ATPS #15: The Other Big 4
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Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48519
Printed Date: February 15 2025 at 07:22 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: ATPS #15: The Other Big 4
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Subject: ATPS #15: The Other Big 4
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 12:30
For anyone confused by the title, I'm referring to the 4 other big bands (not PF, Yes, Genesis, and KC) who are often discussed a lot here on PA. Lately, I've kinda been in a Tull mood so they get my vote.
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Replies:
Posted By: Karbo
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 12:43
I can't vote.
It's too hard to choose between Rush and Frank Zappa!
------------- « Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen. » Ludwig Wittgenstein
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 12:59
I don't know any Zappa, really, so I'm not voting.
ELP would easily win from the other three, though.
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Posted By: keith_emerson
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 13:03
Sorry but in spite of Rush popularitity in this site, Rush is not big IMO Maybe you could mention VdGG or Pink Floyd who have at least 2 albums top ranked
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 13:08
Tull we meet again ![Wink](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif)
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 13:26
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
For anyone confused by the title, I'm referring to the 4 other big bands (not KC, Yes, Genesis, and KC) who are often discussed a lot here on PA. Lately, I've kinda been in a Tull mood so they get my vote.
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u said kc twice?
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 13:48
RUSHHHHHHH
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 14:00
Prefer? Tull surely
Better musicians IMO are ELP and Zappa for sure.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 14:33
Did a bad thing.
Voted to spite SFTW
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 14:38
Can't choose between Rush and Zappa. I have only heard about 10 Zappa albums....and that is not enough to even know what he is about.
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 14:42
don't be modest ;P if you've heard ten Zappa albums then you should have quite the grasp on his music.
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 16:26
jwxlite wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
For anyone confused by the title, I'm referring to the 4 other big bands (not KC, Yes, Genesis, and KC) who are often discussed a lot here on PA. Lately, I've kinda been in a Tull mood so they get my vote.
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u said kc twice?
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Thanks! Sorry about that! I've since corrected the problem. I guess it's b/c I'm not that much into PF anymore![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 16:31
keith_emerson wrote:
Sorry but in spite of Rush popularitity in this site, Rush is not big IMO Maybe you could mention VdGG or Pink Floyd who have at least 2 albums top ranked
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He edited his post now; Pink Floyd and the other big 3 were already in a previous poll of ours.
And as to your comment, VDGG and GG surely would be the remaining 2 making a Big 10, if anything, however...
Since when was VDGG bigger than Rush in terms in absolute influence? I absolutely love Magma and Samla Mammas Manna, along with others, but I will NEVER argue that they belong in the big artists because they did not have the widespread influence and impact. Magma unarguably were one of the most innovative and creative bands of all time and you could easily say "oh, well, this artist is just as influential or more influential than ____ and should be in your list instead", but I say it comes down to bringing prog to the grand scheme of things in order for an artist to be listed as a "big" prog artist.
When it comes down to it... ask 1000 people if they know of Rush and VDGG and I bet you that the numbers would be staggeringly in favor of Rush. Their impact on prog, IMO, is not to be underestimated (especially over here in the States and in Canada), and I do believe they are underrated in their impact on this site especially.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 16:37
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
For anyone confused by the title, I'm referring to the 4 other big bands (not PF, Yes, Genesis, and KC) who are often discussed a lot here on PA. Lately, I've kinda been in a Tull mood so they get my vote.
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for shame... the only measure of any sorts that Genesis not ELP in is that top 4 is popularity here at PA's. They dust Genesis is just about any category you chose to make up.. they suffer the crime of not 'popular' today which is... so very prog ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
oh yeah... voted ELP hahahha
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:00
Interesting challenge, Micky.
Even lyrics?
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Posted By: listen
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:09
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:11
sinkadotentree wrote:
RUSHHHHHHH |
![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Thumbs%20Up](smileys/smiley20.gif)
AGREEEEEEEED!
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:23
TGM: Orb wrote:
Interesting challenge, Micky.
Even lyrics?
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pick another ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:35
Of the four, FZ wins, but this is PA, so occasionally I need to go with actual prog bands. So that leaves out Rush. So ELP vs. Tull equals an ELP vote.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:37
Rush isn't an actual prog band?
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:39
King By-Tor wrote:
Rush isn't an actual prog band?
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back when Carter was President ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:48
micky wrote:
King By-Tor wrote:
Rush isn't an actual prog band? |
back when Carter was President ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Ha I actually remember when Carter was President and it was not good times had by all. As to the Rush reference, bad choice of phrasing on my part. I thought I'd implied that FZ and Rush fall outside of what I would consider prog in the 'traditional' sense that ELP and Tull are. So I votes for ELP.
Now if we're talking something other than 'traditional' prog, well that's another thread, where FZ will be waxing everyone's ass.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 17:57
I do too actually... vaguely remembering the first vote I ever cast.. .honestly do remember this.. was in a mock election in school. Voted for Carter over Ford. Mom told me then if ever voted for the goddamned Republicans and didn't make over 250k a year I was a fool
I sure did learn at an early age just how to pick a winner ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:05
micky wrote:
I do too actually... vaguely remembering the first vote I ever cast.. .honestly do remember this.. was in a mock election in school. Voted for Carter over Ford. Mom told me then if ever voted for the goddamned Republicans and didn't make over 250k a year I was a fool
I sure did learn at an early age just how to pick a winner ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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My vote at the time was unfortunately a real one for Jimmy. Well at least we got Billy Beer out of it, which of course, also, sucked.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:08
micky wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
Interesting challenge, Micky.
Even lyrics?
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pick another ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
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Costumes.
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:12
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:14
jammun wrote:
As to the Rush reference, bad choice of phrasing on my part. I thought I'd implied that FZ and Rush fall outside of what I would consider prog in the 'traditional' sense that ELP and Tull are. So I votes for ELP. |
All is forgiven in that case ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
fear the Rush fanboys!! ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:17
Let me humbly say, I first stumbled upon PA when looking for reviews of Snakes and Arrows.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:18
Good man! ![Thumbs%20Up](smileys/smiley20.gif)
Oh S&A... what can't you do? (no one answer that! )
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:29
TGM: Orb wrote:
micky wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
Interesting challenge, Micky.
Even lyrics?
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pick another ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
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Costumes.
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pfff..
![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/magnification01/B0000033P6.jpg)
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:50
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 18:53
micky wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
micky wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
Interesting challenge, Micky.
Even lyrics?
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pick another ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
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Costumes.
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pfff..
![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/magnification01/B0000033P6.jpg)
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Brr. Just brrrrr.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:00
face it ... ELP just are in a league their own brothers...
they can't help it if short sighted people ... on prog forums of all places call their music self-indulgent, pretentious, or overblown. That's right.. they wrote the book on it.. and all that came after.. were pale imitations.... they.. simply.. are prog.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:02
Draw that conclusion a couple of months ago. Guess you love it or hate it
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:02
Posted By: puma
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:44
Should have been Van der Graaf, but I'll vote for Rush.
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Posted By: TheRocinanteKid
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:45
R to the U to the S to the H.
Not even close.
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 19:53
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.
Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Posted By: JROCHA
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 20:56
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 21:04
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
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Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic?
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 21:08
cacho wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
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Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic? |
Are you kidding me, guys? How many of you actually have heard all of Rush's main 1970s and 1980s albums and have actually talked to people? Their influence is amazingly widespread, they're some of the tightest musicians in all of rock, and since when did Heep and Traffic make as much of an impact on prog and rock in general as Rush did? Rush is 5th in the world for rock in the number of platinum and gold selling albums, even ahead of Pink Floyd.
Have you ears cleaned out and listen to 2112 or Hemispheres. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 22:47
MovingPictures07 wrote:
[QUOTE=cacho] [QUOTE=Hercules] Rush is 5th in the world for rock in the number of platinum and gold selling albums, even ahead of Pink Floyd.
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That would be considerably behind Mariah Carey,
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 22:52
Hmm Gold and platinum! Great investments ! McDonald's and Coca Cola. Corporate giants .
Ian Anderson owns a salmon hatchery that makes the best smoked salmon in the world , according to recent gourmet evaluations. Who said prog has no taste?
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 23:23
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
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Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic? | Are you kidding me, guys? How many of you actually have heard all of Rush's main 1970s and 1980s albums and have actually talked to people? Their influence is amazingly widespread, they're some of the tightest musicians in all of rock, and since when did Heep and Traffic make as much of an impact on prog and rock in general as Rush did? Rush is 5th in the world for rock in the number of platinum and gold selling albums, even ahead of Pink Floyd. Have you ears cleaned out and listen to 2112 or Hemispheres. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
I really care a damn of sales...
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 23:35
cacho wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
|
Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic? | Are you kidding me, guys? How many of you actually have heard all of Rush's main 1970s and 1980s albums and have actually talked to people? Their influence is amazingly widespread, they're some of the tightest musicians in all of rock, and since when did Heep and Traffic make as much of an impact on prog and rock in general as Rush did? Rush is 5th in the world for rock in the number of platinum and gold selling albums, even ahead of Pink Floyd. Have you ears cleaned out and listen to 2112 or Hemispheres. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
I really care a damn of sales... |
Every one of you three (cacho, tszirmay, jammun) are simply nitpicking that part of my argument simply because you have no way to counteract the fact that Rush were HUGE in rock AND prog: Listen to..
Caress of Steel 2112 Hemispheres Permanent Waves A Farewell to Kings
and more
AND not only that
But they have three of the BEST players at their respective instruments (especially Geddy Lee and Neil Peart)
AND
They kept prog alive in the 1980s along with King Crimson, producing art rock and prog-lite/influenced pieces all throughout the 1980s and until today.
Not even Jethro Tull or the others on this list have done that, and you're saying that Heep and Camel were just as influential to be included in the "BIG" artists as Rush?! You have to be kidding me! It's a joke. ![Stern%20Smile](smileys/smiley22.gif)
I simply included the other information to even further my argument saying that Rush were extremely huge to conventional rock AS WELL AS to prog. Especially after your silly nitpickings and simply the enormous impact Rush has had (you can also tell that by going to the "what was your first introduction to prog" thread, I can't take your argument seriously.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 08:28
cacho wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
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Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic? |
It's a sequel to the prog tournament, not an automatic complete judgment on which bands should or should not be considered with the greats, hence 4 bands per bracket, drawn from bands which were in yon tournament.
Camel or Uriah Heep (and to be honest, I've barely heard of Traffic) aren't on a level of notoriety with the bands included. Gentle Giant would be more reasonable as a suggestion.
For preference, Van Der Graaf Generator would replace Pfloyd in the big 4 for me, but it'd be ludicrous to suggest that VDGG should thus be a big four band in a somewhat objective poll.
Edit: Moving Pictures is right about Rush, even if I don't particularly like Peart and Lifeson's styles for the 80s albums I own.
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Posted By: cesar polo
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 08:56
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.
Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
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I completely agree: Camel and Gentle Giant should have been on the list. Well, almost completely agree (my vote goes for ELP ![Wink](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) ).
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 08:58
cesar polo wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.
Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
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I completely agree: Camel and Gentle Giant should have been on the list. |
Why?
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Posted By: Grimfurg
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 08:58
Zappa. Man.
------------- http://regulab.bandcamp.com/album/vol-i/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Luke. J
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:33
Then create another poll with Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator, Camel and maybe.. something else..
If I am in the right mood, Zappa would win. Overall, though, it is ELP. Rush and Tull I accept as good bands, but I hardly ever listen to them (and even like it).
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:41
Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:51
ELP for me, they were the ones that got me into prog. I wish that Frank would have been listened to and appreciated more when he was around. The man could do it all.
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:53
Well, hell just froze over as I am very into Jethro Tull now. I would've gone with Frank Zappa, but I don't like the vast majority of his solo stuff. If it were The Mothers of Invention, though, they'd get my vote in a heartbeat!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:54
Luke. J wrote:
Then create another poll with Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator, Camel and maybe.. something else..
If I am in the right mood, Zappa would win. Overall, though, it is ELP. Rush and Tull I accept as good bands, but I hardly ever listen to them (and even like it). |
I already created a poll with Gentle Giant and VDGG (much earlier, the other two combatants were Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree), and Camel may make its surprise showing in the last match. ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:57
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
|
Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic? | Are you kidding me, guys? How many of you actually have heard all of Rush's main 1970s and 1980s albums and have actually talked to people? Their influence is amazingly widespread, they're some of the tightest musicians in all of rock, and since when did Heep and Traffic make as much of an impact on prog and rock in general as Rush did? Rush is 5th in the world for rock in the number of platinum and gold selling albums, even ahead of Pink Floyd. Have you ears cleaned out and listen to 2112 or Hemispheres. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
I really care a damn of sales... |
Every one of you three (cacho, tszirmay, jammun) are simply nitpicking that part of my argument simply because you have no way to counteract the fact that Rush were HUGE in rock AND prog: Listen to..
Caress of Steel 2112 Hemispheres Permanent Waves A Farewell to Kings
and more
AND not only that
But they have three of the BEST players at their respective instruments (especially Geddy Lee and Neil Peart)
AND
They kept prog alive in the 1980s along with King Crimson, producing art rock and prog-lite/influenced pieces all throughout the 1980s and until today.
Not even Jethro Tull or the others on this list have done that, and you're saying that Heep and Camel were just as influential to be included in the "BIG" artists as Rush?! You have to be kidding me! It's a joke. ![Stern%20Smile](smileys/smiley22.gif)
I simply included the other information to even further my argument saying that Rush were extremely huge to conventional rock AS WELL AS to prog. Especially after your silly nitpickings and simply the enormous impact Rush has had (you can also tell that by going to the "what was your first introduction to prog" thread, I can't take your argument seriously.
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![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
Thank you for a little sanity. I feel ashamed that I wasn't able to join in that.![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:13
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Camel should have been on this list, as should Gentle Giant.Of those 4, I choose Tull, but Camel and Gentle Giant are better.
|
Pretty damn right! If Rush is there also Uriah Heep, and Traffic? | Are you kidding me, guys? How many of you actually have heard all of Rush's main 1970s and 1980s albums and have actually talked to people? Their influence is amazingly widespread, they're some of the tightest musicians in all of rock, and since when did Heep and Traffic make as much of an impact on prog and rock in general as Rush did? Rush is 5th in the world for rock in the number of platinum and gold selling albums, even ahead of Pink Floyd. Have you ears cleaned out and listen to 2112 or Hemispheres. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
I really care a damn of sales... | Every one of you three (cacho, tszirmay, jammun) are simply nitpicking that part of my argument simply because you have no way to counteract the fact that Rush were HUGE in rock AND prog: Listen to..Caress of Steel2112HemispheresPermanent WavesA Farewell to Kingsand moreAND not only thatBut they have three of the BEST players at their respective instruments (especially Geddy Lee and Neil Peart) ANDThey kept prog alive in the 1980s along with King Crimson, producing art rock and prog-lite/influenced pieces all throughout the 1980s and until today.Not even Jethro Tull or the others on this list have done that, and you're saying that Heep and Camel were just as influential to be included in the "BIG" artists as Rush?! You have to be kidding me! It's a joke. I simply included the other information to even further my argument saying that Rush were extremely huge to conventional rock AS WELL AS to prog. Especially after your silly nitpickings and simply the enormous impact Rush has had (you can also tell that by going to the "what was your first introduction to prog" thread, I can't take your argument seriously. |
Don't you get it, I really can't see where Rush can be named as BIG of the entire PROG genre, this is a joke! Rush by no means have the BIG Label on them with the prog genre, maybe with the Heavy Prog genre but as Prog itself, no way.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:33
^
Uh...whut? Rush are huge in the prog genre. They've influenced countless bands, and combined a hard rock and progressive style in a commercially successful manner. Someone who's just gotten into prog will almost certainly end up getting a Rush album before they get a Camel or Uriah Heep one.
Moving Pictures #16, here A Farewell To Kings #24
Moonmadness #29
Camel weren't ever huge in symphonic, though they are now more appreciated than they previously were. Conversely, Rush absolutely dominates the heavy progressive genre, has inspired lots of other bands. It's like saying Floyd isn't huge in the progressive genre.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:41
TGM: Orb wrote:
^Uh...whut? Rush are huge in the prog genre. They've influenced countless bands, and combined a hard rock and progressive style in a commercially successful manner. Someone who's just gotten into prog will almost certainly end up getting a Rush album before they get a Camel or Uriah Heep one.Moving Pictures #16, hereA Farewell To Kings #24Moonmadness #29Camel weren't ever huge in symphonic, though they are now more appreciated than they previously were. Conversely, Rush absolutely dominates the heavy progressive genre, has inspired lots of other bands. It's like saying Floyd isn't huge in the progressive genre.
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Huh? Floyd is, Rush not.. That's it. Get out the Heep and Camel stuff, cause in my last post I didn't put them in. Just cause the rankings, pfff, that's low. I will(would) never get a Rush album and would never recomend any. Wouldn't say that anyone who gets onto prog will get a Rush album, as far as I am concerned 50% or more thought that Rush were a hard rock band, also Heep I won't denie that, but not Camel. Certainly someone will get Camel albums if they're interested in symphonic prog like Genesis and Yes. Before getting a Rush one. Myself that I love 70's hard rock a la Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Sabbath and heavy prog like Black Widow, Atomic Rooster and Heep, don't like Rush, and I don't consider them as huge, cause I've never heard somebody saying prog with Rush.
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:08
cacho wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
^Uh...whut? Rush are huge in the prog genre. They've influenced countless bands, and combined a hard rock and progressive style in a commercially successful manner. Someone who's just gotten into prog will almost certainly end up getting a Rush album before they get a Camel or Uriah Heep one.Moving Pictures #16, hereA Farewell To Kings #24Moonmadness #29Camel weren't ever huge in symphonic, though they are now more appreciated than they previously were. Conversely, Rush absolutely dominates the heavy progressive genre, has inspired lots of other bands. It's like saying Floyd isn't huge in the progressive genre.
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Huh? Floyd is, Rush not.. That's it. Get out the Heep and Camel stuff, cause in my last post I didn't put them in. Just cause the rankings, pfff, that's low. I will(would) never get a Rush album and would never recomend any. Wouldn't say that anyone who gets onto prog will get a Rush album, as far as I am concerned 50% or more thought that Rush were a hard rock band, also Heep I won't denie that, but not Camel. Certainly someone will get Camel albums if they're interested in symphonic prog like Genesis and Yes. Before getting a Rush one. Myself that I love 70's hard rock a la Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Sabbath and heavy prog like Black Widow, Atomic Rooster and Heep, don't like Rush, and I don't consider them as huge, cause I've never heard somebody saying prog with Rush. |
Neither in this post nor your previous one have you provided ANY concrete evidence or backup for any of your claims. If you're going to be a Rush hater, fine. I didn't say you had to LIKE Rush. I really don't care if you do.
As a matter of fact, I don't like Pink Floyd. I think their music is simplistic, I think their albums are WAY overrated, and I simply don't like them. HOWEVER, I would never say that they are not big in prog and I recognize and admire their ability to create unique music that has gone on to be extremely innovative and influential.
Your closed-mindedness doesn't allow you to do the same for Rush. ![Confused](smileys/smiley5.gif)
If you're going to continue to argue, I'll continue to provide evidence. Show me aspects of the 1970s progressive movement, and I will show you that Rush satisfies nearly every single one of them (if not every, which I'm sure they would). Additionally, Rush has the advantage of opening the entirety of Canada and the United States to the prog scene that weren't quite as directly impacted as Britain (Kansas did similarly, but not NEAR to such a degree).
Most importantly and key to being called a BIG artist, Camel is UNKNOWN OUTSIDE OF PROG. My friend, who has been into progressive metal and rock for a few years, even didn't know of Camel until I told him. However, Rush reaches out to influence even more bands in the prog realm alone, let alone outside into a more classic rock setting and even reaching metal (Metallica was influenced by Rush).
Simply put: You didn't address absolutely anything worthwhile in my
post. When you come up with a good argument, I'd be glad to debate it
with you. However, until then, please keep your opinion, feel free to
express it, but try to be more open-minded. Like I and TGM: Orb have
said:
Rush created a unique hybrid of heavy progressive rock and later on
with commercial success that has influenced many bands in rock, PROG
(most importantly), and even metal.
EDIT: If you want the rest of my argument, refer to my last post, which I'm not even sure you read all the way through.
-------------
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:14
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
^Uh...whut? Rush are huge in the prog genre. They've influenced countless bands, and combined a hard rock and progressive style in a commercially successful manner. Someone who's just gotten into prog will almost certainly end up getting a Rush album before they get a Camel or Uriah Heep one.Moving Pictures #16, hereA Farewell To Kings #24Moonmadness #29Camel weren't ever huge in symphonic, though they are now more appreciated than they previously were. Conversely, Rush absolutely dominates the heavy progressive genre, has inspired lots of other bands. It's like saying Floyd isn't huge in the progressive genre.
|
Huh? Floyd is, Rush not.. That's it. Get out the Heep and Camel stuff, cause in my last post I didn't put them in. Just cause the rankings, pfff, that's low. I will(would) never get a Rush album and would never recomend any. Wouldn't say that anyone who gets onto prog will get a Rush album, as far as I am concerned 50% or more thought that Rush were a hard rock band, also Heep I won't denie that, but not Camel. Certainly someone will get Camel albums if they're interested in symphonic prog like Genesis and Yes. Before getting a Rush one. Myself that I love 70's hard rock a la Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Sabbath and heavy prog like Black Widow, Atomic Rooster and Heep, don't like Rush, and I don't consider them as huge, cause I've never heard somebody saying prog with Rush. | Neither in this post nor your previous one have you provided ANY concrete evidence or backup for any of your claims. If you're going to be a Rush hater, fine. I didn't say you had to LIKE Rush. I really don't care if you do.As a matter of fact, I don't like Pink Floyd. I think their music is simplistic, I think their albums are WAY overrated, and I simply don't like them. HOWEVER, I would never say that they are not big in prog and I recognize and admire their ability to create unique music that has gone on to be extremely innovative and influential. Your closed-mindedness doesn't allow you to do the same for Rush. If you're going to continue to argue, I'll continue to provide evidence. Show me aspects of the 1970s progressive movement, and I will show you that Rush satisfies nearly every single one of them (if not every, which I'm sure they would). Additionally, Rush has the advantage of opening the entirety of Canada and the United States to the prog scene that weren't quite as directly impacted as Britain (Kansas did similarly, but not NEAR to such a degree). Most importantly and key to being called a BIG artist, Camel is UNKNOWN OUTSIDE OF PROG. My friend, who has been into progressive metal and rock for a few years, even didn't know of Camel until I told him. However, Rush reaches out to influence even more bands in the prog realm alone, let alone outside into a more classic rock setting and even reaching metal (Metallica was influenced by Rush).
Simply put: You didn't address absolutely anything worthwhile in my
post. When you come up with a good argument, I'd be glad to debate it
with you. However, until then, please keep your opinion, feel free to
express it, but try to be more open-minded. Like I and TGM: Orb have
said:
Rush created a unique hybrid of heavy progressive rock and later on
with commercial success that has influenced many bands in rock, PROG
(most importantly), and even metal.EDIT: If you want the rest of my argument, refer to my last post, which I'm not even sure you read all the way through. |
I do understand what you say.. Your words are exactly the same as I say to other people, but this time is different..
It's not that I just don't like them, my last words of my last post says it, I've never heard Rush to be related to prog! Even though having albums with 20 min songs, the band is not acknowledge as a prog band for most, well now that we're in PA we know... Even though Rush created some magnificent albums as you say (these are your words) and influenced many bands, Rush isn't a really representative of the genre, I really can't see them, okay I don't see Camel neither, neither Heep. Rush isn't a band you buy to know about prog, it's a band you want to know about hard rock, then you may discover they're prog. Please you're not gonna denie me this, I haven't denied yours.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:15
easy boys.. . this is supposed to be fun... don''t forget that
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:18
micky wrote:
easy boys.. . this is supposed to be fun... don''t forget that
|
okay father I'll leave it here.
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Posted By: TheRocinanteKid
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:20
Rush are a Progressive Rock band. I don't see the debate here.
Rush are a band who have constantly progressed throughout their career. I know people who clearly seperate "Prog-Rock" from "Progressive-Rock" I'm going to take that stance in my explanation here.
Rush are a Progressive Rock band, as in throughout their career they have experimented in many different genres and as a huge fan I have to say mastered all of them. Their career is a Progression.
Rush have dabbled in Prog-Rock. Albums like 2112, A Farewell To Kings and Hemispheres are undenably Progressive Rock. That's why we have a Heavy Prog section here on the site I'd say, bands like Rush. There are very few bands who sound like Rush, that makes them all the more awesome in my opinion. Some would say everything Rush has put out... at least Fly By Night onwards... is Prog-Rock. Don't know if I agree and I don't dwell on it. I enjoy Rush music and although I do consider myself a Progressive Rock fan firstly I'm not going to reject a kick arse album like Signals or Counterparts because it doesn't fit the requirements to be a proper Prog-Rock album.
Rush is Progressive Rock.
Rush is Prog-Rock.
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:24
cacho wrote:
[QUOTE=MovingPictures07]
It's not that I just don't like them, my last words of my last post says it, I've never heard Rush to be related to prog! Even though having albums with 20 min songs, the band is not acknowledge as a prog band for most, well now that we're in PA we know... Even though Rush created some magnificent albums as you say (these are your words) and influenced many bands, Rush isn't a really representative of the genre, I really can't see them, okay I don't see Camel neither, neither Heep. Rush isn't a band you buy to know about prog, it's a band you want to know about hard rock, then you may discover they're prog. Please you're not gonna denie me this, I haven't denied yours. |
Well, this is exactly the expanding I needed on your views and I'm
glad you explained it better now. Before, it simply sounded to me as:
"Because I don't like Rush, they aren't one of the BIG bands.", for the
most part.
I see your point and I respect it, but I believe Rush
is more tied to prog than you perceive. However, I'm not going to spend
hours and hours convincing you of that. I don't care that much, and I'm
glad that you have your own opinion and are willing to express it.
If you want to get strict about bands that represent prog, here's how I saw it:
The
"BIGGER" 4 of the BIG 8: These are the biggest 4 of prog, in their
primes pretty much summed up what prog was about, and easily can be
related to by most people (in comparison to the rest of the genre)..
they were the forerunners, despite whether you like their music or not,
and all influenced in their own unique ways.
Pink Floyd King Crimson Genesis Yes
The
"LESSER" 4 of the BIG 8, but still up there: These are the next biggest
4 of prog, in their primes they also summed up their own unique way in
influencing prog and other genres. However, when "prog" comes to
peoples' minds, these might come after the previous 4 in terms of overall influence and prominence. Differences
other than that however may be subjective and trivial.
ELP (though they're the only ones that kinda fit right in between the two lines) Rush Frank Zappa Jethro Tull
I'm
willing to expand on that if you don't understand. Now that I see your
point of view more clearly, I'm willing to compromise with you and say
that we simply disagree on the placement of Rush strictly in
prog's realm. ![Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif)
-------------
|
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:27
TheRocinanteKid wrote:
Rush are a Progressive Rock band. I don't see the debate here.
Rush are a band who have constantly progressed throughout their career. I know people who clearly seperate "Prog-Rock" from "Progressive-Rock" I'm going to take that stance in my explanation here.
Rush are a Progressive Rock band, as in throughout their career they have experimented in many different genres and as a huge fan I have to say mastered all of them. Their career is a Progression.
Rush have dabbled in Prog-Rock. Albums like 2112, A Farewell To Kings and Hemispheres are undenably Progressive Rock. That's why we have a Heavy Prog section here on the site I'd say, bands like Rush. There are very few bands who sound like Rush, that makes them all the more awesome in my opinion. Some would say everything Rush has put out... at least Fly By Night onwards... is Prog-Rock. Don't know if I agree and I don't dwell on it. I enjoy Rush music and although I do consider myself a Progressive Rock fan firstly I'm not going to reject a kick arse album like Signals or Counterparts because it doesn't fit the requirements to be a proper Prog-Rock album.
Rush is Progressive Rock.
Rush is Prog-Rock. |
I agree completely with this. ![Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
I am, however, one of "those people" you mentioned that believes that nearly every album by Rush in some way is a piece of art exemplifying progressive rock or art rock. Despite that, I'm not willing to start a stupid arguement on that one, as it's one of my more seemingly controversial claims on this site. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
-------------
|
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:30
micky wrote:
easy boys.. . this is supposed to be fun... don''t forget that
|
I know. I just simply was baffled at the lack of actual backing up that people think Heep or Camel or god knows what should be in this poll over Rush. Frankly, it's one of the weirdest claims I've ever heard in my life, as (by my previous posts) you know my stance on it.
I'm not willing to let it ruin some great ATPS fun though; I simply wanted to expand upon my argument and I wanted clarification of the opposition's argument, which I received to a decent extent.
I'm glad this has finally gathered some good discussion though. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
GO RUSH!!! ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
-------------
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 16:41
MovingPictures07 wrote:
cacho wrote:
[QUOTE=MovingPictures07]
It's not that I just don't like them, my last words of my last post says it, I've never heard Rush to be related to prog! Even though having albums with 20 min songs, the band is not acknowledge as a prog band for most, well now that we're in PA we know... Even though Rush created some magnificent albums as you say (these are your words) and influenced many bands, Rush isn't a really representative of the genre, I really can't see them, okay I don't see Camel neither, neither Heep. Rush isn't a band you buy to know about prog, it's a band you want to know about hard rock, then you may discover they're prog. Please you're not gonna denie me this, I haven't denied yours. | Well, this is exactly the expanding I needed on your views and I'm
glad you explained it better now. Before, it simply sounded to me as:
"Because I don't like Rush, they aren't one of the BIG bands.", for the
most part.I see your point and I respect it, but I believe Rush
is more tied to prog than you perceive. However, I'm not going to spend
hours and hours convincing you of that. I don't care that much, and I'm
glad that you have your own opinion and are willing to express it.If you want to get strict about bands that represent prog, here's how I saw it:The
"BIGGER" 4 of the BIG 8: These are the biggest 4 of prog, in their
primes pretty much summed up what prog was about, and easily can be
related to by most people (in comparison to the rest of the genre)..
they were the forerunners, despite whether you like their music or not,
and all influenced in their own unique ways.Pink FloydKing CrimsonGenesisYesThe
"LESSER" 4 of the BIG 8, but still up there: These are the next biggest
4 of prog, in their primes they also summed up their own unique way in
influencing prog and other genres. However, when "prog" comes to
peoples' minds, these might come after the previous 4 in terms of overall influence and prominence. Differences
other than that however may be subjective and trivial.ELP (though they're the only ones that kinda fit right in between the two lines)RushFrank ZappaJethro TullI'm
willing to expand on that if you don't understand. Now that I see your
point of view more clearly, I'm willing to compromise with you and say
that we simply disagree on the placement of Rush strictly in
prog's realm. ![Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif) |
You won't make it ... Here's another clarification, maybe stupid or closed minded but here goes. Since I was grown up with the classic prog (the big 4) I would(will) never have doubt that these are not prog bands. For the other 4 well there's the pt were comes my personal thoughts, my father(not Micky) as well as my brother are huge Zappa fans, I remember my father playing Zappa in England, and there were all my roots come from...Zappa was totally different to the big 4 he played me, Floyd, Genesis and Yes (well 3, he didn't play Crimson). So I really don't associate Zappa with prog, even though you can tell me he is by such caracteristics of music, I won't label Zappa as saying yeah that's prog. Really don't know what to call it, better say Avant-Garde or RIO. Even though being prog sub-genres and don't classifie him as prog, even though being.(the same discussion of Rush) Here is were you can tell me I'm close minded. Well I think the prog label are symphonic, electric, psychedlic and Folk. This is not something to discuss, please, this is how I categorise, divide my music, nobody will change that, it's not really cause being close minded, but I was born with those thoughts and still remain with them. Not saying that Magma, Marillion, etc, etc aren't prog, is that I don't label them as prog, my definition of prog is different, I don't know my definition but I know it when I hear it.
Hope this clarifies most of it.
|
Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 16:51
cacho wrote:
[QUOTE=MovingPictures07]
You won't make it ... Here's another clarification, maybe stupid or closed minded but here goes. Since I was grown up with the classic prog (the big 4) I would(will) never have doubt that these are not prog bands. For the other 4 well there's the pt were comes my personal thoughts, my father(not Micky) as well as my brother are huge Zappa fans, I remember my father playing Zappa in England, and there were all my roots come from...Zappa was totally different to the big 4 he played me, Floyd, Genesis and Yes (well 3, he didn't play Crimson). So I really don't associate Zappa with prog, even though you can tell me he is by such caracteristics of music, I won't label Zappa as saying yeah that's prog. Really don't know what to call it, better say Avant-Garde or RIO. Even though being prog sub-genres and don't classifie him as prog, even though being.(the same discussion of Rush) Here is were you can tell me I'm close minded. Well I think the prog label are symphonic, electric, psychedlic and Folk. This is not something to discuss, please, this is how I categorise, divide my music, nobody will change that, it's not really cause being close minded, but I was born with those thoughts and still remain with them. Not saying that Magma, Marillion, etc, etc aren't prog, is that I don't label them as prog, my definition of prog is different, I don't know my definition but I know it when I hear it.
Hope this clarifies most of it. |
It didn't, but I'll succinctly respond to it and close the discussion thusly:
Regardless of what I was "brought up" with or not, I can come to see if a band represents the "mindset" of prog or not. Prog is not a certain sound, it is an artistic and musical attitude. I'll agree to disagree in this case.
Hold your views and classify as you'd like, but it doesn't have to make sense to me. ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
-------------
|
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 17:01
I chose Tull.
For decades Jethro Tull were my favorite band, closely tied with Yes . Great rock. Great prog. Great folk. Great jazz. Just all around great. And Anderson's stage presence blew most other acts away. They could do no wrong.
But all good things must come to and end, and lately it seems close to the end of my lionization (not quite the right word) of Tull. I stayed with them through Anderson's voice problems which have been steadily improving, but I don't think I can get excited about Tull much any more for other reasons. The last straw may be the Live at Montreux DVD in which Anderson can barely be bothered to sing in time to the music. And in interviews and stage banter he pretty much dismisses the whole prog part of their history and has even hinted he doesn't much like rock, or at least not very loud music.
But I have enough love for Tull to still pick them in this list. Back in the day it was Tull and Yes tied for favorite, with ELP running a VERY close second. They were the big three, like Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart are the big three of classical.
------------- If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, creativity is the sincerest form of worship.
|
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 17:20
And if I may put my two cents in for Rush, I would put them 3rd on this list just under ELP or perhaps tied. (Not that any of this is a contest.) One needs only hear "Natural Science" to place them firmly in the prog universe. It's got odd time, several sub-sections, lots of weird synths and production effects, is over 9 minutes long, and compares life in a tide pool with all of human existence. What more does anyone need?
Zappa? I love his music, but I don't think he took things very seriously. I think you're supposed to be overly pretentious to be considered true prog. ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
------------- If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, creativity is the sincerest form of worship.
|
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 19:00
Weston wrote:
And if I may put my two cents in for Rush, I would put them 3rd on this list just under ELP or perhaps tied. (Not that any of this is a contest.) One needs only hear "Natural Science" to place them firmly in the prog universe. It's got odd time, several sub-sections, lots of weird synths and production effects, is over 9 minutes long, and compares life in a tide pool with all of human existence. What more does anyone need?Zappa? I love his music, but I don't think he took things very seriously. I think you're supposed to be overly pretentious to be considered true prog. ![Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) |
Zappa wasn't serious? gees... Zappa is one if the most strict composers, leader that I've ever known.. It's different what he did on stage on what he did on studio.
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 19:17
I guess Weston was in too much of a Rush ( ) and forgot , in his zeal, to research Uncle Frank who had many legends attached to him, some certainly unflattering but mostly universally known as a stickler for practice, having kept some of his musicians playing until they 1- bleed 2-drop or 3-faint . He put up with no "dinamoh-hums" . Frank took it so seriously, he actually put on a suit and tie and intellectually demolished the rather ridiculous censorship arguments vehiculated by Tipper (or is it Tippler ) Gore, in various government settings .
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
|
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 19:31
tszirmay wrote:
I guess Weston was in too much of a Rush ( ) and forgot , in his zeal, to research Uncle Frank who had many legends attached to him, some certainly unflattering but mostly universally known as a stickler for practice, having kept some of his musicians playing until they 1- bleed 2-drop or 3-faint . He put up with no "dinamoh-hums" . Frank took it so seriously, he actually put on a suit and tie and intellectually demolished the rather ridiculous censorship arguments vehiculated by Tipper (or is it Tippler ) Gore, in various government settings . |
Damn right!!
|
Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 00:44
tszirmay wrote:
I guess Weston was in too much of a Rush ( ) and forgot , in his zeal, to research Uncle Frank who had many legends attached to him, some certainly unflattering but mostly universally known as a stickler for practice, having kept some of his musicians playing until they 1- bleed 2-drop or 3-faint . He put up with no "dinamoh-hums" . Frank took it so seriously, he actually put on a suit and tie and intellectually demolished the rather ridiculous censorship arguments vehiculated by Tipper (or is it Tippler ) Gore, in various government settings . |
I was joking of course about music having to be pretentious to be progressive, but I do think it's true you can't really consider Zappa pretentious. There's a whole different attitude between "Astral Traveller" and "Cosmic Debris." Zappa music has all the elements of prog - except the lofty attitude. There are times I wonder to what heights "Sofa No. 2" would elevate me if it had only been less comedic.
I still love his music though -- don't worry. And I recently read The Real Frank Zappa Book. Highly entertaining and sacred cow bashing.
|
Posted By: Okocha
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 09:51
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 10:42
MovingPictures07 wrote:
keith_emerson wrote:
Sorry but in spite of Rush popularitity in this site, Rush is not big IMO Maybe you could mention VdGG or Pink Floyd who have at least 2 albums top ranked
|
He edited his post now; Pink Floyd and the other big 3 were already in a previous poll of ours.
And as to your comment, VDGG and GG surely would be the remaining 2 making a Big 10, if anything, however...
Since when was VDGG bigger than Rush in terms in absolute influence? I absolutely love Magma and Samla Mammas Manna, along with others, but I will NEVER argue that they belong in the big artists because they did not have the widespread influence and impact. Magma unarguably were one of the most innovative and creative bands of all time and you could easily say "oh, well, this artist is just as influential or more influential than ____ and should be in your list instead", but I say it comes down to bringing prog to the grand scheme of things in order for an artist to be listed as a "big" prog artist.
When it comes down to it... ask 1000 people if they know of Rush and VDGG and I bet you that the numbers would be staggeringly in favor of Rush. Their impact on prog, IMO, is not to be underestimated (especially over here in the States and in Canada), and I do believe they are underrated in their impact on this site especially.
|
I have to agree that Rush is a huge influence. They are the reason for me getting into Prog. I had never heard of GG or VDGG until I started my investigation into this genre called Prog Rock. One measure of influence, IMO, is album sales. A band's popularity is critical in being a factor.
-------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 10:54
cacho wrote:
It's not that I just don't like them, my last words of my last post says it, I've never heard Rush to be related to prog! Even though having albums with 20 min songs, the band is not acknowledge as a prog band for most, well now that we're in PA we know... Even though Rush created some magnificent albums as you say (these are your words) and influenced many bands, Rush isn't a really representative of the genre, I really can't see them, okay I don't see Camel neither, neither Heep. Rush isn't a band you buy to know about prog, it's a band you want to know about hard rock, then you may discover they're prog. Please you're not gonna denie me this, I haven't denied yours. |
One could argue the same of Tull. They have many albums which are not Prog, in the same vein Rush is not? How about the very first and then latter Genesis albums?
When Rush wrote serious Prog, it was some of the best out there, in my tastes.
-------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 11:55
Not surprising, but kind of an easy vote for me. Rush are in a tier all by themselves for me followed by Yes in the next tier by themselves. From this group of 4 ELP would be next with Jethro Tull further down (to be honest mostly for their hits rather than their prog output) and lastly would be Zappa, who barely registers on my radar. I have one of his first albums, which really didn't interest me all that much, and a "best of" album from him, but other than Valley Girl and Yellow Snow, I really don't know all that much from him. With Jethro Tull and Frank Zappa, I never really considered them to be prog musicians until I started hanging out on PA. This is more of a knock on my familiarity with them, than a knock on them.
-------------
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:22
rushfan4 wrote:
Not surprising, but kind of an easy vote for me. Rush are in a tier all by themselves for me followed by Yes in the next tier by themselves. From this group of 4 ELP would be next with Jethro Tull further down (to be honest mostly for their hits rather than their prog output) and lastly would be Zappa, who barely registers on my radar. I have one of his first albums, which really didn't interest me all that much, and a "best of" album from him, but other than Valley Girl and Yellow Snow, I really don't know all that much from him. With Jethro Tull and Frank Zappa, I never really considered them to be prog musicians until I started hanging out on PA. This is more of a knock on my familiarity with them, than a knock on them. |
I've been a huge fan of Rush for years, and I also didn't discover Zappa until much later (actually not even a year ago, but it's getting close now). If you're willing to give it another try, I absolutely must recommend "Hot Rats", as it's one of my favorite albums ever and a great introduction to Zappa.
Because all of his albums can be vastly different however, it all depends and you may just need to find the perfect starting point based on your own personal taste.
-------------
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Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 13:44
micky wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
For anyone confused by the title, I'm referring to the 4 other big bands (not PF, Yes, Genesis, and KC) who are often discussed a lot here on PA. Lately, I've kinda been in a Tull mood so they get my vote. |
for shame... the only measure of any sorts that Genesis not ELP in is that top 4 is popularity here at PA's. They dust Genesis is just about any category you chose to make up.. they suffer the crime of not 'popular' today which is... so very prog ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
oh yeah... voted ELP hahahha
|
I like ELP a lot, but Genesis had so many better albums over a longer period of time, its not even funny. No contest. As songwriters, its not even close. When ELP ran out of ideas, they absolutely hit a brick wall. And even their good albums were uneven and inconsistent. And as talented as Emerson was, the cringe factor was always huge when he started rolling around on wires playing upside down. No group helped bring prog crashing down faster than the bombastic excesses of ELP, which is probably why over time they are not as quite highly regarded.
Having said that, I have always seen it referred to in prog circles as the "Big 5", meaning Yes, Floyd, Genesis, Crimson and ELP. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone use the terminology "Big 4". And as far as the next tier, what is Zappa doing in there?
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:02
I've always considered ELP to be too Vaudeville to be taken entirely seriously. In terms of their recorded output I'd say a "Best Of" would always be their "best album" if you catch my drift.
Worse than when Yes went OTT with Tales, ELP committed career-suicide with Works. The whole touring orchestra thing was banal.
I prefer Rush, surprise, surprise, but they weren't as influential on Prog as either ELP or Jethro Tull.
Zappa's not really a Prog icon. Yes he belongs here but he isnt Prog Rock by any stretch of the imagination.
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Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:06
With regard to Rush, having grown up in the 70s, I can tell you that initially no one thought of Rush as a prog band. They were a hard rock band. And their first few albums justify that label. There is nothing prog about them.
Rush then did become more progressive with 2112, Hemispheres, Farewell to Kings. I never thought of them as a group that totally became a progressive rock group, as they maintained a hard rock core, but the early prog influences of the BIG 5 certainly influenced Rush in the late 70s. As they entered the 80s they retained those prog influences, especially on stuff like Natural Science from Permanent Waves, but as the 80s wore on they became more of an AOR band with some prog influences, and moved in the same direction as Kansas. By the mid 80s they weren't really doing progressive rock as we knew it in the early 70s of course. So I have always been on the fence about thier progginess. They really are a band that really only had a 6-7 year period of prog in the late 70s early 80s. They certainly have been a gateway for many who had been exclusively into "hard rock" to get into prog, due to their arena friendly radio oriented style in the 80s where they won over huge number of fans. So you have to give them credit for attracting fans to prog, even though they were never fully a prog band like the big boys.
I would consider Renaissance, Gentle Giant, Hawkwind etc much more in the second tier of bands after the Big 5 before Rush, but there is no doubt they were an entryway into prog for many.
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 14:21
Dr. Prog wrote:
With regard to Rush, having grown up in the 70s, I can tell you that initially no one thought of Rush as a prog band. They were a hard rock band. And their first few albums justify that label. There is nothing prog about them. |
First two Rush albums, not really Prog, even though Fly By Night had "ByTor and the Snow-Dog" which could be considered Prog. But Caress of Steel not Prog? Better go over that one again. "The Fountain of Lamneth" and "The Necromancer" not Prog?
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:07
Dr. Prog wrote:
With regard to Rush, having grown up in the 70s, I can tell you that initially no one thought of Rush as a prog band. They were a hard rock band. And their first few albums justify that label. There is nothing prog about them.
Rush then did become more progressive with 2112, Hemispheres, Farewell to Kings. I never thought of them as a group that totally became a progressive rock group, as they maintained a hard rock core, but the early prog influences of the BIG 5 certainly influenced Rush in the late 70s. As they entered the 80s they retained those prog influences, especially on stuff like Natural Science from Permanent Waves, but as the 80s wore on they became more of an AOR band with some prog influences, and moved in the same direction as Kansas. By the mid 80s they weren't really doing progressive rock as we knew it in the early 70s of course. So I have always been on the fence about thier progginess. They really are a band that really only had a 6-7 year period of prog in the late 70s early 80s. They certainly have been a gateway for many who had been exclusively into "hard rock" to get into prog, due to their arena friendly radio oriented style in the 80s where they won over huge number of fans. So you have to give them credit for attracting fans to prog, even though they were never fully a prog band like the big boys.
I would consider Renaissance, Gentle Giant, Hawkwind etc much more in the second tier of bands after the Big 5 before Rush, but there is no doubt they were an entryway into prog for many. |
Funnily enough I was introduced to Rush in 1976 by a friend's brother who had spent some time in Canada and returned with a clutch of Rush LPs. He insisted I borrow 2112 as I was "into Prog Rock"..
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:09
Sorry StyL, accidently edited your post. Actually, I just added a / so your quote code would work, I thought I was editing my own post..
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:19
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:58
StyLaZyn wrote:
Dr. Prog wrote:
With regard to Rush, having grown up in the 70s, I can tell you that initially no one thought of Rush as a prog band. They were a hard rock band. And their first few albums justify that label. There is nothing prog about them. |
First two Rush albums, not really Prog, even though Fly By Night had "ByTor and the Snow-Dog" which could be considered Prog. But Caress of Steel not Prog? Better go over that one again. "The Fountain of Lamneth" and "The Necromancer" not Prog?
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Well, I said first few albums were not prog, specifically the first 2.. Caress of Steel was the third. I think it attempts to be a prog album, and the song structures are in a prog format, but I think they are still finding their way and still developing at that point. 2112 was certainly a more successful attempt at moving toward prog from straight hard rock.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 19:22
StyLaZyn wrote:
cacho wrote:
It's not that I just don't like them, my last words of my last post says it, I've never heard Rush to be related to prog! Even though having albums with 20 min songs, the band is not acknowledge as a prog band for most, well now that we're in PA we know... Even though Rush created some magnificent albums as you say (these are your words) and influenced many bands, Rush isn't a really representative of the genre, I really can't see them, okay I don't see Camel neither, neither Heep. Rush isn't a band you buy to know about prog, it's a band you want to know about hard rock, then you may discover they're prog. Please you're not gonna denie me this, I haven't denied yours. |
One could argue the same of Tull. They have many albums which are not Prog, in the same vein Rush is not? How about the very first and then latter Genesis albums?
When Rush wrote serious Prog, it was some of the best out there, in my tastes.
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I do agree that Tull are not completly prog, as a WHOLE they're behind prog. But Tull is considered prog, and I do, cause they've released IMO and surely many others, one of the best prog albums ever. Influential or not, you're not gonna denie me that Thick as a Brick is one of the pinnacles of prog together with DSOTM, ITCOTCK, Fragile or CTTE, the Lamb or SEBTP..etc..
I can see that Rush wrote good prog material, but never released an album that reaches the standards of the albums mentioned before, IMHO.
For Movingpictures, sorry to continue but here's a little bit what I say before and I'll respond what you said later that I forgot..
Well my point was that Rush MAINLY isn't considered as a prog band, more like a hard rock band or even metal for some... the majority of people get into Rush not knowing they're prog if not that they are pretty damn good hard rock band. Then with PA or other info sites or friends, you discover they're prog.
You Said that Rush influence was high, and you named me a band or two. I'm surely the band/s you named me were metal or hard rock. So I'm pretty damn sure that my point is correct. They really don't represent prog as a whole. They may represent hard rock or heavy prog but prog as a whole, for what you said, no sir.
Please I'm waiting as you waited before, a good response on this. It's not that I wanna win this discussion I just wanna know. Get proofs, in some way, I do believe you of course, but let's expand ourselves to better discussion, if you want, I'm willing, not to fight, but to discuss.
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Posted By: Weston
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 21:49
cacho wrote:
...the majority of people get into Rush not knowing they're prog if not that they are pretty damn good hard rock band. Then with PA or other info sites or friends, you discover they're prog.
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You're probably right about the majority, but not everyone.
My own history with Rush goes something like this.
1. Saw "Working Man" on Don Kirshner's Rock Concert or maybe The Midnight Special, thought they were somewhere between a Led Zeppelin wannabe and Foghat. Yawned and waited for something better to come on.
2. Totally ignored the band for close to a decade.
3. Saw the "Tom Sawyer" video on some early 80's video show or other. Sat bolt upright and said aloud, "*@#$! These guys are playing progressive rock now!" The bass pedals, the synths, the soaring vocals (now without being screechy), the bass sounding ever so slightly like Chris Squire's. Yep. It was progressive enough for me to go out an buy the album immediately and then discover there's odd rhythms too.
This was long before we had anything like the internet or PA to influence our mental labeling. I guess we each have our own definition of what progressive rock is.
Heck, I currently have a co-worker who argues up and down with me that Gentle Giant were a jazz fusion band. (?!) Yeah, whatever. __________________________________ Currently listening to: Ian Anderson - The Secret Language of Birds
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 22:33
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Let this thread die! If you must continue the whole Rush is/isn't a big prog rock band, make a new thread. Otherwise let this poll fade into non-existence which starts within the next 1-2 pages on the forum![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 22:47
Weston wrote:
[QUOTE=cacho]
Heck, I currently have a co-worker who argues up and down with me that Gentle Giant were a jazz fusion band. (?!) Yeah, whatever. __________________________________ Currently listening to: Ian Anderson - The Secret Language of Birds
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That's a new one to me. Jazz? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 23:04
OK folks, let's put some historical perspective here, considering the four artists presented, before this thread is put under.
Zappa's albums run the gamut of music. You will find rock, prog, fusion, and any number of other genres (some previously unknown) in his catalog. But he is not prog in the traditional sense (i.e., not typically grouped with ELP, Yes, KC, and whomever else you care to mention).
ELP is considered traditional prog, since they were one of the first bands working in what we would generally agree to be prog, along with Yes and KC and some other bands, yes even the Moody Blues.
Jethro Tull, while not perhaps initially considered prog, certainly dabbled in it on their early albums and became full-fledged members once TAAB was released. I would consider this Tull's first prog album. What happened afterwards is for another thread.
Rush is more difficult. I hated the first Rush songs I heard, back around 1979. You can't convince me that Working Man is prog, nor Fly By Night, nor any number of their early songs. They were decidedly not prog in any then accepted sense. I know this ecause the local FM-ROCK station had them in steady rotation, and believe me NO rock station was putting prog in the rotation at the time. As the band grew in skills, both songwriting and instrumentally, I could see how they would become to be conceived as prog. For me this happened with Moving Pictures, though again this would have been more in the vein of a Zep type of transformation, where Zep moved from essentially being a really loud blues-based band (first album) to a band taking greater risks musically (say Houses of the Holy). (Should add that Zep was also in steady rotation on said FM-ROCK station.) Rush had that kind of progression. So that is why I would not consider them a prog band in the traditional sense, no more than I would consider Led Zep a prog band. Now Rush has had the good fortune of having considerably more longevity than Zep, so they have become viewed as a prog band. And looking back, why not? They have managed to run that gauntlet, to the point that I consider them, if not prog, then certainly 'intelligent' rock, or some variation thereof. Which is what I think all of us who stumble onto this site are interested in.
Which, if you're still reading, was at least my reason for voting for ELP.
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 23:06
*Shoves crimhead's and jammun's faces into my previous post*
If you feel like discussing ANOTHER topic other than the Rush one, also make another thread for it. I now attempt to send this thread "where the sun don't shine" in hopes that it stays there.
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Posted By: Relayer09
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 23:15
It's going to have to be ELP for me. Pictures At An Exhibition, Tarkus, Karn Evil 9, Fanfare For The Common Man, Trilogy. Prog masterpieces all of them. I just don't think the other four bands have five prog epic type pieces as good as those five.
------------- If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 23:16
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
*Shoves crimhead's and jammun's faces into my previous post*
If you feel like discussing ANOTHER topic other than the Rush one, also make another thread for it. I now attempt to send this thread "where the sun don't shine" in hopes that it stays there.
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My point being this particular poll is, legitimately, only a two-horse race.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 14 2008 at 16:58
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!Let this thread die! If you must continue the whole Rush is/isn't a big prog rock band, make a new thread. Otherwise let this poll fade into non-existence which starts within the next 1-2 pages on the forum
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Won't do it! Kidding.. Ok sorry, but I'm not in a mood of making a thread discussing Rush, since the majority of PA will throw me stones from the other half of the planet. Better keep it cool down on this thread, were the OP(you) is somewhat letting me do this, hehe.
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