Conundrum: New vinyl or new CD ... which one?
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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54478
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Topic: Conundrum: New vinyl or new CD ... which one?
Posted By: T.Rox
Subject: Conundrum: New vinyl or new CD ... which one?
Date Posted: January 02 2009 at 22:41
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Hi there! If given an option to buy ( without the opportunity of hearing the album ) a re-issue of a 70's album that has been remastered and re-issued with bonus tracks in either vinyl form (with extra LP for the bonus material) or as a CD, which way would you jump? The is a little bit of cost saving via the CD method.
I am thinking of going vinyl for a couple of ablums with these options and was just seeking opinions from others who may have made a choice when confronted with this conundrum. ( I recently purchased Kraftwerk's Tour De France as a 2 LP set and was not disappointed. )
Cheers,
T.Rox
 ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Replies:
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: January 02 2009 at 22:49
since you're not a hifi junkie(if you were you'd just buy the vinyl) , this is a choice between romanticism and convenience, which is totally up to you ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 00:20
I'm a hi-fi junkie only in the fact that I have old analogue equipment and a nice new turntable ... and I like to hold the covers associated with vinyl! 
I think I will most likely err towards the vinyl but I am interested in what others have to say given the choice.
Personally over the years I have gone from vinyl, to nothing at all for a long time as CD's made their mark, to CD's exclusively, and now a mixture of vinyl and CD's ... though I have been trying to get vinyl whereever possible for the older items. I've gone nuts with Zappa, Gong and SBB vinyl of late, plus picked up a lot of old Aussie stuff too.
------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 00:21
BTW, I love the sig, Ansen  ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 00:37
thanks by hifi junkie i mean someone like Oliver... because vinyl sounds just a little bit better and there are people who care about that tiny difference. you have to have a realllllly good system to even hear it though. I listen to music in my car a lot and don't have much space(plus vinyl i more expensive/harder to get) so i prefer usually get cd's. i like to play vinyls every once in a while, even bought In Rainbows on vinyl, but it's just not as convenient... and i HATE having to get up and flip the record every time. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 02:30
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Without really trying to wade into the whole vinyl vs. LP thing, I finally got a copy of Hot Rats on vinyl a few weeks ago ... and was instantly surprised at how different I noticed the sound to be compared to my CD copy. You hear people talking about the 'warmer' sound from vinyl; my thought was that it was 'smoother' and less tinny than the CD sound.
I too am forced to listen to most of my music via the car stereo or the computer at work so I have a lot of mp3 files I listen to. I personnaly convert my files using a 224kbps bitrate, which is reportedly the rate at which any better is not discernable by the human ear ... but that could all be bunkum for all I know. What I do / am doing with my LP's is recording them to wav files, tweaking the recordings a bit with some wave correction software and then ripping to individual wav files and converting to mp3. With this I have the LP, wav files for posterity and to create a proper CD if necessary, and the mp3 files to whack onto CD-RW for the car and my portable HDD for listening at work ... the best of all worlds, perhaps!
------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 04:47
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My suggestion: If you're a collector, get the vinyl. Otherwise I'd settle for the CD.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 06:46
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If you're only going to play it or listen to it once, I'd recommend the vinyl. If you have a wax cylinder option, I'd go for that one. But to really enjoy it to the max, you need it in 8-track format. Seriously, if you have the money, get both. If you go vinyl (they're still LPs to me), I'd recommend copying it to CD if you have a set up to do so. I grew up with 45's and 33 1/3'ds. Even if they have the "warmer" sound quality, they are still way too susceptible to damage. You've got a needle dragging its way through a vinyl groove fer crying out loud. Snap crackle and pop baby. Can't beat the LP format when it comes to cover art though.  Ahh, the endless vinyl vs CD debate. I know there are vinyl fanatics out there and I don't want to offend you. They're both reproductions of music, what you really need to go for is having the actual artist show up and perform the music for you personally. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 07:38
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Personally, I will go for vinyl for current releases and settle for the CD or download for classic albums. Of course I also keep an eye on local second hand stores, and if I find a classic album on vinyl there I might buy that too, but that rarely happens anymore - either the copies are in really bad shape, or they're too expensive. Another option: For new releases, get the vinyl edition and download the mp3s from emusic.com. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: January 03 2009 at 13:36
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T.Rox wrote:Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 07 2009 at 01:57
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i would go for the vinyl option, as they increase in value and the cd's generally decrease in value (unless it is a ltd.edition) , also you have the luxury of a large sleeve and *usually* better sound quality -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 07 2009 at 02:12
I would disagree about that last sentence ... the more complex the signal, the higher the bitrate should be. You can use VBR (variable bit rate) and let the encoder decide which bitrate to use - if you do, you'll see that for example Thrash Metal leads to much higher bit rates than Classical music. This is simply because distorted sounds have much more complex waveforms. My recommendation: Use a program like CDex which allows you to tweak the encoding settings. Then select the LAME mp3 encoder and set it to VBR q=0 (highest quality), with the bitrate ranging from 64kbps to 320kbps. Encoding will take a little longer, but you'll get a really good result. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 04:39
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I use FreeRip, which has similar VBR features. I am ripping a CD as per your recommendations as I type! ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:23
Too right. Worse the static problem too. If there was a really interest in promoting LPs by the record industry, then this terribly inferior plastic material (very much of the 50's and processed on technology harping back to the Victorian age) would have been replaced by a far better plastic material of the modern day, that has far fewer of vinyls inherent flaws (i.e low abrasion wear, better scratch resistance, non-static build-up, improved mouldability, creep/warp-free. And as ever, the warning: if more than 15 minutes of music is held on each side of a 12" LP, then the aural range will be reduced (the best hifi deck and styllus in world will not get you this back) - boy did we suffer top end treble loss with the long Genesis LPs. Perhaps the vinyls fan might consider why Todd Rundgren wrote what he wrote on the LP cover of Initiation wrt transferring the LP on tape asap. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 15 2009 at 01:13
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^ Many ongoing "problems" with vinyl were down to the equipment records were being played on from the 60's even up to the 80's - also with proper care vinyl LP's should sound perfect with no snaps, crackles, pops, hisses, interference or barely any surface noise at all.
Vinyl LP'S (UK made) from the 60's are highly sought after as they were made from virgin vinyl - those made in the 70's were made from recycled vinyl as raw materials such as oil were an issue in those days, and they were very thin, though i have some of these and they don't sound bad at all. With proper care and storage there should be no deterioration in sound quality at all, (a good stylus will cause very little wear at all, it is dust in the grooves that causes damage) no treble loss or any kind of distortion, played on properly set up equipment of decent quality, especially the stylus/arm assembly which must be set up exactly right, should present barely audible surface noise and no interference at all. Stylus technology has vastly improved since those early days - most of them didn't even fit the groove, today they are made to closely match the original master cutting styli. Many albums i have had from new, immaterial of age, are still of good quality and should remain so for the next 500 years - no pops, clicks....and better sound quality than CD - many of those old 60's albums are excellent , but not all - many were eq'd up, designed to be played on Dansettes, especially 45rpm singles . Today vinyl LP's are made to very high standards and are highly sought after, especially the Japanese ones - but quality doesn't come cheap of course, most cost around £10 -£50+ according to their rarity.
The equipment we used in the 60's and 70's was inferior to modern equipment, it was a miracle really that you could hear any music at all on those crappy music centres. Turntable technology was still being developed and in the 70's made great leaps in quality engineering and electronics, but maximum quality sitting in those grooves was still yet to be heard. Turntable technology continued to improve, unbeknown to many, and today the most basic mid-fi turntable you can buy is light years ahead of the old ones.
When CD arrived in the 80's the technology was very basic and CD's sounded muddy - things have improved as all the major companies invested billions in improving the sound, as the "convenience" of CD'S had caught on, especially with DJ's - the easiest job in the world had become even easier! they could throw records around, mis-handle them and pile them up on their desk (and CD'S were cheap to post) -something they could never do with vinyl as they needed careful handling to maintain consistently good sound quality. Today with SACD and DVD Audio 24bit sound quality made from the master tapes digital has made huge leaps in quality, but they still need to be clean and need decent equipment to play them on. The future according to the "experts" lies in digital downloads which has a long long way to go to catch up as they sound awful, but as usual in all things these days convenience rules over quality ...alternatively there is a whole new world of quality sound to be discovered ....if you can be bothered
 ------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 16 2009 at 11:49
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Hi,
I still have nearly 1500 LP's ... and I think about 20 to 25% of them are not even available on CD ...
And I am NOT a collector. I only bought the things I really wanted and liked and heard ... and that would include at one time all Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Ash Ra Tempel, Vangelis, Mike Oldfield ...
For this day and age ... I would take the CD ... but for different reasons.
I don't have a house. I do not have a nice/permanent place for these. And moving 2K LP's is hard, heavy and specially a bummer when you are alone, and lose your job ... you have to protect the only woman that has never left you ... the records (or is it the music?).
I love the LP's ... to say there is more fidelity or not is not fair ... a good Stanton cartridge (300 mules 30 years ago), on a nice turntable (250 mules 30 years ago) and a nice pair of ESS Heil AMT's (some 800 mules 30 years ago) ... made a lot of music sound way better than it was ... period!
In actuality, it is the one thing that "brought down" the level and intensity of the experience that got you to get the album in the first place. In this sense, the digital age is massively better ... and more advantageous ... c'mon ... I love Gong ... but it sounds like sh*t compared to the original, and does not have the "complete" personality that it did before, specially "You" ... it did have a fabulous rocksolidbottom when Pierre Moerlin toured with them in the 90's here in the West Coast ... which made it better, and fabulously more enjoyable ... as compared the the jazz'ier version when Pip was with them.
The advantage of the Digital and CD age, is that we now do not have to miss these variations anymore. And we can live through/with the artist work better, and the artist can be more faithful and complete and accomplished with his own work.
It kinda blows me away that with all the synth/digital technology out there, that even bands like Gong have not picked up a couple of patches and synth modules and brought a computer instead (they would if Stiv is with them I bet you a thousand times!) ... and a lot of "prog" bands sound ... dated because of it. At least when compared to the original.
By design, CD technology has way more potential than the LP did ... with one exception ... you could get louder with an LP than you can with digital on recording something and not hurt the over all process as much ... but there are other tools that can cover and dissipate that these days ... you just have to use them.
LP's had serious limitations ... and the worst one was having a chepie Radio Shack model with a lousy needle playing Klaus Schulze ... as opposed to the other example mentioned above (my system) ... it is a world of difference ... regardless of my playing the CD or LP ... in fact the CD is cleaner, and I can play it louder and not be distracted by a few minor scratches here and there. In that experience, the ability to not get distracted wins every time ... CD plz.
There is not, out there ... possibly with the exception of a Vangelis, Mike Oldfield, Tangerine Dream or even Klaus or Ash Ra Temple ... anyone that is creating music that is "better" for one medium than the other. No matter how much Neil Young vouches for the tube amps!
In the end, it is NOT ... EVER ... about the medium ... the medium is not what brings you to the ecstatic charge principles of life and spirit. It can be, and at times it may enhance something or other, but do not confuse a yellow t-shirt with a blue t-shirt as the reason why you are feeling better! Or the color of your underwear being the reason you have to go potty!
5K years ago it was an instrument called ... whatever
2K could have been a type of flute
700 years ago a form of keyboard
300 years ago grand pianos were developed
60 years ago, a thing called guitar became big
today it is just another instrument although so called "classical" outfits still don't think that a guitar fits ... they won't get the teenagers that way!
Yesterday it was LP
Then it was tape
Then it was cassette
Then it was CD
...
tomorrow ... something else
it's the theme du jour ...
I have, personally, let go of over 1000 LP's ... mostly because of the weight and the ability to house them and respect them as I think they should be ... and hopefully someone else can take better care than I can.
My Pioneer (250 mules) and cartridge (350 mules) finally died. I'm considering getting a USB Stanton turntable (Pioneer is silly and doesn't grow with the times!) ... since it can also hook up to your stereo system ... and I can run my computer sound off the stereo as well ... and ... sorry ... the computer speakers have yet to grow up and they do not sound 100th as good as the ESS Heils ... so screw digital if you ask me!
But buying it today ...
Unless you want to re-live that day at the Santa Monica Civic when Tangerine Dream was first introduced to America ... or the day the trees went on fire at the Greek Theater with Laserium ... or the day that the wind swept down Hollywood Bowl for one of these days ... it makes sense to get an LP and think of the nice girl that you went to see these with ... but you know what? I went because the music mattered to me ... not the LP, or the CD. I simply wanted to FEEL the MUSIC ... and that has nothing to do with a CD or LP.
AND ... for crying out loud ... it shouldn't have anything to do with which you choose. Or, plainly said ... you are not into the music ... you are into something else.
The only thing I miss, is the massive art work ... I loved opening up a pair of zipped lips ... or seeing ... ohh my gawd ... that's a nice ... flash ... or the beautiful art work and photography for .... you name it ... they make excellent paintings on the wall today ... I really want a Hipgnosis collection! As a matter of fact, I went after almost all artists in the Harvest/Hipgnosis variety/family and that is where my "prog" connection started ... I always thought of Roy Harper, Kevin Ayers as progressive folk'ies, Edgar Broughton Band as progressive rock'n'roll, Capability Brown as progressive harmonies (and then some!!!) ... and so on ...
Today, this art work, is not as visible as it was then for me ... I think that there is "too much" out there that makes the ability to see something different/special a bit tougher.
I still think the "source" is what matters ... and in this case it is about you and what is important to you. I am (still) going to be cleaning out some more LP's and replacing them with CD's ... and I know, and you read all about it, that there are many bands happy to do that ... and have a chance at preserving and sometimes improving what they did then, that the tape loops could not hold.
Check out, if you have a chance, the Tangerine Dream home page where Edgar and a couple others reply to some questions ... the personal stuff ... who cares! ... but the tape loops and technical stuff stories are superb ... and you know what? I appreciate the strength and beauty of the desire to express a feeling ... and I can tune in to that feeling if it comes via LP or CD ...
You either love that woman or not ... it doesn't matter how or what color of hair, or what type of clothing ... yes, it is all a part of who she is ... and that is the point ... not just the part that has way less to do with her than anything else.
As Man said ... it's 2 oz. of plastic with a hole in the middle!
Thx
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