PA's Battle to Stardom B5: Rush v. Kayo Dot
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
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Topic: PA's Battle to Stardom B5: Rush v. Kayo Dot
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Subject: PA's Battle to Stardom B5: Rush v. Kayo Dot
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:28
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One of the most unique modern progressive metal bands and possibly the most influential progressive hard rock band of all time are against each other this round. Make sure to vote in order to make the results happen! Please: If you are not familiar with one or both of the band's material, I urge that you use the links provided and at least listen to the samples on their respective pages (or Youtube if the particular band has no online streaming). ../artist.asp?id=621 - Rush's PA page: http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=609 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=609 Kayo Dot's PA page: http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1870 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1870 As always, discussions are encouraged. Recap: Round 2 B1: B2: Emerson, Lake and Palmer v. B3: B4: Van der Graaf Generator v. B1: forum_posts.asp?TID=52648&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52648&PN=1 B2: forum_posts.asp?TID=52714 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52714 B3: forum_posts.asp?TID=52795 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52795 B4: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52869 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52869 Round 1 A1: A2: A3: Emerson, Lake and Palmer v. A4: A5: Can v. A6: A7: Van der Graaf Generator v. A8: Samla Mammas Manna v. A9: Rush v. A10: A11: Henry Cow v. A12: A13: A14: A15: A16: Gentle Giant v. A1: forum_posts.asp?TID=51423&PN=2 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51423&PN=2 A2: forum_posts.asp?TID=51492&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51492&PN=1 A3: forum_posts.asp?TID=51567&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51567&PN=1 A4: forum_posts.asp?TID=51630&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51630&PN=1 A5: forum_posts.asp?TID=51711&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51711&PN=1 A6: forum_posts.asp?TID=51778 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51778 A7: forum_posts.asp?TID=51855 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51855 A8: forum_posts.asp?TID=51928&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51928&PN=1 A9: forum_posts.asp?TID=52011 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52011 A10: forum_posts.asp?TID=52091 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52091 A11: forum_posts.asp?TID=52158&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52158&PN=1 A12: forum_posts.asp?TID=52246 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52246 A13: forum_posts.asp?TID=52336 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52336 A14: forum_posts.asp?TID=52411&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52411&PN=1 A15: forum_posts.asp?TID=52487&PN=1 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52487&PN=1 A16: forum_posts.asp?TID=52571 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52571 ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:31
Well that was easy. 
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:32
| http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=177390 - Rush |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:33
Yeah, it was for me too.  -------------
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NaturalScience wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:34
Mamma Mia! 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:35
 ------------- 
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Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:49
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Probably the easiest poll yet... ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:50
| It's the next one that's going to be impossible for me. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:01
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Much as I do like Rush, and as important to me as the band was to me in my teens, Kayo Dot's ../album.asp?id=8708 - Choirs Of The Eye is definitely a good enough album for me to give KD a vote. It also has the advantage over Rush albums, when it comes to my tastes, with the instrumentation. Rush does well with synths and keyboards, but I love having non-typical rock instruments in a line-up -- it makes it much richer and more diverse for me. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:01
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Kayo Dot This is distinctly unfair!  I demand a re-match. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:05
I tried Dowsing Anemone with Copper Tongue and just found it to be a mess. There were some interesting passages in there but overall the album couldn't hold my interest. Yes it's far more avant, out-there, whatever, but it didn't do it for me. I'll take Rush's solid, consistent output in a heartbeat. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:09
Dowsing Anemone... doesnt do anything for me either, particularly the two longer tracks at the end. However, Choirs of the Eye and Blue Lambency Downward are both masterpieces IMO. The Manifold Curiosity is on the bands page here, I suggest you give it a try to see how you like it, its fairly typical of that album, andalso cmpletely different to anything on the two following albums. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:12
| I could easily vote for Rush, but I've got to admit, what little I've heard from Kayo Dot has really got me interested. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:12
Interesting - is there a lot of agreement that Dowsing was a bit of a misstep? I will certainly check out the sample and see if I can get one of the other albums you mentioned. I certainly don't want to judge the band based on something that's not their best work. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:14
I much prefer Choirs of the Eye to Dowsing Anenome.... You've found Rush consistent? I haven't been able to get into modern Rush. Even their latest, which some considered a return to form, I found unimpressive and not satisfyingly progressive (the former ones more mediocre), but to each his or her own taste. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:21
Dowsing is a marmite album, you either love it or hate it. Many people love, as seen by it being voted album of the year 06 here by the collabs, but there's a good number of people that dont like it for its feeling of being noodly and that it takes a lot from drone music. All three of their albums are very different, with CotE leaning a lot more to the extreme metal side at times, Dowsing Anemone... much more drone/post metal influenced and BLD being more jazz and I dont know what, but no metal their. They're also in the wrong genre, they belong in Avant Garde. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:24
Yes, I have found Rush consistent. Their latest is indeed not progressive, but rather a good rock album that I do enjoy. I could say more, but as you said ultimately it's just a taste thing. They've been a favorite band of mine for almost 20 years. That's not going to change just because of my newfound enjoyment of bands like Henry Cow or Univers Zero. edit: listened to the Choirs of the Eye sample and unfortunately I wasn't really taken with it either. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:36
That's my vote  |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 16:38
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Rush was a favourite band of mine through most of the 80's, but I went off hard rock in the 90's -- was more into jazz and electronic then (subsequently I've been moving back into hard rock more). I'm still big on early Prog bands I loved when I was a kid such as Focus and Gryphon, but my tastes have changed quite a bit throughout the years as I've gone through different musical phases (sometimes I return to music I once loved, then lost interest, then regained interest). As for Kayo Dot, I still don't have Blue Lambency Downward, but like what I've heard: http://www.myspace.com/kayodot - http://www.myspace.com/kayodot |
Posted By: JROCHA
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:13
| The Power trio |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:25
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consistency is boring ;P a vote for meandering towards excellence ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:30
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I've thought of this before, but it would be neat if people who vote would post their favourite albums by both bands, and mention which albums they've heard. I still don't have Blue Lambency Downward by Kayo Dot, or the KD/BPS album, and my favourite KD album thus far is Choirs of the Eye. For Rush, my oldest friend is an uberRush fan and got me into Rush 25 years ago with Hemispheres (an album I adored on first listen), and subsequently I have heard all of the Rush studio albums, and several live albums, because of him (and the 70's - early 81 albums I've heard a great many times). I never got into the late 80's and up Rush albums, but perhaps because I was sharing his father's resort house with him for six months (what a beautiful home that was), I got very tired of hearing Rush (and he probably got tired of hearing Monty Python and Cheech & Chong records ). I do still like Rush, though. My favourite is All the World's a Stage, and my favourite studio album is Caress of Steel (used to be Hemispheres).
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Posted By: Anderson III
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:44
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Kayo Dot gets my vote! I just love experimental music and never got into hard rock. Rush could be the greatest hard rock band in the world, but avant garde always has the upper hand in my book. ------------- "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo |
Posted By: febus
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 18:35
Hi, Greg is that your wife?/ in the affirmative, congrats!
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 18:55
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No, but boy does she look similar to someone I knew well in Japan in that picture (guess that's why I chose that picture; there's still a little inner mounting flame... oops, wrong poll).
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 19:22
Rush of course. In before the rape. Oh, wait... ------------- 
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 19:30
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Kayo Dot is much more intresting and fresh then the boring and mediocre band that is rush. ------------- 
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 19:42
from each: Dowsing and A Farewell to Kings are my favourites. heard the three albums by the Dot along with a split EP, and with Rush I've heard everything up to Moving Pictures, at which point I abandoned them ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 19:56
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very easy RusH -------------  |
Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 20:50
Well I, for one, agree. Obviously that isn't the consensus, though. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 21:05
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At the very least, this thread has accomplished something in causing some of us in checking out other Kayo Dot albums. Because Dowsing Anemone is anything but interesting. -------------
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 21:18
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My favourites from each, A Farewell to Kings and Choirs of the Eye.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 21:20
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the me from about 3 years ago would be shocked I'm voting against Rush, but Kayo Dot wins
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 22:19
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With Rush, I don't listen to anything after Movingpics, after that it was pretty meh IMO. Kayo Dot, just kick ass and more ass. Blue Lambency Downward is incredibly addictive and one of the most emotive albums (and overall one of the best IMO) to come out this year. Oh, and I voted Kayo Dot:D ------------- 
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 29 2008 at 23:30
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Oh no, the time for Kayo Dot has come Why it has to be Rush?? This is unfair I bet half of the voters here has not given the deserved oportunity to KD... Now I leave, I'm going to cry while listening the manifold curiosity ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 00:27
| Rush to the polls. |
Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 00:32
Add me to the list of people sad over KD's defeat  . Rush just doesn't seem to do much for me..
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 04:10
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Come on, Kayo Dot! I know you can come back!! You have to!! Damn it, clear! *buzzzz* ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Roj
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 07:19
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Kayo Dot
I know not.
Rush are hot
like them a lot
Should I vote
or miss the boat?
Won't matter though
So I'll say "no".
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 13:59
Just goes to show that when you have wildly innovative vs. safe, people take safe. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 14:04
Well that's me. I couldn't posssibly like anything innovative like Magma, Henry Cow, Univers Zero, or Koenjihyakkei by voting Rush....could I? |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 14:18
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Kayo Dot. When they get amazing they are really superb. They defy categories. Rush is more consistent, but hardly have absolutely mindblowing stuff, mostly they are just fine. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 14:48
Well I like Rush also, but come on!! It can't compare!! And look at my screenname... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 15:11
Kayo Dot wildly innovative...? What I heard from them was quite lightweight. Not bad by any means, but a trip to another planet it wasn't. Toby Driver's solo effort seemed significantly more engaging. Anyway, I won't vote, I haven't heard enough from Kayo Dot, but what I have heard doesn't give it a clear edge over Rush. |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 15:17
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Screw Kayou dot ------------- |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 15:20
| I prefer what I've heard of Toby Driver and Mia Matsumiya's ../artist.asp?id=3460 - TARTAR LAMB to Kayo Dot. http://www.myspace.com/tartarlamb - http://www.myspace.com/tartarlamb |
Posted By: febus
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:02
That's the most stupid statement i have ever read
 ....NaturalScience mentioned he likes Magma , Henry Cow, Art Bears, National Health , Art Zoyd and of course Soft Machine, groups highly more innovative than KDot....good band but innovative??/He just happens to love Rush as well and Rush was not playing ''safe'' with Hemispheres and stuff like that
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:03
I agree entirely with Antoine here. My tastes are quite eclectic as well, but I still voted Rush. Does that mean I like safe music? Hell no, Henry Cow and Magma make up the remainder of my top 3. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:05
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Do the Ozrics know that? -------------
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:06
Yes, they're 4th. It's only categorized that way in a "gunpoint" sort of way though; I love them all so much that it doesn't really matter to me anyway. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:14
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Kayo Dot seems considerably more mainstream to me than, say, John Zorn. Hmm, a Zorn vs. Driver poll, that might be interesting.... |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:19
------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: febus
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:47
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Good answer, Alex and you are right. ...
This is not about KD i am after, but the statement of this Avantgardehead that was very negative and considered us as ''people as playing safe''..Arrogance, arrogance!!
Some people can listen to Rush the same way they do with Magma......not even sure Avantgartdhead listen to Magma anyway!
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 17:01
thanks for your clarification my friend------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 17:14
Tartar Lamb is good (prefer it to Dowsing), but Kayo Dot's latest is fantastic. My favorite by them and my favorite release of 2008. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being yours as well. The ones that are disapointed by it are mainly people that misses the metalparts that the two previous albums had a lot more of. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 18:45
I'm looking forward to getting it as I really like what I've heard of it. I only have a few albums from this year -- Guapo's Elixirs being my preference from what little I have (though it hasn't had the same impact on me that Black Oni or Five Suns did). |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 19:36
I really don't see what makes them innovative. If someone explained this to me in plain English their music might make a little more sense. All I ever hear about this band is how innovative they are - but no one ever tell us what the hell they ever innvoated. I personally find their music to be boring and drawn out, but the people who love them would simply tell me that I have no taste in music for saying so. Magma was innovative for their distinct blend of french jazz and strange spaciness, other avant acts are innovative for a number of things like bringing industrial into the realm of avant-prog (Sleepytime Goriila Museum) or for their peculiar approach to musical structure (Zappa, The Residents) and these people I have a lot of respect for. Kayo Dot - what makes them so great? I very seriously beseach thee |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 20:16
1) You can never compare artists like Zappa, Residents, Magma with any earlier artist (like SGM or KD). There's no place for this comparison. I'm not saying this because of you, just to make the point clear. Any new band (90s) hasn't accomplished even the 10% Zappa or Magma did. That's impossible. Because of this, small efforts for innovation by these new artists are rewarding. 2) Many earlier bands has tried to bring something new to the table. You have SGM bringing some metal to their clear Gong influence, Koenji trying to reinvent the Zeuhl sound, Hoyry-Kone with their explosive and heavy mixture of symph sound and industrial moments, and Kayo Dot... So, all these small contributions are really appreciated by my ears. Finally, in the specific case of KD, I've found a very interesting perspective in their concept of music. Toby Driver once said that KD doesn't create songs, they are just like movements, states, a musical image of moods, complex and changing moods. Yes, you could say "VDGG did this before", but I would add, "not so deeply". In other hand, you have a band exploring the concept of autophysiopsychic music, which is very interesting and avant . At last, the extravaganza of the compositions and the hypnotic improvisations are not easy to find in other bands... For me, this is enough to be qualified as innovative, in these difficult times ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 21:04
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mmm...hmmmm.... So let me get this strait - by your arguments. 1. We can't compare old bands to new bands. So what you're saying is that I can say that Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings are two of the most innovative bands in the world for their blend of classical music/jazz and classic rock. We can't compare them to Yes or Genesis since KD can't be compared to older bands - so these guys are the very best. That arguement makes no sense. If the band has characteristics of another, older band, then how are they innovative. VdGG made much better use of the emotional buildup than any KD song I've ever heard. 2. I have no idea what your arguement is here.
So KD doesn't create songs, neither does The Flower Kings, they build and build their small compositions into larger scale ones, and Roine Stolt often says that listening to his music is like watching a movie, by your logic, that is innovative. Complex songs and changing moods can be found in any band, any retro band and any pop band, hell, Rihanna has changing moods in her songs and her mix of Carribean "Carnival' beat combined with modern US R&B makes for a very "innvoative" combination, don't you think? The hypnotic mood that you describe can also be found in just about every and all post rock band, a genre which has been around a lot longer than Mr. Driver KD offers nothing fresh to the table. Nothing that I haven't heard before, so I bring up comparisons with one of the most heavily thrashed bands for being unoriginal - TFK - and as you can see, there's a lot of parallels. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 21:08
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voting for Rush because I simply like them better I guess . always chuckle when I think of the Kayo Dot show that Raff and I missed during our first meeting together. They were playing a Halloween show in Asheville and we were going to go see them....but something came up and we got tied up and missed it.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 21:25
| I have to go with Rush on this one. |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:57
2) I'm just saying that some new avant rock bands try to contribute in several forms to expand today's music styles. This contribution can be as just as simple as mixing previous styles with new tendencies and concepts, to create a different sound. To these ears, just like KD tries. My friend, if we fall into the comparison KD - tFK, this conversation doesn't make much sense. I perceive you have some dislike with KD (which would be totally valid, so I don't pretend you to love the band). Talking about innovation in prog will always be a until-one-dies conversation, so, I'll quit here. ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 23:07
how is that ANY different than the "retro" bands that often get bashed for exactly that?? So KD mixes old and new - how is that innovative? |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 30 2008 at 23:23
------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 01:18
| I know, but what you're saying is that the new bands like KD are mixing old with new. So maybe they do it better in some people's opinion's than the "retro" bands, but how does that make them INNOVATIVE? |
Posted By: Prof.
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 01:32
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Well, this is a little unfiar. Its like asking, "Do you prefer fine cuisine, or pre-chewn dirt."
The Trio of Power wins hands down.
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 06:01
If you have to ask, you'll never know. How is mixing someting old with something new not innovative? Another thing is the fact that Toby Driver/Kayo Dot is inspired by music that was more innovative than the retroprogbands in general are, to begin with. Mixing influences from several 19th-20th century composers, 73-74 era King Crimson, freejazz, black metal, electronic music etc.. is certainly more innovative that sounding like a mix between Yes and Genesis etc, and not really adding something that can be considered "new". ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 10:56
TFK is pretty damn innovative then and how are Yes and Genesis NOT innovative? you KD fans are a confusing bunch |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:33
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King By-Tor, you seem to be working very hard at not liking KD. This part of Rocktopus's post; "Mixing influences from several
19th-20th century composers, 73-74 era King Crimson, freejazz, black
metal, electronic music etc.. is certainly more innovative that
sounding like a mix between Yes and Genesis etc, and not really adding
something that can be considered "new".", goes a long way to answer your original question, and you've conviniently ignored it. I believe Alex's original point about not comparing modern Avant Garde bands with the classics is more to do witht he fact that rock music was only beginning to reach the hight of its development, leaving masses of room for inovation. That room is largely gone gone now so modern bands have to play around with the restricted space thats left. Your TFK comparison falls completely flat for one reason, they and every other retro band is out to do one thing, keep the style of Yes, Genesis and oters alive, using modern recording techniques and instruments is hardly inovative as there is nothing new to the music. As for the Psychowhatsit method of composing that Alex mentioned, that sounds more like the method maudlin of the Welll used, I think KD's is a bit more "normal" than that. Oh, and I'd like to know who you've heard doing the same as KD. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:41
Well you're right in that I don't like them at all and have given up trying. What I'm mostly sick of is people trying to tell me that they're the greatest thing to happen to prog in the history of the world and that everything else, by comparison, is crap. I can read all the arguments I want on this page, but going back and listening to the KD albums will not prove anything to me that they have any of the elements presented. Perhaps it's worthless to argue since I do "have it out for them" - although it has been nice actually getting people to explain their stance rather than just say "Kayo Dot is super innovative!". I still don't see any of this "Mixing influences from several 19th-20th century composers, 73-74 era King Crimson, freejazz, black metal, electronic music etc", I just hear very boring music. So to summerize - I just don't get it and never will. PS - I know the TFK arguement was quite ridiculous, but by the arguments I was getting (mixing old with new) it was quite applicable |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:54
If you dont like them, fair enough, I fully accept that they arent for everyone, and chances ae there's a lot of people that really wont like them, in the same way that I really dont like Rush or Yes (just to put up a few examples). I think I know which few people your on about and I dislike that attitude myself, especially since KD arent flawless. I cant speek about 19th and 20th century composers and free jazz as I dont know much about them, but the Crimson and Death/Black metal influences are as obvious as a slap in the face to me, only you can change the Death to Post/Doom/Drone metal influence on Dowsing.... ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:56
| Crimson I can see, and I commented on that in my review, but doesn't the presence of obvious influence bring down how "innovative" someone can be? |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 11:58
Just one more doubt, since I'm not very informed on this one. I've heard from TD interviews that KD music is pretty influenced by Yusef Lateef, including more autophysiopsychic methods. Never heard of MotW having this feature... Could you extend a little bit please? Thanks  ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:07
------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:08
| define this "higher level", because the influences I heard were pretty clear. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:17
Its impossible to make music without some obvious influence from other artists, no one lives in a bubble, inovation is what you do different with it, or add to/around it. The Manifold Curiosity is a very good example of this, the first climax has a lot of Crimson in it, but the third starts building up as Crimson and ends as full on Death metal. BTW, have you heard all of the bands albums or just Blue Lambency Downward? ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:18
Careful, your beginning to sound a bit pretentious. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:20
Give me a bit on this one, I'm going o need to look up a few things first. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:21
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:25
Just BLD, but I've streamed the rest on PA. Very good arguement by the way. I'd like to add to that by saying that it is nice to see a band not simply trying to be their influences. Even if their music isn't my thing Honestly, my biggest problem with the band are the fans who simply say "KD is better than your band because they're innovative" and give no further reasoning. Hence my statement about "Toby Driver's high horse" at the end of my review. I think that you (Sleeper) and Pnoom are the only 2 that have ever dared to go in depth about it while sounding coherent |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:35
Thanks, I think I've seen Dim and The Ancient go in depth on KD as well, but I know what your saying about certain fans. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:36
, sorry if it sounded pretentious  . Just to compare, a "middle level" would be, let's say, DT having influences of Maiden? They're clearer, what do you think?------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 12:40
| I think "higher level" was just bad wording. Maybe "minor" or "major" compared to "higher" and "lower"? |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 13:02
 sorry, my english is not very good, sometimes I tend to confuse the meaning of some words I never wanted to say "KD is better than anything because they're innovative" or to mean "they are in a higher musical level", no no. Just to mention, I like KD, I like very much the TD releases because I think he's a good musician (I would never say he's a Zappa or something... for me, he's a very good young musician, nothing more), but KD is not my fav band, in fact I do prefer MofT, but even so, I just think KD is an innovative band, with many good and some not very good moments. Thank you for your correction, very much appreciated ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 13:32
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Well I also happen to like to argue, so I suppose that didn't help
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 13:41
Arguing is the life-blood of this site. It's Halloween; let there be blood! |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 13:42
 so true |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 14:08
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i highly doubt that many who voted for rush have heard much of kayo dot at all. obviously they ones that posted here have heard them and i mean no disrespect but it does seem a little unfair. that asside, the bands are extremely different in almost every respect. the people that rush appeals to are, in terms of musical tastes, much different than those that kayo dot appeals to. but oh well. kayo dot easily for me, one of my favorite bands, if not the favorite. They're a band i feel that is one of the most important bands of the last 20 years. ill get around to writing reviews again soon but i think i summed up my choirs of the eye review, albeit with poor wording, bad sentence structure and a heavy amount of redundancy. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:03
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Kayo Dot is one of my favorite bands of all-time. To me, they embody actual progress which is rare in this day's scene. Their music gives me chills and very weird dreams/hallucinations/visuals. It's so abstract and is an incredible journey. I like Rush also, I actually have more Rush albums than Kayo Dot albums but they don't thrill me near as much as KD. It's good hard rock with prog overtones and a very pleasant listen, but given the choice I'll reach for KD 9 times out of 10. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:07
 ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:11
Sorry snipping your post, but it's a reason why I think people who vote in these polls should post how much of the music they know so that the results have more meaning. I know there have even been best band polls with but two options where people have voted one over the other while stating that they don't even know the other one. Now that's ridiculous. Of course one could have a favourite while only knowing one option, but at least people should try to listen to the streaming music at the PA band pages, and listen to myspace pages if they are not that familiar with the music. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:13
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In my particular isolated case, who do you really think I am going to vote for? Seriously. It seems that I have only heard Kayo Dot's worst album, but I very highly doubt it would really matter. -------------
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:13
| R U S H ! ! ! |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:18
I don't expect it would make any difference, and I expect there will be those who vote Rush who know all of KD's work, and perhaps a number who know a great deal of Rush's music (such as myself) who still vote KD. It's not about who is better, it's who is preferred. It gives the poll more substance when people post what they know. I like both bands. Such polls can be great for getting people to know more music. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:24
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You are also talking about comparing a band with a 35 year career that has arguably released at least 5 masterpieces (I think more, some think less) versus a band with a 5-year career that has only released 3 albums, of which 1 is not very good. Truthfully, it is really difficult to expect anything less than the above results. That said, as I mentioned above, I am interested in hearing Choirs of the Eye, and I really hope that is as good as some say that it is, and I hope that it is definitely better than Dowsing, which I didn't like at all. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 16:37
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That's very true, Scott, which is one reason why this is hardly an ideal match-up. Leaving taste aside, no one approach is the correct one. If two bands that I love are put up against each-other, and one has a much bigger discography than the other, the first thing I do is compare my most-liked albums by each band (so a one-shot wonder might win against a band with many releases if I think that album equal to the best by another, but I feel the other albums by the band with more albums are not up to the same quality -- consistency). Or I might give them a tie. If one has many albums I feel are great over another that has limited albums that I feel are great, then I might well go with the one with more albums. Then again, I might just feel like voting for the underdog. I'm not always consistent. It doesn't matter, but it's more insightful if people sort of explain where they're coming from. EDIT: Maybe I'm kind of unusual in this regard, but I'm really interested in what people think and feel, how their minds work, and why they feel a certain way. It's part of genuinely being interested in people, and in communication. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 17:34
OK, from what I've just looked up, it appears that Yusaf Lateef's method applies to both bands, but more so KD. motW used it for astral projection and lucid dreaming, claiming to bring back the pre-existing music from the astral plane.Yes, I know that sounds more like an acid trip than anything, but Driver says that Interlude 4 was completely dreamed after he used a weird tunning on his acoustic guitar and strummed it before going to sleep. I've not read how he uses it for Kayo Dot though, but its a technique primarily used in folk music so it should be interesting to find out. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Takeshi Kovacs
Date Posted: October 31 2008 at 19:31
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Rush for me........several very good albums inc Hemispheres, 2112, Caress of Steel etc. Even have time for one of their 80s albums power Windows. Have a couple of Kayo Dot, and I must admit it doesn't get much airplay, as I find it a bit tough (challenging?) to get into.
-------------  Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/ |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 05:25
None of these people (if they actually exist) have written anything in this thread, so what's the problem? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |