lack of metal knowledge in some reviews
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48330
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Topic: lack of metal knowledge in some reviews
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Subject: lack of metal knowledge in some reviews
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:19
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I am rather bothered by the fact that this site collectively does not seem to know much about metal at large. I do not think that Protest The Hero sound anything like System of a Down.... if people knew more about metal than what they are exposed to (by radio or other pop outlets) maybe they would know more about it and be able to make better assertions about metal. I am not trying to say I know everything about metal, but I am rather insulted by a lot of the opinions of the genre and its subsequent sub-genres. It seems that many people are content to listen to tip of the iceburg bands in any genre, and then they will claim they know a lot about said genre. Now I don't claim to know everything about prog, but I know a fair shake, although I am sure a lot of you older more seasoned folks could school me with your expertise. I guess I am just a little (perhaps neurotically) offended by the lack of knowledge that seems apparent on here. When I go to the tech metal section/list of bands, I see a lot of one star reviews for bands that are known in the subgenre of metal for being exemplary. It seems that a lot of old school prog heads or people who DO NOT NORMALLY listen to metal are flexing their prog muscles and sh*tting on certain metal bands because they find no merit in (the music...which is most likely not their "prefered genre) I find it sad that people are turned off by nuances such as growl vocals or rapid fire playing. It is all just music and perhaps should be explored at length like any other musical style before severe knee-jerk responses (ad hominem attacks and one star reviews???? get a life.) are put up. If a band is deemed good enough by the collective to be included in the prog archives, why are we even allowing one star reviews? I think it unjustly skews any decent reviewing. I am not a vindictive, angry person by nature, so I do not find it necessary to "backlash" against a newly popular band and attack relentlessly with senseless reviews and one star-isms. thank you. Rant over. ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Replies:
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:38
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So you've decided that all of PA is out to get metal because of some poorly-written Protest the Hero review? -------------   |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:39
I'm one of the people who doesn't know metal very well at all, but I try to understand individual albums beyond the surface. Mostly, I agree with you, except for
Because prog doesn't = good and because admission isn't a judgment of quality. |
If a band is deemed good enough by the collective to be included in the
prog archives, why are we even allowing one star reviews?Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:43
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Totally agree with:
Prog= Not always good material. Every genre has their good bands and bad bands. Also there are subjective points of view, that also counts. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:51
Think about this one for a while. I like metal quite a bit, but I find Protest the Hero quite intolerable. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:56
1. Bands are not judged by "the collective." 2. Quality is not a criterion for Archive inclusion. 3. If we got rid of one star reviews, two stars would just be the same as one. The archives used to have "zero star" reviews. All that eliminating them did was make one the new zero. Eliminating one would just make two the new one, plus make for a totally ridiculous grading scale of 2-5. 4. One star reviews have nothing to do with quality reviewing. Every quality reviewer on the site has written one-star reviews. ------------- |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 20:56
One of the things about adding bands here is you have to be unbiased.I might think a band is not to my personal taste(hell,I might even think they SUCK),but if they are accepted as progressive metal I will add them,regardless of what I think of their music.
I don't just add bands I like. -------------  |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:05
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so far, all fair and good responses. I see the logic in not eliminating one star reviews...not everyone can have the same opinion, and yes all music deemed good is on Subjective terms, but still at times it seems like people are mudslinging just because they can.....or just because they have not given something a chance??????? Yeah Protest the Hero is not the end all be all of metal, and in fact I have my reservations about them, but they are leagues better what they are getting compared to. (but there are more examples of this type of one star mudslinging in other bands as well- not just Protest The Hero)..... I am just trying to point out the incongruencies in terms of reviewers, reviewing material they have sampled only slightly from. Once something becomes "old hat" or one grows used to the style, it is easier to separate the dross from the pinnacle artists, but again that is all subjective. Like I said, this may be merely neurotic quibbling.... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:07
no. there are some other reviews of some other bands (or merely just one star with no review) in the metal section....but I have not seen much tried and true knowledge about metal on here, point me in the right direction and I will shut up. but for the time being, it seems like there is not a whole lot of insight into the genre at large...but I could be wrong. IT COULD ALL BE SUBJECTIVE...  ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:08
There's a problem with the bolded text (especially that which I enlarged). That is pure opinion.
People can review any album they've heard, from any genre they've heard, in any way they want, so long as the review is appropriate. How well they know the genre is irrelevant. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:10
Ratings without reviews are an entirely different issue. Personally I think anybody who feels strongly enough about an album to rate it * or ***** should be able to write a review for it to justify their position (and we could leave **, ***, and **** as rates w/o review), but ratings without reviews are accepted for every rating at the moment, so complaining about that won't really help you make your point here. |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:14
system of a down=protest the hero? fat f**king chance. this comparison is retarded and something only those who know very little would assert. apples are not oranges....they share trivial similarities at best.... knowing more about a genre does make the review more cogent in terms of comparisons, (worthwhile comparisons at that) and other relevancies.... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:16
well I think we agree that if someone does rate in extremes, perhaps they should share in their opinion. I guess I have never rated anything at one star to justify backing this up......maybe their should be an amendment to that one/five star rating, where you are required to justify said rating.....  ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:19
So if you write a review of their albums, don't compare them to system of a down. It's not really an issue worth worrying about. |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:20
What are you trying to prove? I'm sorry you find us all such musical philistines, but really, do you need to keep on referring to SoaD and PtH? No one is even arguing with you about that or advocating such a comparison. Is a "Prog Metal Specialist" label with your icon what you are looking for? Additionally, what is "knowledge of a genre" in your opinion? Is it just having heard a lot of music from that genre or is it knowing obscure trivia? Oh wait, I almost forgot the third option... is it having to have identical tastes to yourself in regards to which bands sound similar? With all due respect, get over yourself, man. ------------- 
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Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:28
| If I gave an album a 1 star review, (I don't review much, if at all) it would be to warn other people away from a release I found to be sub-standard based on my own specific criteria. Anyone is then free to heed my warning or not.. Prog-Metal bores me to tears so I don't listen to it, but it isn't because I haven't tried it out. I have well over 75 PM releases in my collection covering all the major bases. At the end of that 6 year attempt to enjoy it I gave up. Our reviews and views are not always based on a lack of information. Sometimes they are the result of several years of patient attempts to find new music to enjoy. |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:30
well for starters, a decent exposure (at the minimum) to the genre would help. Obscure trivia only helps someone be higher on the Nerd-o-rama-ter..... no I do not want Prog Metal Specialist as a tag. that is irrelevant. I never claimed that someone had to have identical tastes.....I am merely bitching about those who do not seem to back up their reviews with knowledge and an intelligent reason for having such extremes of opinions. What I can't be annoyed by that? it automatically makes me high-horsed and arrogant? if we do not hold standards of conduct, what will happen next? slippery slope. obviously I hit a nerve somewhere in the discourse, that is too bad, because ironically your reply was just as arrogant......  ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:31
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One of the advantages of this site over other sites is that there is no limit to the number of reviews for any given album, so rather than getting a single opinion, you get many. Therefore not only do you get more opinions, you get a wider choice of opinions.
Not all those opinions will agree and they are not all by people knowledgeable in that genre. Sometimes a review by someone not familiar with the genre can give a different perspective on the music that you wouldn't normally get from an expert - whether you chose to accept those opinions is down to the reader, not the reviewer.
It is unwise to make judgements of any kind based upon a single review, so if you see a 1-star review for an album you must view this with respect to all the other reviews of that album, and if necessary all the other reviews by that reviewer.
Basically, you have to be selective in which reviews you take on board and those which you ignore based upon your own tastes, not those of individual reviewers. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:32
Exactly. For example, I trust Syzygy's reviews far more than The T's, not because Syzygy is a better reviewer than The T, but because he and I agree, whereas Teo (The T) and I, well, have our differences. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:33
Agreed man. I have also noted that not only on the extreme pro metal, but on the traditional prog metal and on the experimental prog metal sub-genres. There are people out there who put all his efforts to ruin well written reviews with unnecessary or not deserved 1 star review. Damn, Dream Theater's Scenes from a Memory and Images and Words have more 5 star reviews than Thick as a Brick or Selling England by the Pound or Wish you Where Here and because of these people that keep sabotaging metal these albums have only a 4.20 grade, when they well deserve a bigger grade than that because of the amount of favorable reviews and the amount of good reviews. Very unfair. Let me quote you one more time
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:34
fair enough. It is not for everyone. Hell, it is not even my main love musically, so why do I care? maybe I am just splitting hairs, as really "one man's trash..........." perhaps it is safe to say that any genre once explored to it's terminal ends, can become tiresome? ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:38
well put. BUT I still see muslinging which is entirely unnecessary. can we chalk this up to immaturity and someone thinking "my taste is better than theirs"???? certainly everyone is guilty of this to a degree, but even when people do agree, they often agree on different terms. I am not the only one who is guilty of being high-horsed about sh*t. ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:39
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CCVP, thanks for seeing "my side".... cheers.
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:42
I dont think that this is the case of prog metal man, after all, its only a couple of decades old and prog rock is 4 decades old. . . i think that the main issue is that prog metal is way to new and is not pleasant to many old and tired ears used to some kind of music that is way softer than metal. Besides, its hard to make an old dog learn old tricks, so if most of today's prog lovers dont like prog metal, its fine: the next generation is liking it and will like it, maybe more than traditional prog rock (there are more reviews on Dream theater albums than on a lot of traditional legends). -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:43
For every poorly written one star review there is one review that awards five stars to an album just because they liked it. I award five stars to albums that have flaws, but they better have mighty few of them, and yet every day I see "This album was great u should by it now the lyrics and vocals kinda suck but teh guitarist is AWESOME!" or, and this one is even worse, "I haven't listened to this yet but Band X is awesome so you now its gonna rok!" Any ad hominem blast is usually removed, as are the idiotically sycophantically reviews that spend no more than a sentence or two talking about the actual music. Welcome to the internet, no one here is a professional no matter how much effort we put in a review. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:44
no sweat man, i love progressive rock more that prog metal, but one thing that gets my nerves are people that put others down only to fit one's own amusement. So i have raged myself many times with this injustice and think its nice to finally find someone that think alike me. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:46
I wouldn't bring age into this *he says checking his profile*  Many of us oldies love Prog Metal, Extreme Metal and Tech Metal as well as the soft old stuff  ------------- What? |
Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:48
| well, I will say that most of my all time favorite Metal albums will most likely never be reviewed in the Archives, but its not the Metal Archives its the Prog Archives....so a lot of Black, Death and Doom albums that I personally consider to be "progressive" and "experimental" in their own right will never make it into the archives either but thats okay, my jaw would literally hit the floor if any reviewer on the prog archives realizes the mind-warping brilliance of Nuclear Death! haha! if they do though then a high-five to them, |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:51
yeah, i know. A lot of old people love metal, but HERE on progarchives there are a lot of people that hate it a keep sabotaging it. And that pisses me off. -------------
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:51
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If you think a band is experimental or progressive enough to fit into one of our 3 pm subs,please propose them in the Suggest section. ------------- |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:51
haha. no sweat man. your previous post was really fair too. perhaps being older like you has made you more level-headed? (jk about the old stuff.....I am no spring chicken myself.) It is refreshing to find more "mature" folks who can find merit in extreme and tech metal....  .------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:52
how does this work? I am sort of new to this board, have lurked for some time..... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:56
Expressing one's negative opinion of any album can't truly be considered "sabotage." As Jake already said, the spiteful reviews are removed - otherwise, it's just different tastes. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:57
| in my case (as an 'oldie'), I actually started my musical journey with metal and blues rock, then came into prog, so I love both.. but that's just me I guess |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:58
true, but there are a lot of "ghost" profiles that exists only to sabotage or to boost album's grades. Thats unfair man, both kinds of ghost profile. -------------
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Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:58
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=43 - Welcome Newbies! and http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=78 - Site Rules And Guidelines  -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:01
Yeah, but spamming ratings without reviews (which is what "saboteurs" do) has almost no effect at all, as the current weighting system gives almost no power to a rating submitted without a review. Also, a large portion of spam ratings are caught, so it's more of a mild irritation than any problem. |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:04
That can be true but only to a degree. Now I'm not extremely keen on metal (I listen to some, though), but it seems that usually the "big" albums are the ones that are really tried to be sabotaged. In these cases, people that show up and just post a few negative reviews don't really do a lot of damage. If any given album has over 100 reviews and a non-collab writes a review, it's minimal change for the album's "score", and does virtually nothing if it is only a rating (sans review). It also seems that people whose accounts have been banned from the Archives or have simply expired (?) still have their reviews/ratings counted, but it still doesn't do much. I suppose those deleted accounts should have their reviews/ratings deleted, too, though. EDIT: ...or just what he said ^^^ -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:06
but they still cause a large problem. Check protest the hero's album a see the amount of ratings without reviews or with REALLY short reviews. Thats an example. -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:09
Agreed, banned or expired accounts should be deleted with their ratings. -------------
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:10
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My history exactly Atavachron,which is why i love prog-metal and it's sub genres.Like Pnoom i tend to value certain reviewers opinions because they have the same taste as me,which is why i feel it's important to rate cds the way i see it.If i feel it's a 2 star that's what it's going to get.It's subjective right? I don't feel i'm sabotaging an artist or album,it's just an opinion. If i see a 1 star for something i really like i kind of roll my eyes and move on.Sometimes it's hard not to take it personally though if it's a cd i love. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:12
Well, you could say their http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=18318 - new album hasn't really balanced out, I guess, but it looks to me that the album has more positive reception than negative... and it's current average of 3.57 is right above " Excellent addition to any prog music collection" . Sounds fine to me. And http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=18317 - Kezia has very favorable reviews. -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:13
me too -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:14
Actually, the vast majority of the ratings without reviews on that album are four and five stars, and the one star reviews are longer than a number of the five stars. Hell there is literally a four-sentence (if you could call the last one a sentence) review that is one of the most useless things I've seen. Actually, pretty much all the reviews on that page are really short, with the exception of the one PR review (Chris'). |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:17
yeah, guess that PtH was not a good example, but Dream Theater is. Their albums have more 5 star reviews than Thick as a Brick, Selling England by the Pound and Wish You Where Here (in absolute numbers) but its grade is greatly lower. PS: here a mean Scenes from a Memory and Images and Words -------------
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Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:20
What?! Both are on the Progressive Metal http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=19 - Key Albums page and have a 4.20 and 4.21 average. It's really not that big of a deal if their averages aren't quite as high as "classic" prog albums. They have only existed for 10-15 years! Quite an achievement to have such a good average! -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:26
true, but other key albums are not present on the page such as Fates Warning Awaken the Guardian (said to be the 1st prog metal album) and other bands that are not as known as Dream Theater such as Pain of Salvation have better grades because people don't have such a reactionary feeling against bands they don't know. So DT ends up being the judas of the story, receiving many unfair reviews because its better known. That i can see better in other prog forums where people don't know prog metal: there they associate prog metal = Dream Theater. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:29
sure, in fact I was criticized once for giving a 'negative' review (though I awarded it 3 stars) to a popular artist's current album because I "didn't understand it" .. thing is, do we really only want someone to review a CD who thoroughly knows and follows a band? Is that healthy and really what is best? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:30
Not knowing is no crime, the problem is reviewing without knowledge based in prejudices, that's why I never rated a Dream Theater album, I don't like them enough to care to investigate.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:33
if only there were more people like you Iván . . . . . -------------
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Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:34
First of all, Pain of Salvation's most rated "Key Album" still has less than 1/2 of the reviews of Images and Words. And Scenes has over 600. The number of reviews does make a difference (of about 200-400 for those examples) that can spell a major change in the album's rating. You also must keep in mind that the first prog metal album is not necessarily the best; those two are mutually exclusive. -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:40
Yeah, i know. Just wished that the albums had a more "fair" number rating and not a symbolic position due to the number of reviews. About the Fates Warning, i still think that it deserves some kind of merit position, like Operation: Mindcrime. You know, outside the top 20 and with the sayings: "essentials albums to the building of the genre" -------------
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Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:48
Hmm, I don't think I've ever seen that labeling (the "essentials"). Maybe something with my browser(s)? Anyways, if that is there, then that label would be fitting for the first prog metal album. @ the direction this thread has taken -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:52
that labeling don't exist, i just think that it would be fitting for prog metal and extreme prog metal. -------------
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Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:56
Well, let's expand upon that. Maybe an "improvement to the site" topic should be started regarding an "essentials to the genre" label for different albums? It could easily be done for more than just metal - all genres. But then again, that might get shot down by arguments saying that's what ratings are for... Whatchoo think CCVP? -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:05
well, i still think ratings are essential. Essential albuns will ever exist for every genre, but the ratings would be for top rating (top 50 / 100 / 200 / etc) and different rating between the essentials. For example: Operation: Mindcrime is (for me) a better album than Awaken the Guardian, but Awaken the Guardian have a better grade. That is because Mindcrime is better known that Awaken so Operation have more reactionary reviews that Awaken. -------------
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:07
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Its Progarchives, not Metal-archives. Try reading some Prog reviews on there |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:08
agreed. ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:10
ironically I prefer a lot of the reviews on here over the Metal Archives reviews...... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:10
but is it too much to ask fair prog metal reviews? after all, PROGRESSIVE metal is progressive after all. -------------
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:11
That is my point actually. |
Posted By: ClassicRocker
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:11
I think I see what you are getting at. Well, I wasn't really thinking another set of ratings (for essentials). I was thinking more of a tag at the top of the album page for the important/most influential albums. Something that looks like the tag/big label at the top of PT's http:///www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=14488 - Fear Of A Blank Planet page (...and disregard the fact that Phideaux's album is placed above it in the 2007 chart )-------------
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:13
 Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource Metal is but one small subgenre of this whole thing. Well, Shakes, actually it's three!!! Lame-o, I say. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:18
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I think it would be awesome to give some sort of recognition to the pioneers of prog-metal.Fates Warning especially,but Psychotic Waltz,Watchtower and other that are perhaps even more obscure than Fates. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:18
What you mean by small? its the fastest growing genre of prog rock and to ignore the importance of prog metal to the keeping of prog rock on the scene is the same as to close your eyes to the mid day sun on the middle of Sahara. Besides its the only sub-genre to attract attention to prog since neo prog on the 80's. In fact, i was drawn back to prog because of prog metal. Since my father thinks that prog REALLY died on the 80's (he don't like Marilion, etc) i also thought that for some time, until i discovered it was not dead by prog metal. -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:20
OMG, can't believe i forgot Waltz and Watchtower!!! I love them, but forgot them  -------------
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:49
hell yeah, I am behind this 200%. Psychotic Waltz is one of my all-time faves for sure. they brought it to a new level....in my opinion of course..... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:56
Prog in the classic sense never died, but it's been on life support ever since that stinker known as Tales from Topographic Oceans  It's children, neo and metal, are doing all they can to resurrect the failures of Tales (a.k.a. the cheesy overindulgence that gave prog a bad name in the first place). |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:58
WHAT? Tales form topographic oceans ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -------------
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 00:04
I disagree. Its probably my favorite Yes album. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 00:05
Me too KoL -------------
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 00:08
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I'm also upset by the lack of recognition prog metal gets. My friend who's into classic prog and fusion really hates the vocals and just isn't a fan in general. Its upsetting because other than that he has really good taste. There's a lot of bad metal though, which is a shame, and is probably why a lot of the bad crap about it is coming from....
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 00:20
Depends on how you define prog. Most of the really good bands considered prog these days are prog-esque at best. The bands that are truly prog in the strictest sense are the retro and neo bands, and they certainly fall well short of the 70s bands. The only truly prog music coming out these days that arguably rivals 70s prog is prog metal, but the overload of cheese makes so much of it unlistenable. I guess my point is that the good prog bands today are not *just* prog bands, they are bands that mix proggy attributes (and even prog music) with other genres. Pure prog is a thing of the past. Also, my Tales from Topographic Oceans comment was a joke, even though I do feel that way about the album. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 00:34
What's lame?
That PM is divided into three sub-genres here now? ------------- |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:05
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Man , you should all realize that Prog archives was meant to be a prog rock site.Now if for unknown reasons bands like Kreator(as an example) end up in the "tech-extreme-metal" category.Thats another issue.
Growling vocals cant be compared to angelical- Jon Andersonish-singing.
If you want metal go to a metal site , you ll never get ...And Justice for all in prog archives , as an example.But it can be one of the most reviewed records on a true metal page
You gotta realize it when you see the name of the pageIT`S PROG ARCHIVES , NOT PUNK ARCHIVES OR DEATH ARCHIVES.By the way I like that advise "progressive metal with a soul" its like they are taking all the blame.
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:14
yeah, but some would say the definition of "prog" is music that progresses. some metal has progressed, hence it should be included if only by definition. And why be so exclusive? .....was prog meant to be narrow-minded? hardly. ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:15
Are you seriously accusing this site of being close-minded in its acceptance process? If so, , you have much to learn. |
Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:23
NO. do not put words in my mouth. (or my post- quit projecting onto my posts). LOL at your prog king attitude. anyway, re-read the post, will ya. the answer is right there. imagine how those old school prog bands felt when they were getting swept under the rug of being taken seriously because music at large was not ready for them, (and was being exclusive and "narrow-minded".....maybe that is something that happens when you turn into an old proghead, you refuse to see "new" music as progressive. Is that your problem?) The Residents had to buy commercial air time to get their music out to the world..........for instance. who was ready for them? I think it is downright hilarious when a noob posts somewhere and the "old guard" (as it were) gets their panties in a bunch and jumps to logically erroneous conclusions, fumbling over themselves to PROOVE something to the noob......  the main problem I have with boards like this is that they are full of nerds who argue for the sake of argument, you need to get out of that mindset of needing to be "right" all the time......I have no beef with you. You are just some online self-appointed referee, but everyone is tough online, I wonder what you are really like? ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:29
"Pure" prog bands:
Anekdoten (could be considred prog-esque by your definition, honestly they kinda regressed to sounding classic prog like with A Time of Day, but Nucleus, Gravity, and From Within are so progressive)
Dream Theater (prog metal which led the entire genre with their early albums)
Ephel Duath (prog metal mixed with jazz, but Pain Necessary to Know is waaaay too experimental for the description to be left at that)
Fantomas
Green Carnation (experimental black metal....but their newer stuff is kinda....ehhhhh...)
The Mars Volta
Opeth
Sleepytime Gorilla Museum
(Guess alot of it is metal....at least what I could think of atm)
I think the main problem though its that the prog bands of old were the ones that actually progressed and pushed bounds and so "The bands that are truly prog in the strictest sense are the retro and neo bands, and they certainly fall well short of the 70s bands." are NOT really prog at all because they are not doing anything new at all.
So its hard for there to be too many amazing prog bands anymore cause there's so few things that can be done to progress anymore (that's why Advant-garde and noise rock are really the only types of music which have potential to progress anymore....
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:29
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Posted By: Luke. J
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:31
I accept your opinion, but I feel the need to clarify that you can not put all metal in one giant basket. So, not all metal has the "growling vocals". Progressive metal, or whatever it is split to now, for example adds the complexity of 70's prog rock (or art rock, as it used to be called) to their music. However, I too think that the Extreme/Technical Metal category has some bands I can not find any relation to progressive rock.
And, last point: If you don't like growling vocals, then stay away from those bands, like I do it with psychedelic rock. Even if there are on the same side, the growling of some bands will not scare away your Close to the Edge.
Maybe I should add here that I like metal, alternative rock and, believe it or not, progressive rock..
Edit: So many fast people.. excuse me, but I started writing this at a time where it was the most actual post here
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:33
indeed. this is the type of mentality I do NOT LIKE. what was already discussed in this thread: just cause you like/do not like it, it will not be UNIVERSALLY true. What if I find growl vocals angelic? what if I think angels are dark distorted fallen creatures? it's all subjective.....but that is just ridiculous^^^^^^ ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:37
Up until this point, this was a *miraculously* good thread, with most posts making a lot of sense from each side... but there's always somebody that has to bring their "enlightment" into the discussion....
And maybe that's what the thread creator also has in mind: metal is the one that most times get the "crap" treatment...
And the sad part is, crimson87, that "crap" you said reflects your frustration. Just weak frustration at the fact that a site has metal albums on it and that goes against your preconceived ideas, which by the way are so weak that you feel threatened by metal's presence in PA, therefore you have to call it names, instead of doing the wisest thing:
NOT LISTENING TO IT AND NOT READING ABOUT IT.
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:37
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I did not mean for this to fall into a cyclic argument rehashing age-old semantics and definitions, it was merely meant as light criticism...... bravo to those who listen to everything, there should be no limits in the world of music...... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:38
I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked if what the words of your post implied was really what you thought.
cite examples. If you're referring to me telling you that you have much to learn if you think this site is close-minded when it comes to accepting bands, that's not a prog king attitude, that's a "if you reallly thought that, you would've been very wrong" attitude.
On the contrary, I vastly prefer this decade to the 1970s (well, not vastly but significantly).
I'm not sure how this is relevant 
Exactly what are you talking about?
Oh no, people on a discussion board are actually discussing music
I don't need to be right all of the time. That said, the point of a discussion board is to discuss things, and when you start a topic on something, you can't get upset when people debate the point you made. That's called a double standard and it's rather ridiculous. Also amusing is your double standard where you get mad at me for making a logical conclusion from the implications of your post, yet you then make a very erroneous judgment of my character based on a few online posts on a confined topic.
Now this is completely irrelevant, but I'm rather shy, I have poor social skills, I have a wry sense of humor, and I juggle a lot. ALSO, A GENERAL NOTE FOR EVERYONE WHO USES THIS OR ANY FORUM: When you type something (and say something, too, this applies to real life as well), it has implications that might not be explicitly stated. Especially on a forum, you have the ability to make sure these implications are the implications you want to give off. Thus you cannot get mad when people not only read the literal meaning of the words you post but the implications of them as well. |
Posted By: Plankowner
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:40
aw man, wish somebody warned me about it 
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:41
precisely. I was just trying to open a dialogue. I am on tons of metal boards too. the opposite is true on them: most of them are too "narrow-minded" to like prog. Irony? yes. scenes get far too insular and just chase their own tale. they need to break out of that mindset.... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:43
The fact that people here are not JUST metal fans or JUST symphonic fans makes for a great body of reviews, as there's little of the fanboyism that can be found in metal archives or symphonic-bands' websites or any other site that narrows its content to one single genre....
Besides, check most people's reviews list here.... everyone that has a lot of reviews will have at least reviewwed a few albums outside of their "comfort zone"... we are open minded by nature here in PA... and , we're open minded enough to, once we know where our heart goes, stop reviewing what we will probably never like..... Being open minded also means letting other people love that what you don't like....
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:44
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Pnoom! you seem to have troubles interpreting my posts? is english not your first language? just curious, because some of your replies have really taken my posts and my original intent and really "ran with them"....... no offense, but you are way off base.... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:46
 brilliant |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:48
The founder and owners of this site saw fit to include prog metal here,and also approved the split of prog metal into 3 different sub-genres.
If you don't like it,ignore it,and stop acting like an immature child. ------------- |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:49
Well how about making your points clearer then.
There you go again, making wrong assumptions about me. English is my first language and, as it happens, I am quite proficient in it.
Only as far as they came along with me.
none taken. Please do explain your posts in English that conveys both the proper literal meaning and implications next time, and I will do a better job of understanding it. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:50
Let's all try to be civil here,this thread is going downhill fast. ------------- |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:51
I don't know about Avalanche's view on our debate, but I'm finding him perfectly civil and I believe I am responding in kind. Especially considering how frustrated I am, since we seem to agree on many points. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:54
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I wasn't pointing fingers at you or Av.One member,who made only one post in this thread,just steered the thread in a negative direction. ------------- |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:58
Ah, ok. It just seemed that since that was half dominating the thread (along with Crimson's comment), it might've inspired your comment at least partially. And my last post probably was somewhat excessive. The frustration showing through.  |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 02:31
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Let's not sell Metal-Archives too short just yet as there are quite a few people who enjoy progressive rock there. But anyway, metal is a schismatic genre as it is and it will always create controversy, so I guess I'm used to it. Hearing people dismiss it as "screaming music" or "noise" doesn't bother me anymore. Plus, I don't pay attention to reviews here at all. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 02:35
+1, except I do pay attention to reviews
I too have learnt not to bother with people that are highly ignorant of metal and it's sub genres, style etc , because I simply know they are missing out on music that can express things that other genres simply cannot. ------------- 
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Posted By: avalanchemaster
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 03:54
haha. I just replied to a post of yours in the Kayo Dot thread, I think we have more in common than you think, maybe we are just misunderstanding each other. My main point is that Metal is oft misunderstoood and villainized for its agressive (blue collar) roots, and as such has met with staunch refusal towards its legitimacy as music (even in terms of "prog" metal). those who deem it "noise" will not look past these trappings to find that it does have something to offer. (mind you that i do not think of "noise" as a negative term though, in fact I love noise/avant garde/deterministic music.....but that is for another thread) sadly the truth remains that there are detractors and denegrators of any artistic expression who will do their best to limit it's expression, because for whatever reason they question its validity. If we limit music to definitions and limits of logic, we are forgetting that music is merely an expression of emotion on a mathematical and abstract plane.....and every human has those base instincts in common, different genres of music are merely like different dialects of the same universal language, some know the different colloquialisms, others refuse to hear any language outside of their native tongue. how sad. I for one try to understand as much as I can, it all comes from the same source of inspiration, and should as such be given a chance (keeping in mind that not all soldiers of said genre/dialect are good at speaking the language) but we all have different ears, and that is what makes us unique in our subjectivity, I just wish people were not so negative/vindictive and reactionary about music that they do not like....... does that clear anything up? I really just love music and want to see it fairly represented.... ------------- http://www.amazon.com/gp/shops/storefront/index.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&sellerID=AP |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 04:06
Not more than I think, I've realized all along that we mostly agree. Honestly, our argument over whatever it was initially (I honestly forget what) degenerated into semantics. Gah.
An unfair attack on it, for sure.
There will always be close-minded elitists; there's not much you can do about them.
I still completely agree.
Here is where I disagree (and where I believe our argument began), but I might still be misreading you, so I'm not going to pursue it.
Yes it does indeed, thanks. |