System of a Down
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54143
Printed Date: December 03 2024 at 19:45
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: System of a Down
Posted By: Negoba
Subject: System of a Down
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 10:46
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I finally found that this was a thread about 3 years ago, but as I was putting together my top 50 albums, SOAD was in my list. I was thinking "How in the heck are some of the bands on this site considered prog and SOAD is not?" I think the reason is that they are a punk-inspired band, and since those Punks are the arch-nemesis of Proggies, there is some visceral aversion to including them. The 2005 thread certainly had some folks freaking out about the idea. Metallica just got added who are much less prog than SOAD.
BTW I am 36 years old, and this is not pining for an adolescent favorite (I reserve that for Queensryche). Some other "Prog-Related" albums are going to be high on my list too, but even some of the bands in the post- categories are less progressive than SOAD. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 10:51
| ^this should be in General Music Discussion, until they are in the site. |
Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 11:31
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they may contain some progessive elements, but I wouldn't label the band as prog. same would go for rage against the machine, deftones, etc....
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent"> 
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 12:50
| I've seen them on prog sites... and it makes me wonder why they're there. I have all their albums but would label none as progressive. Simply excellent, intelligent, political metal. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 13:04
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There is plenty of punk inspired material here, so no, not really.
Even if they are, they are prog-related at best (which you seem to agree on in your OP), and I believe the teams have more pressing issues than trying to add every band that incorporated proggish elements in some fashion. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 15:02
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Mr. Plainview, let us raise our cups to the burning corpse of Blago's career. SOAD uses dissonance (intentional, not random), time changes, exotic tonality, and complex rhythms and many textures. They get grouped with nu-metal, but what nu-metal band approaches the level musicality or even really sounds like them?I'm going to go back and read some of the definitions..... ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 15:37
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would make it hard to take this site seriously anymore -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 15:43
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Why the dislike of SOAD? Kind of Blue is on the top 100 list. Heavenly, masterful album but how in the hades did that get in here? I'm sure the story goes that Davis got included based on Bitches Brew and then the votes came in, but.......
Tell me how Porcupine Tree is so definitively modern prog and SOAD would make the site a joke?
BTW, I like but don't love both bands. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 20:42
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Yeah, a quick check of the bands database reveals there is actually a fair amount of 'punk inspired' bands here. In fact, bands which contain actual punk in it musically. The 'Punks are the arch-nemesis of Proggies', I don't get it, why people still believe that. Punk has been inspired/incorporated musically into prog for soooooo long now, it's just ridiculous people believe punk is the enemy of prog. /Rant over. And yeah, " believe the teams have more pressing issues than trying to add every band that incorporated proggish elements in some fashion" Also, this. Metallica much less prog than SOAD? Seriously? And Metallica didn't even get added to a prog genre, they got added to Prog Related. And they are easily more progressive than many of the metal bands in Prog Related, like Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, to name a few. "SOAD uses dissonance (intentional, not random), time changes, exotic tonality, and complex rhythms and many textures" Yeah, and what's your point? I can think of a bazillion death metal bands that are straight, non prog death metal that do that too. And heaps of bands were doing that WELL before SOAD. So shouldn't those bands be considered too? It's a fact that most of today's modern straight metal bands, are more complex and technical than metal bands of the 70s "They get grouped with nu-metal, but what nu-metal band approaches the level musicality or even really sounds like them?" Okay, but people argue Korn is not nu metal because they didn't sound 70 per cent like all the bands that were to be later called nu metal. Slipknot is not nu metal because they had death metal/thrash metal in their sound, because they were more experimental. Coal Chamber is not nu metal because they formed years earlier than nu metal's popularity peak. Limp Bizkit is not nu metal........it's rapcore. Deftones are not nu metal because they used a very textural sound, because they had dream pop influences, because they have hardcore influences, because they are too experimental. And you wanna know something? Of these bands, the only one I like is Deftones. And even as a fan, I call them a nu metal band, and I'm proud to say they were the best nu metal band IMO, because nu metal doesn't have to a dirty. Just because people's favorite nu metal band gets the nu metal tag, they have to get defensive and say "BUT IT'S NOT NU METAL", but the fact is, SOAD was one the bands that defined the nu metal sound, was completely in the nu metal scene, and much of their music has nu metal written all over it. If you like a nu metal band, you don't have to be embarrassed because I ain't gonna judge you, and even if I did, you could feel free to say Deftones suck in your opinion and I'd just accept that anyway. Oh and I just saw someone mentioned Rage Against The Machine in this thread. A band that gets bashed for 'being simple music. And you know what? I still listen to RATM on just about a weekly basis at the very least, learnt about 75 per cent of Tom Morello's from RATM's discography riffs on guitar and I personally think they are an amazing band, and have been listening to them for about 6-7 years now, and can't imagine a time where I would stop listening to them. And people that say "RATM is simple", try to emulate the sounds Tom Morello made on his guitar. Never in a million years, will someone re create those sounds perfectly, let create them in the first place. Few guitarists did so much with such a modest guitar setup like he did. He is a progressive guitarist as they come..............but he ain't "prog" though  And Shawn Lane in your avatar. Easily a progressive guitarist, one of the most innovative guitarists of all time (sadly, relatively obscure and unknown outside of guitar enthusiast circles), who developed innovative approaches to the legato technique, wide stretch single string diminished arpeggio patterns and innovations in the approach to alternate picking. The guy was just as innovative as Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Steve Hackett, but he just couldn't get out to a big enough audience. And I myself is particularly saddened by the fact I only discovered him last year, several years after his death. And yeah, I've heard all of SOAD's stuff, so you can't call me close minded, but even after hearing their whole discography, I decided I didn't like them. I just kinda realized that was one of my more ranty, inspired-to-write-more-than-normal type posts, but hopefully it actually conveyed something meaningful:P ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 23:41
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System of a Down can systematically bring down PA if added. ------------- 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 18 2008 at 23:57
^And that too Yeah, if SOAD was a suggestion for prog metal, we wont be taking them on board anyway and prog related has been a real sticking point as of late. -------------
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 19 2008 at 09:08
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I played in a Metallica cover band for several years starting after Justice and through the boom of the Black album. I know their stuff better (almost 5 albums note-for-note) than I know SOAD's actually, but it just doesn't hit that "prog" button in me the way System does. But, it seems this is an asked and answered queston among the mods and I won't press it. As guitarists go, Shawn Lane scares Paul Gilbert. nuf said. I've been one of those guitar nerds, er, enthuists for 20+ years, and no one touches Shawn Lane. And he can play keyboard at least as well if not better than any of the guys who played for Dream Theater. He was a once in a generation talent or better.
Tom Morello is unbelievably cool, created techniques for the guitar that simply didn't exist before. Even for those who can reproduce his stuff, he created them.
Stanley Jordan, Michael Hedges, the list can go on. Incredibly innovative and talented folks, but whether they're prog is hard to determine.
It all gets down to definitions and I suppose arguing those points is the oldest tradition on this board. About the only thing I'm sure of is that "Close to the Edge" is prog. Even "Roundabout" may not really be prog.
Oh well.....
Is "Disco Volante" prog? ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: December 19 2008 at 09:17
What does that have to do with a progressiveness discussion? "Prog" is not about how well people can play their instruments. Sure, some key prog bands are also famous for their virtuosic players, but that doesn't mean that all virtuosic players are prog, or those who are on a lesser level are not. Besides, you can't really compare Classical/Jazz-Fusion players with Rock/Metal players ... the former will usually have better technique and/or improvisational skills, but it doesn't mean they're better. I couldn't listen to Shawn Lane all day ... I'd be glad to put on some Paul Gilbert "in-between".
Yes - and no. It's in the Avant-Garde section, and depending on your point of view, none of those artists might be prog. When I joined this website many years ago, I found it quite odd that Zappa was included ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Negoba wrote:Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 19 2008 at 09:40
I was just responsing to comments about a few guitarists, and no I don't think either Shawn Lane or Tom Morello are prog. I would have loved to hear either of them play in a prog band, though!!!! 
On a side note, I would never have discovered Devin Townsend's wonderful album "Terria" without this site, and whether that's Prog or not is probably pretty debatable too. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: lady
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:33
| i'd really love to know the name of these punk influenced bands everyone is mentioning. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:36
^Seriously, this thread was bumped for this?
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:38
The Mars Volta, Coheed and Cambria, Fall of Troy, most of post-rock/math rock (although that hardly counts), The Cardiacs, and I'm sure there's some I'm forgetting.
12 days in a forum that moves as slowly as this one is hardly necroposting. |
Posted By: lady
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:42
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i hate coheed, love mars volta, haven't heard of fall of troy or the cardiacs you're awfully helpful...thanks again.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:44
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^Dude, it's not so much about it being bumped after 12 days, but more about what the posted was asking which is not helping this thread progress in anyway, and plus, this thread should just be dead, this band isn't going to be here anyway. But yes, Henry answered the question sorta. Fall Of Troy is pretty post hardcore-ish, not really post rocky at all. -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 21:28
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But post-hardcore-ish is punk-ish, right? The post-rock connection to punk is tenous except when you look at the core of the music, which is what causes people like Ivan to say that post-rock isn't prog. But that is further off-topic: the point is that the prog community has embraced TMV, and that shows that punk influences are not a deal-breaker. Also, if this were another forum I might get upset at tangent derailing, but we tend to have fairly low standards in regards to that sort of thing. ;-) And if the thread is dead because they don't deserve to be here and will never be here, which is something I agree with, is not the tangent the only useful thing that can further come out of ti?
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 21:38
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Post-Hardcore isn't punk-ish, it is punk. It's a sub genre of punk and also, hardcore. Wait, I misread your post anyway, I thought you were saying Fall Of Troy was Post-Rock-ish. Damn it, woops. Yeah, Fall Of Troy is pretty much progressive Mathcore/post Hardcore. And yeah, Post Rock is (sorta) aesthetically linked to punk, but musically, the link is weaker, but you can sorta still hear punk in post rock, to varying degrees depending on the band I guess. And yeah, the tangent was sorta cool I guess:) But now, THREAD MUST BE LOCKED. Or something to that effect. -------------
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Posted By: mirco
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 15:54
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I agree with the post initiator. SOAD has more prog elements than a bunch of the bands in this site, imho. ------------- Please forgive me for my crappy english! |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 15:58
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I like them but unique within genre does not equal 'prog rock' adding them would just cause an incessant uproar that more or less isn't worth it |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 16:15
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Creative, yes. Prog, not at all. -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 16:21
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I've conceded this one awhile ago. While there are certainly bands here with less progressiveness than SOAD here, I've now watched some other bands also get turned down and in the end I think the site probably needs to be more selective rather than less.
Doesn't stop me from enjoying this great band though. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 16:25
as well it shouldn't a lot of people seem to have the mentality of 'prog= good' as an irrefutable rule a lot of people also mention that people have this rule this isn't a very original post now is it eh whatever |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 17:34
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Well in the most polite way possible, I can name a good 50 non-prog metal bands out there whom are more progressive than System Of A Down (Antigama naming one). I wouldn't consider them for addition for a second. I see where you are coming from with the whole "SOAD is prog", but I think they are more experimental metal than prog metal and wouldn't really be a worthy addition IMO. Then again, I don't think even The Beatles, Metallica, Fall Of Troy, Battles and Maiden are worthy additions if I'm honest.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 19:09
Battles is Math Rock so I think that justifies their inclusion to PA and The Fall Of Troy is a post hardcore band with progressive rock elements, IMO. ------------- "I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..." |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 19:13
Not to mention they were both approved by the Heavy Prog team (The Fall of Troy is still in HP, while Battles was moved to Math Rock).... Sometimes it would be nice to know why people object to our decisions - not that we are infallible, of course . |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 21:06
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Yeah, but SOAD has achieved commercial success and thus proven to those who don't much of their oeuvre that they are in no way prog. It's the eternal PA conundrum - if too many people know your name, but not your music, they still feel qualified to judge it as not being progressive. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 21:13
Not sure what your trying to say... but I can assure that I'm very familiar with SOAD since I'm a huge fan and its not prog IMO. ------------- "I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..." |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: March 24 2009 at 21:49
Whoa whoa whoa now, I wasn't making an attack  We all have the right to disagree with something though right?------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 25 2009 at 00:39
Well, Battles does fit the experimental/math rock thing, so that's just easy anyway. Beatles, I honestly couldn't care about and don't bother listening to. Hard to say for The Fall Of Troy, as much as I like that band. We can also argue round and around about Metallica, but no one is calling them prog either, they're in prog related. Dream Theater, to name just one band, derived quite a bit of their compositional flow from the way Metallica were writing, particularly some of the songs off MoP and AJFA. A few years ago, maybe I would have found the idea of Metallica being prog metal-ish to be absurd so in a way I can sympathise with you, but I sat there and listened to AJFA and Images and Words back to back, and it started to really click and how compositionally AJFA is not that far off from the Prog Metal of Images and Words. Try it one time if you can, maybe you'll see what I mean. Although, if hypothetically, Metallica had not yet been added to the archives with me now being a member of the PMT (I wasn't at the time of Metallica's addition to PR) and it was being put up for Progressive Metal, I would have objected, but prog related I can easily live with, because there is a huge distinction between the two. -------------
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