Tech/Extreme Related Artists?
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57808
Printed Date: January 30 2025 at 10:24
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Topic: Tech/Extreme Related Artists?
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Subject: Tech/Extreme Related Artists?
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 04:13
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Hi, Why are there several arguably progressive (or that have at least released one fully progressive albums in their discography) Tech/Extreme Metal acts that have been rejected from Prog-Related but yet rock bands with similar situations are accepted all the time. Some suggestions for Prog-Related would be: Emperor - The prog album being Anthems for Welkin at Dusk Strapping Young Lad - Alien Gorguts - Obscura (one of the most complex and technical albums of all time... I truly don't understand how this isn't in PA already) There are plenty of others but those three profoundly stick out. What are your thoughts? Jake ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Replies:
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 04:17
This is a perfect example why PA should be album-based instead of artist-based. As far as I understand Gorguts have not been included because the rest of their material is quite conventional death metal. |
Jake Kobrin wrote:Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 04:53
Indeed, it should follow the same pattern as other major prog sites such as Babyblaue on which only Death albums as of Human were included and Ground and sky on which for example Joni Mitchell's album The hissing of summer lawns is featured.
Why Death is on this site and not Gorguts is something difficult to understand as both have non-prog and prog-related albums in their discography. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 05:42
AFAIK PA already is album based instead of artist based. IIRC, the rules are if a band has one progressive album, they can get in on the site. |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 05:55
Now, if only we can objectively pin down what "progressive" is. 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 05:56
Then it's probably time to add Gorguts to the reevaluation list. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 06:06
Gorguts actually only needs one more yes vote to be put on the cleared list.
4 yes votes, 4 no votes and one undecided. The band was put on the rejected list before Plankowner or I even joined the PMT anyway, so we never had the chance to vote on it the first time around. Given how close the band are to being a yes, I'm going to get some of their albums to make my decision. Hopefully my man Planky is going to lend his vote too. I can't guarantee a vote soon, because our cleared list is still quite big. Hopefully in about a month, I can get a vote in. |
http://www.gorguts.com/">
http://sads.myspace.com//Modules/Search/Pages/Search.aspx?fuseaction=advancedFind.results&searchtarget=tms&searchtype=myspace&t=tms&get=1&websearch=1&searchBoxID=HeaderWebResults&searchString=Gorguts&q=Gorguts">
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 06:09
| Obscura is the only album you'd have to get. Really, the band's proginess rests on that one album. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 06:09
| Sure thing, I'll grab that album. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 07:37
http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=review&albumId=7426&left=newReviews2&top=reviews - http://www.babyblaue-seiten.de/index.php?content=review&albumId=7426&left=newReviews2&top=reviews
http://www.progreviews.com/reviews/display.php?rev=gor-obs - http://www.progreviews.com/reviews/display.php?rev=gor-obs
http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=4738 - http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=4738
We should keep in mind that ProgArchives aim at being the ultimate source of progressive music. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 12:04
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Gorguts would fit like a glove in the Tech/ extreme catagory because of Obscura. I fully agree. Strapping as well for the Alien album. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 12:20
Just remember that while you're arguing about their addition you can rate and tag those albums at PF ... where they are already listed as Prog (at least Obscura and Alien, I looked them up).
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 22:46
Thank You! Thats what I never got. There is all this debate about whether or not a band is prog or not, or if a metal band with 7 albums but 3 are prog should they make it in based on a few? It would be so much easier to have a prog album section for all those. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 01:05
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okay - let's remove half the albums from the classic progressive bands then and not offer reviews for new albums until they've each been individually approved by the already non-stop working teams. Sounds awesome. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 01:20
Well, it is a little late now... Besides, the classical progressive bands would be fine. I think it should only be for albums from overall NON prog bands. For example, Death. Overall, there is no way you can call them progressive metal. They are a death metal band, and they should not be here...however, they do have prog metal albums. And its in THOSE cases a "Prog Album" section would be used for. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 02:13
| I donīt agree with the "only" progressive albums catagory. Either everything is here or nothing is. Itīs important to know an artistīs full discography to understand their development IMO. |
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 02:51
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Well there are plenty of bands like that already in the archives. Some big names would be The Beatles, The Who, Rush, etc. There also plenty who were prog but then stopped releasing prog: Genesis, Yes, Wishbone Ash, etc. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: Necromancer
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 09:36
Strange, thats one of my favourite albums ever. I love "With Strength I Burn"... Oh, and it's "Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk" ------------- http://www.myspace.com/aikaband"> 
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 10:28
That's cool, I hear you there. However, that being the case...I don't want to hear people complain about "X" does not belong here! |
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 13:22
It's one of my all time favorites as well. Strangely I can never remember the full title so I mostly just call it "Anthems". ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 14:16
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One of my first actions as a member was recommending Gorguts to the archive. It would be wonderful if they got in. And Obsucra is not their only progressive album. From Wisdom to Hate and The Erosion of Sanity both have very proggy moments. As for Emperor, their most progressive album (and their worst, imo) is Prometheus. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent"> 
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 14:28
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Iīm not much of an Emperor fan ( I prefer Samothīs Zyklon if I listen to anything from those gentlemen) but I agree that Prometheus is their most progressive album. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 14:43
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http://progfreak.com/Emperor,_dbe,artists,_auto_5163283.xhtml - http://progfreak.com/Emperor,_dbe,artists,_auto_5163283.xhtml There aren't many votes regarding the progressiveness of the albums ... you're welcome to add your opinion! ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 15:29
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Nile - Annihilation of the Wicked Superb album, for any fan of death metal this is a must have, especially the song User~Maat~Re. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 17:42
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^ Yes, and I find Nile in general pretty progressive. It might be just me, but I think their approach is much more progressive than a lot of the Tech/Extreme bands already here. ------------- 
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Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 18:17
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I'd disagree with that. Nile is not progressive, nor is Necrophagist or Spawn of Possession, etc. etc.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent">
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 18:17
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Never really considered Nile worthy of inclusion here.While I really dig them,they are pretty much a brutal death band,imho.Just because their lyrical content is influenced by ancient Egypt and they incorporate some middle eastern influences in their music doesn't make them proggy.Heck,Karl Sanders solo albums are more worthy of inclusion if you ask me(but not in any PM sub). -------------  |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 19:27
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Yeah, I would never consider them for inclusion. But they are one of the most progressive bands out there that remain outside of the prog umbrella.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: May 10 2009 at 23:02
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Nile is too much for me. And I like some brutal/crazy stuff! Anyone know of the bands: Coroner and Path of Debris? My brother said they're progressive-ish but hes not to into that stuff, so I dont know how right he is |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 00:16
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Coroner were generally considered technical/ semi-progressive thrash metal in the late eighties/ early nineties but theyīve been rejected here on PA. They are borderline IMO ( especially because of Grin). Iīm not too sure myself.
Havenīt heard of Path of Debris but found them on Metal Archives http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1601 - http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1601 .
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 04:08
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Yep, definitely no Nile for PA. A kinda progressive approach to their sound perhaps, but "prog metal", different story entirely. ------------- 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 04:24
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A thing for anyone here that is suggesting bands they believe could be prog related is that, IMHO, generally we don't just want bands that have progressive elements, because that can open the flood gates way too wide. We want you to convince us how those bands have influenced progressive tech/extreme artists, how they may have helped shaped the genre while not actually being inside the genre itself and why they are important. Sure, there are these bands that are being suggested here as being "borderline", but if these bands are relatively unknown, then how would they have been influential to the genre then? Think about it guys......why do we have Iron Maiden, Metallica and Black Sabbath? These are pretty well known bands that helped shape prog metal in some way. The fact they are well known and thus were much easier for bands to get a band a hold of to listen to, to influence their style, is key. Maybe Path of Debris is more progressive than Maiden, but f**ked if I've ever heard of them, and not a chance they have influenced anywhere near as much of the Tech/Extreme bands that Maiden did. See what I mean now? There are plenty of bands that are more progressive than Sabbath, but didn't make the cut for either Prog Metal or even Related. The bands that should be suggested for related shouldn't just be any "borderline" band, I really want you guys to take into consideration the other points I (and hey, possibly quite a few others) consider as being of strong importance for inclusion into Related before you come and suggest them. And then, perhaps an admin, maybe even our man of metal on the admin team, Jody himself might take a serious look at those suggestions. -------------
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 11:07
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Forwarding the bands you mentioned Harry, Slayer and Anthrax. Also early Death and Morbid Angel works influenced progressive death metal. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 12:33
Excellent point. Still, Gorguts should be added. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent">
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 12:53
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Yep but the difference is that Gorguts ( Obscura) is a fully progressive death metal album and not a borderline case ( at least IMO).
The line can be thin sometimes and the PMT should be open to borderline suggestions even though 8 out of 10 might be rejected. Those two that make the cut will add great value to PA IMO. I think most people who suggest artists for PM are very serious about their suggestions and therefore those suggestions should be handled and evaluated with respect by the team ( as they always are
 ) even though some of those suggestions migth seem borderline at first eyesight. The problem here is when people try and get borderline cases that have been rejected added to prog-related. I agree with Harry here that to get into prog-related ( which might be a bad name really?) you have to have greatly influenced progressive metal or rock in some way. Itīs not a place to put artists that didnīt make the cut into a full progressive genre. For example Iīm a greatly for the addition of Strapping Young Lad to the tech/ extreme genre because of the Alien ( and remember that one progressive album is enough to be added to PA) album but I would never suggest them for prog-related. Itīs true they are an influential band, but they are not influential on the whole progressive metal genre which I guess is the criteria to get into prog-related. Death might be a good example of a band that might fit better in prog-related than in tech/ extreme IMO. Greatly influential on the genre but not quite tech/ extreme material. I know others feel differently about it but I think itīs a good example.
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Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 13:26
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btw, you guys should add me to the progressive metal team. i'm pretty much the sh*t.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent">
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 20:38
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Yes, let's add to the debate as to who should be here, by topping it off with what should be here. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 20:42
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I don't beleive I suggested that Nile should be here. I merely stated that their approach is very progressive.
Also, on the topic of Gorguts, they are hugely influential within extreme metal circles for sure. Would they have to be influential in any prog (metal or otherwise) to be influential enough here, because I don't really know of many bands inspired by them. It really doesn't matter because if they have a progressive album I guess they deserve a place here. -------------
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 23:48
| Yep but in Tech/ extreme and not in Prog-related IMO. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 12 2009 at 00:05
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As was already stated, the band (Gorguts) only needs one yes vote to get in on PA in an actual prog genre (Tech/Extreme) regardless of how influential they are perceived to be, because that's the way of the voting process anyway. If a band is on the charts for actual prog metal, and is cleared, it doesn't matter at all how influential they are.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 13 2009 at 05:25
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Regarding Strapping Young Lad, they have 7 no votes against them from the older members of the PMT, so even if all in theory the current team were to vote yes, it's still effectively rejected. And I doubt T (who is a current member) is going to change his mind on the no vote he put up in the charts. I know it's contentious issue guys and one that is brought up fairly frequently because some of you strongly believe in their place here in the database, but with such an overwhelming majority of no votes, SYL making it's way into PA into Tech/Extreme is not going to happen, ever. The votes by former members of the team cannot be altered, that is set in stone permanently and as much as I know this is going to bother people, I'm afraid I have to bring it to the table here that it's not possible to turn the decision of SYL being a rejected band over. Since this is nothing that can be done further with the issue of the SYL Tech/Extreme question, I'm going to politely ask that the issue be put to rest once and for all knowing that I've made people aware of it never going to happen. -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: May 13 2009 at 06:04
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^ former members can always contact me via PM though and have their vote changed ... shouldn't happen that often, but sometimes people change their mind or the situation changes.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 13 2009 at 06:24
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^Well that is a possibility, I wasn't discounting that, but I was talking about it realistically. I'm not talking in theory here. Come one, let's be realistic: Are those older members that don't come back to the site, or that made their negative vote and are firm about it going to come here, see this thread and give SYL another go to see if they will change their mind? It just wont happen. That's why I'm asking for the SYL issue to be put at rest, because it's clear it's not going to ever change. -------------
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: May 13 2009 at 09:55
Hmmm... I would like to hear your opinion about the Alien album before I stop nagginī about it . I see from the above that their inclusion will probably never happen, but that doesnīt mean I have to agree or stop questioning the decision ( in a civilized manner of course ). In fact I strongly disagree with the decision and will only fully accept it when I know that all those no votes where given after listening to Alien and not on the basis of other albums by the artist. Itīs not fair to give a no vote after listening to City or SYL for example, when Alien is arguably the only full progressive album by the artist.
Do you see what I mean or am I being unreasonable? Now I donīt like to get personal here but itīs not so long ago I heard T say he hadnīt listened to the Alien album ( and his vote is a no) and the same with you Harry ( last time I checked you hadnīt voted, but I guess that can have changed in the meantime?). Have you listened to the album yet?
Iīm not the only one here who has suggested to the team that they should listen to that exact album if they wanted to hear the band at their most progressive, so Iīm a bit disappointed that the team doesnīt show more interest when suggestions keep coming from different users ( in the case of other rejected PM artists that keep re-appearing like Stratovarius and Necrophagist the team have listened to what people suggested as the most progressive albums). Remember one prog album and youīre in.
Iīll stop nagginī now causeī lets face it it doesnīt exactly help the case ( not that not doing it would. This is a lost case and as you said Harry those old votes canīt be changed). Damn that actually helped a bit. I got it out of my system. I promise Iīll stuff it now.
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 21 2009 at 21:19
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I second the progressive touch of SYL's 'Alien'. And I listened to it at least 10 times. Moreover, as the author of the article on the development of prog-rock I have a sufficiently extensive knowledge of prog to disinguish between a band that has something common with progressive rock in general and something that has no anchoring point at all.
Another band that we should consider for addition in the tech/extreme metal section : ONTOGENY, at least for the album 'pillars of perversion'. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 24 2010 at 12:06
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Did anyone considered why Akercocke still isn't on the archives? it's one of the most progressive and interesting bands. And btw yeah Emperor and SYL should be added the archives too. And also Lifelover! ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche) 
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: March 24 2010 at 14:05
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Akercocke is currently being re-evaluated, but they were initially rejected, so it will require yes votes from all members of the Progressive Metal Team. I wouldnīt get my hopes up too high there but thereīs still a chance.
Emperor have been rejected too
SYL have been rejected too ( personally I donīt agree with that decision but there are many no votes so thatīs a no go)
Lifeover are currently being evaluated. Two no votes so far. Three yes votes clear an act with the current formation of the PMT.
You can check out the votes here: http://progfreak.com/go/home/progarchives?path=pm/nw - http://progfreak.com/go/home/progarchives?path=pm/nw ------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: March 24 2010 at 20:36
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Akercocke are awesome and certainly have proggressive tendencies, but they're not full prog so I doubt they'll ever be here. They WOULD fit into the Tech/Extreme related category as discussed in the OP, though. Lifelover's not even proggy... They're blackened post-punk.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: (De)progressive
Date Posted: March 25 2010 at 10:10
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I don't understand the point here, should it include progressive rock elements to be in PA or is it enough to be a progressive band in general? because Lifelover is a band that includes black metal, post-punk, post-rock, classic music, industrial effects and electronics, and even in some songs I'm sure there is some progressive rock influences. ( look for Erotik and Konkurs albums to see what I'm talking about) the mixture of these sure maybe not enough for a band to be progressive, but Lifelover makes is both beautifully and aestheticly. Their music is quite experimental and open-minded. if Radiohead deserves to be in this site, so should Lifelover. (by the way I listen Radiohead too) ------------- ''Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.'' (Friedrich Nietzsche)
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