Free Jazz
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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48395
Printed Date: November 22 2024 at 19:44
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Topic: Free Jazz
Posted By: Yukorin
Subject: Free Jazz
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 04:05
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Is there anything better? I nearly cut my right hand off chopping the celery for the Mrs.
Give me squonk! ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 15:04
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i can only listen to so much free jazz in one shot. i feel fatigued after listening to something like Ascensions or something... it's great though, and i understand the artists' intentions.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 15:50
| Jazz is a genre I find more enjoyable to perform than listen to. No, really, I've played jazz clarinet myself but I've rarely listened to "pure" jazz anywhere as much as I listen to jazz-inspired rock. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:09
I just listened to The Shape of Jazz to Come by Ornette Coleman. Such a brilliant album.
Also love Coltrane and Zorn. I need more, though, for sure.
Best direction jazz ever went. EDIT: for anyone who hasn't heard it, the CD of Zorn rearranging Coleman's pieces (Spy Vs. Spy) is *really* good.
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Yukorin wrote:Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:36
When the demon is at your door In the morning it won't be there no more Any major dude will tell you Have you ever seen a squonk's tears? Well, look at mine Nothing's better than guitarist/chauffeur Sonny Sharrock. I'm currently obsessed. Bill Laswell's (love the Arcana album) really a true hero for diggin' up all these geniuses in the 80's and 90's. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: electricsilence
Date Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:32
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Listen to spiritual unity by Albert Ayler, but only do so if you already are a jazz listener, free jazz is a very difficult genre to appreciate, but think about it this way, if Coltrane played free jazz, it can't be that bad.
------------- All I am saying is give Pez a chance. www.pezapesta.com.ar http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3307 |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 00:50
| Yeah its pretty great. |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 02:10
sure why not, when the mood strikes Art Ensemble of Chicago is the flavor I usually prefer, also the battery of Cecil Taylor softens my gray matter for the better! 
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Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 06:37
He's superb, inne. Nurse With Wound list staple as could well be 'Arthur Doyle Plus Four'. Jesus Christ monkey balls, God knows who introduced me to them
ps is that Haco in yer avatar? -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 06:42
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Yes! Lovely Haco! How come you never introduced me to her? I had to find her all by myself. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 06:55
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I find her overly pretentious to be honest. Come on chaps, give me squonk! -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 07:12
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You don't like After Dinner (Don't know the solostuff)? Being an artist and all, I guess I'm too pretentious myself to notice. What's give me sqounk? And what were you playing when you nearly chopped you're hand off? You'll be in for a shock if you haven't heard Herbie Mann Stone Flute with Sonny Sharrock. Got the vinyl for 2.50$ on ebay! Quite free and supersublime.  How do you like Sharrock's albums with his screaming wife? Black Woman is currently on my desert island list. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 07:22
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He's quite the looker!
Everything Sonny Sharrock goes down a treat. Was playing some unholy mix of Borbeto and Anal Magic and Arthur Doyle Plus Four. Jeez, my ears... -------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 07 2008 at 07:37
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You're way ahead of me with this free stuff. Don't really know any of those, except for a couple of random tracks by Arthur, including the fantastic Ancestor. I haven't even seen the Anal Magic-flick from '94. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: May 08 2008 at 03:49
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Miles' "Lost" Quintet is very free jazz to my ears, not to mention serious psychedelic jazz-rock. MAYBE the best lineup he ever had................. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 04:57
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A really awesome free jazz blog here, including downloadable interviews and presentations of new releases: http://www.tfjhp.blogspot.com/ - http://www.tfjhp.blogspot.com/ And I really don't agree that free jazz is a difficult genre to appreciate (ok, maybe with the exception of the really extreme stuff like Borbetomagus - which I guess is more like acoustic Noise than free jazz - or some Zorn) Is this thread also meant to include non-jazz based free impro, like the late, great Derek Bailey or the AMM? |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 05:03
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Yeah man, stick anything on here. And cheers for the blog tip -------------
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Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 05:09
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linked from the blog Visitor13 posted http://freejazz-stef.blogspot.com/ - http://freejazz-stef.blogspot.com/
looks pretty tasty -------------
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 11:55
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I just got hold of Waves From Albert Ayler by Mount Everest Trio, and Karyobin by Spontaneous Music Ensemble - great stuff! ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 20:25
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Miles never got entirely sucked into that free jazz abyss....Miles was really into form, space, texture.....I know there are some moments from the overly ripe period of his post-quintet period, albums like Agatha and Pangea or on some looser jams around the time of On the Corner, but I feel that was more he and the band spreading out a "scorched Earth" atmosphere, that Miles was intending to communicate through chaos a message of where he felt society/music/politics was heading....it really is heavy stuff, as tough to listen to at times as the Ayler, late Coltrane, Coleman records of the sixties.
I can handle those Japanese double albums from Miles, but pure free jazz still has too much of the "yank on the elephant's tail" sound....all formless screech that DOES at times communicate the aching soul of the artists, but it's just too much.....like watching the Sorrow and the Pity over and over....just too much pain and nothing to groove on....all work and no play.
And, Herbie Mann is the polar opposite of free jazz.....everything he ever recorded is candy for the ears, in mostly a good way....some of the stuff was a little too marshmallowy. ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: May 09 2008 at 23:01
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asking last.fm to gimme similar artists to Keiji Haino eventually made it spit out tracks by Derek Bailey and Albert Ayler; both were significantly more neato than I had suspected they'd be. =)
but I'm still a noob at zis. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 02:54
| any Alice Coltrane fans? I love the albums Universal Consciousness and Journey in Satchidananda, not so much harsh but great freewheeling cosmic soul, so good! |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 03:46
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Journey In Satchidananda is superb but I'm looking for the most brutal, out-there free-jazz imaginable. Who holds the keys? -------------
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 09:03
I'd say Borbetomagus, BUT the new Brotzmann army, I mean tentet, can probably deliver more destruction through sheer numbers. Also: http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/reviews/001876.html - http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/reviews/001876.html and (stretching the definition of free jazz a bit): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrtnqCNNW4w - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrtnqCNNW4w Anyone here familiar with the Brotzmann/Fred Hopkins/Rashied Ali album? |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 10:30
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I've got 2 Borbetomagus cds and they are both right up my street. And when I said 'who holds the keys' I meant 'which member on here knows his sh*t'? Looks like I found him! Oh, and your site is farking awesome -------------
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 10:45
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Heh, it's not my site, just a site I love. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 10:51
Yikes, never would have suspected South Korea could do THIS to a man... |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 12:47
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I like the wide variety you get with Sun Ra albums. Some of it is "free jazz" and some of it isn't.
Anyway, a friend of mine who was asked to play a "free jazz" gig for free at a local farmer's market came up with the term "cheap jazz". ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 13:01
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have you heard Cecil Taylor/Max Roach - Historic Concerts? thats pretty barbaric stuff, also Pat Metheny/Derek Baily/George Bendian/Paul Wertiico - The Sign of 4, 3xCD set, is really good, I have some Steve Lacy and Even Parker LPs in my shelves, I'll have listen to those again, its been a while |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 13:18
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Steve Lacy and Ewan Parker I've heard bits and pieces. Will check the rest of your reccomendations. Cheers all!
By the way Japan (well Tokyo, not sure about the rest of the place) have this policy outside major train stations where you can get to see some amazingly hot free-jazz/fusion/hard-bop amateurs/enthusiasts. No hawking of cds or anything, just playing out of sheer love. Unbeatable. (soccer players take note)
There was a bassist who would play well-known classical themes by playing the bass as if it was a piano using all his fingers tapping away. I miss him, actually -------------
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 12:25
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Evan Parker's great, he played with The Spontaneous Music Ensemble if memory serves... Just got hold of some Masayuki Takayanagi New DIrection Unit, there's some great guitar-based noise there. Still looking for April Is the Cruellest Month, I heard it's one of Takayanagi's best. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:00
| Evan Parker was also part of that Music Improvisation Company with Derek Bailey, Jamie Muir, and Huge Davies, I have that CD 1968-1971- it not so caustic but more subdued, shuffling, scratching, random pieces like AMM, |
Posted By: electricsilence
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:35
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Conference of Birds, anyone?
------------- All I am saying is give Pez a chance. www.pezapesta.com.ar http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3307 |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 14 2008 at 14:09
indeed!
 thats a holy grail of Free Jazz if I ever heard one, |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:36
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Actually this music destroys my brain (in the best possible way) for the last 5 years. My 10 favorites records at this time are: 1) Spiritual Unity by Albert Ayler (for me, Ayler is THE icon of free jazz. He is the best free jazz saxophonist ever lived and noone will ever achieve what he achieved. His ability to express feelings and emotions in that direct complex way, easily, is beyond comprehension.) 1) Albert Ayler in Greenwich Village by Albert Ayler 1) At Slug's Saloon, Vol. 1 by Albert Ayler 2) The Shape of Jazz to Come by Ornette Coleman 3) Little Birds Have Fast Hearts, No. 1 by Die Like a Dog Quartet (Brotzmann' Project - You can clearly see his admiration to Ayler in this record) 4) The Black Ark by Noah Howard (The most underrated free jazz musician of all times. Period) 5) For Alto by Anthony Braxton 6) Matanohi no yumemonogatari by Kaoru Abe (absolutely stunning musician from Japan, in the vein of Braxton - Yukorin, track him down) 7) Pakistani Pomade by Alexander von Schlippenbach Trio 8) Repent by Charles Gayle (Really interesting story behind this incredibly skilled saxophonist. This album is probably the most spiritual record after Ayler's Spiritual Unity) 9) Koln by Last Exit (Brotzmann's project once more. Master Sharrock shines once again) 10) Unit Structures by Cecil Taylor electricsilence, great suggestion. Conference of the Birds is undoubtedly, the best work of Dave Holland. It really is an inspiring record full of joy and color. The only popular one I cannot appreciate much, is Coltrane in this matter (I love some of his 'conventional jazz' works). His free jazz records are just spineless, out of place and dizzy. But that just me, and I'm only judging his Ascension period. Also, as mentioned, Sonny Sharrok has some shining gems in his discography. He was remarkable and innovative guitarist. Yukorin, dive in! ------------- 
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Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 15 2008 at 04:06
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Cheers oracus! I love you -------------
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Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: May 15 2008 at 11:52
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I just realized noone mentioned Brotmann's Machine Gun, since Yukorin requested the hard stuff! I can't say I fond this (I much prefer his debut and 14 Love Poems) but I surely can say that it is one of the most dificult pieces of free jazz I 've ever encounter. If you want to bleed your ears and vanish every melody detector in your brain, check it out. P.S. I wrote your name wrong in the previous post, because I have in mind a Japanese friend of mine with the name Yukari. Is Yukari the female version of Yukorin? -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 15 2008 at 14:38
| wow, I thought Ascension was mind blowing, but Im probably not as learned about Free Jazz as some of you folks though, I have a pretty healthy stack in my collection but I've probably just scratched the surface, I'll definitely check out some of those albums I haven't already heard that you listed in your top 10! |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: May 15 2008 at 19:45
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Mithrandir, you seem to be a black metal fanatic; how come and you are interested in jazz and especially free jazz (that's a great thing!)? -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 15 2008 at 20:24
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well, Im a fan of great music what can I say!? my roots are indeed in Black, Death, Doom, Thrash Metal and Hardcore Punk, Grindcore etc, but of course since I was about 18 I've branched out and discovered so much other great music since then, (Im 34 now), I still have loyalty and love for my roots all the while adopting many new bands into my family of favorites along the way,
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 15 2008 at 20:27
| by the way, Im set to order Brötzmann's - The Complete Machine Gun Sessions and Cecil Taylor's Unit Structures....so good! and I might throw in Live In Greenwich Village and few other things once I check them out, via DL |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 05:55
Sounds good, I love AMM! ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 06:35
I was going to mention Jacques Thollot, but while googling him I found a comment on him by topic starter. But him (and Sharrock's) playing on a great, freeflowing, but not really brutal Don Cherry album: Eternal Rhythm from '68. I'll reccomend Brotherhood Suite I & II mainly from the same period as well. Just bought his '75 sometimes selftitled album, sometimes called Brown Rice. Totally fantastic, but more structured. Thollot's also playing on Sonny Sharrock's ugliest (in a nice way) album Monkey-Pockie-Boo. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 20:05
I 've never heard of Herbie Mann, but that cover is too ugly ;-) Which is his best album? Is 'stone flute' the only one that Sharrock plays in? mithradir, Good choices!  Let the freedom speaks!-------------
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 17 2008 at 08:16
Sharrocks plays on three that I got, Live at the Whiskey a Go-Go, Memphis Underground and Stone Flute. The
latter is the only one I'd say is essential, although the live one is great too. Mann's normally associated with latin grooves and
cozy melodic jazzstuff, but http://www.musthear.com/reviews/stoneflute.html - Stone Flute is different. (read the great review).  Btw: The legendary ugly cover I posted is Push, Push. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: May 18 2008 at 06:17
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Thanks for the info. I 'll definately check him out -------------
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Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: May 19 2008 at 22:04
I was completely obsessed with Masayuki last year - still am but not quite so heavily - and ended up purchasing a good chunk of his discography, mainly the free-jazz records. Which New Direction Unit material have you listened to? He was an artist that really pushed my boundaries regarding free-jazz and for me is the epitome of this kind of music, tho' I'm sure this maybe my skewed opinions. Thankfully the last few years have seen a decent slice of this work re-issued on eloquently packaged mini-lp discs. April is the Cruelest Month is a every good album can also recommend one of my favourite solo discs: Eclipse. I also recommend to purchase two of the collaboration albums he did with Kaoru Abe (sax) entitled Mass Projection and Gradual Projection. They are two distinctly different albums. Mass is the full on onslaught you'd expect from MT while Gradual is a more restrained effort featuring Masayuki on the gut stringed guitar which he plays exceptionally well for some who only picks up an acoustic once every five years. Kaoru Abe is a master at what he does, he finds one of the most delicate balances between restraint and out burst I have seen, but funnily enough I'm not huge on his solo works but that is matter of taste (I'm not overly fond of sax) rather than quality. Much of the Japanese free-jazz scene from the 70's was highly based 'round this dichotomy between loud and soft and was often very politically minded. If you are interested in this scene another essential is Masahiko Togashi Quartet and their album Now We Create from 1969, this is a stunning album probably closer to the sound a jazz AMM regarding the spacial awareness; featuring an assortment of winds, strings and percussion. Masayuki is/was very strict on the theoretical components of composition, which might not be so apparent when listening to some of his full blown pieces of cacophony and often viewed self taught musicians with a certain disdain. From memory there was only one student to make it all the way through his vigorous teaching; I know it was a bassist but I cannot remember his name off the top of my head, I think he played with Keiji Haino throughout the years. Otomo Yoshihide also study under him for a period before pursuing more electronic means, a tribute can be seen from Otomo's rendition of the Lonely Women guitar improvisations. I have also had brief encounters with some of his earlier works with follow the more traditional jazz modes, they didn't really catch my interest so I personally cannot recommend anything from this early period. In his later works he has steered toward using the table top guitar, I've yet to hear any of the results. oops, that post was a little all over the place. Got a little excited 'bout seeing his name mentioned hear. |
Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: May 20 2008 at 06:30
Thanks, BV! I've got Eclipse and Call In Question. Haven't had a chance to listen to them much (my other half doesn't appreciate the finer points of free jazz) but I really enjoyed them. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 20 2008 at 15:01
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Can anyone recommend me similar albums in vibe/style as Sun Ra's "The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra Vol 1 +2" ?...Im obsessed with this CD! would this even be considered Free Jazz? I don't know, much of it seems composed like Gyorgy Ligeti or some other 20th Century Composers but it also has its moments of scorching improvisation, I love it all though man! the entire work is brooding and anceint sounding and brimming with a constant feeling of unease...like it wasn't recorded by humans, or perhaps Sun Ra channeled the cosmic spirit of those aliens who created the Great Pyramids! |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: May 20 2008 at 15:25
I'd be interested in that too. Found some similar stuff here and there on other Sun Ra albums, but that's about it. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: May 20 2008 at 16:22
I can't really think of anyone that sounds like Sun Ra on a consistent basis. Even his own work covers a very wide variety of styles, but always with a little something that makes it unmistakebly him. As far as other Sun Ra records that sound like Heliocentric Worlds. If I remember correctly those were very European avant-garde records, and I think he only did that in smaller doses on other albums. I will get back if I find anything. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 20 2008 at 19:23
| yeah, I checked out Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy, some tracks are sort of like Heliocentric Worlds, not as consistent though, |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 21 2008 at 06:20
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Speaking of Conference of the Birds, the band Circle with Braxton, Holland, Altschull and Chick Corea should be mentioned. And speaking of Corea's wild years, he makes a cameo on another classic - Conflagration by John Surman/Stu Martin/Barre Phillips. Some additional recommendations: The Revolutionary Ensemble - Leroy Jenkins/Sirone/Jerome Cooper - violin/double bass/drums. Quite an instrumental line up for a jazz band. Mario Rechtern - saxophone player. Haven't heard any of his music, but he's supposed to be as good as he is underappreciated. Ned Goold - another saxophone guy. His music isn't free jazz per se, since the rhythm section is really swing-focused, but he plays the weirdest and really unique things over it. |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 21 2008 at 10:06
yes! Ive been searching for that for years, its been OOP for quite some time, anytime Ive seen for sale used or on ebay its always way too expensive,
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: May 27 2008 at 10:28
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Bump! The last few weeks saw the passing of Jimmy Giuffre, who, together with Steve Swallow on double bass and Paul Bley on piano, played the craziest and most compelling music in the early sixties, probably in some ways far ahead of the likes of Ornette and Cecil Taylor at that time. The trio split up after one night where they made only 35 cents each. Figures. Chances are the audience couldn't take a drumless (free) jazz band, so one wonders if even the few listeners free jazz had back then did not turn very conservative in their tastes quite quickly. That trio could have and probably did influence the birth of the non-idiomatic impro scene in the UK. Also the vibraphone player Walt Dickerson passed away recently. He played with Sun Ra, among others. Both are free now and one with their music. |
Posted By: Interbeing
Date Posted: May 28 2008 at 08:44
| Unfortunate news. I'm not familiar with the trio you mention but am quite fond of Paul Bley's solo piano's works, particularly Open, Too Love released on ECM ('72); but 'tis far removed from the discussion topic. Sounds like the trio were heading more in the direction of half italian half german improvisational group Gruppo de Improvvisazione Nuova Consonanza whom impacted greatly on the UK improv scene you speak of. If there any samples you know of I would be egger to listen, 'twould be a pleasure to hear Bley unleash into freer avenues. |