERE AND THAT NOTHING IS DONE JUST FOR THE SAKE OF DOING IT. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 05 2009 at 17:46
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btw you will probably be met with poor or average criticism if you present your material, because "you're going in trying to write a prog song". just dont worry about it. but anyways, good luck  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: July 12 2009 at 20:24
Solos? That's the last thing you think about when writing a prog song  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: joelossia
Date Posted: July 15 2009 at 06:27
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I mean like ad-libbing and stuff+ whats rong w/solos have you not heard the cinema show by genesis- it's like 70 percent keyboard solo. |
Posted By: Hyardacil
Date Posted: August 04 2009 at 18:05
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^ he's right though. I could tell you to solo in E phrygian minor, but how would that be progressive? ... E Phyrgian minor. Hehe. Nice... I mean... Yeah... would it be progressive? ------------- "I am sitting in your eyes..." |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: September 12 2009 at 08:02
ROTFLMAO...Even though I'm american, i totally am feeling this part: " Being Non-AmericanAs anyone who knows anything about anything will tell you, http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Americans - Americans can't make http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Prog_Rock - Prog Rock . With the exception of anything ever written by http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_Theater - Dream Theater , everything to ever come out of the American Prog scene is total http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/sh*t - sh*t ." Although, I can think of a few more exceptions than DT.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 16 2009 at 21:29
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One different way to compose (for me), but you might want to try it as well, is to surround yourself with nature. Composing while overlooking a landscape can be inspirational. A meadow or a field. A cemetary or just before a storm hits when the black clouds are rolling above with winds at 40 miles. Composing overlooking a church, a cathedral, or castle. I composed a lot while sitting next to a lighthouse. If you have already had the experience of playing in a wide variety of bands, worked in studios, studied with teachers and are diverse in playing different styles, this is the route to try. This way you can take everything that you have ever learned and simply not think about it. Let nature be the inspiration and all of your musical talents will unfold naturally. Many progressive rock pieces, ideas, and even epics have been written when trying this method. If it is even a method? |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: September 26 2009 at 20:53
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Just a thought, for soloing in prog, if your a guitarist, listen to other instruments ( no matter style) ie: Jean luc ponty (violin) or some sax solos etc... thatmight maybe give you a different feel or outlook/inspiration to create something you normally wouldn't just coming from a guitarists viewpoint and possibly creating something new for you and a unique sound. I believe prog was and should still be expanding music not a format someone can give you.
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: September 29 2009 at 13:41
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Now just an idea, I have used in the past and there is endless possibilities. A lot (not saying all) of prog rock & metal bands when playing in odd time have a tendency to go into a time signature say it's 7/8 and stay there. What's more challenging is creating patterns/riffs( ie: 3 bars of 4/4 and then a bar of 5/4, and the next time 3 bars of 4/4 and a bar of 6/4) this just being an example the patterns are endless but do help in kinda making something new and original. Also for soloing it makes it a liitle bit more of a challenge to create something musical over top of it. No matter what scales etc... you use. Theory is useful to get you through stuff sometimes or create a certain feel/sound but it always seems more natural when you come up with something without thinking about it.
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: meatal
Date Posted: September 29 2009 at 14:15
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Sorry forgot might be useful. Often overlooked is poly rythmns (easy ie: playing 3/4 over 4/4) and just cause I got this on my mind, if your a guitarist look into a guitar synth, I couldn't play violin, pan flute ect.. but I could emulate them and often mixed those sounds underneath my guitar leads rather than harmonize with another guitar. And the looks of people LIVE was awsome when they heard a Hammond etc... with no one on stage playing one. Anyways hope some of this stuff is helpful for you.
------------- The bitter harvest of a barren land, I'm painting pictures you don't understand. (Fates Warning) |
Posted By: Tengent
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 13:53
| I always stop and think about what emotion I want the song to convey. I then pick a desired scale to make that mood. Then I screw around with the scale and harmonies until I find something interesting. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 18:22
God I love Uncyclopedia... ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: The Block
Date Posted: October 06 2009 at 19:27
-------------  |
Posted By: IanParker
Date Posted: October 21 2009 at 22:52
| The only problem that I have with everyone's answers is that not one person has put ANYTHING musical in their replies. Every single musician that did prog knew about Jazz theory, classical theory, and various genres. You must know the rules before you know hot to truly break them. Learn basic jazz theory and embelleshed chords(so you don't keep running into the same Root Fifth Root chords), Understand the modes(it's easier than you think), learn some classical peices. I like the comment about starting with the melody. Don't do this all the time though. YOu should really try to approach each movement from a different perspective. When you hear what usually sounds "improvised" or based on "accident", that is normally one of the many musical tools that you should learn about. For instance, there is a chord that isn't in the parent scale. There are many great devices like "modulation", "secondary dominants", "modal music", Atonal peices, ostinato. Look up these terms and see what they say. These so called accidents are usually the by-product of something purposely done. I am not saying that all of them do it. But almost all of them do. Probably with the exeption of pink floyd and King Crimson. But as far as Yes, Genesis, Camel, Gentle Giant, Mars Volta, Jethro Tull(who by the way thought it was funny to be called progressive), and most of the others, they are very learn-ed in the ways of composition. Your solos especially should really be in some kind of mode over the pedal with chord changes to help pull certain notes. I could go on all day but there is some advice. Progressive music is NOT for lazy people. Anyone who says that you don't need to know theory is telling you a lie, trust me. So get to learning and make some good music. |
Posted By: AnchovyRun
Date Posted: October 22 2009 at 20:54
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I agree with fancy pants up there ^
As fun as it is to just "fool around" till you find something, if you already have something in mind like a few riffs or even just a vague idea of what you want, music theory is useful to help you to finish your riffs or phrasing. ------------- <>< The Anchovy Run ><> ------------------------------ Caravaning For Your Convenience |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 22 2009 at 21:05
Ehn. Encyclopedia Dramatica is funnier (angrier, bitter, more amoral, etc.) ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 23 2009 at 04:47
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Music theory is always going to be useful in writing any type of song. I have to agree with Ian Parker.
I think its quite obvious when prog has been created by musicians who understand composition on a deep level. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: October 25 2009 at 19:59
Nice
I'm naturally a busy thinker when it comes to music. Growing up I would hear my dad play his hammond, moog and rhodes and he would listen to jazz and fusion. I hardly liked the rock music i was hearing on tv/radio in the 80s. I wasn't really into jazz, but i liked the busy style. I liked the combination of jazz and rock though. I wasn't a fan of straight hard rock or pop rock. It has to have the busy jazz element of drumming with plenty of cymbals and busy bass playing and a nice sounding guitar which is much less dominant and more combined in a melody. Add in the keys, winds and vocals with character and you have a busy smart melody coming from jazz based ideas. Prog can only come from someone who thinks like a jazzer or a classical composer imo. The classical parts come from tthe keys usually. I just don't think it can come from someone who is into metal because the jazz guitar element goes out the window and mostly the bass and keyboard elements too(because more guitar won't accomodate the complex bass and key parts usually) ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: booz
Date Posted: November 03 2009 at 22:48
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For me theories serve as your building blocks for making music. Knowing the basics will help you produce more complex sounds.
------------- Stay Alive |
Posted By: Hyardacil
Date Posted: November 10 2009 at 12:10
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For me it's not a question of how to write progressive rock... it's more like the question: "How to write music?" or "How to write good music?" After all good music transcends the borders of genre and should not be limited as such. And how to write good music? No one can answer that well enough, I think. People COULD tell you what NOT to do, I think though. ------------- "I am sitting in your eyes..." |
Posted By: IanParker
Date Posted: November 10 2009 at 19:52
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Well, you see, there are musical cliche' s that you have to consider when trying to write something that will be commonly understood as "good". Just as the math and/or vibration measurements dictate to us the concepts of harmonic and melodic structure, so do the inherent progressions based on a tonal succesion's(scale's) parent chordal struture(the harmonic movement). This then is subdivided into the powerful connections of chord to chord/mode to mode, and the weaker connections, also called "cadences". So for instance when you hear the sound of a G dom7 "resolve" to a Cmaj/maj7/ect., you hear first the sound of longing, or unfinished business from the Gdom7 chord( tension) and then a feeling of rest and finality when you then play the Cmaj(resolution). So, to put it more simply, you want repeated tensions and resolutions. This is what creates that little tingly feeling when you hear a cool song. The above example is not only a musical fundemental in many respects, but it also falls into one of those(or should I say most of) the musical cliche's that progressive music combines to create more colorful and extended progressions. The reason why I mentioned that jazz plays a big part in progressive rock is not because it uses the harmonic movement and embellished chords, it is mostly because part of the mistique of jazz comes from the fact that it is always pulling the listener forward and not necessarily letting the ear rest on a chord or tone of finality.
This hasn't necessarily answered you question so I apologize.
To answer it directly,
all you need to do is look up common chord progressions and make a melody with not all notes next to eachother(diatonic/stepwise motion), and not all tones arpeggiated(skip-wise motion). That will do the trick. To write progressive music however, you must do much much more than that.
If you have further questions, I would love to answer them. That goes to anyone. I love talking theory and I also learn from others when they share the enthusiasm for music that I have.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 09:38
| Knowing various scales is most important. The feat is knowing what to do with them. The improvisation in India is a healthy listen. You want to expose yourself to traditional ethnic music and sort of observe from a listening stand point, where all these musicians directing themselves. Zappa did this for years. I like to at least hear as much as I possibly can before I compose. No it is not good to worry all the time about things like, has my idea been written before? But you can educate yourself by listening to ancient music and exploring the improv tunnels that so many musicians have discovered. It's quite like a walk down the hall of Gnosis. |