Metallica's Death Magnetic Wave Form Analysis
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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51723
Printed Date: November 24 2024 at 19:02
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Topic: Metallica's Death Magnetic Wave Form Analysis
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Subject: Metallica's Death Magnetic Wave Form Analysis
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 03:19
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Something I saw on another forum which really captured my attention.
 The leaked version of Cyanide.... pretty damn compressed.
 The retail version.
Basically a solid bar waveform, meaning about 0dB deviation (if any at all of some sections of what we see in the waveform are anything to go by) in the volume and dynamic range of the audio(err, if someone can explain that more technically than I can, feel free btw
 ).This is another reason I don't want to get this album... it must be one of the loudest (which can clip audio signals more easily, resulting undesirable distortion  ) and most compressed albums ever made------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 03:25
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It's a loud track ... it doesn't have extended silent parts or interludes. I don't think that such a condensed view, where the whole track fits one screen, shows whether it's too compressed. Today I'll buy the album ... I'll post the album gain as soon as I have it in winamp.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 03:35
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^Well I used to use Nero Wave editor.... and I never saw a single song (even some of the most compressed stuff I had like Systematic Chaos... which is pretty damn compresssed) didn't form solid bar wave forms.
If you could take the time too (since I have no intentions of purchasing Death Magnetic), could you perhaps use Audacity (which is what I use instead of Nero Wave Editor, so it will help me to see thing in a perspective I'm more used too), and perhaps, compare the wave forms of some of the most compressed albums you own, and compare them to Death Magnetic? -------------
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 04:12
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Well, I've listened to the album several times now, and wave analysis or not, at last a Metallica album worth getting. Although interesting in a WTF way, it goes to show that thankfully some weird graph can't really influence my enjoyment of stuff I like.
I mean, come on! Is the picture of a wave form really going to be a criterium on which buying an album is based?
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Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 05:14
| The studios have hardware compressor/limiters that allow them to get away with this type of boosting, without distorting - don't try it at home. It may turn out sounding like mud. And to those who said it is not necessary to master, in the mastering thread I put up, that is where this is done. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 05:30
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^I understand the actual recording itself can be compressed to hell
without any actual what we perceive as distortion to the signal. What I meant, was that, a heavily compressed album has the capacity to make the audio signal being sent to your speakers clip much easier than a less compressed album. You can certainly crank an audio player to full volume with a less compressed album and it probably wont do any harm to the speakers... problem with excessively compressed recordings in the case of Death Magnetic, not only will turning up the audio system to full be highly likely to cause the signal to create clipping by the time it hits the speakers, but you can potentially damage your speakers. Of course, someone like me, cobb2, MikeEnRegalia et al understand this and wouldn't go and crank an album with massive compression at full volume, but what about people that don't understand these sort of concepts? It wont be any fun for them having to replace speakers because they turned up the volume to full with a stupidly over compressed album playing. -------------
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Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 07:05
| No, this won't distort- distortion occurs outside the +-3db range- the top and bottom of the graph. This is the job of the limiter- to remove any signals that go outside this range. They are just chopped off- removed entirely. Without the limiter this wave file would distort to hell. So, the compressor boosts the signal and the limiter removes anything outside the range of (most) playback units- louder music with no distortion. But as I said earlier this can only be done at this level with very expensive hardware gear, not software. The true meaning of DAW- a software workstation interacting with hardware effects. To get an idea think of the guitar and the effects pedal. The pedal is hardware and can do a much better job of controlling the signal that it is designed for, than say the software filters in a Pro Music Suite package. Even though they might be doing exactly the same thing, your guitar distortion (or whatever) is gonna sound better using a pedal, not a software effect filter. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 09:28
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Yeah, that's what I meant though. The actual recording itself, isn't distorting. Death Magnetic may be very well be distortion free (an unclipped signal).. I don't imagine they would be putting a distorted sounding album on the market. An inherent feature of audio systems, is that the electronics themselves can produce distortion (a concept you may understand more than me, and something I'm sure some people on PA understand a lot more than me) and the speakers themselves, as I stated earlier.can be pushed into distortion. The more expensive high end units are obviously less prone to doing so, in terms of the electronics side of things, and generally louder wattage power amps deliver more headroom, allowing for more volume before distortion/clipping (with speakers to match of course). I guess that can be a lesson 101, for those not in the know  What I really wanted to put across was that because of the extremely compressed audio of Death Magnetic, speakers and the audio systems themselves which are not free of distortion (unlike the album itself presumably) will be pushed into clipping more quickly because of the extra signal gain. I mean, sure enough if I have my computer speakers at a reasonable volume they wont distort, whether I put on Opeth's Ghost Reveries (an example of a record with a very good dynamic range and as a given, not heavily compressed at all) or listen to Death Magnetic.... put them on full volume and they will, as a result of them just being small speakers with a low power amp. Putting on Death Magnetic will only exacerbate the clipping problems at high volumes in my speakers. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 09:31
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Solid bar wave forms are apparently something joked about...... no one actually expected it would be for real, but I guess the production team behind Death Magnetic weren't aware of that joke and well...... did it for real. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 10:02
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^ I now have the cd ... so far it sounds good. Album Gain is at -13.20, which suggests heavy compression, but I've also seen a few albums which exceeded -14 ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 23:56
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^Thanks for that info Mike -------------
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 03:52
i have ordered the x2 vinyl copy of this album, will be interesting to see how the wave forms pan out on that 
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 04:25
^ how much did it cost? At Amazon.de I only see the €69 special limited whatnot edition, which I am definitely not buying. I'm not going to spend more than €25 for the album.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: inrainbows
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 05:07
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Representatives for Metallica acknowledged the mastering problem "My name is Benjamin. I work in fan support for Mission: Metallica. "I am sorry for the bulk e-mail, but we've heard from quite a few of you regarding the sound quality on the single release of 'The Day That Never Comes'. "The source of the problem, as you might imagine, goes all the way back to the creation of the track from master — but this is not how it will sound on the album." Metallica knew of the problem, had a representative state that it would be fixed, and still allowed it to ship with the problem. I would assume that the problem was identified too late in the manufacturing process of the disc and they let it go. Here you can find a petition,asking for album remastering, which is terribly clipping: http://www.gopetition.co.uk/online/21800.html ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 05:10
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well, yesterday I listened to the album on my mobile player on the way back from work ... I noticed that the bass was distorted even at my normal volume setting (18/25). I'll listen on the computer today (Logitech speakers) and on my hi-fi. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: inrainbows
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 05:23
Believe me, that's the same sh*t.If only I could hear it without annoying myself to the horrible sound. For me, the bad quality really is f**king up my listening experience. Good music and decent recordings make me want to turn up the volume. I caught myself wanting to turn DOWN the volume on as well as my portable as my (quite nice, one might add) home set. Now, an album that makes me want to turn DOWN the volume can't be right. -------------
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: fashionimage
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 05:27
| I Bought the cd and encoded it using itunes 192kbs mp3 it sounds good on my itunes but it sounds absolutely horrible on any of my ipods and iphone it is very distorted on the ipods even at low volume really really bad i can not listen because the clipping is so bad |
Posted By: inrainbows
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 05:44
Agree. Just spread this around : http://www.gopetition.co.uk/online/21800.html We got Metallica to release the Live Sh*t box set on DVD last year, so you never know. -------------
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 08:21
it is advertised on USA Amazon for $14.99, but have since informed me of a delay....are they pulling my thingy..?
 ------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 13 2008 at 08:23
I hate when the vinyl release is delayed ... 
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: zcoutboy
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 19:22
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I believe they clipped it so much to get a more trashy or garage like sound...... do not personally like the the distortion but still enjoy the songs 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 22:40
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why does everyone who refers to thrash call it trash? or trashy? get it right ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 02:56
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^ I think in this instance he may indeed have meant "trashy" ... as in "lo-fi".
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 05:13
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My official version is much better (not perfect - the chorus clips like crazy);
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Certif1ed/Waveforms/ - http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Certif1ed/Waveforms/ ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 18:24
As for petitions, folks, well ... how many "remastered/remixed" versions have you seen of Rush's Vapour Trails ?  It's an industry wide affliction biased as to how the music will sound on FM radio. Of course, that would be assuming that the album will be getting wide spread airplay. Along side Justin Timberlake, Toby Keith and others on today's main radio programming styles Urban & New Country 
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: magnus
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 14:41
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Seriously, I can't believe how awful this album sounds. The clipping/distortion is just horrible. I first listened to the album after listening to some of Ride the Lightning first, and after listening for a few seconds, it felt like my ears were going to bleed. I can't believe how it's possible for Metallica to make an album sound so terrible. So in conclusion, I think Metallica may just have won the Loudness Wars! ------------- The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie 
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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 18 2008 at 19:50
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A good friend of mine is a sound designer for Sony and has been complaining about this issue for years. He states that the majority of mastering for major record labels results in clipped out dynamics. It all goes to 11. He gets frustrated because it becomes very problematic when trying to incorporate these recordings into his work. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 19 2008 at 09:09
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http://www.nme.com/news/metallica/39816 - http://www.nme.com/news/metallica/39816
http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/09/18/fans-complain-after-death-magnetic-sounds-better-on-guitar-hero-than-cd/ - http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/09/18/fans-complain-after-death-magnetic-sounds-better-on-guitar-hero-than-cd/
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2008 at 10:21
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I certainly agree that there's something wrong ... however, if it's true that the mixes were already too heavily compressed ... how can the GH version sound any better? Well, we can only hope that the album was recorded digitally, so there's a chance that a previous version of the mix exists (which would be one explanation for the GH version sounding better).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 19 2008 at 11:39
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I got sent flacs of the GH version - they're MUCH better.
As the reports say, when you turn the volume up, it just sounds fuller, and you want to keep turning the volume up for more of that sweet sound.
Try the same thing with the CD (or the 320Kbs official download), and it's a completely different story - at a certain level, it "barks" - it just sounds uncomfortable and unmusical. When you get to the quieter bits, the sound artifacts all over the place - it's horrible.
Apparently the vinyl is the worst... guess which format I've got
 (and it only turned up today - I'm not impressed that I ordered it direct from Mission Metallica 2 weeks in advance and got it a whole week late).I hope that seeing reports in NME and Rolling Stone will encourage Metallica to issue a properly mixed version - and recall the trash, but somehow I doubt it.
Pity - most of the album is really good (although I still hate the ballads). "The End of The Line" followed by "That Was Just Your Life" are my faves at the moment. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2008 at 13:48
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^ the way I hear it it's simply distorted. How much you hear it depends on the quality of the speakers and the level ... when I first listened to the album at work I didn't notice anything bad about it, because I was listening at low volume. But on the train, with the Sennheiser in-ear headphones, I immediately heard the distortion. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Ozzloaf
Date Posted: September 19 2008 at 19:57
------------- "> 
- Last FM |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 20 2008 at 10:05
well....i cheated 
my vinyl and CD digipak copies of "DMag" STILL HADN'T TURNED UP, so this morning, during my weekly foray braving the horrors of the high street - where do you think i ended up in my sleepy haze (i was woken up at 3 am by a mini-revolution in my street - motorbikes, swearing, the sound of breaking glass, just an average domestic dispute
 ) ..? HMV
 Metallica was taunting me from the racks, it was only a tenner, so i now find myself the proud owner of the bog-standard CD copy of this long awaited opus (cute booklet) - on listening i am pleasantly surprised this turns out not to be the sonic disaster i had expected from all accounts - ok the eq is rather too forward though not uncomfortably so....hey, guys, this is Metal !!
As for the music - all the Metallica riffs, hooks, palm muted guitars, acoustic bits mixed with driving beats are all back there, good songs (Master meets ...And Justice / Black album), a real head banger, it rocks!!
 good stuff guys!
 One which will become part of my Rega Apollo for some time to come - until the vinyl turns up anyway...
 ------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: September 21 2008 at 07:43
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After listening to it, I can only say- pretty ordinary... Nothing to do with the overall sound- this I would say, was an effort, though a bad one, at getting that original Metallica sound. The songs are just - well- ordinary. But then, the only album I truly liked was black, so who am I to say. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 21 2008 at 08:10
Those kind of articles, are doing the rounds at heaps of other forum boards too. It's pretty sad the GH version sounds far better and they couldn't even do that for the album version. Hopefully that problem is rectified one day. -------------
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 22 2008 at 01:56
i found the CD to be better sound quality than some other newly-released CD's i have, though i think in this case the answer would be for Vertigo to release a DVD-A version of the album - this uses DVD technology so much more information can be stored on one disc, rejecting the need for compression, or why don't they just release two CD'S?  still waiting for the Vinyl copy, will comment on that soon i hope.
------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 22 2008 at 02:27
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They don't need to release a DVD-A version of it. They need to go back to the mix (which was already super hot and clipping before they even mastered it  ) and fix that (at the expense of idiot record label executives probably saying "ZOMG BUT LOUDER IS BETTER!").It's that simple really. -------------
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 22 2008 at 13:01
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Er, and the heap of CDs already sold , who re-imburses the buyer ? I would be very surprised to hear of any re-issue as the originals returned for refund would bankrupt the label. Not morally bankrupt. They are already that. Financially. And again ... what success has the Rush - Vapour Trails remix petition had ? None, not even a peep from the label, or the band. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: September 23 2008 at 01:48
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they should make a multi - track version available so we could do our own mixing and mastering on the PC , i'm sure most fans would do a better job than they seem to...
------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
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