Gibson or Epiphone guitar??
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Topic: Gibson or Epiphone guitar??
Posted By: J-Man
Subject: Gibson or Epiphone guitar??
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 10:50
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Okay... right now I have an ugly guitar that just broke.
I want an affordable, but good guitar.
I'm looking at either an SG or Les Paul.
Which one should I get??
Also, I'm short on cash and am torn between the Epiphone or Gibson versions.
I can afford an Epiphone SG or Les Paul, but would need to save some more before I can get a Gibson.
Is there a signifigant difference for a beginner guitarist between the Epiphone or Gibson?
If so, what is it?? ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Replies:
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 11:04
| And also, is a Tokai Les Paul much better than an Epiphone one? |
Posted By: N Ellingworth
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 11:22
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If you're a complete beginner go for the Epiphone, you can always upgrade to a Gibson later, make sure you try both the SG and Les Paul though as they do actually sound quite different, in my experience the SG is a much more aggressive guitar then the Les Paul, some people attribute this to the maple top on Les Pauls that's missing on the SGs. One major difference between the Epiphones and Gibsons these day is where they are made (Korea or USA) and the price, but with modern CNC machines the actual quality of the bodies and necks should be about the same. The most important differences though will be the quality of the hardware installed on the guitars the Epiphone will have cheaper tuners, bridge, pickups, wiring etc. Now the cheaper tuners and bridge won't really affect the sound too much only tuning stability but in my experience any SG or Les Paul will stay in tune for ages. The pickups and other electrical bits though do affect how a guitar will sound. Whislt the Epiphones will sound fairly good and are certainly more than adequate for any beginner the Gibsons will ususally sound better. I can recommend the Epiphone G400 (the set/glued neck Epi SG), I've had one for a few years now. I don't play it as often as my other guitars but I have set it up so it excells at particular styles. There are a couple of downsides to the SG and Les Paul, the SG tends to be neck heavy which can be annoying standing up and Les Pauls are really heavy in comparison to a regular Stratocaster style guitar and even the SG. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 12:24
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Check out the Line6 Variax too, if you have a chance. Compared to a Gibson Les Paul the Variax 300 is much more affordable ... depending on the Gibson model you're considering, you might even buy a Variax 300 and a POD X3 Live for the same price as the Gibson guitar alone. I would particularly recommend this combination for beginners, since it allows you to explore a huge variety of sounds. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 19:17
Indeed...the guitar player of my band has one of these guitars along with the Pod and it sounds amazing. Way better than my Epiphone Les Paul. ------------- "I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..." |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 20:29
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The best comparison I've heard between the Epi & Gibson LP models is this "replace the PUs for $300, and you're 90% of the way to a Gibson". Do check out the various Epi models as they do also vary in price, just as the Gibson models do. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 01:01
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I have owned a Gibson SG - they sound fabulous but the string tension is very high and is only really recommended for experienced guitarists, not softie weekend players like me - your fretting fingers feel like they are being sliced, and the frets are so high a degree of skill is needed to stop the high 'E' from slipping off the edge of the neck. Tony Iommi tuned his guitar down to compensate for high string tension due to his finger problem.
A friend of mine has an American Gibson Les Paul and of course sounds fantastic, very deep, bluesy and grunty, and very high output from the pickups. I once owned an Epiphone Custom LP , it was quite good compared to the Gibson, better than all the copies, but you could easily hear the shortfalls, even with Seymour Duncan pickups - remember these will make a good guitar sound great but make a cheap guitar sound rubbish - putting these on a cheap guitar is a waste of money - believe me i've done it myself!
 " you can put lipstick on a pig - but it's still a pig...!!"
Remember you always get what you pay for, cheap guitars are good for starting out on but get a genuine Gibson or U.S.A. Fender and you will have a faithful friend for life
 You can still buy an American Fender Stratocaster used for £400 -£500 ( i have one), they were always designed for slick mass production as opposed to the Gibson LP, which are very expensive to manufacture, hence the high price tag, but are worth every penny, and are an investment which will always hold their value!
Never use a soft gig bag - always carry out your guitar in a hard case, and change the strings at least every 6 months!
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 03:30
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My reply of doom comes soon!
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 03:33
Most of this, is pretty much right. Modern SG-400s come with Grover Tuners , and they work pretty well. For high gain applications, the stock pickups leave a lot to be desired. Too thick and muddy and not clear enough, which will work in stoner rock/metal/drone doom , but wont come across very well for other rock styles, and certainly I would steer clear from the stock pickups for heavy metal applications. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 03:39
A good recommendation indeed. The most important thing about amp modeling devices (if one were to use a regular guitar with say, a Line 6 POD X3 Live for example) is that it can take ages to find the best tone possible. It can take months for many people to truly get the most of an amp modeling/multi effect unit and if you don't enjoy tweaking to that extent, stay well away (although arguably the same can be said about Mesa Boogie Rectifiers...many people need lots of time to dial in a great tone). But if you want heaps of different guitar tones, amp tones, many effects, a recording solution, a lightweight preamp that is heavy weight on features and are willing to put in the time, a Variax combined with a X3 Live is quite possibly one of the most versatile guitar set ups ever. And again, if you put in the time, you will be rewarded with great tone. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 03:55
High String tension? I have be honest, that is a load of garbage. A Fender Strat WILL ALWAYS have a higher string tension than a normal Gibson/Epiphone if the same string gauges are used on both guitars. The Strat has a 25.5 inch scale, while a Gibson has a 24.75inch scale. The ONLY reason why you must have a high string tension on your Gibson is because of heavy gauge strings. I play 25.5 inch scale guitars because Gibsons ARE TOO LOOSE. Every time I play a Gibson set up with 9-42 gauge strings, it just feels far too slack. To say a Gibson has a high string tension and is recommended only for experienced guitarists because of that is purely false information. Tony Iommi in fact used to tune his SG about 10 cents above E standard. He only began to tune down after the accident with his fingers because he needed the reduced tension to compensate for the accident. He was perfectly fine with normal tuning and the string tension prior to the accident. "and the frets are so high a degree of skill is needed to stop the high 'E' from slipping off the edge of the neck" Again, incorrect. Gibsons use 6130 fretwire as standard.....this in fact the lowest fretwire you can buy as far I know. If you found the lowest fretwire in existence to be too high, I can only imagine the difficulty one would have with bigger sizes. I use 6105 fretwire which is equal second tallest fretwire with 6100 (supplied from Dunlop) and to me it's still not high enough  I plan to use Dunlop 6000 fretwire for my next guitar. Taller fretwire actually encourages superior technique (hence my desire for Dunlop 6000 fretwire). It forces you to use a lighter touch and some people (including myself) feel it assists in vibrato, particularly the wide vibrato technique. -------------
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Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:00
Has anybody ever used one of these?
Marshall Guv'nor I used to gig using my Misicman Stingray 1 active through a Fender Switcher amp. It sounded as though it added another 50 watts to the Switcher.The tone was fantastic.In conjuction with an MXR compressor pedal I could get limitless sustain without any degradation whatsoever. ------------- 
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:16
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My opinion? Gibson's quality control as of late has been pretty sub standard. I've played a lot of examples of 5000 dollar Gibsons with poor fretwork. They partly addressed this by introducing the PLEK fret set up system with the Les Paul 2008 Standard(a machine which determines fretboard radius, fret height, handles fret dressing and all to extreme precision, beyond that of most humans). At the least I can say that means all the 2008 standards will have exceptionally good fretwork, since the human element is taken out of the equation. They also have a chambered body, to reduce weight. But the biggest beef i have with Gibson.......their pricing. A Les Paul 2008 Standard costs 5000 AUD in Australia. I can quite literally get myself a custom made guitar TO MY EXACT SPECS AND LIKING for about 1000 AUD less. When you have to pay so much for a stock off the shelf Gibson, it's incredibly poor value for money. Go on pretty much any guitar forum board (except Gibson forum boards with their Gibson fanboys) and it's pretty much established most people believe all Gibson guitars should cost at least 20-30 per cent less to be truly worth what you pay for. And even guys in the US who don't have to pay the extra on top for shipping costs, agree Gibson has been over priced for quite a long time. Want a great guitar that is exceptional value for money? A Schecter C1- Classic. Depending on where you in the world, they are as much as 50 per cent to 65 per cent less than a Gibson Les Paul Standard They come already equipped with Seymour Duncan pickups, including the JB bridge pickup, which I have sworn by ever since I started using them in 2005. This pretty much already means you wont have to change them out for something else, since they are already high quality aftermarket style USA made pickups anyway. Hordes of Schecter C1-Classic owners sold their Gibson Les Pauls because the C1-Classic absolutely slayed their Les Pauls in terms of tone, playability and in many cases, quality too. They also come with a 5 way pickup selector....something Les Pauls don't have. This means the Schecter can not only do Humbucking tones, but also single coil tones, so it's much more versatile than the Les Paul. A C1-Classic can go from ultra clean reggae tones to Ultra high gain distorted tones. By the time you upgraded the pickups and electronics of a upper range Epiphone to match a C1-Classic, the C1 comes out cheaper. And also the fact that it's far more affordable than the Gibson to boot. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:19
Err, a bit off topic don't you think?  They are not bad pedals though, although personally I wouldn't buy one myself (I would much rather a Robert Keely Modified Ibanez Tube Scream TS-7 myself)  I don't see how a pedal can sound as if it adds power to an amp. Adding more gain would in fact be doing the opposite...........decreasing headroom. Adding power increases headroom and thus you can get a cleaner sound before breakup. -------------
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Posted By: Man Erg
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:52
The emphasis was on SOUNDED! Right! Back on topic...off you go.I'll shut up  -------------
Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 05:40
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i may not be as experienced as you Hughes in the world of wood and wire, but i speak as i find - i have also read from various sources about the string tension on SG's, the rake angle of the headstock may be a contributory factor, but on mine i even fitted 9's but it was still uncomfortable to play, and i sold it. the frets did seem higher, too, they were even dressed with plastic strips as was the edges of the fretboard.
As for my Strat. , i fitted my usual 10's, removed the trem bar (which i never use) and pulled back the bridge flat against the body to improve tuning stability (as recommended by EC no less) and found it still as comfortable as butter to play! i rarely need to re-tune it at all now (another topic for discussion
 ) ....maybe i'm just not a Gibson person
 ------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 07:49
I don't think that it has to be difficult to use that setup. Of course you can get lost in the features of the X3, but you can always ignore the presets and just select an amp + cabinet. Configuring the Variax is really straight forward - you simply select a model by turning the knob. Then, if you've found a great combination of guitar, amp and cabinet, you can slowly proceed with other effects - but here I've found that less is often more. But it's surely nice to have all those effects at your disposal. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 09:32
i agree with this. epiphone's stock pick ups are rather low quality, but the actual body and feel of the guitar might as well be the same as the gibson. with gibson, you are paying for the name. you should be able to find a decent epiphone lp and replace the pick ups for about 600-700, no problem. i'm actually doing the very same thing, replacing the pickups with some seymour duncans. what kind of amp do you have? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent"> 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 09:53
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In Germany the prices are like this (from the top of my head): Variax 300: 550€ Variax 600: 750€ Variax 700: 1300€ POD X3 Live: 450€ Epiphone Les Paul: 500-800€ Gibson Les Paul Special: 1000-1200€ Gibson Les Paul Standard: 1500-1800€ So, for the price of an Epiphone Les Paul you can also get a Variax 300 (which is all you need, if you don't care for the tremolo system - which should be the case if you're considering a Les Paul). ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 21:20
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Get the Gibson. Yep yer paying for the name. I love my Gibson Les Paul Studio. It's a rocker, 25 years later. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 21:26
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I am no guitar expert, but I've owned and played a Les Paul for over 20 years now. I've also played lots of friends guitars and all I can offer is to say.....nothin sounds like a Les to my ears. As I'm getting older playing the slab for long periods can wear out my shoulders, and I've started to appreciate the lighter weight of the SG. But if that's not a concern, go with an old Les. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:20
I should mention $300 CAD. I've used a Peavey Studio Chorus 210 (good until you hear yourself play a real good amp), a Vox VR30R - a hybrid amp (Tube power amp), which I hated to have to sell to get my current one - Traynor YVC50. I also have a Roland Micro Cube. If you find one, buy it. Discontinued, but not because of quality issues. The lineout allows you to plug it into your own amp (for the effects and amp models) or a PA. And it sounds great by itself and loud for 2 watts. I've played through a Peavey 50/410, which is a great value, if you can't afford a Fender Bassman. Both Vox & Line 6 have great amp modeling amps. I find these amps easier to work than the multieffect/amp modelers. Too often, the 120 page booklet gathers dust and I just end up using them for the effects instead of using stomp pedals. I had a Boss GT6, which I loved. Traded it for the YCV50. But I miss the GT6. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 23:26
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I would also recommend an Epiphone over a Gibson for the original poster's requirements. Get one used, and you will have zero concern over resale value, collectible, etc. If you take good care of it, you can always sell it for the exact same price you bought it for when/if you feel like you are ready to upgrade. I think it's good advice to say, wait until you start to develop your sound and style before you invest thousands of dollars into your guitar. You never know - you might turn out to be a Strat guy, or more into the feel of a Paul Reed Smith or an Ibanez down the road. (All of which can be obtained cheaper than a Les Paul). You can get quite far with a very inexpensive guitar. There are guitarists on tour right now with very expensive guitars, and end up sounding like mush through the P.A.'s at the venues they're playing, yet there are kids on YouTube blowing everybody's minds with their $200 Squire Strats. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 05:57
Well, I just ordered a Variax 700 ... as soon as it arrives, I'll let you know how it sounds, especially the Les Paul models:
 ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 09:37
the Epiphone is not the same as a Gibson - different wood, different maker, different country, different animal, different everything! putting in SD's will make it sound 90% Epiphone....
brands that are "name" brands have earned those good names for good reasons!
------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 12:10
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^ but Epiphone became famous for copying the Gibson Les Paul. In the 90s I was in a band, and the other guitarist played one of those cheap copies because he couldn't afford a real Gibson. Since then the qualities of the Epiphone guitars has greatly improved, and although I don't know first hand I would agree that getting a cheap Epiphone Les Paul and then improving the pickups could be a good strategy. Another way to go would be LTD/ESP: http://www.espguitars.com/guitars_ec.html - http://www.espguitars.com/guitars_ec.html Definitely a much more modern guitar, but with the looks of a Les Paul. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 19:56
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The singlecut Paul Reed Smith SE's are also a great way to get a good LP-style guitar at a very good price...
------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 03:07
One important thing to consider is the type of the neck/fretboard. If you get a Gibson/Epiphone you'll typically get a massive neck (quite thick) with a low radius, short scale and 22 medium frets. If you get an ESP/LTD you can also opt for a much more modern neck (thinner) with 24 (extra) jumbo frets and higher radius. That can make quite a difference, if you're into high speed licks. Ok, if you consider a Gibson/Epiphone you're probably not into shredding ... 
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 04:38
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^Actually, no. the necks on ESP/LTD Eclipse guitars are 12 inch radius, exactly the same as Gibson. And ESP use standard jumbo frets, the "XJumbo" terminology they use is a misnomer. The height of the fretwire ESP is just a tad smaller than Dunlop 6100s and is essentially about the same size as the jumbo frets Jackson Guitars or Ibanez use for their guitars. A lot of the extra speed I feel in the Eclipse neck over the Gibson neck, is as you said, the neck profile itself, which is shallower than the typical Gibson profile. The Eclipse range is more the 'rhythm player' range of ESP guitars, with the super strat designs having slightly faster necks and more catered to the technical player. And the ESP model only has 22 frets, instead of the LTD models 24 frets. But since ESPs are generally higher quality than LTD anyway, I would rather sacrifice 2 frets for the sake of a better guitar if I could afford it. That said, high end LTDs aren't exactly low quality -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 04:47
^ thanks for the info ... LTD/ESP don't mention the radius on their website, and I simply assumed from the rest of the specs that the radius would be higher ...  In any case, I'd say that LTD/ESP offers a nice opportunity to get a guitar that looks like a vintage Gibson Les Paul but plays like a modern guitar. You can even get them with active pickups ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 04:52
^Actually, yes, the annoying thing is, they only list the fretboard radius on the Japanese site for some reason Although you are able to get the list of more detailed specs if you contact ESP by email and ask for it too, for those of you who don't want to be confused on the Japanese ESP site And indeed, ESP Eclipse guitars are a great way to get into the Les Paul shape, and with the Japanese made ESPs, the quality is far more consistent than Gibson nowadays, and even the highest end ESP Eclipse, which has even better specifications and higher quality than a Les Paul Standard, costs 25-35 per cent less in most markets. -------------
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 14:09
Most probably. |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 15:55
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I have an Epiphone Les Paul Gothic. It's the Korean version and cost me abut £200 a few years ago.
It's thinner than a Gibson LP so it's much lighter. I've played a couple of Gibson LPs and the Epi is just as easy to play although the sound is different (a hint of SG maybe, because of the thinner body and lack of a maple top). I've been thinking about upgrading the pickups but that's more due to my urge to tinker than any deficiencies in how the guitar sounds.
I've seen Epi LP Gothics for as little as £165 new but they're made in China now and I don't know how they compare to the Korean version. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:27
Are you sure ? Both share mahogany as the body's wood. The Gibson has a carved Maple top. The Epi has a Set mahogany neck, the Gibson - One-piece mahogany neck. The gibson has an ebony fretboard, the Epi, Rosewood. Both share the gold hardware,Tune-o-matic bridge with stopbar tailpiece,Body, neck and headstock binding. The Gibson has 490R and 498T humbuckers, the Epi - 2 Alnico Classic humbuckers. Now there is no denying some difference in the craftmanship, but there is nothing that would create a chasm in sound quality (unstable tuning pegs, bad frets etc). So, in a blind listening test, both guitars using the same PUPs , most would not hear a difference. There is one, for sure, or people wouldn't pay extra for the Gibson, and it wouldn't keep its' value as well. But the price is $3899 for the Gibson, and $799 for the Epi, (based on the listings at the moment on Musicians friend) Factor in the upgraded PUPs, and if you don't care about its' collectability, you have a comparable guitar. P.S. Collectibility does not automatically equal quality. 70s & early 80s Gibson Les Pauls were a hit & miss proposition. The good ones were great, the bad ones were terrible. They hadn't established the quality controls they now have. In comparison, same period Matsomuko brands like Vantage & Aria were well built and consistently good quality guitars, great actually if you know the the Aria Pro II line. Once they moved the production out of Japan, though, the quality came down, while Gibson's was going up. So if you find an Aria, Aria Pro II, or Vantage made in Japan, you will be surprised by the excellent price to quality ratio. And as long as you don't have the ego need for "brand" names, you'll find yourself with a guitar that is every bit as good as anything made in America, apart from the high end Boutique or Custom made guitars. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: December 21 2008 at 01:03
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If you're short on cash, I don't think Gibson is the way to go. They are a littler like Fender in that the only way you're gonna get truly good-quality sound out of their products, you're gonna have to pay $900+.
It's just my opinion, of course.
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