Led Zep and Unconscious vs self-conscious prog
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51762
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Topic: Led Zep and Unconscious vs self-conscious prog
Posted By: MercyfulFatesWarning
Subject: Led Zep and Unconscious vs self-conscious prog
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 18:17
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I realize that a band like Led Zeppelin are not 'prog rock' in the traditional sense, but to me Zeppelin hella lot more adventurous than a lot of the bands that we distinctly label as 'prog'. In many ways, LZ achieved their progressiveness in an un-conscious manner, and in so doing created much more artistic works than those bands that wore their progginess/artsiness on their sleeves. Take two Zep albums that got relatively low scores on progarchives review forum: Led Zeppelin III: 3.86
Houses of the Holy: 3.69
Compare that to the cumulative review scores for the 2 Transatlantic albums:
Transatlantic Stolt Morse Portnoy Trewavas: 4.09
Bridge Across Forever: 4.05
When I saw these scores, I'm thinking C'MON NO WAY
 Houses of the Holy is more progressive, artsy and eclectic than the 2 TA albums combined. Funk, reggae, folk, the subtle time changes, the sounds that Jimmy gets from his guitars and OOOHH that mellotron! No Quarter and The Rain Song by themselves make a lot of neo-prog bands sound trite and contrived. Not to mention the wonderfully organic structures that we get with The Ocean, The Song Remains the Same, and Over the Hills and Far Away. Musically, Page/ Plant/ Bonham/ Jones were exploratory and progressive in every way imaginable. Well, I can't complain too much.... at least they're down as "prog-related"
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Replies:
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 18:26
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Moved to the Proto and Prog Related section where it belongs. -------------  |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 18:49
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you make a great observation ..I'm a recovering Zeppoholic, had it bad in my early twenties, more bootlegs than I care to count, collectibles, etc, it was ugly.. but I realized how progressive they really were, especially live and by '75 they had become an even more phenomenal live act than shown in SRtS (filmed '73) often turning in much more progressive shows than their Prog contemporaries did ..an amazing balance between spontaneous, visceral heavy blues/jazz and carefully planned expansions of their songs ..even Floyd and Hendrix rarely matched them for range and risk-taking live, only the Dead did it better I think ..the studio albums, too, show a clear progressive arc in material development and studio sound that always was fresh and pushing past their hard rock tag ...in concert and beyond ! |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 22:33
| That's the funny thing about Zep. Ya get out those studio albums and there's always some stretching out, just a bit beyond what your average blues-rock band should be involved in, much less capable of. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 02:24
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I would bet money that most of the early prog was subconscious prog.
------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 09:22
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People should realize that the rating numbers are for amusement purposes only. The methodology by which they are derived is a secret formula that us mere mortals are not privy to. They are ultimately of some value, but the quality and information in the text of the reviews are what count and can be most useful.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: MercyfulFatesWarning
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 12:47
 Yeah, I understand what you mean about the reviews. It's just that, to my mind, something is a bit skewed in progdom when TA gets a 4.09 and an all-time great like Houses gets a meager 3.69. Anyway, I'll try not to take the review scores too much to heart since after all, it's only a number.
Atavachron, your comment about the progressive arc taken by their studio albums is a good one. Starting from LedZep self-titled, Page builds upon a foundation of blues and folk, and step by step, block by block, album to album he manages to create some huge.... what.... we don't know (Achilles Last Stand? Kashmir?). But that was the beauty of it. By the time of their last albums, the evolution that began with the hellishly visceral Dazed and Confused became clear. Page was obsessed with filtering layers of sound through violin bows, theremin and mellotron sounds, 12 string and double-necked guitars. He used everything at his disposal and he was extremely lucky to have monstrous talents Plant, Bonham, Jones around him in order to help fulfill his vision.
When I look at Zep's 8 studio albums, I'm reminded of Beethoven's symphonies and the path/progression that he took, starting out with a very basic Haydn-esque 1st symphony, but then building upon that like an architect from one work to the next until he ended up with his magnum opus 9th Choral symphony (not that In Through the Out Door qualifies as a magnum opus, but you get my drift).
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 13:04
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what's the best LIVE Zep album to get based on this discussion? something from their later period? Ive been on a hard rock/classic rock/etc... binge updating my collection with great live albums. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 13:06
| Good points about the Zepp, their adventurous artistic path, and the safe grounds in which prog bands sometimes rest. Except for that 3.69 and 3.86 are not at all low ratings. To me a 7 (or three and a half stars) mean "very good" (the scale being 6-good, 7-very good, 8-excellent, 9-exceptional, 10-masterpiece). |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 17:02
if you like the early material - 1973 and before - How the West Was Won is interesting, but I still think Song Remains the Same is king ..as for boots, almost anything from the 1975 tour is brilliant |
darkshade wrote:Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 19:34
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Led Zeppelin will always be the best rock n roll band of all time. They certainly pushed the envelope more than the vast majority of "prog" bands, and if one was to rate albums independent of this site, Zep would be way ahead all but perhaps a few of the classics. But two point here.
I come to this site to find out about a specific subset of modern music. Zeppelin's music is only loosely related to that subset. More importantly, since the purpose of the site, IMO, is to help everyone expand their experience, who honestly hasn't already sampled Zeppelin (and the Beatles for that matter) before they got into anything prog? I bought Indukti because of it's rating on this site. I doubt anyone is going to see a rating on Zeppelin and go out and buy it. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: MercyfulFatesWarning
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 10:58
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Well, I'm trying to make the case that Led Zeppelin are a bit more than just 'loosely related' to the Prog genre. |
And yes I agree that most people here have probably already sampled Zeppelin and The Beatles. The thing for me is that I'd gone on to explore and expand my experiences in the Prog/ Neo-prog genre only to find that a lot of these bands don't come close to the level of 'progginess' that Zeppelin achieved. Not to bash anybody specific, but some of the newer bands that 'consiously' set out to write and compose music that is overtly progressive end up with music that's over-wrought and re-hashed. So for me, it was really just a rediscovery and new appreciation for what Zeppelin did in their time. Posted By: Roj
Date Posted: September 18 2008 at 04:58
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Call me a heathen, in fact you can call me whatever you like, but I prefer the Transatlantic albums to these by Zeppelin. My favourites by Zepp were the debut album and Song Remains the Same.
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: September 18 2008 at 07:21
Until the end of last year, I wouldn't have agreed; I thought 'How The West Was Won' knocked seven shades of good-for-the-roses out of 'Song Remains The Same'. Then Jimmy Page completely remastered SRTT - that album now shows exactly what a formidable force LZ really were on stage. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 16:37
Any bootleg of 1969 should please the harcore fan.
Also the 1977 tour has equally moments that the 1975 tour -------------  |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 16:59
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^ 1969 is fantastic (the few shows from '68 are also marvelous) ..'77 is spectacular though for me their peak was two years earlier |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 19:13
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Helsinki 70 is a very good one along with KB Hallen of the same year ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:40
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yes, and '72 is also really interesting cause they didn't play much, and Plant was still at his vocal peak |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:47
| For me Zep has some Heavy Prog songs, Achilles Last Stand, Stairway to Heaven, No Quarter. I think Rush without Zep, it wouldn't be the Rush everyone knows about. I hear a lot of influences in 2112 and Caress of Steel, why in Farwell to Kings they reached to their very own Prog identity. |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 20:56
Check the bootleg Charlotte 72 for me have the best version of Rock and Roll  ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 21:09
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San Diego '72 for me, a great version of 'Over the Hills' (several months before it was released) ..you get to hear Planty really belt out those highs that he never would again in concert |
Posted By: Alberto Muņoz
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 21:22
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And what about Fillmore West 69? Surely the best version of As Long as I Have You. ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 21:24
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oh the Fillmore shows were magic, possibly their finest early period |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 21:24
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and if you ever see Central Park, NYC 1968, grab it |