Black metal freaks don't want CoF to be called black metal and I don't want them to be called prog. Sorry, Unifaun, IMO just a band of guys and gals in make-up, combining punk and Iron Maiden influences, and adding some cheesy keyboards, spoken parts and bland female vocals to create a vampiric atmosphere. Not bad, if you can take the singer/screecher/screamer (if anyone here thinks Mikael Akerfeldt's growls are intolerable, well, you should listen to this guy, he sounds like Geddy Lee being strangled), but nothing special, either.

Certif1ed does think they're prog, though.

FloydWright wrote: Manunkind wrote: ot bad, if you can take the singer/screecher/screamer (if anyone here thinks Mikael Akerfeldt's growls are intolerable, well, you should listen to this guy, he sounds like Geddy Lee being strangled), but nothing special, either. ? It did take me a bit to get acclimated when I was first getting into metal, but I actually think Akerfeldt's one of the BEST growlers that there is in the entire genre, that I've heard thus far. Oh, and he's versatile to do excellent clean vox, too.

The thing is, a lot of proggers who aren't into that style of metal complain about Opeth's death vocals, and I've heard it said that they ruin the music countless times.  I think that's what Manunkind was suggesting.

Useful_Idiot wrote: FloydWright wrote: Manunkind wrote: ot bad, if you can take the singer/screecher/screamer (if anyone here thinks Mikael Akerfeldt's growls are intolerable, well, you should listen to this guy, he sounds like Geddy Lee being strangled), but nothing special, either. ? It did take me a bit to get acclimated when I was first getting into metal, but I actually think Akerfeldt's one of the BEST growlers that there is in the entire genre, that I've heard thus far. Oh, and he's versatile to do excellent clean vox, too. The thing is, a lot of proggers who aren't into that style of metal complain about Opeth's death vocals, and I've heard it said that they ruin the music countless times.  I think that's what Manunkind was suggesting.

Precisely. I don't have the least trouble with growling (just an additional bassling to me) but I know most people do. Still, CoF's vocals are something else. It's perfectly possible to get used to this constant shriek/wail-type-of-thing, but I'll take growling over this any day.  

I must admit I like everything I've heard by CoF - and as someone has pointed out, they are one of the most imitated bands of their genre (whatever that is). That doesn't mean that their clones should be considered prog, but CoF themselves strike me as being incredibly progressive. Check out Midian as a prime example - but you'll need to have a taste for "Black Metal" (or whatever you want to call it) first.

I couldn't give two hoots about a camp image - or any image, for that matter. It's the MUSIC that matters, and CoF go above and beyond the rest of the pack with their quasi-operatics and insane speed-blurs - and in the quieter moments show that they know more than a chord or two and have a deep feeling for their style.

Prog rock is where you find it.

 CoF is a great band. They take themselves just too seriously enough to make it fun, and not too seriously to appreciate (what? maybe reverse that...). They obviously love metal enough to do it justice- they're all very talented players- but understand that the whole power of metal is usually spoiled by attempts to hold back, joke openly aboout it, or dilute the influences. Just over-the-top heavy hard halloween in hell, that's how I like it.

prog? I don't even want to begin to form an opinion on that...

Certif1ed wrote: I must admit I like everything I've heard by CoF - and as someone has pointed out, they are one of the most imitated bands of their genre (whatever that is). That doesn't mean that their clones should be considered prog, but CoF themselves strike me as being incredibly progressive. Check out Midian as a prime example - but you'll need to have a taste for "Black Metal" (or whatever you want to call it) first. I couldn't give two hoots about a camp image - or any image, for that matter. It's the MUSIC that matters, and CoF go above and beyond the rest of the pack with their quasi-operatics and insane speed-blurs - and in the quieter moments show that they know more than a chord or two and have a deep feeling for their style. Prog rock is where you find it.

Ebony Lake - "On the Eve of the Grimly Inventive". Quite prog and much more original than CoF.

The problem with that last statement of yours is that you can find prog in places even stranger than those normally frequented by Mr Filth and his entourage. Even THE  black metal icon Darkthrone could be called prog since their music is not really about 'attack' that you normally associate with punk-derived, black metal or death metal, but more about ambience and a hypnotic, slightly tripped-out quality.  

And Cannibal Corpse are said to have a very idiosyncratic approach to writing riffs (no pun intended). Something they developed on their own. But does that make them prog?

Certif1ed wrote: I couldn't give two hoots about a camp image - or any image, for that matter.

Absolutely (although if a band has a stupid image I'd be less inclined to give them a chance in the first place), but to me their music itself sounds camp - I'd say the same for prog bands (well, ELP, anyway ), but it sounds camp in a distinctively metal sort of way, like Iron Maiden - I don't mean they sound like Iron Maiden, but the camp factor hits me in the same way, if that makes any sense .

Unifaun wrote: does anyone here listen to this band? I was listening to her ghost in the fog and it sounded like prog (if it rhymes it must be true by UK law). it has intricate lyrics and vocal styles, with male and female vocals weaving in and out of each other and seems to go through lots of different passages within the song (not movements as in a suite but hopefully you know what i mean). I havent heard much of their other stuff tho, what do you people think? XXX

I like how it's sort of symphonic even though it's death metal.. but I just can't stand the growls. If I need that I listen to Opeth.

firth_of_Fifth wrote: I really love midian...I think if  you gave a band like Genesis the same tunes (albeit , it would be a much darker genesis) you'd all love it. The tunes are very classical/medieval influenced which is what I love about prog. You just have to see past the image of the band and blast beats (as they arent very prog, they do work in the context of COF though). But seriously though. The girl on the cover of midian is the reason I own it on CD and Vinyl...

 oh yes, she's the only prog element in CoF and boy is she prog!

arkitek wrote: i quite like them, but i wouldn't class them as prog. i mainly like them becuase before i got into prog i listned to all the heavy bands (slipknot cradle of filth etc) but now i listen to everything their latest album and the song NYMPHETAMINE is awesome

Sorry to break it to you:

You've been listening to bad music.

They are more  a image-band than something else!

Kitsch if that's the word!

Certif1ed wrote: I must admit I like everything I've heard by CoF - and as someone has pointed out, they are one of the most imitated bands of their genre (whatever that is). That doesn't mean that their clones should be considered prog, but CoF themselves strike me as being incredibly progressive. Check out Midian as a prime example - but you'll need to have a taste for "Black Metal" (or whatever you want to call it) first.

Believe you me, that style you're talking about was bing pioneered by Emperor and Dimmu way back when. And look how they turned out... horrible (expect for Emperor, whose two first albums are superb symphonic Black Metal). Musically, they are boring and cliched, using overused speed metal melodies that were too passe for Mercyful Fate...

I HIGHLY reccomend you take down this list of good albums to kick off your BM listening with:

Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky; Transylvanian Hunger
Emperor - In the Nighside Eclipse; Anthems at the Welkin at Dusk
Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas (Not that amazing, but essential nevertheless)
Burzum - Burzum/Aske split; Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Immortal - Total Holocaust
Graveland - Thousand Swords
Bathory - Blood Fire Death; Hammerheart
Sarcofago - I.N.R.I.

Those are all the classics.

Be sure to check out these bands at on point as well: Xasthur, Mutiilation, Drudkh, Negura Bunget. From there, you'll stumble upon all sorts of great bands. 

........But I do like Dimmu Borgir's Puritanical Euphoric Misantrophia and Death Cult Armageddon.....

Excellent Symphonic Black Metal! They remind me sometimes of ELP in a strange way (bombastic, symphonic, dark)

 I don't mind their image......the music is the only thing that matters.......

Abbath wrote: Believe you me, that style you're talking about was bing pioneered by Emperor and Dimmu way back when. And look how they turned out... horrible (expect for Emperor, whose two first albums are superb symphonic Black Metal). Musically, they are boring and cliched, using overused speed metal melodies that were too passe for Mercyful Fate... I HIGHLY reccomend you take down this list of good albums to kick off your BM listening with: Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky; Transylvanian Hunger Emperor - In the Nighside Eclipse; Anthems at the Welkin at Dusk Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas (Not that amazing, but essential nevertheless) Burzum - Burzum/Aske split; Hvis Lyset Tar Oss Immortal - Total Holocaust Graveland - Thousand Swords Bathory - Blood Fire Death; Hammerheart Sarcofago - I.N.R.I. Those are all the classics. Be sure to check out these bands at on point as well: Xasthur, Mutiilation, Drudkh, Negura Bunget. From there, you'll stumble upon all sorts of great bands.

The thing is that virtually no one outside of black metal fans are going to want to listen to any of this (Bathory excepted, maybe). Emperor, on the other hand, while rejected by most "true" black metallers have relatively wide-reaching appeal to (well, me and one of my friends, anyway...). And CoF have plenty of fans who've possibly never even heard any black metal (the same for DB? I'm not sure). It's fair enough to spread the word of music you like but I can't see many people on this board liking any black metal.

Abbath wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I must admit I like everything I've heard by CoF - and as someone has pointed out, they are one of the most imitated bands of their genre (whatever that is). That doesn't mean that their clones should be considered prog, but CoF themselves strike me as being incredibly progressive. Check out Midian as a prime example - but you'll need to have a taste for "Black Metal" (or whatever you want to call it) first. Believe you me, that style you're talking about was bing pioneered by Emperor and Dimmu way back when. And look how they turned out... horrible (expect for Emperor, whose two first albums are superb symphonic Black Metal). Musically, they are boring and cliched, using overused speed metal melodies that were too passe for Mercyful Fate... I HIGHLY reccomend you take down this list of good albums to kick off your BM listening with: Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky; Transylvanian Hunger Emperor - In the Nighside Eclipse; Anthems at the Welkin at Dusk Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas (Not that amazing, but essential nevertheless) Burzum - Burzum/Aske split; Hvis Lyset Tar Oss Immortal - Total Holocaust Graveland - Thousand Swords Bathory - Blood Fire Death; Hammerheart Sarcofago - I.N.R.I. Those are all the classics. Be sure to check out these bands at on point as well: Xasthur, Mutiilation, Drudkh, Negura Bunget. From there, you'll stumble upon all sorts of great bands.

You miss the point - I'm not looking to get into great black metal bands - Venom were quite enough for me!

The Point is that CoF are Progressive enough and different enough to warrant a discussion here.

I don't know all the albums on your list, but "Principles of Evil..." predates "In the Nighside Eclipse" by a year - so Emperor were hardly "pioneering" the style...

''true'' black metal sucks.Most of the players in this style are too lazy to learn their instruments so they turn to black metal because all you need is to look evil...

Cradle of Filth is not black metal by any ways,it's just fancy death metal and a little progressive

Metal is funny to me because there are so many subgenres that fans will pick a favorite type of metal rather than a favorite band.

I have no idea where exactly CoF, Dimmu Borgir, or Cannibal Corpse fit into the metal spectrum, and I don't really care. They're all hard and heavy to me, that's all I need to know.

James Lee wrote: Metal is funny to me because there are so many subgenres that fans will pick a favorite type of metal rather than a favorite band. I have no idea where exactly CoF, Dimmu Borgir, or Cannibal Corpse fit into the metal spectrum, and I don't really care. They're all hard and heavy to me, that's all I need to know.

Agreed!!!!

Abbath wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I don't know all the albums on your list, but "Principles of Evil..." predates "In the Nighside Eclipse" by a year - so Emperor were hardly "pioneering" the style... Emperor's first demo was released 1992, and they were very active within the scene from about 1990.

Didn't CoF also release their first demo around 1992?

I'm not too sure about their history before that, and don't want to enter a pissing contest - but I agree that the styles are strikingly similar. It'd be interesting from a historical perspective to see which band developed the style - but I think that the importance (as far as this site is concerned) is whether the music contains enough elements to be considered prog rock (or prog metal!).

In the little Emporer I've heard (a few tracks from "...Nightside..."), there seems to be a distinct lack of depth compared to CoF - I'll have to revisit the material again, but my initial impressions were that the drums let down the whole style when compared to CoF, and Emporer's music generally seems more repetitive and metal orientated rather than progressive - is that fair comment?

frenchie wrote: Valarius wrote: I own three of their albums, but have never cared for Cradle Of Filth. what a crayzee sentance

I was given them.

In an attempt to let it grow on me, I've heard each album a few times... but no.

Certif1ed wrote: In the little Emporer I've heard (a few tracks from "...Nightside..."), there seems to be a distinct lack of depth compared to CoF - I'll have to revisit the material again, but my initial impressions were that the drums let down the whole style when compared to CoF, and Emporer's music generally seems more repetitive and metal orientated rather than progressive - is that fair comment?

If you want the more symph/progressive styles of Emperor, "Prometheus" is where it's at - they mix in the odd bit of death metal and even some slight trad metal sounds on it, too and it's got a relatively varied sound because of that (even some folky violin bits). It might not be as complex as CoF but I'd definitely rather listen to it (especially Eruption (or The Eruption?) and Thorns on my Grave) -a lthough Abbath seems to think it's rubbish  .

I won't continue picking your post apart there, Manny - but I have to dispute your definition of prog (when will two proggers ever agree on the "true" definition? );

If the early seventies originals define prog, then uniqueness and originality must count as a prog element. The historical backtracking of CoF may show earlier bands with similar styles - but it's the overall transendence I look for - just as the early prog bands transcended their roots.

I'd like to break it all down scientifically... but there's the one aspect of prog rock that eludes my finger every time I think I've got it, and to me, it's the big identifying factor. It's not virtuosity or complexity, it's not elaborate time changes or swathes of symponic grandeur - although all those things help.

It's a feeling - a kind of organic "vibe" that transcends the music - most prog rock bands only hit it occasionally. It's that perfect cross between jamming and through composed music that results in "perfect moments" (note that a "moment" is an undefined period of time, for the purposes of this discussion ).

I can only define it through examples, and the best I can think of is "Can-Utility and the Coastliners", although all the prog greats have far more than their fair share. Maybe that's why they're still the prog greats...

Napalm Death were progressive, particularly philosophically - but never hit the prog rock vibe - not once. The Beatles actually hit it a few (rare) times, but then so did Miles and Deep Purple. That doesn't make them prog rock bands, of course - but is reason enough to discuss them, as happens here from time to time!

From my definition, Radiohead definitely stay firmly put

But your definition may vary...

Certif1ed wrote: Abbath wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I don't know all the albums on your list, but "Principles of Evil..." predates "In the Nighside Eclipse" by a year - so Emperor were hardly "pioneering" the style... Emperor's first demo was released 1992, and they were very active within the scene from about 1990. In the little Emporer I've heard (a few tracks from "...Nightside..."), there seems to be a distinct lack of depth compared to CoF - I'll have to revisit the material again, but my initial impressions were that the drums let down the whole style when compared to CoF, and Emporer's music generally seems more repetitive and metal orientated rather than progressive - is that fair comment?

Emperor's production was a tad rough, but there is a ton of depth if the music is given a really good listen. The only reason I don't like CoF is that they're far too predicatable...using way too many riffs that I've heard a million times before. Emperor was all atmosphere. There are some remarkable passages in some of their music.

I'm not trying to insult your taste, because I've been there as well. I'm merely trying to PROGRESS ( ;) ) you towards some great music. But who am I to tell someone they shouldn't like their music?