John Coltrane to be added to PA
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50964
Printed Date: February 11 2025 at 01:13
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: John Coltrane to be added to PA
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Subject: John Coltrane to be added to PA
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 20:23
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Now that Miles Davis are add to PA i think that John Coltrane deserves to be added for the following reasons:
1. He´s a really big influence in full prog groups like Magma, Soft Machine, All the jazz fusion scene.
2. His playing for jazz have progressive elements like OM and A Love Supreme.
3. Coltrane’s fiercely adventurous harmonic imagination is the most absorbing aspect of his developing style.
4. What makes Coltrane one the the most interesting jazz players is that he’s not apt to ever stop looking for ways to perfect what he’s already developed and also to go beyond what he knows he can do. He is thoroughly involved with plunging sa far into himself and the expressibe possibilities of his saxophone as he can.
5. Progressive Jazz?? as Progressive Metal exist. this subgenre deserve more attention.
And last if Iron Maiden found his way to PA, why don't Coltrane.
If Metallica Does someday to PA, Coltrane deserves more than he have to be in PA -------------  |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 21:13
the idea is an interesting one.. and nice to see jazz and jazz-orientated groups get some air time here with the discussions, evaluations, and additions. however not on board with this.... not now at least. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
zafreth wrote:
apples and oranges... and nothing in common. Iron Maiden made progressive rock.. Coltrane was dead before it ever got off the ground. Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 21:38
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He would really only be viable as having had an influence on Prog artists [Proto Prog], but would stick out like a sore thumb as he made no direct contributions to Progressive rock. I'm a huge Trane fan but Miles Davis being added is actually a reason not to add Coltrane; Davis is here in JR/F because of his involvement in - and some feel creation of - Fusion, leading to the seminal albums of Tony Williams and Mahavishnu. That's a significant contribution to the JR/F genre. Coltrane, though surely having impact on many important rock musicians, made his mark on modern Jazz and later on avant or progressive Jazz. Jazz is progressive, at least it's suppose to be |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 22:04
| Lol jazzarchives |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 22:09
| Yeah I'm not seeing this. Miles yes. Coltrane no. Not taking anything away from Coltrane -- Blue Train, Giant Steps, Ballads (the best Sunday morning breakfast album I have ever heard), A Love Supreme, and however many others I'm missing -- there's no questioning the genius of these. But I'm not seeing the prog side. Now if he had lived long enough to turn electric... |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 22:44
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Not Coltrane, as wonderful as his music is, I do think its stretching it a little, he did contribute to the avantgarde, but if we have Coltrane, we'd have to add Stockhausen and Varese for their contributions to prog, and thats stretching it. I think Sun Ra is a possible case but not Coltrane, of course if Coltrane lived another decade or two longer he would most likely have gone full blown prog, but sadly he died too early. ------------- |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 22:48
I have to agree with Micky here. Coltrane was influential, but at the moment he would seem quite out of place on ProgArchives. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 22:59
Yeah, I think JazzArchives should take care of this one.
  ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 23:02
Someone should make a JazzArchives.  -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 23:14
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a complete JazzArchives would be a monumental task, makes Prog look like a day at the park, however-- http://www.redhotjazz.com/ - http://www.redhotjazz.com/ ^ and that's just up to 1930 there are others too (PA blows them all away for thoroughness and organization, though) |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 15 2008 at 23:58
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Well i still hoping that one day Coltrane get his deserved place in PA, besides the jazzarchives seems a wonderful idea!!! And to PA Team think of seriously creat a jazz prog team. ------------- |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 07:07
 in my jazz bookmarks... nice site. A treasure trove of info...------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 07:11
well.... since Coltrane ain't happening... and would have been very iffy even if there was a lot of support... someone hit it on the head... he would be woefully out of place on this site... however... as I posted... he doesn't have to be out of place forever... what are your thoughts on Brubeck... and don't bother with the 'if X thenY' .. based on Brubeck's music.. .his influence.. and what you know the flow of music tastes and history.... does he merit a place here? ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 07:47
No to Coltrane and Brubeck. Miles actually made about fifteen jazzfusion-albums, and that's a genre represented in the archives. I might as well suggest Bela Bartok (but I'm not going to) for his huge influence on R.I.O. Jazzartists like: Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Herbie Mann, Wal Maldron, Miroslav Vitous, Eddie Henderson, Bobby Hutcherson, Jan Garbarek, Sun Ra, Donald Byrd, Sonny Sharrock mm... are all more relevant suggestions than those two. I got atleast two-three jazzfusionalbums by all these. Check out Wayne Shorters: Super Nova. Raw, free, electric jazzrock recorded a couple of months before Bitches Brew. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:03
Don't forget (eventually) Louie. (Once John is in, and since Iron Maiden and Giraffes? Giraffes! are in.) 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:34
hahahha.. if you are going to quote me read the whole post..
let's see if for once we can discuss an artist on their merits.. rather than in terms of who is, isn't, could be, or should be included here. Obviously I wouldn't bring him up if I didn't think he belonged and will make a case for it when the time comes... what I'd like to know are your thoughts on the artist.. his music... and confirm your knowledge of music and prog by acknowledging his massive influence on prog. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:43
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A lot of this has already been said, but it won't stop me from repeating it:
MILES DAVIS PLAYED PROGRESSIVE ROCK. Coltrane and Brubeck did not. It's really that simple. Listen to Miles' albums like Agharta, Dark Magus, Pangea, Big Fun or Get Up With It, those are rock/RnB/avant-garde/futuristic African albums, not jazz albums. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:46
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who here has said that Brubeck played 'progressive rock'... not I kind sir... I am talking about an important .. missing link.. in the proto prog category here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:51
I guess it depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of proto-prog. My attention span for these kind of arguments is very short so I'll just let my first post stand on it's own. You can tell it's important because I used all caps for a change, ha ha ha. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:58
.. and I guess I have an iron gut for these kind of things.and yes... proto needs to be be stretched out IMO... TO this point and time... 1959... when popular music.. met complexity and exotic influences and odd meters and reached the general public. The expansion of what was possible in music.. and pushing the boundries of popular music. If that isn't prog in a nutshell what it. There were artist who MADE prog possible.. gave them their divine spark of inspiration to throw out the rules. The Beatles were a step in this with their addition in proto... Brubeck is the next one. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 08:59
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I knew you didn't support Coltrane being added, Micky. I just started my post saying no to both. I can see I wasn't clear, but I did read your post. I know early early on many progbands were probably inspired by Dave Brubeck Quartet's use of complex time signatures, especially the albums Time Out and Time Further Out. But unlike Mile, they/he never released anything remotely close to what I associate with progressive rock, or rock. Eric Dolphy's avantgardejazz-classic Out to Lunch, like Time Out is often mentioned as a huge influence on prog. And its probably true. But none of them (or Bartok) really had a chance to fuse rock and jazz like Miles did a few years later, because that kind of rock hadn't been made yet. Edit: I noticed a couple of posts that sneaked inbetween. Ok I'm fine with including Brubeck and plenty more jazzartists, but then we need to open up for Stockhausen, Bartok, Varese, Orff etc too. And then selected works/recordings, not full discographies would be a really good idea. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:05
What I fine pyramid she is ... you should definitley check out Don Ellis for the odd time meter thing, he's much more rockin than Brubeck, but Brubeck probably came first. Ellis is an obvious influence on Soft Machine, Zappa, Ozric Tentacles and many many more. Probably the first people to combine things and stretch genres were Les Baxter and Sun Ra. Personally I think Les Baxter may be the roots of prog-rock, I think guys like Fred Frith and Robert Wyatt would agree. Let's not forget those 'hippie' bands who 'invented' jazz rock. ...Where is that soapbox. Anyway I have work to do (real work), but I'll be back, you'll play nice now. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:09
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Duke Ellington has been a huge influence on Robert Wyatt, too. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:18
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:23
good suggestions... .obviously... I have thrown my hat in with Brubeck.. because he was the first.. and is the logical beginning point if Proto is to be expanded a bit.. which I think is a wonderful idea. Wouldn't it be nice to have people here discover Sun Ra and Les Baxter. 1959.. that is where Proto should begin... the birth of prog... where the expansion of pop music into art. began.. and it did with Brubeck. Not just the first.. .but he brought it to the masses .. not some obscure record. That album touched all kinds of people.. from Donald Fagen to Emerson. yes someone mentioned Sun Ra earlier.... agree with that completely btw ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:31
I thought those genres atleast to some extent had to be fused with rock, to be prog(rock). Don't get me wrong though. I'd also like this expansion of protoprog idea. But when you say Brubeck, I say fine, just add some of the influential 20th century composers too. Varese and Stockhausen fused classical contemporary and electronic music. In modern times. That should count as equally important, imo. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:39
sure .... in texts written by half-wits who think prog was English.. .symphonic.. based in rock.. and died at the birth of the age of punk. No.. rock was the starting point.. being the predominant music of the day. .and was a rebellion of sort TO it..... but because it is prog it has never had to have beenBASED on rock to BE prog... it shot into a 1000 glorious directions .. .isn't that why we love prog man. as far as Varese and Stockhausen.... again... that is another subject... a different discussion. We are talking the roots of prog here.. 'proto prog'... taking pop music... and rebelling against it.. and making art of it. THAT.. that .. in a nutshell is exactly what prog is.. and is about. Brubeck may not have been 'prog-rock' ... which is why I'm not calling for him to be in ISP/RPI or eclectic.. J-R ...or whatever pigeon-hole we can dream up for him .....but I think it is safe to call him the first to be ... prog. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:43
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Interesting discussion here. I'll throw Jacques Loussier Trio into the mix. As far as I know he was the first to take classical music (Bach) and play it in a jazz mode. Huge influence on Keith Emerson. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:53
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Another suggestion: moog pioneer Walter/Wendy Carlos? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 09:57
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well start a thread on them anyhow.. .hopefully you all see where I am coming from with Brubeck.. sure you all can name a bunch of examples of other artists... but as posted in reference to Coltrane. If proto is to be expanded (and it should to include groups and artists that REALLY did influence.. not just artists.. but what was to become prog) .. it needs to start with Brubeck. I'm out.. Raff just got home and have lots of catching up to do with her..... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 10:17
Rejected for Prog Electronic. -------------
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 10:17
So? Classical - check (great artist, I agree) Jazz - check (highly original) Where's the prog? -------------
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 10:59
Yep. And Charles Mingus on entire Canterbury scene ------------- |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 15:12
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a No for me, in terms of Coltrane being added to the site. Herbie Hancock is more likely to be added. However, i saw this thread coming, and kind of knew most people would be against it. I'm not going to repeat what everyone else has already said as to why he wont make it. Jazz Archives should be an extension of Prog Archives, almost a sibling website. haha. I would help in its creation if anyone want to help take up the task! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 15:18
Dark shade Count me in to support!!
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 15:21
Micky, totally agree with you but... up to John Coltrane!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 15:28
woooo! lets get a team going! btw i think Coltrane would have done jazz-rock had he lived at least 5 more years. THAT would have been some interesting music, considering the direction he was going before he died. Maybe "avant-guard free funk"? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 15:43
personally... I think Coltrane could have a place in one of the non-prog subs . but I think not until after a good long list of those who really did make an impact on all of prog.. not just a particular segment on it. Not to diminish Coltrane in the least.. give another couple of years.. god knows what he might have done.. but the fact is a fact... he didn't. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 15:47
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[
woooo! lets get a team going! [/QUOTE] Well i have three huge and great book of all things jazz and related, maybe i can begin doing some sort of biographies...
i'm willing to do a mirror site called jazz archives.
any other ideas/support.
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 16 2008 at 23:43
woooo! lets get a team going! [/QUOTE] Well i have three huge and great book of all things jazz and related, maybe i can begin doing some sort of biographies...
i'm willing to do a mirror site called jazz archives.
any other ideas/support.
i would like to do this, but i dont know anything about making a website, and my technical knowledge of related things is very limited. we would need someone (like M@x or similar people) to start it up. However, my knowledge of jazz and anything related in vast, and i would not mind spending a good portion of my time on making it a complete site (which would take time, jazz is vast, and even this site is not complete) maybe people like Dick Heath or mr70s or anyone else who'd be interested could help too. We should have a separate thread for this. Which would be the best place to start a new thread? General Discussions?? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: August 17 2008 at 04:16
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Yes yes yes, then let's add Glenn Miller!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 14:08
| It's long been a dream of mine to see Coltrane in, but alas, he doesn't fit the site yet. New categories would mean new opportunities for non-Prog progressive artists/ bands. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:23
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Speaking as a Coltrane novice, what albums of his fit the jazz-rock/fusion category if any? He's an artist I wouldn't mind exploring further.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:37
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As much as I love Coltrane, I don't see where he would fit on a prog rock website. His music may have been progressive jazz, but that means that we'd have to change this site to an all-inclusive progressive music one, and I don't think we should do that. The site is losing it's identity! ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:50
He influenced jazz-rock (and jazz) and I have heard compositions of his that are similar to JRF. Really, he's a progressive jazz artist rather than a progressive jazz-rock artist. An album of his I used to really love was "A Love Supreme." Fantastic album! Some months ago on the radio I listened to a program on him and wish I'd noted the compositions -- there was one in particular that I found stunning that I hadn't known. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:52
so do i ------------- |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:53
As long as we create new categories for non-rock progressive music, then I have no problem with such inclusions. I must admit that I'd like to see this site become much more of a progressive music resource. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:54
His last efforts my friend, check first A Love Supreme he will blow out... ------------- |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 16:56
Yes my friend some of ours want to get Metallica as a progressive rock group!!!
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 17:00
I agree on those too. Very Jazz/Fusion. Hancock's Head Hunters is a must to any Jazz Fusion fan. And Wayne Shorter, my dad plays a lot of them, and I really consider them fusion. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 17:01
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I always found Giant Steps very prog |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 17:04
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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 19:41
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^ It just misses the rock part.
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 18 2008 at 21:16
oh they are! check out my Herbie Hancock thread suggesting him be added to the site ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 12:13
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Died before jazz fusion was sliver in music's eye; influence could stretch back and include (check your prog icons' hero lists) Bach Beethoven and the boys, Robert Johnson, Dylan (both Bob and Thomas), Lewis Carroll, Owsley (LSD maker), Star Trek, Mary Jane, Chet Atkins, and I could go on; died before prog was a rock journalist's tag; no, I won't go on ...
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 19 2008 at 12:32
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Seems to me like Coltrane and Davis define the line that should be drawn between a prog archive artist and simply a great jazz artist. But I profess I need to know Coltrane better.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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