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5 stars

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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53065
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Topic: 5 stars

Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Subject: 5 stars
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 10:56

Hi.

I am sometimes tempted to give an album (for example the PFM - Per Un Amico album) five stars. But then the pop up shows up and I get second thoughts. So four stars, it is then.

I also read other reviews and it seems to me like I am sticking to rules I very much respect. I believe very few albums, at most only a dozen albums, deserves five stars. The rest is four to one stars.

I am also starting to believe that if we do not restrain our stars, it will devalue this website. Just like inflation is harming the pound sterling or the US Dollars.

But I think it is too many five stars given. What do you think ?

Lastly, I just want to apologize and add that the reason why I am posting four-seven reviews a day now is that I am copying and moving over my reviews from other websites/magazines to Prog Archives. Many of the reviews are between five and twenty years old and I am trying to upgrade them to year 2008 before posting them here. That's why I am overactive here now.

../album.asp?id=1985 -

Replies:

Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 11:36

Welcome to the PA! I look forward to reading your reviews. As to your original question, the ratings here are really only of value to other members, so I think if you believe an album deserves 5 stars in your opinion, then go ahead and award them. The guidelines on this site are meant to give a general reasoning for a rating, but are not written in stone.

Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 11:41

I'm too lazy to write reviews, but I think the whole "There are too many 5 stars!" vs "You can only give 5 stars to CTTE and TAAB!" is kind of annoying and irrelevant. Do what you think it most helpful, and if the powers that be think you suck and don't give you COLLABORATOR PRIVILEGES, screw them, they just don't appreciate your genius. ;-)

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if you own a sodastream i hate you

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 11:48

I have given lots of five stars, and I stand by my decision. Not all of those albums are amongst my favourites - some of those 5-star ratings were given to albums (like Dark Side of the Moon or Pawn Hearts) I believe to be essential for understanding prog. Some of those 5 stars would've been better as 4 and a half stars, if there had been such a possibility to choose from.

However, like other people on here, I think the actual review is FAR MORE important than those stars. There is a difference between 5 stars given by someone who says, "wow! best album ever!", and little else, and those given by someone who makes an effort to present their motivations to the reader in an accurate, user-friendly way.

Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 11:53

Since when was Music about whats the score ? and Opinions Vary ,
Man Utd 4 - Hull 3 now there a good score Wacko

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Posted By: Takeshi Kovacs
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 12:29

Personally, I would restrict my 5 star ratings to a handful of the very best prog albums in history, given that is the maximum rating that can be applied here. I would regard that as signifying that an album is as near to perfect (in my opinion) as can be, and would want to distinguish those albums from the rest of the population.

4 stars would then be applied to albums I really enjoy very much, forming the next tier beneath the prog 'greats'. 3 stars would be applied to good, solid prog albums that I enjoy...I guess this would be the 'benchmark / standard' rating that I would apply to a good album.

2 stars would be awarded to what I consider sub-standard albums or albums I cannot get into / do not appreciate.

1 star would be reserved for rubbish, and hopefully would be used sparingly.

This is just how I see the ratings applying to my musical taste, and I'm not trying to be prescriptive about how they should be used generally. The most important thing is that there are lots and lots of good / great music out there to enjoy, and the ratings are a prerry good guide to the quality of most albums.

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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/

Posted By: Doomcifer
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 12:34

Raff wrote:

Some of those 5 stars would've been better as 4 and a half stars, if there had been such a possibility to choose from.

I agree. It would be better if the rating system was on a 10-star system. I see tons of reviews where people will preface the review with a "half star" rating.

Opinions vary.

Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 12:45

If I give an album 5 stars then it means that I believe that it is an essential album and a masterpiece work from the band. Simple.

Henry Plainview wrote:

I'm too lazy to write reviews, but I think the whole "There are too many 5 stars!" vs "You can only give 5 stars to CTTE and TAAB!" is kind of annoying and irrelevan

very true. There's a lot of albums which deserve a 5 star rating. Although I'll admit that most of the 5-stars that I've given out have been to albums already considered Masterpieces.

Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:29

'Too many five-star albums!' some cry. 'Far too many one-star albums!' say others. So if we listen to these voices we end up with a three-star system - far too crude to distinguish between albums.

And who says there are only a few masterpieces out there? Personally, I think there are hundreds. Which one of us is right? Isn't it a matter of opinion?

Finally, there are plenty of people who only review their favourite albums. Do you expect them to be given fewer than five stars?

As others have said, in the end it is the review that counts.

Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:40

King By-Tor wrote:

If I give an album 5 stars then it means that I believe that it is an essential album and a masterpiece work from the band. Simple.

Henry Plainview wrote:

I'm too lazy to write reviews, but I think the whole "There are too many 5 stars!" vs "You can only give 5 stars to CTTE and TAAB!" is kind of annoying and irrelevan

very true. There's a lot of albums which deserve a 5 star rating. Although I'll admit that most of the 5-stars that I've given out have been to albums already considered Masterpieces.

Hahaha, wow, I just realized what a huge error I made in my post. It should have been "5 stars for everyone!" vs "5 stars for CCTE!"

I really do not see the point of writing a 5 star review for anything in the top 50, much less the top 20, but that's just me. Do people really need to know that you think CTTE is a 5 star album, while Fragile is merely 4? Will it change their decision or opinion?

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if you own a sodastream i hate you

Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 13:58

Henry Plainview wrote:

There are those who, for reasons of their own, won't listen to anything remotely popular. A well-written review ought to encourage them to give a popular prog album a try. Moreover, new people come to this site on a daily basis - some of whom have come by a route that means they've not heard CTTE.

Fundamentally, though, a great review encourages me to go back to an album I know well and listen to it with fresh ears. Hard to see how that's a bad thing. My opinion of quite a few albums has been changed in such a manner.

Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:04

Henry Plainview wrote:

King By-Tor wrote:

If I give an album 5 stars then it means that I believe that it is an essential album and a masterpiece work from the band. Simple.

Henry Plainview wrote:

I'm too lazy to write reviews, but I think the whole "There are too many 5 stars!" vs "You can only give 5 stars to CTTE and TAAB!" is kind of annoying and irrelevan

very true. There's a lot of albums which deserve a 5 star rating. Although I'll admit that most of the 5-stars that I've given out have been to albums already considered Masterpieces.

Hahaha, wow, I just realized what a huge error I made in my post. It should have been "5 stars for everyone!" vs "5 stars for CCTE!"

Being that I think that was aimed directly at me I'll just say that I'd rather write for an album that has ≥ 10 reviews, but that's not always the point. I like to write, as shown in my reviews, and if on one day I don't have a seldom reviewed album to write for then why not keep my skills sharp and write yet another review for a "classic" album? Sure, no one is going to read it, but why not add my 2 cents. Although I think being someone who doesn't write reviews you wouldn't really "get it". Honestly, a lot of the "classic" albums that I review are just self indulgence, which is why I left most of them this long.

Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:13

When I started reviewing, I determined that I would only give 10 albums 5*, and I had already identified these.

However, I will have to break this since I have discovered the band IQ and one or two other albums by bands I'd not heard before, plus Mostly Autumn released Glass Shadows, but I will not give 5* lightly.

There are FAR too many 5* reviews IMO.

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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:21

Henry Plainview wrote:

if the powers that be think you suck and don't give you COLLABORATOR PRIVILEGES, screw them, they just don't appreciate your genius. ;-)

Thanks for kind words and support, it makes it all worthwhile.

We don't actually think any members "suck", and we're always open to recommendations for Prog Reviewer status. Collaborator/Special Collabarator status is given to those who collaborate in developing the site in some way. A bit radical, but that's just how we do it.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:32

Last week there was a thread talking about too many 1 star review

Now there are too many 5 stars reviews.

Must we limit ourselves to 3 and 4 (many people think 2 stars is offensive, read the scandal about my 2 star eating to Opeth.

An honest person must give the exact rating he believes an album deserves, no matter if i's 5 or 1.

Iván

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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 14:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Last week there was a thread talking about too many 1 star review

Now there are too many 5 stars reviews.

Must we limit ourselves to 3 and 4 (many people think 2 stars is offensive, read the scandal about my 2 star eating to Opeth.

An honest person must give the exact rating he believes an album deserves, no matter if i's 5 or 1.

Iván

Hear, hear! Clap

Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 16:20

My thoughts:

1. There are some albums which simply shout 5 stars to me. Close To The Edge, Thick As A Brick, Pawn Hearts, H To He..., Les Porches, Ys, ELP, Chameleon In The Shadow Of The Night, Islands... putting an arbitrary quota on these because you think there could only be 10 or 12 albums of that standard seems silly to me.
2. I fear I am a bit generous with 5 star ratings, particularly on a couple of borderline/flawed/only-personal masterpieces, but then I'm probably generous across the board. I wish I could be a bit stingier, but that's just not the way I end up thinking about music and generally when I go to harshen my marks, I can't find much I'd want to change. I figure the reader can look at my general ratings and check the review's pitch if he's really concerned about my rating.
3.

If someone knows why I think CTTE is a 5 star album and Fragile only a 4 star album, they might appreciate it in a new light. I see reviews as an effort to show why you like an album... sometimes that view helps me understand something properly for the first time. A couple of good reviews on big albums have changed my response to said albums. Alternatively, it can just be interesting and useful to look at people's tastes... if I know a guy likes Court and ELP, but isn't incredibly keen on Moonmadness, his more obscure interests might be very interesting to me.

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 20:49

I think we should start a separate thread rating the "one star / five star" threads that pop up way too often.
Maybe we should limit ourselves and only rate albums from two to four ? Or after a 2-4 (for you canucks out there , eh Wink

)

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: omri
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 08:55

I wrote in the past that I only review albums I like very much (meaning for me - at least 4 stars). I don't try to be a musical critic. I find I have no time to bother on albums I dislike so I don't write reviews of those. I rarely write reviews anyway cause I'm lazy and many times I don't think I have something to add to the 300 reviewed an album before I did it. I disagree with many of the reviews I read but then, probably, others disagree with mine. So I guess if you read the review and get a good idea why it was rated so then you should respect that writer and his rating.

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omri

Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 11:11

Too many 5 stars review used to be a problem, but I think the problem has been under control for a few years now.... and like the opening post, thiswarning about putting 5 stars too often is still effective on me.

I try to reserve 5 stars to roughly 5% of my reviews - one out of 20 - which is not unreasonable.

But this issue is still under waqtch from our members, because it's so tempting for some to skew tour rating system. But aover the years, I'd say that PA's ratings are getting more trustworthy: it used to be that I wouldn't pay attention, preferring GNOSIS2000 ratings (I still do), but PA is now all right.

PS: Like Ivàn, I don't think two stars is a bad rating either. It just means that it's for those who like the band and want more than the essentials or the very good albums from them.

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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 11:56

TGM: Orb wrote:

If someone knows why I think CTTE is a 5 star album and Fragile only a 4 star album, they might appreciate it in a new light. I see reviews as an effort to show why you like an album... sometimes that view helps me understand something properly for the first time. A couple of good reviews on big albums have changed my response to said albums. Alternatively, it can just be interesting and useful to look at people's tastes... if I know a guy likes Court and ELP, but isn't incredibly keen on Moonmadness, his more obscure interests might be very interesting to me.

But can you really add any new thoughts when it has been reviewed 450 times before?

Although you are correct, using more popular albums as a borometer of obscure albums does help. But that's what ratings only is for. ;-)

Sean Trane wrote:

PS: Like Ivàn, I don't think two stars is a bad rating either. It just means that it's for those who like the band and want more than the essentials or the very good albums from them.

I think taking the star descriptions a bit literally makes it difficult to rate albums, although I see why they are there. For example, I quite like Concentration Face/Homeboy by Hella, but you thought it was noise. Fair enough, I guess I can't really recommend it to prog fans at large. So what are we elitists to do? John Zorn cannot be rated by the standards of CTTE.

Easy Livin wrote:

Henry Plainview wrote:

if the powers that be think you suck and don't give you COLLABORATOR PRIVILEGES, screw them, they just don't appreciate your genius. ;-)

Thanks for kind words and support, it makes it all worthwhile.

Joking, EL, I was smothering my post in winks. You guys really need to lighten up about your position on the site. ;-)

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if you own a sodastream i hate you

Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 14:49

Henry Plainview wrote:

But can you really add any new thoughts when it has been reviewed 450 times before?

Probably.
Half those reviews are probably just 'wowza' or 'what can I add to all these great reviews?', and I'm probably the only person who listens to said album exactly like I do, no matter how popular it is.

Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 16:34

Occasionally I check out some ratings and their owners and you notice strange things in some cases.

I once saw a person doing 6 ratings of which 2 were 5 star ratings and 4 were 1 star ratings. Objectively spoken there wasn't too much class difference between the 6 albums but apparently this person thought he was funny doing nonsense like this. And he didn't review any of them, the coward.

Point is that jokers like this ruin the seriousness of our site (and can ruin ratingaverages !). I think we should look after things like this and ban them off the site. After all Bob is correcting reviewers too if they do a lousy job and so he should ! So why not ratinggivers who do things that make no sense ?

In this case it was also a person who never visited our site again, not for ratings, not for reviews. So this person was just a passer by obviously not taking the site very serious.

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A day without prog is a wasted day

Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 17:21

Giving 5 stars is HIGHLY subjective anyways...

there are a number of things that might be happening, i.e. someone rating his favourite albums only (or mostly)
I can't see anything bad with 5-star rating, and the pop-up message of PA does not keep ME from rating highly as long as I believe this album is ESSENTIAL or I enjoy it to a HUGE degree...
Even if I believe that it is worth of 4.51 stars, I 'll give it a five.

Others believe that nothing is perfect, so they give 4 stars

IT'S ALL ABOUT PERSONAL PERCEPTION Tongue

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 17:31

Doomcifer wrote:

Raff wrote:

Some of those 5 stars would've been better as 4 and a half stars, if there had been such a possibility to choose from.

I agree. It would be better if the rating system was on a 10-star system. I see tons of reviews where people will preface the review with a "half star" rating.

Opinions vary.

Yeah, but wouldn't the 10 star rating also be split into halves? I think we should keep it as a 5 star, but allow half stars. That way, if people try and give an album, for argument's sake, a 4.25 rating, then they'll know they're being slightly ridiculous. It's all psychological.

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 17:56

Originally posted by TGM: Orb

If someone knows why I think CTTE is a 5 star album and Fragile only a 4 star album, they might appreciate it in a new light.

I agree, because CttE is an integral effort by YES in which all the band placed a common effort, while Fragile is mostly a compilation of solo works, some of them, like Cans & Brahms or We Have Heaven, which I believe are not in the level of what Yes can do as a band.

Iván

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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 20:04

Its difficult, there is a lot of music that I really, really, really like and I have little choice but to dole out 5 stars. This has come up before and many times, 5 grading options is somewhat limited with the huge assortment of music out there. Some of my 5 star albums would probably get 9/10 or 92/100. So it is safe to say that not all 4 star ratings are created equally, nor 5 star. on the other hand, 1 star ratings are pretty equal. "It stinks, I don't want to hear it". Can't get much variation out of that. And I am sure that I am not the only one that will have ratings weighted higher simply because we listen to what we like and avoid what we don't. For example: I reviewed one Tool album, 2 stars. I have heard enough of their other stuff to know I don't enjoy them. But I'm not going to re-listen to the others just to give them a bad rating. That would be masochistic.

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https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">

https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 21:31

I'll repeat (seemingly ad nauseum) why I don't mind the 4500th review of CTTE or DSOTM - the reviewer's enthusiasm may bring me back to listening to the album again. We all love Thick as a Brick (or enough of us to rate it consistently in the top 5), but for most, when was the last time you listened to it ? "Er, mm, aaah, well, I'm trying to catch up on my new RPI purchases, then there's the obscure Krautrock album I just discovered adn .........
Get my drift. Let's let the people write. We're here to share a passion. TO propose an opinion on music. The ratings debate goes nowhere, and changes nothing. 'Cause the next "And Then There Were Three" 5 star reviewer will surely believe he has grounds to justify it. Just the same as those who want to give Metallica's "Kill 'Em All" album 5 stars no matter anyone else's opinion on its' progness.
The breaking point is when a Klaatu album is rated a measly 1. And while it has taken several courses of Anger Management to overcome my rage when I see this, my blood pressure usually comes back to just about normal, eh

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 21:33

debrewguy wrote:

I'll repeat (seemingly ad nauseum) why I don't mind the 4500th review of CTTE or DSOTM - the reviewer's enthusiasm may bring me back to listening to the album again. We all love Thick as a Brick (or enough of us to rate it consistently in the top 5), but for most, when was the last time you listened to it ? "Er, mm, aaah, well, I'm trying to catch up on my new RPI purchases, then there's the obscure Krautrock album I just discovered adn .........
Get my drift. Let's let the people write. We're here to share a passion. TO propose an opinion on music. The ratings debate goes nowhere, and changes nothing. 'Cause the next "And Then There Were Three" 5 star reviewer will surely believe he has grounds to justify it. Just the same as those who want to give Metallica's "Kill 'Em All" album 5 stars no matter anyone else's opinion on its' progness.
The breaking point is when a Klaatu album is rated a measly 1. And while it has taken several courses of Anger Management to overcome my rage when I see this, my blood pressure usually comes back to just about normal, eh

Well said

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 00:02

Hi Claude, not so accurate, being that I have to drive at least 1:30 hours in the morning and 1:00 hour in the evening, plus at least one more hour during the day, I have a 12 CD player (hate MP3) in my car and a lot of time to listen music.

Four slots are always reserved for classical Prog albums, this morning I was listening CttE and then Illusions on a Double Dimple, in the afternoon I listened Foxtrot and Shadow Circus,

Now in my house, I'm checking a couple of new possible additions, so I try to balance new stuff with classic Prog.

Get my drift. Let's let the people write. We're here to share a passion. TO propose an opinion on music.

That's what we do, in my case, as Windhawk and Guigo, been adding the last months a lot of new bands, in my case I added some Avant (You all know it's not my cup of tea), also have the clearence to add an Eclectic and Jazz Fusion bands as soon I receive info from their label.

The ratings debate goes nowhere, and changes nothing. 'Cause the next "And Then There Were Three" 5 star reviewer will surely believe he has grounds to justify it. Just the same as those who want to give Metallica's "Kill 'Em All" album 5 stars no matter anyone else's opinion on its' progness.

That's how freedom of opinion works, everybody can say his word, and this is an open site for people to add their opinions, if somebody has the guts to say Love Beach is a magnifiscent album and has arguments to support it, I will applaud him/her, will not agree, but will respect his position and consider positive opinions about a generally considered bad albums or bad opinions about about albums considered masterpieces, are necessary, as long as supported.....This proves we're not robots or fanboys, but a group of people witth their own opinion.

The breaking point is when a Klaatu album is rated a measly 1. And while it has taken several courses of Anger Management to overcome my rage when I see this, my blood pressure usually comes back to just about normal, eh

I haven't rated Klaatu, because I would be one of the guys who will qualify them with 1 star, maybe 2 at the most, IMO they have no Prog merit to be included and not even interesting music and much less originality, but that's my opinion.

Iván

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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 22:46

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Four slots are always reserved for classical Prog albums, this morning I was listening CttE and then Illusions on a Double Dimple, in the afternoon I listened Foxtrot and Shadow Circus,

Now in my house, I'm checking a couple of new possible additions, so I try to balance new stuff with classic Prog.

DB - I've been playing the new AC/DC, Metallica, King's X, Kekal. Marillion's Happiness is the Road, Picchio dal Pozzo (trying to figure what I initially saw in them), The Legendary Shack Shakers, some 50 classic rock tunes to get ready for jamming with some new acquaintances, along with listening to CBC Radio Two's new programming during the late afternoon and late at night (more experimental/alternative ... they even played a Fred Frith collaboration a few weeks back). But then someone writes a review on THick as a Brick or Passion Play, and I pull that out.

Get my drift. Let's let the people write. We're here to share a passion. TO propose an opinion on music.

Iván

DB - Klaatu, along with Ange, are my stalking horses. I insert to show how unflexible and stubborn I am, after I've preached open-mindedness. All in good humour of course.

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 22:51

debrewguy wrote:

DB - Klaatu, along with Ange, are my stalking horses. I insert to show how unflexible and stubborn I am, after I've preached open-mindedness. All in good humour of course.

At least we agree with Ange, despite the unusual and even hard to swallow French accent in Prog, they are outstanding.

Iván

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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 05 2008 at 04:46

It's very rare that I consider any band or artist having two equally great albums, usually it's one, and that gets rated four stars; If I consider it a classic, it probably gets five. A true classic always gets five, of course.

Consequently, any other albums by that artist must score at least one star lower than my favourite release of theirs.

Five star ratings should be rare, I agree that too many albums here are awarded full marks, but after a while, when you get to know the inidividual reviewers' preferences and are able to adjust, the picture becomes clearer.

I've got a bit of a mean streak, so although quite a number of one star reviews are very harsh, they do make some amusing reading.

Posted By: progressive
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 07:36

I've given quite many five-star ratings but I think it's justified and helpful. I'm a bit amused about those who give almost only 5 stars, but maybe they are right, too.

Actually I came here to talk about some other weird thin but didn't find a topic for it. So I say it now. This album
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7903 had avg. of 4.10, but after I gave five stars Wink

for it, it decreased down to 3.98 Unhappy

. Sad, somehow; I know that they use weighted system here (factors: collaborators, number of reviews..? and how?), but it's quite stupid this way. At least when it bans MY great stars. Maybe it has antibodies for me.

And still about five stars... actually I don't think any album as a perfect masterpiece.

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► rateyourmusic.com/~Fastro 2672 ratings ▲ last.fm/user/Fastro 5556 artists ▲ www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=4933 266◄

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 15:58

progressive wrote:

I've given quite many five-star ratings but I think it's justified and helpful. I'm a bit amused about those who give almost only 5 stars, but maybe they are right, too.

Not a fan of giving 5 stars to everything either, but I rather this than those guys who rate with 5 stars the bands they are fanboyus and with 1 star any album of another band that could be near the top in the charts

Actually I came here to talk about some other weird thin but didn't find a topic for it. So I say it now. This album
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7903 had avg. of 4.10, but after I gave five stars Wink

for it, it decreased down to 3.98 Unhappy

I know it sounds unfair and to a certain point it is, but it's a protection against problems like for example when a new artist is added lets say Miles Davis, we agree it's a great addition and we al acknowledge the importance of Bitches Brew, but with Biotches Brew, came 50 albums with absolutely no Prog connection, like Kind of Blue released in 1959.

The first week this album had a perfect 5 stars rating and was the most popular album of the week......The album is outstanding, but IT ISN'T PROG!!!! If the number of ratings would not affect the average, we would still have a top ten album released in 1959 when Prog didn't existed.

There's also another case, there are some rare albums rated by only one person and with 5 stars....Do ts albums deserve to be Nª 1 in the charts?

And still about five stars... actually I don't think any album as a perfect masterpiece.

That's why there are so many 5 stars ratings, because perfection is not required, it's only required to be "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music"

An album doesn't need to be perfect to be essential, and the term masterpiece is very subjective.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 16:14

Like Roni, I find it odd that his review with a 5 star rating would drop the overall rating of Myrornas Krig (his is the latest review). Very good album, incidentally. I know I've seen this happen before, and don't know why the algorithm would do this (but it was a problem that was noted, as I recall, when the algorithm was adopted).

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"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 18:56

I think that a special 6 stars rating should be given , let's suppose you could only give it to one album. For example in my case "Brain Salad Surgery" would get it.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:37

progressive wrote:

I've given quite many five-star ratings but I think it's justified and helpful. I'm a bit amused about those who give almost only 5 stars, but maybe they are right, too.

Actually I came here to talk about some other weird thin but didn't find a topic for it. So I say it now. This album
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7903 had avg. of 4.10, but after I gave five stars Wink

for it, it decreased down to 3.98 Unhappy

Logan wrote:

Like Roni, I find it odd that his review with a 5 star rating would drop the overall rating of Myrornas Krig (his is the latest review). Very good album, incidentally. I know I've seen this happen before, and don't know why the algorithm would do this (but it was a problem that was noted, as I recall, when the algorithm was adopted).

I've done the maths for all 8 'votes' (Roni's review/rating in bold as it carries a 3x weighting)...

(5x10+3x10+3x10+5x3+5x3+5x3+5x1+3x1) / (10+10+10+3+3+3+1+1) = 3.98

removing his rating gives:

(5x10+3x10+3x10+5x3+5x3+5x1+3x1) / (10+10+10+3+3+1+1) = 3.89

The only way I can get a 4.10 rating on 7 votes is to 'promote' one of the 5x3 ratings to PR status.

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What?

Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:41

crimson87 wrote:

I think that a special 6 stars rating should be given , let's suppose you could only give it to one album. For example in my case "Brain Salad Surgery" would get it.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 13:10

Dean wrote:

The only way I can get a 4.10 rating on 7 votes is to 'promote' one of the 5x3 ratings to PR status.

I've just been onto the Wayback Machine and in 2007 Myrornas Krig did have a score of 4.10 on 7 ratings

Unfortunately they haven't archived anything more recent than that, nor do they have the page I need to see how those votes were distributed, so sadly I have no explanation.

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What?

Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 17:36

Collab/ non-collab/ ratings w/out reviews is but one part of the overall calculation, I believe.

Anyway, this is the most recent topic I can find on this topic http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51634 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51634

Not sure when M@X last made changes to the algorithms.

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"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 18:32

Logan wrote:

Collab/ non-collab/ ratings w/out reviews is but one part of the overall calculation, I believe.

Anyway, this is the most recent topic I can find on this topic http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51634 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51634

Not sure when M@X last made changes to the algorithms.

I *think* the AVG = (R*N+r*n)/(N+n) formula is only used to calculate chart position, the rating displayed on the album page is the average rating for that album ('r' in the formula).

I've manually recalculated several album ratings using the method shown in my earlier post and it always gives the "correct" answer.

I think the explanation given by mailto:M@X - M@X in the last post of the thread you linked is what that happened here:

M@X wrote:

The problem (i hope not too global) is related to a problem in older calculation of the avg. rating of the specified album in the past, data corruption. So the last review/rating posted made it recalculate correctly the new avg. rating and now giving the correct value.

Roni's rating of the album (27/11/08) forced a recalculation of the average from when it was previously calculated (after Hugues' review 27/4/07)

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What?

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:19

King By-Tor wrote:

crimson87 wrote:

I think that a special 6 stars rating should be given , let's suppose you could only give it to one album. For example in my case "Brain Salad Surgery" would get it.

I was being serious about that one!!

Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 22:25

crimson87 wrote:

King By-Tor wrote:

crimson87 wrote:

I think that a special 6 stars rating should be given , let's suppose you could only give it to one album. For example in my case "Brain Salad Surgery" would get it.

I was being serious about that one!!

Oh. Sorry, I don't like the idea. Wink

I always hate the idea of giving something 6 out of 5 or 11 out of 10 because it defeats the purpose of the rating system. The website eliminated the use of 'zero star' reviews so I don't think the other extreme should be available, even if for one use. For me it just makes people look like big, incredible fanboys and I almost lost faith in our own Mr. Orb when he published his review of Larks Tongues in Aspic saying it deserved 6.

If you're going to give something a 6 and 5 means perfect then you should do a once over of your own evaluation system.

Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 12:13

When it gets right down to it, unless the reviewed album is relatively obscure with very few reviews/ratings or has some element of production that can be universally considered to be poor, the rating portion of it reflects as much on the reviewer as it does the album. I am not sure how many reviewers realize that there are many lurkers out there who look at an album on PA they may know they like and move on to new albums based on the review lists of PA reviewers who rated that album favorably. I am sure that was at least part of the intention of the reviewing/rating system, particularly in the case of Specialist collaborators. So in that regard I have absolutely no problem with 5 star reviews given in a relatively liberal manner. I certainly find it easier to follow a particular reviewers trends when they have stronger polarization to their ratings than somebody who's list is riddled with 3's. Yeah, one should take the time to actually read the reviews, but a reviewers ratings are an effective initial pointer to the albums they find remarkable so others have an easier time finding reviewers with similar tastes. It would be a daunting task to read all of the 3 star reviews of some of the longer winded reviewers to find out exactly whether it fits the readers tastes.

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