So punk killed the prog did it ?
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Topic: So punk killed the prog did it ?
Posted By: Yorkie X
Subject: So punk killed the prog did it ?
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 09:25
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I was thinking about "the times" back in about 78 here in Australia and to be honest with you I don't recall punk ever being that popular ... certainly not respected anyway which leads me to the question or should I say the "Theme" to this latest Yorkie X Poll, Did punk really KILL prog ? or is that something we just tell ourselves to come to terms with progs run seemingly being over or in a state of tempery suspension at that time ? Anyway this is probably I dopey poll but honestly I dont remember punk ever really catching on big time not where I live anyway.  |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 09:34
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it was popular especially among the older kids I remember.. I was still a bit young and listening to what my parents did ... but punk's real impact was where we all saw it and felt it... new wave... you didn't see punk influences in prog.. but you sure did see new wave influences in prog.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 10:16
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I wasn't even born back then but get the impression that "Punk killed Prog" is a myth so influencing that proggers seem to believe it themselves. Many of my favourite prog albums are from the punk-era of late 70s. Genesis was way bigger then than in the early 70s, and still prog. The biggest album of the era is Pink Floyds "The Wall" etc.
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Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 11:04
Well,, I was around back then and living in New York, I can tell you all that Punk did indeed kill prog, at least in my part of the USA. Yes, some decent prog albums came out around that time (The Wall, Duke, Drama), but they were few and far between compared to the glory days of the early 70's. Forget about hearing prog in any local music venue.. it wasn't going to happen. I imagine London was the same way, and probably worse.
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Frasse wrote:Posted By: Your Lame Sister
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 11:21
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Prog was bound to kill itself anyway, punk just helped it. when prog bands started releasing crap like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans' and 'Wind & Wuthering', they were practically sealing their own fate. ------------- "Playing acoustic guitar is like having sex with your clothes on - I mean, you know how to do it, but it's more difficult." - Dave Mustaine |
Posted By: Luke. J
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 11:31
| Prog disappeared as all genres disappear when the popular artists overdo clichés. Punk did not kill prog, it rather displaced it. |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 11:45
| seems like a variation on this same topic pops up about once every 2 weeks here, what's the obsession folks? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 12:08
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In Perú we almost never noticed it.
Before 1978 all the music in radios was in English, in those years Rock in Spanish started with strength, so Punk never had a chance here.
Also the beginnings of Metal with the hard Rock pioneers didn't helped Punk.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 12:39
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idk, i keep hearing more how disco killed prog more than anything. punk was just big in NY, London, and maybe some other big city
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 13:38
I certainly disagree. Maybe those albums sealed there fate of causing Punk bands to think that these bands were getting out of their hands, so that's why Punk it's quite the completely OPPOSITE to Prog. Prog = +..Punk = - No vote. Since I agree with Micky with the New Wave influences to bands such as Genesis and Yes, were taking there Prog writing out and turning into mediocre Pop bands. |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 13:44
| I would not say that punk killed prog but there was a punk faction in Los Angeles. The Germs reunited in 2005 and still record. |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 13:51
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Punk may not have killed prog, but it definitely delivered a knockout punch that prog never really recovered from. That's why to this day, 30 years later, it's still considered sort of dorky to be into prog. ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 14:08
Punk completely changed the music scene in Great Britain, and though it never got as popular in the States, it did spawn the whole New Wave movement which did. Punk spearheaded a simplification of popular rock music that continues to this day. Long songs and tricky rhythms were no longer acceptable. Soloing became sparse. Lyrical subject matter could no longer include hobbits, meditation, anthropomorphized mice (Tull, Genesis, etc), mythology, swords & sorcery and whatever the hell Gentle Giant songs were about. :) Lyrics became personal, dealing with real life (usually love, but sometimes social issues and politics). And let's not forget that punk ended the dubious fashion choices of capes, furry knee-high boots, long hair and tights (I'm referring to Wakeman, Squire, Ian Anderson and others...). As punks would say, you no longer needed a degree from the Royal Academy of Music to be in a rock band. Anybody with a rudimentary sense of music could start a band and end up on the radio or MTV or wherever. Whether you liked punk or not (and I loved it), there's really no arguing that it ushered in a new era of rock, which is still with us today. ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 14:29
But where is disco now. Disco is a dirty dirty word. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 14:59
what does that have to do with the price of potatoes? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 15:07
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Punk was to Prog what Charles Bukowski was to Tolkien, and both can be appreciated for what they offer ..did Punk kill Prog? Not really, but the music press' love affair with Punk certainly didn't help |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 15:10
^ exactly.. what 'killed' prog more than punk was Fripp being Fripp... Yes being Yes.. and Genesis.. hahha.. becoming Genesis.  the 1st wave wasn't going to live forever... and prog as we all know.. never really died... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 15:36
I don't know how much.
Pure Punk, the anarchist movement that wanted to simplify music to the extreme, had a very short life, it fell due to their own contradictions.
It was obvious that with two chords you couldn't do anything that lasted too much, so soon blended with mainstream, Glam, etc to create New Wave, which was nothing but a hibryd
Continues to this days? I don't believe, Punk doesn't exist anymore, Prog Metal ended with that myth that soloing was no longer accepteds, Indie and alternative bands even with their limits are trying to create more complex tempos and some radical changes.
And about that urban myth that Prog is only about hobbitts and mythology, i's absurd, you only need to listen Genesis (Politics, Revolutions, fanatism, history, bothanics, wars, pedophilia, etc) or Yes (Whatever they sing about), ELP (Almost everything, even religion and anti religious feelings), Kansas (Spiritual search)....Please,. only a couple of bands were doing fantasy oriented lyrics, I understand a Punk may say he hates Pink Floyd for their fantastic and not realistic lyrics, because probably never took the time to listen the political protest and everything they involved, but a Proghead repeating this?
Love...That was the principal excuse for lyrics since The Beatles that the punks hated so much, but no Punk ever made intelligent Political lyrics like Pink Floyd or Genesis, only ranting with no sense.
Please peskypepsy, that was a post hippie fashion, it had to die, but Yes or Wakeman or Genesis, played the same music with any clothes, remember that after the Pünks the Disco fashion was even worst, with their wide bell pants, african look and white suits with black shirts.
Fashions come and go, the young generation of the late 70's was not the same one of the late 60's.
As a fact you don't needed to know how to play, it was criminally funny that Punks talked about Prog being pure image while the Pistols recruited a bass player who couldn't play a note just because he had the Punk look (talking about Sid Vicious), and later blended with Blondie, Laura Mars, etc, that were pure glam looks.
I honestly believe Punk is dead and buried,. ony survives in small circles of young kids who play Punk because it's easy, but when they learn, they change to other genres.
Prog is alive and growing, Punk is vanishing completely.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 15:37
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Absolutely it tried and damned nearly succeeded. Punk evolved as an answer to what Yes/Genesis/ELP had become, the idea being that you didn't need talent to play it and it didn't have 20 minute keyboard/guitar solos. When I finished my degree at Cambridge in 1974, there were prog venues everywhere. I went over to do my D. Phil in Canada and when I came back in late 1977, there were almost none. Places I had seen bands like Druid, Caravan, Camel and the like were full of safety pin adorned, spiky haired kids just out of nappies with serious attitude and an uncontrollable desire to spit on you, listening to people with no ability thrashing their instruments and screaming whilst bouncing up and down like piledrivers. It was s**t, I can tell you. A few bands came through and a few bands formed a second wave of prog in the early 80s so prog survived, but it was a damned close run thing. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: dzx
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 15:52
Yes and Genesis evolving in their respective dubious directions OK. Fripp I have an issue with as youre talking about one of the main innovators of prog and how to reinvent and change with the times if not being ahead of the time.
And no Punk didnt kill prog, it just give it a serious nudge to move on. Besides some bands described as Punk such as The Stranglers, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Teardrop Explodes for example had very strong prog leanings. I would even go as far as saying that Killing Joke where virtually 'prog punk' ------------- was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice! |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 18:40
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 18:43
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: RaphaelT
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 18:52
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To some extent prog did survive the impact of punk and its own commercialization (remember Genesis or Owner of A Lonely Heart or Asia) and in 80s almost every great band of the 70s had its well-appreciated come back (Yes, ABWH, Pink Floyd, Genesis) and neoprog was really strong these days (at least Marillion with Fish)... but then it vanished - came the grunge, the hip hop and suddenly all the music from the 70s became 'oldies' - maybe these are the times when the myth of pure punk killing the corrupted prog came into existence? ------------- yet you still have time! |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 19:01
I loved Wind and the Wuthering, it's a great album. Blood on the Rooftops and ...In That Quiet Earth are classic Genesis songs. Tales was pretentious, no doubt about it. Personally i hate it. But it wasn't prog's major downfall. In fact, prog never had a downfall: thanks to bands like Pendragon and Marillion it was kept very much alive. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 19:31
It's funny how we love to talk about how "punk killed prog"... it may have or have not killed its mainstream appeal.... but killed it? What are we then? Necrophiliacs???? ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 20:03
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another thing we forget is that Punk, at least the early British incarnation and American 'proto punk', is almost as old as Prog - it nearly paralleled it, developing right around the time of Prog's musical peak in the early 70s (if not earlier) - so in hindsight it was really just another new, innovative voice in rock that came, succeeded, and went, and wasn't too much different in spirit from the rock 'n roll of bands as the Kinks and even Hamburg-era Beatles. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 19 2008 at 20:06
very true David. Have some clappies.. 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 07:14
------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 08:00
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 11:16
How about one on Dream Theater and Rush killing prog?  I am getting a little deja vu here. I got into prog around the same time punk was in fashion. But even though way too many prog artists came down with commercialitis, there were still many others carrying on making good music and new arrivals as well. I did most certainly lose interest in those that went astray. What's really surprised me was the resurgence of prog in the '90's. Many artists out there which I did not become aware of until this decade. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 14:27
when I see people talk about Punk around here I can only assume they got their insight from some VH1 special, makes me want to stab my eyes out with a pencil, strangely enough I can find literally hundreds of bands on the ProgArchives that come from a Punk/Hardcore lineage (and have gone on to either broaden the scope of Punk, or have moved on to play other musics while still retaining the ethics/politics/aesthetic/DIY-tactics they learned from Punk) can't people just accept the fact that there has been so much cross pollination of genres over the past 30 years it becomes quite silly to talk music in such B/W terms anymore? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 14:43
amen to that... same with what I like to call the Kansas paradox in these situations... to many outside our little prog community Kansas are considered as nothing more than an AOR band. As defenders of the prog faith though.. we love to put those people down as being ignorant of prog.. yet.. we are far too ready to do to the same to other forms of music with insight that simply is as incorrect as those on the outside of prog are about prog. stabbing eyes out with pencils? sh*t.... seen it too many times ... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 14:46
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Two points:
1. If Prog is dead and never returned then we are here praising a defunct, right?
2. If Prog died and later resurrected then we are here as part of a new religion, right?
 Punk was never great in Brazil (we used to be the 3rd market in music sales, after USA and Japan - now I don't know) but punk-influenced pop-biased new-age-styled music was a fad here in the 80s, labeled B-Rock. Since the 90s B-Rock bands have changed and those more talented (IMO) went to work in a spectrum varying from hard-rock to Brazilian music... the others simply vanished. Some bands that started with that "punk" mannerism are now prog and included in the ProgArchives!!!
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Posted By: spookytooth
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 14:48
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Asking whether or not Punk killed Prog is like asking whether or not Grunge killed Hair Metal: the answer is no. People's taste in music changes over time...
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Would you like some Bailey's? |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 14:52
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Anyone else seen SLC Punk? It kinda makes me laugh. Anarchist punks love to form half-baked philosophies that aren't coherent or viable. Sure there are probably punk bands out there whose lyrics don't sound like rantings of a half-retarded high school dropout, but the majority slams the see-saw into the ground, flinging the small group of smart punk bands into the stratosphere.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 15:25
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 15:50
you have a mindset of Punk and its mainstream impact, Im talking in its entirety, you make it seem like Punk started with THe Sex Pistols and for a long time there was nothing........until the Nirvana! How naive can one be? ever hear of Black Flag, the Minutemen, Swell Maps, Pere Ubu, Family Fodder, Axegrinder, Man Is the b*****d, Boredoms, Ruins, Fugazi, Racebannon, Neurosis, Sun City Girls, etc?...all bands IMO that have pushed the boundaries of Punk, yes many of these bands are tight and complex and have songs longer than 3 mins (and still claim to be just a Punk or Hardcore band), but thats just a few examples...so Im not sure what you're talking about and Im kind of making a wasted point if all you're going to argue is Punk = Sex Pistols and nothing more |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 15:58
Honestly af6ter New Age, Post Punk, Glam Punk, Pop Punk, Grunge, Alternative, EMO, I lost the track where punk was going towards, but all of them claim to be the bew Punk movement.
They can claim whatever they want, but they don't follow the ethincs and style of the opioneers and in this case I go back to the 60's Garage bands and MOD movement who are the prececessors of Punk.
They can claim whatever they want, but IMO they have turned into a cliché.
Read the responses, most people outside UK and New York were never really impacted by Punk, not even in the third biggest market like Brazil.
Just take a listen, how many bands sound exactly to the Prog pioneers, and youi'll find hundreds...Then ask yourself how many Punk bands sound exactly like the pioneers...Very few.
BTW: You omited the comments of Punk77.
BTWII: Haven't mentioned the S4ex Pistols in my last post not even once...You're the one bringing them in.
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 16:30
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One of the really interesting things about this issue is how the rise, fall and evolution of punk parallels that of prog. From three-chord garage bands in the early 60's, through Iggy Pop, MC5 and The Who (as much, if not more, proto-punk as proto-prog), there's as much history to punk rock as there is to progressive rock. The term was used by music critics as early as 1970, a full six years before the apogee of the genre (again similar to prog). The genre enjoyed a relatively short golden era, just as prog did - though shorter. Pretty soon its critics claimed it died (just as critics claim prog died), but in reality it became another genre of rock, no longer in the limelight but still very much alive. Hardcore and New Wave evolved from 'classic' punk, the latter tying melodic and mainstream sensibilities to the genre a la neo-prog, and post-punk (my particular favourite) emerged in the early 1980s. Today punk is very much alive through bands as diverse as Green Day (pop-punk), Yellowcard, Good Charlotte - bands many fans from the 'classic' mid-70s period might not call punk, but they are as true to the pioneering late 60s and early 70s sound as the Sex Pistols ever were. The punk community even has arguments like ours - Green Day and even The Ramones supposedly became commercial, 'selling out' for the money (god forbid we ever think the Sex Pistols did anything for money!), in just the same way and with as much passion as many proggers think Genesis sold out in the late 70s. Punk Rock is a vibrant genre that keeps itself alive through the dedication of its fans (including websites similar to this one), and the continual willingness of musicians everywhere to take a sound they love and experiment with it. Punk isn't dead and neither is prog. One didn't kill the other, despite a few paranoid media claims to the contrary. In fact, such musical evolution keeps people in love with popular music (I mean the wider term, not just 'pop'). Without punk and other developments, the world would have lost interest in rock and moved on to something else. Rather than killing prog, punk and the like kept rock alive. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 18:37
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^ nice... very nice...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 19:37
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You could be wrong, you could be right, you could be black. you could be white...
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 19:53
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We're in a progressive rock website in the end. Why don't we take this poll to the "general music discussions"? After all, most people here are just talking about how alive punk is and how dead prog is...
... EDIT: I just read that article in that "respected" punk website that Ivan mentioned... very interesting... Is ironic how every fan of any other genre has a right to be completely close-minded and even insulting of other genres (especially prog), but when it comes to prog fans, at the minor display of intolerance to punk, hip hop (name your genre here) everybody runs in defense of those genres...
Guess that's why we like prog. It's open minded BY NATURE. -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 20:27
you're proving my point for me, from my perspective you keep making the assertion Punk is limited to specific sound and style, which I have shown by the bands listed it isn't,
Neurosis and Fugazi have always claimed to just be a Punk band, I tend to take their word for it more so than some dude on a message board
once again this statement shows you know very little about what you are saying...I understand its not your "scene", but....please  and while there have been more than enough bands to copy the Ramones and the basic Punk Rock sound even to this day, there are so many more that have done something different
probably cause I don't consider his opinions, he's another one of those that only considers Punk when it has commercial viability (In the beginning there was the Sex Pistols!...and nothing for a long time...unitl Nirvana!) I've read that site a long time ago, he's basically the equivalent of an old time Prog Head who thinks there hasn't been any Real Prog since 1974, for those types of fogies I say-get bent! |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 21:06
Well said. There's a certain album recorded in 1967 by a band named Van der Graaf Generator. It's prog but listen to Hammill's vocal style... it's got punk-leanings, even back then. Then you have the likes of Iggy Pop and the Stooges and later on, The MC5. Then comes the proper punk of late 1970s, which only lasted about 2 years... then came post-punk. Many post-punk bands are almost prog (some are here in the database!). Frith and Cutler, old Henry Cowsters, embraced the punk scene. Frith was in Massacre. Not post-punk per sé but they certainly didn't have over zealous guitar chops. They made short tunes. Two other bands that also embraced Punk and New Wave were Camberwell Now and This Heat (and with Charles Hayward on drums). Charles Hayward was linked directly to the Canterbury Scene and where is he now? He's playing with the avant-prog band Clear Frame (with Hugh Hopper and Lol Coxhill). Frith also joined Pere Ubu for a short time as well. Then there was PiL with John Lydon on vocals, they certainly weren't straight-up punk. As someone else also said, you had The Teardrop Explodes as well. Entering the realms of New Wave, you had, in 1977/78, bands such as Television (big pre-cursors to post-punk and new wave) and Joy Division. Both I believe had prog influences (mostly Kraut Rock, I think). Also, The Velvet Underground (arguably proggy) were more than just a punk band (they weren't a punk band) but influenced much of the post-punk. One must not forget the bands on Ralph Records either, such as The Residents and Tuxedomoon (this latter band blend new wave, punk and prog together successfully). So punk didn't kill prog, it just put it on hiatus, until the early 1980s, when post-punk started to blend prog with elements of punk and new wave styles. To go full circle, Peter Hammill and Robert Fripp have guested live with The Stranglers (who got lumped into the punk scene and were much more than that in reality). Fripp also played with David Bowie on Low and Berlin, whilst Adrian Belew played with Bowie and Talking Heads (who are also rather Punk in their sound at times). -------------   
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Posted By: Treasure
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 21:13
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lol punk killing prog
Does anyone here own Robert Fripp's solo album, Exposure?
Listen to that and tell me prog and punk hate each other. ------------- 
http://www.last.fm/user/YertGuy - http://www.last.fm/user/YertGuy |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 22:18
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Please, when you want somebody to reply to your post, QUOTE HIM COMPLETELY AS I'M DOING WITH YOUR POSTS, that's the decent thing to do when you don't want to take phrases out of context, repeat the same quote twice and put words on othe people's mouth
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 22:55
we seem to have 2 different conceptions of reality here, when you think Punk: you assume a disaffected youth banging out simple 2 chord tunes, when I think "Punk" I think so much more in sound/style/diverse song structure, (refer to the list) and ideas all produced with DIY/Underground ethic/ideals
why should I respect that dudes words when he obvious has small view on Punk, he may know and have lived the scene in the late 70s UK, (which has always gotten the most press attention in the mainstream) but he seems to know very little else aside from a few biased opinions bases on his short stint in the scene
once again you have no clue as to what you are talking about, Punk/Hardcore isn't your "thing" I get it, so why don't you take some time and DL some albums from some of the most respected indie labels of the past few years to get some perspective - Dischord, Alternative Tentacles, Touch n Go, Subpop, etc
hmm, I believe in the words of many "recognized" icons in the Punk scene, I just named 2 above Fugazi and Neurosis, I've also been around the block a few times and have pretty much had fanboy ear submerged in Punk for over 3 decades now, but you don't have to believe me... I exist only as "text" on a message board, take what I say to heart or discard is as words of lunatic... |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 23:06
if anything this makes complete sense to me, Punk and Prog aren't dead, nor should they be seen as "enemies", they continue on to this day and so much has come since the inception of both Prog and Punk...the only way any of these 2 musics will ever be completely dead is when there isn't a single fan left alive to enjoy the sounds of either |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 23:23
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 20 2008 at 23:25
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Just trying here to walk(crawl) under the rocks being cast........ Neurosis...PUNK??????????????????????????????????????????
please clarify if it's another Neurosis than the one listed in nthis website and that Ivan mentioned in his post... they have a very, VVVVery weak link with hardcore punk (in their beginnings) but, as of late, they're a very dark and slow and gloomy doom band... to paraphrase somebody, they have left punk behind now that they learned how to play...
 ........ I know many metal bands evolved from punk, and that grunge in a way also drunk from punk's fountains.... but all those genres are so far away from the original thing.... -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 00:45
to be technical, Post-Hardcore is most appropriate, but Ian Mackaye is humbling personality, he never liked to get too convoluted when tagging his music, "Punk" usually worked just fine with ol' Ian, right?...cause I know you've been a fan of Fugazi ever since they started kept up with all their interviews throughout the years, so how many times you seen their movie/doc Instrument? nice finding an oddball interview to attempt make a point. It didn't work though, a lot of Punk bands like Gang of Four, PiL, the Slits and Richard Hell, incorporated funk, reggae and dub as well...but going outside the box completely negates them from being Punk anymore according to you,
so? they started out as a Punk band and musically they have advanced light years from their beginnings, but vision and message remains the same (which is still very much Punk in my eyes), not sure what Steve Von Till is saying nowadays but around the time of "Times of Grace" I remember him claiming to still be just a Punk band, |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 00:58
 they were definitely Hardcore Punk in their beginnings, one of the most active bands in the SoCal Hardcore scene during the late 80s, when you see a band progress throughout the years the changes don't seem that drastic each album was just the next logical step--a progression of their original Punk sound, ...yeah I guess its a far stretch to say that what they are doing nowadays is Punk (at least in the traditional sense) but to me they'll always be that bright eyed restless Punk band that started out with Pain of Mind, |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 01:29
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 01:52
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Iván, Wikipedia says: Grunge (sometimes referred to as the Seattle Sound) is a subgenre of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_rock - alternative rock that emerged during the mid-1980s in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States - American state of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington - Washington , particularly in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle%2C_Washington - Seattle area. Inspired by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk - hardcore punk , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music - heavy metal and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_rock - indie rock , grunge is generally characterized by heavily http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distortion_%28guitar%29 - distorted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_guitar - electric guitars , contrasting song http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_%28music%29 - dynamics , and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics. The grunge aesthetic is stripped-down compared to other forms of rock music, and many grunge musicians were noted for their unkempt appearances and rejection of theatrics. So there's one root for Hardcore Punk for Grunge. Also: Hardcore punk (usually referred to as simply hardcore) is a subgenre of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock - punk rock that originated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America - North America around 1980. The new sound was generally thicker, heavier and faster than earlier punk rock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk#cite_note-0 - [1] The songs are usually short, fast, and loud, covering topics such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics - politics , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_%28philosophy%29 - personal freedom , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence - violence , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_alienation - social alienation , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge - Straight edge , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War - war , and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_subculture - hardcore subculture itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk#cite_note-1 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk#cite_note-2 - [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk#cite_note-3 - [4] Hardcore spawned several fusion genres and subgenres, some of which had mainstream success, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodic_hardcore - melodic hardcore , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalcore - metalcore , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sludge_metal - sludge metal and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrash_metal - thrash metal . Thus linking in many forms of metal. Emo (pronounced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English - /ˈiːmoʊ/ ) is a style of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk - hardcore punk which describes several variations of music with common roots. In the mid-1980s, the term emo described a subgenre of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk - hardcore punk which originated in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Washington%2C_D.C. - Washington, D.C. music scene . In later years, the term emocore, short for "emotional hardcore", was also used to describe the emotional performances of bands in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington%2C_D.C. - Washington, D.C. scene and some of the offshoot regional scenes such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rites_of_Spring - Rites of Spring , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace_%28U.S._band%29 - Embrace , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Last_Wish - One Last Wish , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefeater_%28band%29 - Beefeater , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_Matter_%28band%29 - Gray Matter , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Party - Fire Party , and later, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Icon - Moss Icon . (In more recent years, the term "emotive hardcore" entered the lexicon to describe the period.) Alternative rock
The underground punk rock movement inspired countless bands that either evolved from a punk rock sound or brought its outsider spirit to very different kinds of music. The original punk explosion also had a long-term effect on the music industry, spurring the growth of the independent sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-232 - [233] During the early 1980s, British bands like New Order and The Cure that straddled the lines of post-punk and New Wave developed both new musical styles and a distinctive industrial niche. Though commercially successful over an extended period, they maintained an underground-style, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subculture - subcultural identity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-233 - [234] In the United States, bands such as Minneapolis's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BCsker_D%C3%BC - Hüsker Dü and their protégés http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Replacements - The Replacements bridged the gap between punk rock genres like hardcore and the more expansive sound of what was called " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_rock - college rock " at the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-234 - [235] A 1985 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Stone - Rolling Stone feature on the Minneapolis scene and innovative California hardcore acts such as Black Flag and Minutemen declared, "Primal punk is passé. The best of the American punk rockers have moved on. They have learned how to play their instruments. They have discovered melody, guitar solos and lyrics that are more than shouted political slogans. Some of them have even discovered the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grateful_Dead - Grateful Dead ." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-235 - [236] By the end of the 1980s, these bands, who had largely eclipsed their punk rock forebears in popularity, were classified broadly as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_rock - alternative rock . Alternative rock encompasses a diverse set of styles—including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock - gothic rock and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge_music - grunge , among others—unified by their debt to punk rock and their origins outside of the musical mainstream. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-Erlewine-236 - [237] All those genres are heavily influenced by punk. And finally, a note about current Punk: By 1998, the punk revival had commercially stalled, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-251 - [252] but not for long. Pop punk band http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink-182 - Blink-182 's 1999 release, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enema_of_the_State - Enema of the State , reached the Billboard top ten and sold four million copies in less than a year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-RIAAD-244 - [245] New pop punk bands such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_41 - Sum 41 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Plan - Simple Plan , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcard - Yellowcard , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Charlotte - Good Charlotte achieved major sales in the first decade of the 2000s. In 2004, Green Day's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Idiot - American Idiot went to number one on both the U.S. and UK charts. Jimmy Eat World, which had taken emo in a radio-ready pop punk direction, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock#cite_note-252 - [253] had top-ten albums in 2004 and 2007; in a similar style, Fall Out Boy hit number one with 2007's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_on_High - Infinity on High . The revival was broad-based: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI_%28band%29 - AFI , with roots in hardcore, had great success with 2003's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_the_Sorrow - Sing the Sorrow and topped the U.S. chart with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decemberunderground - Decemberunderground in 2006. Ska punk groups such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reel_Big_Fish - Reel Big Fish and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less_Than_Jake - Less Than Jake continued to attract new fans. Celtic punk, with U.S. bands such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_Molly - Flogging Molly and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropkick_Murphys - Dropkick Murphys merging the sound of Oi! and The Pogues, reached wide audiences. The Australian punk rock tradition was carried on by groups such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenzal_Rhomb - Frenzal Rhomb , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_End - The Living End , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodyjar - Bodyjar . -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 01:53
you're exhausting brotha, each point you make becomes more evident that you have no clue, not sure how many more ways I can point out to you how blocked in your mind is about Punk, and now your saying stuff like Hardcore is not Punk? unless something is lost in translation. It'd be easier if you just say "any Punk band that plays one note outside of the Punk canon, is no longer Punk!" --you would think the idea of a "Subgenre" never crossed your mind, those labels are still contributing great bands/releases to this day not to mention a strong back catalog that keeps them in business, you'll always have new generations of fans getting into Minor Theat and the DKs, (as well as Genesis and Yes) Today, Fugazi isn't doing Reggae, becasue Today Fugazi is no longer around, besides Fugazi never did reggae/dub it was just one of many influences, not what they played...but of course you'd never know that cause I'm certain you never heard a note of their music. You seem to have a hard time understanding the line between "a reggae influence" and actually playing "reggae" ...if you were familiar with the music you're trying to degrade them perhaps you'd understand a bit more, |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 02:10
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1.- James, your own a words say it:
James wrote:
I might admit they are influenced...BUT INFLUENCED DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS AN IDENTITY....AOR was influenced by Prog, but AOR is not Prog, Prog was influenced by Classical Music but it's not Classical Music.
At the end every new artist is influenced by many others of different genres, but saying this is influenced by Punk or Prog or Disco, is not the same as saying this Punk or Prog or Disco.
2.- Mithrandir, I'm not trying to degrade them, never care enough for them except when people try to resurrect urban myths like Punk killed Prog or similar, but in this case I'm pointing something I strongly believe, Punk lost it's roots a long time ago,
You mention two icons, one is doing Reggae and Steve Von Till is doing a psyche soundtrack....Where is the Punk?
Iván
Now it's time to sleep, tomorrow is working day. -------------
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 02:25
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You misunderstood me, Iván. Yes, they're influenced by punk but they also have the mentality of punk. They're just related sub-genres of punk rock. Besides, what is prog-punk (pronk), pop punk. Celtic punk and ska-punk? All four of those genres are punk sub-genres. The bands who play in those styles have the punk ethic and play punk music. It's just not the punk music of 1978, it's grown into something else. Prog has as well. Infact, what is Prog Rock? It's a thousand and one sub genres of some very loose genre called Progressive Rock. Therefore, Prog Rock died before it actually began and in fact, does not exist and never has. Some examples of those four sub-genres of Punk: Pronk - Cardiacs Pop Punk - any number of modern bands... but Blink-182, Green Day, Sum 41 and Good Charlotte Celtic punk - Flogging Molly and Dropkick Murphy's Ska Punk - Reel Big Fish and Less Than Jake Noise Rock is also yet another genre that's influenced by punk and is a sub-genre of punk. This is a huge genre and it's immediate, by listening to such bands, that they have taken Punk in yet another direction. Boredoms, Melt-Banana and Lightning Bolt are obvious bands that come to mind here. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 09:34
James, for me, most of this suposedly sub-genres are only tags made to try to keep Punk alive in any way, I can't believe in such things as Pop Punk and much less Prog Punk, both are IMO only attempts which try to find a connection that is nothing but a remote influence.
Prog exists still pure and by sub-genres, it's a different case, sub-genres of Prog existed since the start, only some of them were coined and some particular ones appeared later, for example, Canterbury and Psyche pre-date Prog, Jethro Tull was a Folk Propg band even before theterm Prof Folk was used, Space Rock was created parallel to Symphonic.
Prog is essetially fusion o styles, Punk WAS not,
The main reason of their existence was to simplify music to the extreme,so if you take the over simplification, the anarchism, the purity of Rock in the most essential aspect, the lack of blending....Then you keep nothing of Punk.
Despite what peope said, I never saw New Age as a real form of Punk, tagging and inventing names is very easy, but the question if they really exist is not answered yet.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 12:19
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might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk" |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:31
Ah Walker! Yes, indeed. As I was there, I saw CLEARLY how the rock press savagely decimated progressive rock (Jethro Dull, The Muddy Blues etc...) because the media beacons such as Rolling Stone, Creem, Trouser Press in the USA and Melody Maker and NME in England , one day decided that it would be politically correct to have alittle revolution and eliminate the "Bourgeois & Elitist" prog acts , labelling them pompous dinasaurs and jumping on the punk bandwagon (Pistols, Clash, Vibrators, etc...) . For some people beyond the large media centers, obviously the CBGB looked like another NY cesspool but had no local impact. Unfortunately, many did get on the wave that led to new wave deeper in thevery late 70s and the 80s. By that time , there is little doubt that prog had faded into a dormant state of mediocrity (some going commercial aka Genesis) and others just faded away. It did happen, it was ugly, I have still some of the clippings from those rambuctuous days . ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:40
See also the League of Gentlemen albums. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 14:33
Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into a hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 15:33
Does this make sense to anyone? ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 15:46
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case:
Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
-------------
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Posted By: dzx
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:30
Exactly  ------------- was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice! |
Posted By: dzx
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:48
So you just sl*g off anyone who disagrees with you ------------- was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice! |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:54
But what point are you trying to make? ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 17:31
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The large record companies stopped signing prog bands about 1974 with a few exceptions. Any style of music or any other form of pop culture needs to have new blood to keep it going. People were still supporting the bands that still were making music. Maybe not to the extent of the peak years 1973-6 but still Yes, Genesis, ELP and Kansas were selling out bigger arenas in the late 70's. UK on the very first tour sold out the Forum (see LA Lakers).
Punk Disco or anything else did not kill prog.
The music started changing.
If bands wanted to stay signed and making money they got simpler. The day of the artist controlling the company was over until today when most non big label artists have complete control over what they do.
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 18:37
In this case that i made a couple of typos, but not as you OBVIOUSLY tried to imply for lack of coherence or arguments.
When a person makes a mistake clearly for diferent reasons than ignorance, specially after having a fluid debate with other persons, you don't rub it in his face trying to make fun of this person.
I now my reply is not kind, but aggressive or offensive posts deserve an offenssive or aggressive reply.
As simple as that
Iván
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Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:42
 ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:46
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Bravo for your smiley, that makes my point.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:56
We need to justify nobody else having heard of/enjoying this brilliant music, so we invent this persecution complex.
It was always dorky, and the pictures in your sig make that very clear.
But the reality, at least that I've seen, is that we are the only ones who actually care what other people listen to. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:58
You're treating punk music as ethos-based, whereas Prog music seems to be evenly style and ethos-based. Cannot Punk be the same? They're two opposite extremes. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:03
Nah, people want to covert people to other types of music all the time, it's the people who really really care about the genres that try to do it. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:10
You had a point? ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:56
I don't believe Punk is purely ethos-based, the cultural component is only one of them, they have a stylistic component of course, but Punk was surrounded by a pseudo philosophy and the idea that everybody else was guilty of the destruction of Rock identity..
Prog was born wider, accepted blending of cultures, influences, Punk was born more restrictive, even from their Garage - MOD roots, or you were MOD or you were against them, you even had to dress like them.
There was a fashion, a philosophy around Punk, something that really wasn't as important in Prog, in the 80's you saw a hard punk and you could identify him, something that didn't happened in Prog, not even in the 70's.
But this is secondary in the thread Stonebeard, I believe the stylistic identity was lost, but that's my pont of view.
Iván
Of course it's better to ignore the previous post. -------------
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Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 00:51
If fashion wasn't important in prog, please explain the images in our signatures. I really doubt that Genesis & Yes just found those clothing items at Sears. ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 01:33
Now you are lost again, the fact that for example PETER GABRIEL used COSTUMES in Genesis, doesn't make it afashion, or did you ever saw somebody dressing as a flower in the streets?
Genesis and Yes used those COSTUMES for PERFORMING.
The clothing that used Yes was mostly a costume also, those capes of Chris Squire or Rick Wakeman, were not very popular in the streets, now Steve Howe and Jon Anderson dressed as Hippies, not as Proggers, if you don't know the difference between a costume and a fashion, well.....
And yes, probably Genesis members found their clothes in Sears:
 As you see, they are regular guys dressing as any regular young man would had dressed in those days, except Peter who is using a COSTUME!
If you don't get it yet, I'll make it easy:
 This is a costume.
While:
 And this:
 IS PUNK FASHION!!
Now you got it?
It's easy if you try.
Iván
-------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 02:56
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^A masterpiece of an reply
Damn I still don't get why some people are devoting 30923 pages to basically say "we like punk and prog is dead".... Now punk killed prog? Again, this website is full of necrophiliacs then... How morbid we are... we not only see dead people.. we love dead music!.... And then we criticize ourselves for liking it!!!! And of course, those close-minded musical bogots that think is actually PUNK the one's that dead... oh... how close minded....
I, for one, I'm happy with my very much alive prog... and happy with the fact that the only punk that you can buy in mainstream stores is emo-pop-punk, as opposed to prog which you can still find, at least bands like TMV or The Flower Kings or Spock's Beard... now when a major retail chain carries one but not the other, it basically tells you: commercially, one is DEAD, the other one may not be next to Mariah Carey in sales but there are still people that buy it that don't have to come from the deepest undergrounds in London....
And if punk is alive in the underground, good for those who love it! But please, either declare yourself a lover of dead creatures or recognize that prog is so alive that commercially succesful bands start to make "proggier" music (read: Coheed and Cambria, for example)...
Damn, even MTV emo-punk bands are trying to "wise up" their music like Panic at the Disco! (which I don't like by the way) whose latest album is halfway Sgt. pepperi-ish or My Chemical Romance whose latest album is a mix of queen and pink floyd....
Who is the dead one here? -------------
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Posted By: Hootywho
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 04:08
Are you out of your mind? both of those are amazing prog albums, and no, prog would NOT kill itself. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 04:43
Well, explain this to me, what the hell exactly is Peter doing here? Beyond the obvious, of course. A tip of the hat to surrealism? I see the scale Statue of Liberty shows up in proportion to the real one in the background. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Hootywho
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 04:53
Every time I see a picture of Peter Gabriel I think to myself "MAN!, this guy is wierd" but then I think "Who cares?, It's Peter Gabriel" and then it moves onto "THIS is what prog is about" and then it moves to "how could something as bad as punk rock kill something as good as this?", finally concluded by "god, punk sucks, peoples taste in music disgusts me". -------------
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Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 06:15
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I must admit that Punk killed prog is quite a myth.It would be more fitting to say that prog was "bankable"
from 1970 to 1973 nothing more(the famous Vertigo label had little means).After major companies left prog music and it's true that some musicians gave credit to it releasing self indulgent records(Tangerine Dream's Phaedra or Amon Duul 2's Made in Germany) and all of you remember or know that Pink Floyd and Yes began making mainstream stuff by the end of the seventies to get larger audiences(such a crime).But I can give various examples of rock critics far from being earnest regarding prog:Yves Adrien was a big Magma fan(former Rock'n Folk journalist)in the beginning of the seventies,praising them anytime but when punk came to the fore he began to blow their music away,saying it was sh*t.I also remembered Robert Fripp saying in an interview(summer 2000) that from 1975 to 1992 NME men didn't care about KC music.As I often say,some rock critics are bad musicians who like fame too much but Prog is not dead(and must stay smart,complex and smashing)! ------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 06:28
Teo, I don't think that's what people are saying. They are speculating on the degree to which punk harmed prog. I'm not ashamed to say I enjoy various manifestations of punk rock, but I'm a progger at heart. Just because I defended punk's continued existence doesn't mean I think prog is dead! To summarise the thread's beginning, before it degenerated into yet another 'he said, she said': Frasse said that 'punk killed prog' was a myth. Fusionfreak and RaphaelT agreed. Walker said punk killed prog in his part of the USA. Tszirmay agreed that the press savagely decimated prog. Your Lame Sister blamed 'crap' prog albums for its demise. Cacho and Hootywho disagreed. Luke J. said punk displaced prog. Ivan said in Peru 'we almost never noticed it,' and that 'Punk doesn't exist anymore'. A B Negative, Atavachron, Mithrandir, Micky, Russellk, James, Peskypesky and Stonebeard disagreed. Peskypesky said punk gave prog a knockout punch. Atavachron said punk didn't really kill prog, but the hype punk received didn't help. Micky told us that prog never really died. Hercules said punk nearly killed prog. Kibble_Alex said prog never had a downfall. The T questioned why we love to talk about how punk killed prog. Atkingani said punk was never great in Brazil. Spookytooth said no. James said punk put prog on hiatus. He provided many examples of how punk is alive today. Treasure provided an example of how prog and punk were fused. Dxz agreed. Slartibartfast provided another. Mithrandir said prog and punk aren't dead, nor should they be seen as enemies. Garion81 said that no other music killed prog, instead blaming record companies for starving the genre of new blood. Henry Plainview said it's a persecution complex. I don't see any evidence of anyone saying 'we like punk and prog is dead'. And as for commercial success, I'm afraid punk-related bands like Green Day, Good Charlotte and Yellowcard are far more successful than anything prog-related. Prog is alive, punk is alive. What's the problem? There's no need for anyone to be defensive about this. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 06:34
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I love these threads.... they are what makes PA's... PA's... take an incorrect and inane notion to start add in a bunch of pointless arguing with faulty and incorrect logic and lack of knowledge on the subject.. top it with having the well written and logical posts ignored hahahah. serve it on a plate.. and there you have it... a PA's house specialty... 5 page thread... that should have never made past a few posts by a couple of posters here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 11:42
Your reply is a perfect example of: 1. Dodging the question. 2. Comparing apples & oranges 3. Not seeing the forest for the trees. 1. You failed to explain why Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull and other prog bands wore these outfits if they were not important in some way. The clothing did not just appear on their bodies. They invested time and money into these outfits (or "costumes"), and yet you argue that they were not important. 2. You are comparing performers with fans, thinking you are proving your point, when you really are just underscoring one of the main differences between prog and punk: that to be a rock performer, you did not need to wear some ridiculous outfit on stage, you could wear the same clothes that you wore on the street. This is a VERY important point, which you fail to grasp. It's not that fashion was important to punk and not to prog. Fashion & style were an important part of both prog and punk. The difference was that the barrier between fan and performer was erased. It was a democratization of style and fashion. It's kind of like going from a system of nobility to a republic. Before punk, the "high style" of prog was worn by the nobles (the performers). With punk, the style was worn by everyone. As a matter of fact, I am dressed very much like a Ramone right now, sitting here in my office in NYC. I'm wearing a black t-shirt, jeans and Converse sneakers. Not a cape and tights. And there are many more people here in this office dressed similar to me. We could strap on guitars and go play at a club right now. We don't need to "dress up" or wear "costumes". That was one of the points of punk. If you can't grasp that, well....you can't see the forest for the trees. ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 12:06
ROTFLMAO!! I love your synopsis. Very very funny. And I absolutely agree with you on many of your points. 1. The recent success of bands like Green Day, Good Charlotte, Blink 182, AFI, etc etc etc, proves that punk music is not "underground" by any means. Now, as a fan of old-school punk like the Clash, Sex Pistols, Ramones, Buzzcocks, etc, I don't particularly care for these newer bands, but they're clearly modelled on those earlier bands. 2. The continued money-making tours of bands like Genesis and Yes prove that prog fans are still alive, and the neo-prog bands prove that there are still prog artists. So prog (the fans and the artists) was not literally "killed" by punk. It was a metaphor. What a lot of us were saying was that the advent of punk and new wave dealt a serious blow to prog and sent it reeling. Many of us believe it's never fully recovered, even to this day. ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 22 2008 at 14:25
Had a long reply, but deleted it, it0's not worth, you're changing totally the subject, but who cares:
1.- You said there was a Prog fashion: I proved you were wrong, not even the musicians, some of them used COSTUMES like Peter Gabriel (Only after September 28, 1972, because he dressed as in the street before, and created the Fox in red dress costume as publicity), maybe Yes, Jethrro Tull etc, but many other bands like Pink Floyd, Kansas, King Crimson, VDGG, Triumvirat, Banco, etc dressed as anybody else, they didn't required nothing special.
2.- The fact that in Punk, the philosophy and fashion was as important as the music is undeniable, there was a Punk philosophy, a Punk fashion (Yes, fashion is what people use in the street, what people use on stage is PERFORMING CLOTHES, like a clown in a circus doesn't creat a fashion of a red nose).
The rest of your arguments are simply trying to distract things from the point Stonebeard and myself were talking, you have evaded the point, so in my case I will end it here.
BTW: I can't see the tree because you're creating a forest to hide how you changed subjects.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Mousoleum
Date Posted: July 23 2008 at 05:10
| Computers. New Wave, and the smarter Prog bands going with it; i.e. Peter Gabriel, Rush, and a handful of others. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: July 23 2008 at 18:55
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Thank's Ivan for the punk site , that was so funny.I mean those "Sets of boredom" I have every single album!!! |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: July 23 2008 at 22:09
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O.K. how about this Punk didn't kill prog. Prog had hit a peak, and was becoming a niche genre, with exceptions like Pink Floyd, Rush, Genesis, Yes, Supertramp, Kansas and Tull. Europeen proggers still kept putting out albums. But the commercial heyday was past as of 1976. Punk jumped on the front pages of the rock media because it was new. It presented something very different from much of what was out there - prog, metal, southern rock, singer-songwriter, country rock. You name it, it was just different. Punk did not however, "kill" any genre or sub-genre. It simply came to occupy its' own space in the musical spectrum. Indeed, before the 70s were over, new wave had replaced punk as the "cool" music of youth. Soon thereafter, hard rock /heavy metal would enjoy another resurgence (AC/DC, Dio's Sabbath, NWOBHM), the Romantic scene would come about (Duran Duran et al), synth pop,Neo Prog, the American metal and then sleaze / hair metal scene, the 80s dance pop and other sugary music configurations (New Kids on the BLock). Then finally, at the end of the 80s brought about another wave of metal, that morphed into grunge that killed hair metal, brought about pop punk, then boy bands, more prog groups emerging from coutnries outside of the UK, US, Europe, p'o'd chick singers (Alanis) , along with the Spice Girls and then the teen & tween scene. SO prog is still alive. SO it couldn't have been killed. Punk finally broke in the states when Nirvana hit platinum. Metal keeps re-inventing itself with traditional forms morphing into more extreme versions. Prog has done so in its' own way (Neo, Retro, basically the stew comprised of all that has come before). Most lasting genres have done the same (country with alt-country or No Depression, contemporary country; punk with pop punk to the various *****core sub-genres; even disco with trance/jungle/dance/bass & drum). So if there remains any recorded material of a musical style (say sousa military marches) that someone out there is still listening too, the music is still alive. So, ipso fact, prog is still alive. And never died. Ditto for Disco ... unfortunately ... but that's just for me. SOme enjoy it. As ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 23 2008 at 23:00
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Well we've nearly beaten the topic to death here, but my 2 cents:
Classic prog collapsed under its own weight. As one who was a prog consumer at the time, I can say that following the Works stuff I quit buying ELP. Following Tales, I quit buying Yes. Following Passion Play, I quit buying JT. You get the idea. I did still indulge in Crimson and Pink Floyd, but mostly I was listening to fusion during this era. Fusion led me to traditional jazz. I did not buy any Kansas, Styx, Toto, etc. albums. I considered that AOR fodder. I did buy the odd Fleetwood Mac or Eagles album at the time -- hardly prog bands. The band that brought me back to listening to anything rock-related was The Clash. London Calling was to my ears pretty proggy in terms of their willingness to incorporate all that had come before. So from the point of view of your average consumer at the time -- and make no mistake we're talking about consumerism here -- punk actually brought me back into the fold.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 24 2008 at 00:10
It's priceless.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: peskypesky
Date Posted: July 24 2008 at 11:14
So the Clash saved the rock'n'roul soul of an old progger? :) Sweet. And yeah, that "London Calling" album is amazing, ain't it? ------------- Prog fan since 1974. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 24 2008 at 11:42
Gotta love the irony of it
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Posted By: Scratchy
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 00:27
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Personally I do not believe Punk killed Prog.In my pre teen years from about 1974 is when I really started to get into Progressive rock (Yes,Genesis & Pink Floyd),although I was not aware of the genre (Progressive Rock at the time - which I only heard of about in 1979'ish which is more or less the time Punk Rock was getting less exposure.New Wave & Mod (The Jam) bands started to grab the headlines at this time.
I think that around this time both Genres had lost imputous.All three of the above 'Prog' bands had already started to streamline their sound to variuos degrees from 1976 onwards,It is debatable whether punk actually influenced this streamlining.Metal started to splinter away from Prog also.i.e.Judas Priest was initially a Heavy Prog band but created a more Industrial sound.It is debatable if this was due to punk either.This new metal was just as influencial on Progs decline as Punk did.The younger heavy rock/metal/prog audience favoured a heavier sound generally,which got heavier & heavier until death metal was created.Ever since then an element of softer sounds have been added to this music because it probably couldn't get any heavier & probably making the musicians a little bit crazy playing it night after night.
I believe when Motorhead was formed is when a punk element was added to metal also.I am not sure whether Hardcore was formed around this period or not or perhaps later.I know alot of NWOBHM bands added an element of Punkish rock to their sound,although most didn't really.One thing I laugh about is that everyone mentions Budgie & Diamond Head as major bands at the time.As far as I can remember they were only had strong support locally (Budgie had already being going for years anyway as A Heavy Prog band in the South Wales area only - I actually saw them live around 1980 period).
Generally I believe that Punk rock & Progressive Rock are genres that are Retro forms of music now.They both belong to a time period.Music can be punkish or be progressive but neither can really truely be placed under the true Genre banner.Today punkish rock surely comes under either Indie or Alternative.If it reverts back to the true Punk sound surely it must be termed Retro-Punk.Alternatively there is alot of progressive sounding music out there,but I would not truely call Progressive Rock.Again if a band gets close to the classic Prog era sound I would call it Retro-Prog.
If you follow my reasoning I would say that both Punk & Prog are both dead.Long live progressive music though (Don't care about Punk really - although I have learned to like some of the marginal punkish (hybrid) groups)
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: July 29 2008 at 11:58
| No, it didn't, but it sure as hell must've been a breath of fresh air. Punk>Prog. |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: July 31 2008 at 05:51
Back to page one we go 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 31 2008 at 06:10
missed this post earlier... but brother.... you just earned my coveted 'post of the week' award there with those wise words...so we have it figured out now.... punk didn't kill prog... it saved it.... very true indeed..... it was the like the hyena that either chased the dinosaurs to the high hills of pop music hell... or fed upon the old tough meat of the old prog warhorses. thus after a nice meal of the old decaying crap of mid to late 70's English prog... what did our punk hyenas do... make lots of little hyenas... and call them new wave... and prog was rescued.... if but for a short time before shred happy acne scarred kids discovered that fusing metal + complexity was enough to fool people into calling it prog thus fostering a vicious inbreeding where outside influences were run off and bands duelled to see how unintelligible and meaningless the lyrics could be and how complex.. yet pointless the music could be. *taken from Darwin's On the Origin of Species... vol 12.. prog rock* ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: August 02 2008 at 05:01
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