I'm just curious what the best neo-prog bands/albums are.

In no particular order, other than in the order of my preferance

1. Marillion - Script for A Jester's tear / Fugazi
2. Pendragon - The Window Of Life / The Masquerade Overture
3. Arena - Pride / The Visitor
4. IQ - Dark Matter / Subterranea
5. Fish - Vigil In A Wilderness Of Mirrors / Raingods With Zippo's

Other noteworthy bands
Collage, Twelfth Night, Landmarq, pallas, Jadis, and some more.

Arena - Contagion

Lands End - Natural Selection

RPWL - Stock

1) All Pendragon albums

2)Fish - Raingods with zippos

3)IQ - Dark Matter

4) All Pallas Albums

IQ (The Wake,Ever,The Seventh House)

Magenta (Seven)

Marillion (Seasons End)

...and (IF 'Neo prog'):

Flower Kings (Stardust We Are)

Glass Hammer (Shadowlands)

Par Lindh Project (Gothic Impressions,Veni Vidi Vici)

Anglagard (Hybris)

1) Marillion - Script...

2) Marillion - Fugazi

3) Twelfth Night - Fact and Fiction (really, this album is SO underrated!)

4) Marillion - Misplaced Childhood

5) Twelfth Night - Live at the Target

6) Twelfth Night - Live and let Live

7) Marillion - Real to Reel

8) IQ - Tales

9) IQ - The Wake

10) Marillion - Brave

...I'm still rediscovering the other neo-prog bands, but so far, none have made it into my top 3, and none of the albums I've listened to seem to be up there with these - but things change over time

Special consideration to Spock's Beard and the Enid - although I'm not sure that the Enid really fit into the neo-Prog category. They're really in their own league!

Twelfth Night's Fact and Fiction isn't underrated I think, probably less known than they deserve to be.

I only heard of them through this site, and it's definitly a great album

A bit punk-influences, particularly on the vocals and lyrics.

I'm still searching for It Bites, it's listed on the archives as Art rock, but from what i've heard it could easily be described as neo-prog. any comments on that?

In the 80's : MARILLION

Currently : CLEPSYDRA

Neo prog never ended. the neo stands for a new way of making prog songs in the early eighties, and that template is still in full swing in bands like IQ and Pendragon

So called neo-neo-prog doesn't excist, maybe a different kind of neo-prog that's been made in current days could be regarded as neo-neo-prog, but a better name is in place I think

The best of "early" neo-prog in chronological order from 1982 to 1985 :

Twelfth Night - Fact and Fiction
IQ - Tales from the lush attic
Marillion - Script for a jester's tear
Twelfth Night - Live and let Live
Pallas - The Sentinel
Marillion - Fugazi
Marillion - Misplaced Childhood
Pendragon - The Jewel

Anything by

except for "Nomzamo" and "Are You Sitting Comfortably?", which are seriously uneven, although not without their gems, either.

Honestly, Neo Prog' is by far my least favorite prog' sub genre, but still there are some very good releases.

• The Masquerade Overture......Pendragon
• Seven.....Magenta
• Pampered Menial.....Pavlov's Dog

Richard Wrote:

...and (IF 'Neo prog'): Flower Kings (Stardust We Are) Glass Hammer (Shadowlands) Par Lindh Project (Gothic Impressions,Veni Vidi Vici) Anglagard (Hybris)

I don't think any of this albums are Neo Prog, especially Anglagard and Par Lindh Project which are obviously 100 times more compex than any Neo Prog' release.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: I don't think any of this albums are Neo Prog, especially Anglagard and Par Lindh Project which are obviously 100 times more compex than any Neo Prog' release. Iván

If it's 100 times more complex than any Neo-prog release, then it obviously isn't neo-prog

One of the great points about neo-prog is that it realises that "up itself" complexity is unnecessary - something that noodle-hounds don't seem to get. Too many people think that prog should be outrageously complex all the time - although, of course, it's nowhere near as complex or technically advanced as avante-garde jazz or even "classical" (for want of a better word).

Neo-prog rules!

I think Poland has generated some excellent neo-prog bands all through the 90s: ABRAXAS, COLLAGE, QUIDAM. Their albums are among the best in this sub-genre.

Regards.

Pendragon- The Masquerade Overture

Marillion- Misplaced Childhood

Arena- Contagion

Iq- The Wake

............

just downlaoded an exceptionally good album

Neal Morse - One

absolutely superb, every pendragon fan should here this.

Certif1ed wrote: 1) Marillion - Script... 2) Marillion - Fugazi 3) Twelfth Night - Fact and Fiction (really, this album is SO underrated!) 4) Marillion - Misplaced Childhood 5) Twelfth Night - Live at the Target 6) Twelfth Night - Live and let Live 7) Marillion - Real to Reel 8) IQ - Tales 9) IQ - The Wake 10) Marillion - Brave   ...I'm still rediscovering the other neo-prog bands, but so far, none have made it into my top 3, and none of the albums I've listened to seem to be up there with these - but things change over time Special consideration to Spock's Beard and the Enid - although I'm not sure that the Enid really fit into the neo-Prog category. They're really in their own league!

Indeed, things may quite change, especially if you listen to Collage-Moonshine

okay, these days, my top 10:

collage - moonshine (THAT'S THE TOP OF THE TOPS)

marillion clutching at straws

marillion - misplaced

marillion - season's end

pendragon - the jewel

arena - visitor

IQ - Ever

IQ - Subterranea

IQ - Seventh house

violet district - terminal breath

pallas - the sentinel could be in the list, but there are a couples of bad poppish tracks.

Certified wrote:

One of the great points about neo-prog is that it realises that "up itself" complexity is unnecessary

I don't believe so, Neo Prog is born in the late 70's, according to some people with A Trick of the Tale, others believe with Marillion, but I think is that some of this bands went for a more commercial option, for the 80's and others simply were not able to do something as great early symphonic.

In the case of Genesis, it's obvious that after Gabriel left, some of the complexity and quality left with him, so it's normal that ATOTT was softer and more commercial than The Lamb (For example), and Marillion started their career basing their sound in 4 men Genesis.

Certified wrote: 

something that noodle-hounds don't seem to get. Too many people think that prog should be outrageously complex all the time

Not my opinion, I like Symphonic over all sub genres, and it's probably less complex than many others like RIO, Fussion, Avant Garde, etc, but Neo Prog is to soft and commercial for my taste.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Certified wrote:  something that noodle-hounds don't seem to get. Too many people think that prog should be outrageously complex all the time Not my opinion, I like Symphonic over all sub genres, and it's probably less complex than many others like RIO, Fussion, Avant Garde, etc, but Neo Prog is to soft and commercial for my taste. Iván

Too soft? I wouldn't label the guitar parts nor the drumming in the first IQ and Twelfth Night albums soft precisely: for instance, the labors of Andy Latimer as Camel guitarist and Ron Riddle as Happy the Man seem quite soft to me, and they didn't do that neo-prog thing, did they? Arguably, the latter were more accomplished musicians than the former, but soft is a word that shouldn't be so immediately generalized i norder to describe the virtues or flaws of neo-prog. And what about the hard rock touches that played such an important role in Pallas' first recordings, particularly the counterparts between the guitar and synth solos and the solid bass foundation laid by Graeme Murray?

Of course, there are matters of opinion, but there are also undisputed facts. "Relayer" is a very jazzy Yes album, "The Lamb" displays some of the hashest sound Genesis ever delivered, "Animals" is rockier than "Wish You Were Here", and guitarist Mike Holmes really rocked hardly and rawly in the first IQ recordings. Let's go for the keyboards for a little while, too. IQ's keyboardist Martin Orford used mean mellotron and Logan String ambiences that were either somber or sinister, creating a basis for the emotional darkness that Peter Nicholls' voice and lyrics alluded to. So... where's the softness? 

   Regards.

Cesar, you're right, soft is not the word I tried to use, I was thinking something  more like light prog', derivative, too oriented towards commercial and lack of bright compared to symphonic prog' (In most of the cases).

Still I have troubles thinking in Spanish and trying to find the right word in English.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Cesar, you're right, soft is not the word I tried to use, I was thinking something  more like light prog', derivative, too oriented towards commercial and lack of bright compared to symphonic prog' (In most of the cases).

how can you qualify commercial, for instance, IQ subterranea, ever and seveth house ? very few people who like commercial music will like those albums, because they are too complex and refined: they rather demand a certain emotional intelligence, and this is what is not given to everybody. IMO collage-moonshine is almost as complex as genesis, it is just that they do not play as fast. The complexity of neo prog is to make catchy tracks which will bring you emotions, and that's very challenging.

I find these albums are excellent:

- SHAKARY (Alya / The Last Summer)

- DARIUS (Voice from the Crowd)

- TRIANGLE (Square The Circle) - it's really GREAAATTTT !!!!!

Cheers,

Gatot

Greenback wrote:

how can you qualify commercial, for instance, IQ subterranea, ever and seveth house ? very few people who like commercial music will like those albums, because they are too complex and refined: they rather demand a certain emotional intelligence, and this is what is not given to everybody. IMO collage-moonshine is almost as complex as genesis, it is just that they do not play as fast. The complexity of neo prog is to make catchy tracks which will bring you emotions, and that's very challenging.

Please Greenback, don't talk about the exceptions (to which I refer in my post when saying "In most of the cases", talk about the general rule.

Neo Prog is a genre born in the late 70's, it's main characteristic are being derivative from symphonic (especially Genesis), simpler than the bands from early 70's and much more commercially oriented than early progressive.

People was tired of the so called pretentious prog' and this new bands tried to capture more audience with a simpler style, just read this definitions:

GEPR Neo-Progressive http://www.gepr.net/gepr_styles.html#symphonic - Symphonic rock done in a typically more simple or commercial format. Also very lush but lacking the complexity of the upper bands. Bands http://www.gepr.net/ma.html#MARILLIon - Marillion , http://www.gepr.net/i.html#IQ - IQ , http://www.gepr.net/pa.html#PENDRAGon - Pendragon , http://www.gepr.net/ar.html#ARAGon - Aragon , etc.

Progressive Rock Enciclopedia The early 1980s saw something of a revival of the genre, led by artists such as Marillion, Saga, and Kate Bush. Groups that arose during this time are sometimes termed neo-progressive. Around the same time, some progressive rock stalwarts changed musical direction, simplifying their music and including more obviously electronic elements.

Mike McLatchey for Gnosis and GEPR 11. Neo-Progressive/"Neo-Prog" : While the face value of this definition means "new progressive," its definitions have multiplied and evolved over the years. It is likely the term's original meaning referred to a contemporary artist who performed music in the 70s symphonic vein with an eye to modern stylings, technology, and production. It has also been used as being synonymous with the early 80s English symphonic rock revival. Nowadays, the term "neo-progressive" is often used to indicate an artist's accessibility, mainstream leanings and relative popularity. Unfortunately the term is also used widely as a synonym for pop-progressive or, worse, bad symphonic rock, despite its departure from the original meaning. This term is an excellent example of how widely meaning can vary.

And of course:

ProgArchives Neo-Prog bands are generally influenced by early Genesis, Camel, and to a lesser extent, Van der Graf Generator and Pink Floyd. The music holds a much more lush sound than general rock, but lacks the sophistication of truly symphonic progressive bands like Yes or amel. Instrumentally, the bands tend to be characterized by a "noodling" approach that focuses on dynamic solos, and at its best, neo-prog lyrics are deep, insightful, and acerbic. Whether neo-prog is diluted progressive or adventurous pop depends on the point of view of the listener — most progressive rock listeners are likely to find the genre dull and unchallenging, while fans of AOR will find the mix more interesting than most rock bands. Although all of the major bands are still producing albums, the classic era of neo-prog effectively ended when vocalist Fish left Marillion in 1987.

If you check, all the definitions are oriented towards a more simple and commercial form of Prog, so it's not me, it's the general definition of Neo Progressive.

Iván

richardh wrote: I tend to think that Neo prog bands concentrate more on the song writing side and are more melodic (which I like) while symphonic prog is more complex and instrumental in style (which I like also).''IQ OR Anglagard?'' is the same as ''Apples or Oranges?''

Of course, even Neo-prog has its instrumental, complex and even symphonic moments, and should not be dismissively swept into a simple sub-genre category.

There are many things about neo-prog which are actually superior to the old prog bands - it really is apples and oranges that are being compared, not superior and inferior generally.

The whole "commercial" aspect is ridiculous. Every band wants to sell records, and even the old prog bands (Genesis, Yes, ELP et al) released singles and wanted chart success. Every band also incorporates sounds of the time - unavoidably. The old school prog bands all have moments of sounding extremely "1970s" just as much as the early neo-prog bands sounded "1980s". There were so many bands at that time producing a sound that was quickly labelled "progressive", that it was more or less a zeitgeist.

Marillion's "Script for a Jester's Tear" (for example) is just as good, for what it is, as ANYTHING from the early 1970s - if not slightly better, as it suffers from none of the inconsistencies that the early 1970s albums all seem to have. To think that this album is not as "complex" is a gross misunderstanding of music, and to suggest that it is somehow "light" is incomprehensible to me.

It is stupid to consider neo-prog as a genre to be something less than "symphonic" prog - I could take the same snobbish line and state as fact that so-called "symphonic prog" is grossly inferior to a proper symphony by a classical composer - the fact that an entire band of rock musicians couldn't come up with something as complex as individual guys wrote 200 years ago says something, no?

Anyway, this thread is about the best neo-prog - not what is wrong with the genre.

Certif1ed,

Wanted to say something similar, couldn't come up with the right lines. Your post covers most of it

It is stupid to consider neo-prog as a genre to be something less than "symphonic" prog - I could take the same snobbish line and state as fact that so-called "symphonic prog" is grossly inferior to a proper symphony by a classical composer - the fact that an entire band of rock musicians couldn't come up with something as complex as individual guys wrote 200 years ago says something, no?

Never said it was inferior, all I said is that I don't like most of Neo Progressive, I find most of it too simple and derivative, it's just a question of particular and personal taste.

I'm sure there are lots of people that like Neo more than symphonic prog, but as a general rule, the genre is simpler and more commercial oriented, creating a new style more accessible to massive audiences (Again there are some exceptions).

Iván

But I remain confused - didn't Genesis, Yes, ELP and Pink Floyd all play to massive audiences? Didn't they sell loads of albums? I guess that makes them commercial too!

After the fall of the big bands, MOST the Progressive bands fom the 80's tried a new approach to the genre, including shorter songs format that could easily fit a radio program, the lyrics changed dramatically from Mythologycal, histroric or Political towards romanticism, it was easier to find a couple or more love songs in the prog' albums, the conceptrual releases were less frequent each time, as in the case of the lenght to fit easier in the radio.

It was most common to find hit singles in almost every prog' record from the 80's, this is what I call commercial approach.

In the 70's, with 4 - 5 songs (sometimes less) per 45 minutes LP, no popular radio was very pleased to play prog' songs, in the 80's (The golden age of Neo Prog), this was very frequent.

That's what I mean by a more commercial approach. The 709's bands soldd albums despite they created a genre that for any normal musician would be anti commercial, in the 80's bands worried more for how would the album sell. Andthat's not bad, simply different.

About being derivative, from the lot of Neo Prog bandss (Most not even remembered today) more than 50 or 60% tried to sound like Genesis mainly, this why I believe it's mostly  a derivative genre.

Iván

Pendragon: Not Of This World, Masquerade Overture, Window Of Life,

Collage: Moonshine.

Satellite: A Street Between Sunrise And Sunset

Marillion: Clutching At Straws, Script For A Jester's Tear

IQ: The Seventh House

Pallas: The Sentinel

chessman wrote: Pendragon: Not Of This World, Masquerade Overture, Window Of Life, Collage: Moonshine. Satellite: A Street Between Sunrise And Sunset Marillion: Clutching At Straws, Script For A Jester's Tear IQ: The Seventh House Pallas: The Sentinel

good call

Forgotten Son wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: In the 70's, with 4 - 5 songs (sometimes less) per 45 minutes LP, no popular radio was very pleased to play prog' songs, in the 80's (The golden age of Neo Prog), this was very frequent. Erm....... IQs Dark Matter has only six tracks only one of them lasting 24 minutes and there is another 20 minute song on their double album Subterranea !!! Script has only 6 tracks and the same goes for Fugazi and the majority of Pendragon's material is made of 10+ pieces. To me this doesn't sound like a band obsessed with selling their records and obtaining radio airplay, but rather bands making the music that they want.

Please Forgotten Son, I will say again: I talk about general rules, there always will be exceptions, but as a general rule Neo Prog' uses a shorter time format, listen most of Marillion, Arena, 3 men Genesis (ATTW3  and Duke are Neo Prog) even some people consider ATOTT Neo Prog and it's full of shorter songs, add ASIA (Now considered Art Rock but born as Neo Prog), Pendragon (Which I like very much), Big Generator and 90125, etc.

There's a good example, Magenta released a double Symphonic debut with Revolutions, 4 epics (20+ minutes) and three shorter tracks (One of them 7 minutes long), but then released a Neo Prog album as SEVEN a single with 7 shorter songs.

I don't say it's bad, it's their choice, the fact I don't like most Neo is only circumstantial, it's my taste.

When somebody talks about a genre he must use general rules but if he talks about a determined  band or an album it's necessary to cover all aspects and exceptions.

Iván 

Ivan - The fans of bands like Gospeed and the more avant garde proggy bands can be dismissive of the neo-prog - especially IQ !

This is because IQ tend to have pleasant melodies and nice vocal melodies, and try to avoid dischordant janglingness - Sometimes I wish that IQ would go a bit OTT and produce a 78 Min CD with perhaps just 3 tracks - two of which could be 18 minute instrumentals - I'd like that - I think that Orford has not cut-loose like Wakeman and Emerson and he should do so.....

But IQ have produced some of the finest - Melodic prog over the past 20 years.....FACT

Neo progressive...

MARILLION: Misplaced childhood, Script, Seasons end

PENDRAGON: The masquerade overture, The window of live

IQ: The wake, Tales from the lush attic, Dark matter, Subterranea

CLEPSYDRA: More grains of sand, Hologram

COLLAGE: Moonshine

SATELLITE (They come from collage): A street between sunrise and sunset, Evening games

GREY LADY DOWN: The crime

JADIS: Across the water, More than meets the eye, Fanatic

FORGOTTEN SUNS: Snooze

ARENA: The cry, The visitor, Contagion, Immortal?

CAST: Four aces, Endless signs

I hope it can help you. I think it´s a good selection, (for me it is!) but all the people answer you says similar groups or albums. It must say something

Hologram wrote: CLEPSYDRA: More grains of sand, Hologram

At last someone who likes CLEPSYDRA. But you should have cited their other albums too, as they are all great. I still think this is the best neo-prog band since the fall of the jester in the late 80's. Their vocalist is simply amazing.

LUCAS

Of course, for me CLEPSYDRA is one of the greatest groups of neo-prog, and I´m lucky because I coud go to a concert years ago, here in Barcelona. Absolutely wonderful!!I just cited two albums: "Hologram" and "More grains of sand",but you know, they have too "Fears" and "Alone". If someone have never heard Clepsydra, I recomend to hear Hologram and More grains, but if you like it, then you must to know they have four albums.

The same with Arena, I have 11 albums, but I just cited four.

Just another thing, the voice of Clepsydra is really great, Aluisio Maggini

gdub411 wrote: What can I say...i'm addicted to these guys!!

These guys are addictive, been listening to other genres lately, haven't listened enough Arena, I will catch-up soon, cos just looking at the covers make me drool

Hologram wrote: LUCAS Of course, for me CLEPSYDRA is one of the greatest groups of neo-prog, and I´m lucky because I coud go to a concert years ago, here in Barcelona. Absolutely wonderful!!I just cited two albums: "Hologram" and "More grains of sand",but you know, they have too "Fears" and "Alone". If someone have never heard Clepsydra, I recomend to hear Hologram and More grains, but if you like it, then you must to know they have four albums. The same with Arena, I have 11 albums, but I just cited four. Just another thing, the voice of Clepsydra is really great, Aluisio Maggini

hey, count me among the Clepsydra fans too!

tuxon wrote: gdub411 wrote: What can I say...i'm addicted to these guys!! have you listened the first two albums yet, great also/ These guys are addictive, been listening to other genres lately, haven't listened enough Arena, I will catch-up soon, cos just looking at the covers make me drool

I have Songs from The Lion's CAge and while I like it , I do not love it.

gdub411 wrote: tuxon wrote: gdub411 wrote: What can I say...i'm addicted to these guys!! have you listened the first two albums yet, great also/ I have Songs from The Lion's CAge and while I like it , I do not love it.

Then you will like Pride, If you'll love it remains to be seen.

Personally my order of greatness is.

The Visitot, Pride, Contagion, Immortal, Songs From The Lions Cage, Pepper's ghost. But I understand a lot of fan's rate Songs Higher than Pride, so my order is probably not the order of all. Make sure you check Pride out anyway if alone because of the beautifull Siren's.

Terramystic wrote:

It's better to compare neo-prog albums with eachother rather than too much comparing with something else.

Not so sure, for example when Pendragon writes a track like The King of the Castle  which sounds so absolutely derivative from A Trick of the Tail, they are the ones who are asking for a comparison with Genesis?

Please,  Clive Nolan in this track sounds exactly as Tony Banks playing Entangled, this doesn't mean I don't like the track, because as a Genesis fan can't say I hate what sounds almost exactly to my favorite band, but listening their music, you have to compare them with Genesis because they try very hard to sound like ATOTT.

Terramystic wrote:

I think some cheezy or simple stuff can also be a prog masterpiece if it's done well, though it's more rarely appearing because a lot of neo-prog bands pretentiously try too hard to be what they are not (epic symphonic prog) rather than excell in making relatively short cathchy songs with prog elements.

Agree with you except for the cheezy stuff, what's cheezy can't be a masterpiece, now if we talk about simple songs you're absolutely right.

The rest is only personal taste.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Terramystic wrote: It's better to compare neo-prog albums with eachother rather than too much comparing with something else. Not so sure, for example when Pendragon writes a track like The King of the Castle  which sounds so absolutely derivative from A Trick of the Tail, they are the ones who are asking for a comparison with Genesis?

You're still comparing neo prog with the prototype of neoprog (Genesis after Gabriel left). But I get your point - derivativeness can be disturbing sometimes.