Loudness War
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58453
Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 16:06
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Loudness War
Posted By: Blackbeard
Subject: Loudness War
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 13:57
 Loudness war is a theme which is mentioned very often today. After hearing the last metallica output "Death Magnetic" on the really good environment of a friend, we started discussing why this happens to such well reputated musicians. After looking around the internet for a while i suddenly found this place: http://www.dynamicrange.de/ - http://www.dynamicrange.de/ with lots of information AND a tool to check the dynamic range for given music files. I have only checked some of my older and some of my newer CDs (as MP3). I really found that, for example, my pink floyds are all have value of 11-12, while my procupine trees are around 8-9. The only new exception i have found so far seems to be "Part The Second" from motW with 12. I think it would be interessting to see if you can see AND hear similar differences, especially for so called remastered editions. |
Replies:
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 14:08
|
The remastered Megadeth records come to mind. Okay, not prog, but heh I don't care at this minute. Okay, so they aren't into clipping territory like Death Magnetic is, but they do sound compressed enough to lend them a "squashed" feeling to the sound that is not desirable to my ears at all. When I get off my butt and release an album, it's deliberately going to have heaps of dynamic range, because that's how I like my music to sound and the world does not need more compressed and constantly loud albums. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 14:16
|
Death Magnetic is going to end up being a turning point because even non-musicians can obviously hear the damage done to the music. Now how much we return to sanity remains to be seen. One of the biggest issues is that really high dynamic range requires both good replay equipment and more importantly a good listening environment to be appreciated. If it's just music to jam in the car, even 90's level of range are fine and probably actually better for that lo-fi experience.
There are some modern recordings that are so bad that I just shake my head "Do you want to be my Girl" by whatever pop punk band that is, that one was the first one where I just said "This is complete crap." ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 14:28
|
What? Well if we are going to have to go to war on this thing, I haven;t figured out which side to be on. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 15:59
|
This could be a natural progression starting with CDs and digital recordings, which really don't capture low-end frequencies very well. The issue with most listeners these days seems to be quantity over quality. This is natural I suppose, but combined with lust for the latest electronic gadget that is smaller than any before, we end up cutting out something in order to squeeze in as many tunes as possible. That is apparently range dynamics. Everything is evened out, making the sound dull. But as long as it sells units, whether they be electronics or music, many do not care. Since the beginnings of recorded music, there have always been audiophiles who sought the best sounds and the best equipment. For most of us, the best is very expensive.
 Metallica has always sounded squashed to me, so Death Magnetic's sound isn't all that different to me. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Besides, how can you fit a big sound into such tiny devices? How much sound can come through earbuds? Popular listening technology is what is currently driving the recordings, not the other way around as it has been in the recent past. And that is indeed unfortunate for those of us who value good music and good sound. 
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 16:46
|
Loudness war... one of these reasons I'm so glad with my LP-hobby. They tried to get music as loud as possible on vinyl. The problem (or blessing) of vinyl is that when your record is louder, less music fits on it. They had to stop for that reason. Longer records often have lower volume.
With the cd one can add loudness endlessly, but music quality will fade away quickly. This is a true pitty for the listeners and a big mistake of the recordcompanies. Don't they want us to buy their cd's?
|
Posted By: Werneflo
Date Posted: June 01 2009 at 17:57
| The worst part is that Metallicas technicians won't admit they're wrong. They think clipping is just fine. |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 09:08
|
what for??? so that the tiny speakers from your earphones can spit enough volume? compression is often necessary, but dynamic variance is also very important! It's essential for a musician to be able to go through all levels of volume in his music, and not see it butchered by loudness freaks... Still, I ask, who care about the idiots who accept this on their music? Let them ruin their music, I would not care about it before or after mastering! ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 09:14
|
got 6 on the latest DT... ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 09:41
|
You have to bear in mind that the Dynamic Range figure is a relative measurement and does not necessarily reflect the loudness of the recording - if the unmastered uncompressed original (post-mix) recording had a limited dynamic range then the final mastered version will have a poor Dynamic Range figure without clipping or over compression. It is feasile that two different recordings can have the same DR value when one is heavily compressed and clipped and the other has none. For example an uncompressed post-rock drone album could have a terrible DR value and still be a good recording whereas an avant garde album with the same DR value could be a horribly over compressed album.
Simply put - you cannot compare the figures for two different recordings with each other. However for comparative assessment of two similar albums, or of remastered vs. original it is a fair tool. ------------- What? |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 10:14
Is it oki if i just have no clue what you are talking about  ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 10:19
^ I get that a lot  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 15:03
Very true. I prefer to rely on the album gain calculation in Winamp ... it calculates the RMS value. But of course that's also not a true indication of whether there's clipping or not. Some tracks are louder than others - a death metal track will be louder than a solo acoustic guitar, for instance. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Dean wrote:Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: June 02 2009 at 23:48
|
This whole issue of maximum loudness has, in my opinion, made it less enjoyable listening to longer songs - the ear needs to rest, even in microscopic amounts throughout a piece of music. Maximum loudness absolutely creates listening fatigue... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: St.Cleve Chronicle
Date Posted: June 29 2009 at 13:56
|
A message from Steven Wilson in the Porcupine Tree album "Deadwing": "Please note that this record may not be mastered as loudly as some of the other records in your collection. This is in order to retain the dynamic range and subtlety of the music. Please, use your volume knob." I haven't got that one, but I'm glad that somebody's doing it right  |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 29 2009 at 15:05
^ lol ... I just had a look at the files I ripped off of that album ... the replay gain plugin in winamp says -9,64dB, which is pretty high up.  
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: mattmcl
Date Posted: June 29 2009 at 15:27
|
I absolutely hate this trend in music. To my ears, it's like taking a step back to the early 60's. Listen to "Comfortably Numb" on a good system and you'll hear everything, there is a lot of space - staging - in the recording. It breathes. Much of the music produced in the late 70's through the early 90's has that very open quality, lots of tonal variation. I'm not sure when it started to get all packed in with compression, but I sure as hell hate it. I didn't put together an audiophile grade system to listen to albums that sound like they were done with a Fostex four-track in a basement. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: June 30 2009 at 00:17
I don't know what "audiophile system" means anyway ... if it means that it's a system on which you can appreciate great mixes, I'd be happy to call my $80 Logitech 5.1 speakers audiophile.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |