The Zodiac - Cosmic Sounds for PA inclusion ?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51391
Printed Date: April 24 2025 at 16:41
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Zodiac - Cosmic Sounds for PA inclusion ?
Posted By: UMUR
Subject: The Zodiac - Cosmic Sounds for PA inclusion ?
Date Posted: August 29 2008 at 09:44
|
The Zodiac - Cosmic Sounds is a one album project band playing psychadelic rock with lots of progressive tendencies and a lead singer who sounds like Jim Morrison. Itīs a highly recommendable album for fans of that genre. I would like to see them included on PA. Any comments ?
With kind regards
UMUR
|
Replies:
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: August 29 2008 at 10:48
| For me ok, because it is a concept album, with pioneering use of synthesizers (not the first record with moog though), psychedelic elements. As it was one-shot band, there will be no problems including it on proto-prog, mainly considering that there are some psych pop bands with no prog tendencies included there. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: August 31 2008 at 14:26
|
Thanks for you comment Akin
If anyone wants to read about the band visit these pages:
http://www.richieunterberger.com/zodiac.html - http://www.richieunterberger.com/zodiac.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Sounds - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Sounds
For a sample of the music visit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMmxqqWyF8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMmxqqWyF8
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/3526383/a/Cosmic+Sounds.htm - http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/3526383/a/Cosmic+Sounds.htm
UMUR
|
Posted By: anael
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 01:33
|
this band was mentioned a loooooooooooooonnngggg time ago and nothing happened.... ------------- 
|
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 01:51
|
It got my vote for what I heard.
If not in Psyche/Space in Proto Prog.
I need to listen more though.
Iván ------------- 
|
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 12:23
| Admin Team, I formally ask you to consider this band for proto-prog (or VA: Concept albums, if you consider more appropriate). |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 13:43
|
If this is cleared for inclusion just give me notice and Iīll make a bio and add the album. I just need someone to send the bio to.
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: September 19 2008 at 08:56
| Well nothing has happened since the last time I wrote. Can anyone tell me if The Zodiac is being discussed at the moment or if nothing is happening ? |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: September 22 2008 at 09:53
| Probably it isn't. If it was something nonsense and mainstream, like The Police, though... |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: September 22 2008 at 10:27
| Yeah itīs a bit sad that some suggestions donīt get any further than this forum, when there seems to be a general consensus that The Zodiac belong here on PA. I still hope to hear from someone from the psych or the proto-prog teams. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: September 24 2008 at 02:33
I still havenīt heard anything from any team member. Is The Zodiac being considered ? 
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 12 2008 at 11:13
| So is anything happening here ? Is it a matter of determining if this should be in psych, proto-prog or in VA: Concept albums ? Iīm a bit surprised there havenīt been more comments considering that this is a real sixties gem with lots of prog leanings. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 12 2008 at 13:46
|
Have you mentioned it in the Psych team thread yet?
------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 12 2008 at 13:54
|
Well I did send mails to three individual members of the psych team but got very little response, but besides that I was sure this was the place to suggest new bands for addition ?
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 12 2008 at 14:23
|
It is for suggesting bands. If you emailed them, or PMed them, that's much the same as mentioning it in the team thread. It's just that, as I'm sure you're aware, team members don't always check the threads here, so that's why I was wondering if you'd notified them yet -- otherwise I would have posted in their team thread to alert them to the thread. Here's the myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/thezodiaccosmicsounds - http://www.myspace.com/thezodiaccosmicsounds Sounds very good! ------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 12 2008 at 14:28
| Where do I find these team threads ? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 12 2008 at 14:31
|
Collabs can access the following forum --> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=75 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=75 ------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: October 20 2008 at 14:04
| Thanks for the tip Logan |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 21 2008 at 07:21
This is noted now, sorry for being away for awhile! 
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: December 23 2008 at 08:59
| I think psych passed this on to Proto a while back. Has Proto evaluated if The Zodiac is worth an inclusion on PA ? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 23 2008 at 10:02
I'll try to bring this to admin attention for Proto. |
UMUR wrote:Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: December 24 2008 at 05:45
Thanks
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 02:12
Any news ?
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 10:25
|
This psych album would be a really excellent addition, I think. EDIT: I'll mention it to them again, and offer to prepare the addition when it is accepted, unless Umur, you wanted to prepare the bio. I feel that this one really should be in the archives. ------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: March 05 2009 at 06:14
| waiting to know if someone has already considered that album |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 03:13
| Now referred to the admin team for consideration for PP. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: March 06 2009 at 04:49
|
thanks |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: April 09 2009 at 16:24
| I could not agree more with this |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 12:07
|
Rejected for Proto Prog. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 12:19
|
Not to question the rightfulness of your team's decision, but to understand the reasons: If you don't mind my asking, on what grounds was it rejected? Lack of influence/ historical impact, or lack of compelling arguments for the inclusion? Not prog in embryonic form enough? Simply psyche....(not considered a transitional album between the psyche movement and the Prog movement)? A combination of all of the above? I'm still unclear on what's acceptable for Proto-Prog. Anyway, hopefully it will now find its way into Psych Prog where I personally think it would be better highlighted.
------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 12:30
|
Definitely the first - Lack of infuence/historical impact.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 12:33
|
Okay, thanks. That's what I suspected. Incidentally, I was just looking at the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=18539484 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=18539484 and had forgotten that Mort Garson was involved with it -- Mort Garson is an artist I really like and have wanted in PA, but that's another topic. ;)
------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 12:36
|
^ Hmm.... since this isn't actually a band (the album is called "The Zodiac - Cosmic Sounds" with no actual credited band title I wonder if it could not simply be added in VA: Concept Albums (which in reality that is what it is) ------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 13:59
|
^ Interesting thought. That could work.
------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 16:00
Lack of influence or historical impact? How so? It's one of the first ever uses of the Moog synthesizer...but oh wait...thats not very progressive...........................
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 16:13
|
That's regarding its impact on Prog (noun) and that's the sense that I think Dean knows that I was asking about. If even its early use of Moog is of historical importance, and is progressive (adjective), and I think that the album is progressive, and not just because of the Moog, a question develops from what you say about how important was the use of the Moog in that album to the foundations of Progressive Rock. EDIT: I mean it's not like it's one of the earliest uses of the Moog anyway: Herbert Deutsch gave a MOOg concert in 1965 but you wouldn't expect him in. and I believe that the Monkees used it before The Zodiac album. It's not just about pioneering use of instruments, of course. We could have early Theremin recordings etc. I personally don't know how influential this particular album is, but I tend to use my ears to judge which is why I supported it in the archives. Perhaps if Mort Garson were in the archives already this would have been easier. ------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 16:35
No, it used moog before Monkees. Paul Beaver, who played moog in Zodiac, introduced the moog to Monkees and even played in one track. By the way, it is not the first record to feature moog. The first was from Emil Richards, called New Sound Element : Stones, from 66. Beaver played moog in that record as well, and Emil Richards played assorted percussion (hundreds of different instruments) on Zodiac album.
The album was somewhat influential in US, mainly because it was released on Elektra, a large label. It influenced other early uses of moog, like in Monkees and The Byrds, but none of these bands are prog.
|
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 16:37
Iīm not criticizing the decision, but I canīt see more than 10 bands in proto-prog who were really influential to prog or had any historical impact.
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 16:49
I agree with this. I didnīt really think it would fit anywhere better than proto when I initially suggested the album, but Iīve become a bit wiser on the many sub-genres on PA since thn and I could see them both in psych and maybe even better as you suggested Dean in VA: Concept albums.
|
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 17:06
|
I don't know if you guys get into exotic lounge music as much as I do. If you did you would recognize the artists on this record. I like this record (Zodiac) but it isn't prog-rock or proto-prog.
This album has an all-star cast of extremely talented and creative session musicians who were good enough to help out on various exotica records and early synth novelty records when they weren't working on more standard easy listening fare. Many of these musicians also did more serious work, but this record is typical LA styled 60s psuedo psychedelia dressed up to take advantage of a brand new and naive Southern California psuedo-psychedelic culture. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 17:30
then that's no reason or justification for adding another - quite the opposite.
Regardless of the situation in Proto Prog prior to the setting up of the Genre Teams, current policy (and the one that the current Proto Prog team adheres to), is to only add band that meet the following:
"The common elements in all these bands is that they developed one or more elements of Prog, and even when not completely defined as part of the genre, they are without any doubt, an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock." ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 17:56
You'll have to excuse me for qouting myself, but I know a lot of people don't bother looking at the previous page. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 18:01
Beaver & Krause anyone?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_&_Krause - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_&_Krause |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 18:08
| If you want some real voyueristic fun, check out what Paul Beaver thinks of George Harrison. Paul rained on many a George eulogy in the papers in the SF bay area. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 18:16
|
Paul Beaver...began plugging a bewildering array of patch cords
into the equally bewildering panels of each module. He'd hit the
keyboard and outer space, bizarre, Karlheinz Stockhausen-like sounds
would emerge...Who knew what he was doing? And then he turned to us,
all huddled in the control room, and said, "If you hear anything you
want to use, just stop me."
"Well yes", Paul (Rothchild, the producer) said. "Actually that sound you had about three sounds back was very usable. Could you go back to that?" "Which sound was that?" said Paul Beaver. "That crystalline sound," Jim (Morrison) jumped in. "I liked the sound of broken glass falling from the void into creation". "Which sound was that?" said Paul Beaver. "A couple back from where you are now," Rothchild said. "It reminded me of the Kabbalah", said Jim. "Kether, the I AM, creating duality out of the one. All crystalline...and pure. You know, that sound." "Did I make a sound like that?" "Sure", said Jim. "A couple back." "Just go back where you were", said Rothchild. And Paul Beaver began to unplug and replug patch cords, and twist little knobs, and strike the keyboard, which emitted strange and arcane and utterly unearthly tones that sounded nothing like the Kabbalah or Kether; the crown of the Sefiroth. None of the sounds he was creating sounded pure and crystalline. And then we realized...he couldn't get back. Finally, with Paul Beaver ripping and tearing at his cords and twisting knobs at an increasingly furious pace, sweat dripping from his forehead, ungodly shrieks emanating from his keyboard, Rothchild shouted out, "Stop! Wait a second. Just stop there." The possibilities were endless. The permutations were infinite. And the Beaver seemed as if he was going to try them all, as we watched, going slowly insane. "Just stop, Paul. That's a good sound there. I think we can use that." A great sigh of relief emitted from the Doors' group mind. Extract from "Light My Fire: My Life with the Doors" by Ray Manzarek. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 18 2009 at 18:23
| Well there's an interesting coincidence, cos the kitschy 'poet' on Zodiac sounds like a cross between Jim Morrison and Rod McKuen, it doesn't get more SoCal than that. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 01:59
So does it matter that itīs a "fake" project?
Let me take this down to an earthly level. Personally I donīt care who contributed to the recordings or what the history of this album is ( Iīll leave that for my review). I listen with my ears without prejudice ( when I evaluate artists) and then judge. And I hear lots of progressive/ psych elements on this album. Maybe they are not suited for proto-prog as the admin team decided but I really do believe they should be represented on PA. Fake session group or not. Iīm really happy that Uwe decided to re-evaluate. If they donīt get in they donīt get in. I wonīt be happy about the decision but then thatīs it. But I would like it tried in both psych and VA: Concept albums before I rest my case. I hope thatīs acceptable
 . |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 10:38
If it is so, it has nothing to do with influence or historical impact. This definition says that the band shares some elements with prog and, because of that, though not considered prog, they were added because their existence is considered an important stage of development of prog. I canīt read anywhere that the band must have historical impact or be influential to other bands, just that the collective existence of them was important to the evolution of the prog genre.
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 11:16
It does not come any clearer than:
"...they are without any doubt, an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock"
Simply having some of the component parts or being around at the same time is just not enough, they have to so some linearity and continuity to the Progressive Rock movement to be part of the development, and this album cannot demonstrate that.
Similarly the use of the Moog is not enough - many albums around that time can claim to be one of the earliest uses of Electronic Synthesis to create music, but use of a particular instrument is not in itself germane to the development of Progressive Rock. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 11:56
|
Sorry Akin, but this record has nothing to do with prog-rock in any form.
Do you realize how many early synth exotica records we would have to add if this one gets in. When it comes to early synth exotica, far more of an influence on prog-rock would be Dick Hyman's 'Moog' which contains 'Minataur', one of the first synth songs to be played on commercial radio. Dick Hyman's use of the synth was a big influence on Keith Emerson who quotes from The Minataur during his synth break on ELP live. Before I added this kitschy record I would add Hyman, Les Baxter, Martin Denny and Tartaglia first for being far more truly progressive and more of an influence on the development of prog-rock. |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 16:09
| I still fail to see how this album isn't progressive. Conceptucal, synths, the instrumentation....but whatever |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 17:07
| ^ I never said it wasn't progressive. We are discussing whether or not this album fits the progarchives definition of proto-prog. If it does, then I know quite a few albums that should be added way ahead of this one, read the above posts for more related info. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 21:58
|
Well, I never stated that they deserved to be added because of early use of moog, because synth exotica means nothing to prog. In fact, synthesizers became a staple for prog bands, but they were late in adopting the synths, except the mellotron and, arguably, the Hammond Organ, which can be considered a synthesizer. After the impact of Theremin in Beach Boys "Good Vibrations" and the presentation of Moog Synthesizer during the Monterey Pop Festival, many bands adopted the synthesizers, but the forerunners where bands not related to prog, like Byrds, Monkees and even Beatles and Stones. If it was to choose one album representative of the synth exotica / electronic / advanced production, it should be Joe Meekīs I Hear a New World. This was the big deal about electronics, synths, production.
In fact, Zodiac is more interesting for being a full concept album, blends poetry and narration with music, uses advanced instrumentation and the music has some touches of classical and jazz.
The problem with it all may lie on the Proto Prog category, but if it is so, it is the biggest blunder of PA. Under the guidelines you use to deny Zodiac addition, more than half of the bands listed under Proto Prog should have been denied as well. I understand that most of those bands were added before the new policies, but they make the category completely misleading and a change is needed. Of course there are other "wrong" additions that cannot be removed because of the policies of the site, but usually they are the minority. With Proto Prog, it seems to be exactly the opposite. If influence is so important, no band should be added to the category anymore, because it should be either widely recognized and, consequently already added or they are not important.
How can someone explain how Jefferson Airplane was prog and influential and Grateful Dead not, if Grateful Dead was a huge influence even to Jefferson Airplane? How can one justify Tomorrow, Quiet World, Touch, Giles, Giles & Fripp, Sweet**ter, Andromeda etc and not the hundreds of obscure psych/art pop bands, once Tomorrow, Quiet World, Touch, GG&F, Sweet**ter, Andromeda are all more obscure than hundreds of psych/ art pop bands (and none of them have "more elements" than the others, otherwise they would be placed in full prog genres)?
So my concern is with proto prog. Forget about Zodiac. Proto Prog is useless and misleading to anyone who wants to learn more about the origins of prog rock, this is the whole problem.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 19 2009 at 22:26
|
^ I disagree -- when I began rediscovering Prog, the 'proto-prog' thing seemed quite right and shined a little light on history, how prog had not spontaneously mutated (except on a few key albums, some considered protoprog), and that in fact the whole notion of certain prototypes for what came later might be of some interest to a fan.. it certainly was for me. Protoprog doesn't exist as a sovereign genre, it is an idea, a way to connect the musical, historical and cultural dots and to determine how those things began vining outward in multiple directions. In fact real proto-progressive rock music is a far larger arena, as evidenced in this thread-- i.e. the Beach Boys would be an excellent addition, in fact IMO they are criminally under-acknowledged for their contributions to the Art Rock scenes. As for Jefferson Airplane, there is little doubt as to the influence their sound, textures, artistry, and compositions had on popular music at the time. It was huge, bigger than it seems now, but if you watch some of the old footage of them in concert round about '66/'67, you see how new that was and how attractive and large sound they'd achieved. The Dead were also progressive and I wouldn't mind seeing them here either. Part of the issue is that it was such a creative period it's challenging to separate the early art rock from simply inventive pop music - in fact some protoprog was exactly that, which is why it can't be seen as a genre but rather music of that era most important to prog. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 03:48
|
Hi Akin, I agree that there are some flaws in the proto section, that's why I've volunteered to help out and make sure that more bands that don't belong don't get added. Sorry, but I don't have the authority to remove any bands, otherwise I would go through and check the validity of every band in there.
it isn't up to you or I to decide these things though, it's a team effort, and the results of a team effort are never totally satisfying to all team members. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 12:12
I actually thought that we didnīt discuss their place in Proto-prog anymore as theyīve been clearly rejected. But as they were not rejected in Psych but only moved to Proto-prog thereīs still a chance there. So if we should keep discussing the subject letīs talk about their possible inclusion in Psych or VA: Concept albums. Letīs leave the proto-thing alone in this thread and take that discussion in Akinīs thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58666 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58666
|
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 12:30
Hi Umur, I fear we can't add this artist to Psych Prog genre, as it is from the year 1967.. (pre-1969 bands to proto)
It's a good album, but if it doesn't find a place here, don't be sad Umur!
From the solutions above, I would suggest focusing to swapping & disgesting ideas concerning Various Arist choice, if there are argument agains proto inclusion.
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 14:11
|
Ok then. Any suggestions as to who I should contact to get The Zodiac evaluated for VA: Concept albums? |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 14:23
The Zodiac... is a collection of pieces by moog/mellotron composer Mort Garson who, IMO, would fit better in electronic rather than proto or psych ...It seems to me that the best chance The Zodiac... has of making it into the archives is by riding in on the coattails of Garson 
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 15:26
Me. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 15:48
| ^ wait a second, it's the same guy but with a diffrent hat and a fake mustache. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 20 2009 at 16:23
No it's not. ------------- What? |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 02:08
| Ok then. I consider that case lost. Iīm not gonna use one second more of my time on this. |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 07:34
 ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 08:31
| If someone wants to do the addition, The Zodiac has been approved for VA. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 09:53
|
Well I guess that makes me look like a total fool. Iīll gladly do the bio and the album addition too if no one else has signed up yet.
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 10:02
------------- What? |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 10:09
| So no help is needed for the album addition ( cover, name of musicians...etc)? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 10:10
|
^ You can do all that yourself I believe ------------- What? |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 10:41
|
Oh I get it now. Just havenīt visited that genre before. But I see how it works now. Thanks for the guidence. Iīll add the album shortly provided no one beats me to it. |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 11:15
| http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24273 - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24273 |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 21 2009 at 11:17
^  nice.
You'd better be quick with your review ------------- What? |