Dream Theater release date
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Topic: Dream Theater release date
Posted By: Wilcey
Subject: Dream Theater release date
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:18
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Sorry if I am being thick (quite likely!) and sorry if this has been raised before, but can someone confirm the release date for the new DT album? I thought it was June 23rd, but there seems to be 82 (eighty-two!!) reviews already! DId the release come forward? Are there some lucky folk with advance copies? What's going on? Yours, Bewildered and befuddled from Wiltshire x |
Replies:
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:43
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June 22nd, I thought. June 23 is Mars Volta. ------------- 
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:53
| It's called piracy. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:59
Some of us have tried to raise the question in the CZ, but to no avail, or so it seems ...
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 17:25
Surely we can't allow reviews of blatant illigitimate copies?  |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 18:16
| believe us, we've raised concerns about nuking the entry, but there's too many variables at play to do so, so it seems. Personally, I don't care if people's illegitimate reviews are annihilated, and boo-hoo for their hard work, it's still illegal. |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 18:20
I agree entirely. How much is it to ask for people to review things AFTER they've been officially released? -------------
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King By-Tor wrote:Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 18:40
| Unfortunately, far too many people won't do what they are asked, so the only way to go about things is to prevent them from doing so in the first place. We tried to get something done, but, as Mike said, there were too many factors involved. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 19:25
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I just find it ridiculous that there are some great albums that only have 30 or so reviews while BC&SL has two more weeks to be officially released and it already has over twice as much. I really think a system not allowing reviews until an official release should be encouraged. It would probably decrease bias when the legitimate copies are listened to, and I don't think as many DT haters wandering on the site before the release would be less likely to give the album a low rating pre-release. That's just my opinion. ------------- 
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 19:55
I agree entirely. -------------
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Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: June 09 2009 at 19:56
------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 00:00
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Listening to a leaked copy, as long as it's accurate and complete doesn't make your opinions based on it any less legitimate. It may be wrong or unethical but it doesn't the fact that people can review it as long as the system allows it. In all honesty the system shouldn't open up reviews until release dates but if people can review it well, good for them.
-------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 01:33
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The ENTIRE album was posted on youtube about a week ago, pretty good stuff.
I won't be buying it, though. ------------- 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 01:41
Except it hasn't leaked fully, so the reviews will be inaccurate. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 02:40
It's incredibly stupid, It's waving a flag and flaunting your willingness to break copyright. So whether you give it 5* or 1* you are saying you don't care about this band. If they waited until the release date no one would know they had illigitimate copies, but they're SO eager to be in with an opinion ahead of time, it will just devalue the legitimate reviews whih is unfair. I don't understand what variables there could possibly be, I understood the reviews were not permitted prior to release. it's a simple rule surely? If it's a rule of value it should be inforced, if it's not inforced there is not point in having it! Come on, let's get this situation sorted out. It's wrong and unfair and it encourages those patiently waiting for the release to break not only site rules but international copyright laws, do we as a site want to encourage that? W x |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 05:02
| Apart from the (il)legality of it all, the fact is these people could be reviewing the wrong album, or not the complete album. Weren't there some fake copies of a previous DT album knocking around before the release date? |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 05:29
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^Yeah I recall Ivan saying that James Labrie's solo album Elements of Persuasion was leaked under the 'Octavarium' name or something like that. People were reviewing and rating an entirely different album. What also bothers me is that people could be reviewing the album off of Youtube or something, which really isn't reviewing the album IMO. -------------
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Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 05:39
The promo's have been out for absolutely ages and the full (actual) album has been available illegally for weeks now. (Although my copy (CD) has been on pre-order for some time now  )
It makes me wonder whether they actually want the album to be leaked before release.
No press is bad press and all that, maybe? Just a thought.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 09:44
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before this gets to 100 pages, let's all take as fact that the site considered all available technical options and did the best that they could given the means at their disposal. Now back to our regular programming. Please ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 10:06
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The main detonator here is PA's own policy, which allows upcoming albums to be included in the database as soon as its info (tracklist, lineup, cover) becomes publicly known. And the reason for that is (so I've heard) to get more internet traffic on the site. Now, as much as I can suck it up that "internet traffic beats professionalism" idea, and as much as I realize that this is a new era of pre-ordering, peer-to-peering and leaking, if I'd be in charge, and see that everytime a popular band has an upcoming album, my site gets flooded with pre-reviewing (over 2/3 of it bogus and illegitimate) and the huge controversy around it that happens (and this has been going on for quite two or three years by now), I'd close the pre-release adding policy completely. PA is not a music magazine, the folks who pre-order and review it properly are always a minority, few bands have actually requested from PA to do a promotional review, in advance to the upcoming release. So there's no reason to blindly believe that this policy is beneficial. ------------- 
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 10:37
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I am in agreement with Riccochet here. The thing is once you allow these pre-release reviews (that are 99.999999% illigitmate in their source) you do 2 things. 1. you get MORE popular with the kind of people that illigitimately source music thus encouraging the same bad behaviour in others and creating a snowball effect. 2. you get LESS popular with musicians and bands who see PA as a safe haven for the type of people who want to give you a pre-release 1* review out of spite or fun, or the kind of people that don't care enough to wait for the release and source illigitimate copies. What the hierachy at PA need to decide is which of these 2 options is best for PA. W x |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 01:06
tell me about it. Tell the admins that too. I've been trying to get them to do something about it. Were it up to me those entries would be blank. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 02:25
| This is concerning. I remember all those pre-release reviews of Octavarium a few years back. I thought this issue had already been dealth with... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 03:12
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I agree with averyone here it seems. Delete the reviews and not allow reviews until after the release date. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 03:50
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so, if we all think this way............................................. it kind of begs the question WHY??? I accept that admins have discussed this in their private battle ground, but a word from the admins would be good here! W x |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 04:27
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One big reason for allowing reviews before the album is released is ... because all major sites allow it. That's also why bands and labels send promo copies ... they want some information about the album to be available at the time when it's released, and not a couple of weeks later. The difficult part is finding out which of those "preemptive" reviews is actually based on a legitimate promo copy. Since that is often not possible, given the anonymity of the web, I guess there's no way but to allow these reviews. One possible solution for the archives could be to only allow reviews after the album has been released. But any restrictive mechanism would require the exact release date, and AFAIK that information is not stored in the PA database. There's also no such thing ... release dates often vary from country to country, sometimes an album is released in Europe weeks, months or even years later than in the U.S., or vice versa. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 05:14
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with all the "review" teams, "genre" teams etc etc we have on PA, could we not restrict these pre-release reviews to admins only? That way if anyone has a legitimate review copy from the promo whirl then they can do their job and review the album. And save fan or regular member reviews or ratings until the release date? PA is being talked about in musician circles, and with these types of illigitimate super advance reviews from copies sourced from shady areas, some of the talk is beginning to be less than favourable. I have the interests of the site, it's users and the musicians at heart and I would like to see everyone co-existing in a way favourable to all. Surely there must be a way? R x |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 05:57
| There is a dedicated thread in the CZ, and for days we tried to get the admins' attention. When we did, we were told that the site owner does not see anything wrong in advance reviews, because it generates traffic. So, I'm afraid this thread is pretty much useless... No one is going to listen to you, or delete those reviews - especially now that the release date is drawing nearer and nearer. I am sorry to be so blunt, but this is the way things have been for a while. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:01
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^ Generating traffic is another reason that I was aware of even before you posted this ... being a webmaster myself, I know how the game works. I'm not trying hard to promote my own website - it currently only has a pagerank of 2 - but I know that when your goal is to be the top ranked website for a newly released album, you have to get some interesting content onto that site before others do (if you don't, search engines won't find the page interesting and other websites won't link to it). So, for that reason postponing the reviews obviously is a bad idea ...
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:09
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^^I'm coming around to your way of thinking Mike. You done it again.   ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:15
Hey Mike
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:16
Yes, it's called commercialism, we know. The only thing left to explain is why we'd need to diminish our professionalism and responsible attitude for that. -------------
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Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:21
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So, if we decide to not allow early reviews we have better quality, but less traffic. If we allow them, we have worse quality, but more traffic. This sounds awfully similar to the situation the big prog bands were in in the 80s. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:36
That's not called commercialism, but S.E.O. (Search Engine Optimisation). It's a part of the modern Online Marketing profession, and it's a very respectable and professional activity per se. It is, though, quite some controversy around some of those who do it, because they tend to abuse it. IMO we should allow only Prog Reviewers and other Collaborators reviews before release date (if it's possible to create a mechanism for this). This way we gain more credibility overall for PA and more exposure for the Collaborators, which is a good thing. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:49
Fair enough, but it still focuses on profit, and when we're coming with complaints about illegitimate practices and we're told "it's for the profit", it's not right. Good suggestion you made, sorry I cut it, for the context. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 07:00
| What worries me is the negative comments Wilcey mentioned. Those of us who have been working hard on the site's behalf are in danger of seeing all our efforts go down the drain because of this dubious practice. You remember when we saw those negative remarks on another music forum? None of us felt particularly happy about them - and they came from people just like us, not from musicians. It is all very good to be proud of being featured in Classic Rock, but we should be careful of not ending up being tagged as shady and unprofessional - especially when the reviews in question are anything but great. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 07:34
S.E.O. is for gaining relevance (online relevance, which is more of a technical concept). Whether M@x uses the relevance for income or not, I don't know that. What if the income gained is used for storage & traffic facilities, is that also bad? I wouldn't jump to conclusions that fast. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 07:46
I don't really think that PA is a commercial website ... if anything, it's a nice project that M@x can show to possible clients (last time I checked, his company specialized in search engine marketing).  But think about it: How could the admins enforce that no reviews are entered before an album is released, except for people who have a legitimate copy ? Who would determine all the release dates for the albums and enter them into the database? Who would talk to the reviewers, and what ways are there to determine whether their copy of an album is legitimate? We're talking about a lot of work here ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 07:57
I didn't said PA is a commercial website, I just think that the reason behind the policy and insisting on it when we have some controversial bugs isn't on the side of PA being a responsible and professional website. Shutting down the pre-release project wouldn't generate many of the question you asked. I'll repeat for the third time that the only downside of it is upsetting the few who bought the promo copy (or the pre-order copy). We're more concerned about the many that fool with us, writing fiction, leaked incomplete impressions or intensely-subjective extreme likings (etc.) On second thought, this is maybe pointless. Five years from now, we probably won't be able to tell the difference between the reviews that were written before the release of an album and those "normal" ones. And the impressions will be classified under "subjectivism", no matter what. I just thought that, since this controversy sparks every single significant time, we could find a solution for it. -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 08:27
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^ I still think that the main problem would be to enter the release dates for all new albums, and the fact that they vary from country to country. Once that is done, there are plenty of options. One of course would be to limit pre-release reviews to collaborators. Another would be to forbid ratings without reviews before the release date, and to cross-check every review for detailed information about the tracks (a good way to find out whether the review is authentic, but that of course requires that the admin also knows the album). ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 09:09
| How about using the earliest release date? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 09:12
^ sure - but how do we find that out? Unfortunately there isn't a global website that lists this kind of information. Well, I'm trying to implement it at PF, but I could use more volunteers ... 
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 09:17
| I've no idea how we would find that out, but if we were to use one I think the earliest one would be the way to go. There could still be abuse, but then again there always will. Using the last release date wouldn't be fair for the ones buying it at the first one. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 15:32
I concur. I also think we should at least not allow ratings until the release date. -------------
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Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: June 12 2009 at 02:42
Presumably we find out the release info the same way we find out all the other release info, it's not the work of genius. If we can discover the track listing, the label, the running time etc etc etc it's not a leap of faith to add the release date. Then however list's the album adds in the release date to the info and no reviews are eccpted prior to that date, other than of course the official reviews which should be ok'd by an admin. Pre-release rating/reviews are damaging to the reputation of the site, and they encourage dubious practice. I picked up on the DT release because it's so big, but it could have been one of any number of releases it's a problem. W x |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 12 2009 at 03:04
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^ don't be so sure. Release dates are often hard to find. Of course in this particular case, with a high profile band like Dream Theater, it's no big problem. Maybe that's also the solution: to implement this mechanism for high profile bands only.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: June 12 2009 at 03:11
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^^
Mike is correct.
Maintaining the PM release calendar over the last few months has shown me how hard it is, I can tell you.
Not only that but the release dates are changed regularly; to the extent that I now don't bother to keep up with the amendments any more. It happens that often!
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 10:30
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As LiquidEternity just pointed out in Reviews Reporting Thread, Porcupine Tree's upcoming album, The Incident, has just been added to the database. Meanwhile, there are 3 months and 3 days left until the album is officially released. Embracing for a new wave of fishy reviews, given the PT is just as popular as DT (if not even more), is an understatement. Two huge controversies in one year, on the same topic, will also be quite the achievement. Oh well... -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 10:53
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I think I'm going to add and review DT's next album, I mean, the successor to Black Clouds. It hasn't been announced and I have no info but what the hell, it may bring even more visitors to PA!!! ------------- 
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:33
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^ Yes! And cover your knowledge of the music as much as possible by overtly and as fanboyishly as you can describing how incredible they are and how they are the saviors of music forever and ever! -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:49
^Well... don't tell nobody but I kind of do that....  
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Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 19:14
| well- the 3 cd's are up on torrents... So look out for lots of incoming reviews from those unwilling to support the band. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 01:53
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I just downloaded the regular version from Amazon MP3 ... my goodness, if Roadrunner keep this up, what's next? A 10 CD limited edition?
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 02:22
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Well PT's the Incident already has a 5.00 rating. At 3 and a half months before it's officially released it's already an essential album. I'm impressed now. In any event, I'll probably get that one too. maybe it will make up for how dissapointed I was with FOABP. -------------
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 10:49
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I suppose re-iterating the request for any technical expertise that might help PA stop these reviews from being posted is too much to ask. Don't ask admin or collabs to supervise album reviews 24 hours a day. 7 days a week, for months on end. that is not a reasonable way to do it. And y'all should know that PA also cannot program a blanket "no album to be added" web fix, as this would lead to legit albums being barred also. Even getting a specific album denied would not deter someone to mispell the title. So please, either come up with something doable, or live with it. The very fact of a review being posted DOES NOT increase the illegal downloads in any way. Those who want it already know where to look. And PA is not it. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 10:52
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^ The only person who can make technical changes to the wesite is M@X - we can propose and suggest, but the ultimate call-off is the man himself. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 11:01
Easy solution guys. Ban Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree from progarchives. They're causing too much trouble. 
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Posted By: Diaby
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 13:02
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I got my 3-cd copy today. I love this record store! They said one of the Rush albums had its world debut by them
------------- yeah |