Fripp on Guitar Technicalities
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Topic: Fripp on Guitar Technicalities
Posted By: Unsouled
Subject: Fripp on Guitar Technicalities
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 23:32
So this talentless non-singing guitarist practiced his butt off for 12 hours a day (similar to virtuosos such as Vai) to hone the technical side of his guitar playing in order to remove any sort of barrier it might have held between him and the music.
Mirrors, Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Fracture, Frame by Frame, Frakctured, The World's My Oyster Soup paino solo..... so his ability to sustain speedy and precise guitar lines as well as hop miles across his fret board in a split second have been displayed over the years. However, I must admit my Fripp experience is contained within the King Crimson sphere. Thus I've never seen him play 20 note-per-second alternative picking lines.
Which, apparently, is something he is quite capable of. Or something close to that. Scattered reading and sparse hints here and there have sparked my curiosity - is Fripp able to completely shred solos? For some reason, this question seemed worthy of a forum post to me.
Edit: So I decided adding on to this post would be easier than rewording it.
1. I am not judging or criticizing Robert Fripp in any way. 2. I recognize RF's accomplishments in many areas of his work, such as King Crimson, Frippertronics-->Soundscapes, Guitar Craft, and guitar form/technique. 3. I do NOT believe shredding to be any sort of "benchmark" or something to strive to be able to do. 4. I DO believe Fripp is able to shred, although he chooses not to for many reasons which have been mentioned in this thread. 5. I am just asking if he is able to shred, because, as Avantgardehead put it, it would be "nice to see."
Oh and 6., my question has been answered. Just warding off the flames.
Edit 2: Turns out he goes pretty crazy on the Elephant Talk DVD, during the Thrak improv a little bit before Adrian takes an electric screwdriver to his Stratocaster.
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Replies:
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 23:34
So this talentless non-singing guitarist |
You lost me right about there.
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Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 23:41
Unsouled wrote:
So this talentless non-singing guitarist practiced his butt off for 12 hours a day - is Fripp able to completely shred solos?
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this is gonna be controversial
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 23:53
Honestly, I have no idea where the OP was going with that. First you call him talentless, then mention some of his great guitar work, only to say he needs to shred. So...a guitarist is talentless if he or she plays with a measure of taste? I guess David Gilmour, Eric Clapton, and Jimi suck too?
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 00:23
He can shred very well, actually. I think it was his second time on G3 when he brought a King Crimson with him and he was going crazy. He would be playing this super-fast progression without even looking at the fretboard...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 00:34
i like how everyone jumped on the opening sentense and completely ignored everything else. I would help but unfortunately, there really are no videos on youtube (and in extention the internet) that show Fripp shredding.....
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 00:49
DJPuffyLemon wrote:
i like how everyone jumped on the opening sentense and completely ignored everything else. I would help but unfortunately, there really are no videos on youtube (and in extention the internet) that show Fripp shredding..... |
What else do you expect on a prog forum when somebody calls an icon "talentless."
Also, seeing as the rest of the post was nearly incomprehensible, that also made things more difficult for those trying to respond to the thread.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 00:52
Shredding is child's play when you've developed a New Standard tuning, and have played the guitar parts on Discipline.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 00:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o-FP0m_TNI
There's a pretty good alternate picking thing near the beginning.
I know there's more somewhere...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 01:51
Can't say that I've seen the man shred in KC or solo but I enjoy what he does, I appreciate it and I do enjoy his soundscapes as well. The man has a wicked sense of humor and is comfortable with speaking in public.
Icon, Legend call him what you will but he is in the top 100 guitarists and will likely still be after he stops playing.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 06:24
Pnoom! wrote:
DJPuffyLemon wrote:
i like how everyone jumped on the opening sentense and completely ignored everything else. I would help but unfortunately, there really are no videos on youtube (and in extention the internet) that show Fripp shredding..... |
What else do you expect on a prog forum when somebody calls an icon "talentless."
Also, seeing as the rest of the post was nearly incomprehensible, that also made things more difficult for those trying to respond to the thread.
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I think the original poster meant that Fripp began with no talent for playing the guitar, but practised like hell to become better.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 06:33
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 07:36
Looked like some people didn't even get past the "talentless" word to even read the rest of sentence. ![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) My big question would then be how do you define "shredding"?
My impression is that it's playing really fast, sloppiness be damned. When you shred paper, don't you make a neatly sliced mess of it?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 09:37
Slartibartfast wrote:
My big question would then be how do you define "shredding"? |
I think it's the fast neoclassical type of lead guitar playing Ritchie Blackmore made popular.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 10:14
Haven't really listened to Deep Purple, so it's not really a frame of reference I can latch on to. Big Steve Morse fan though. Anyone qualify him as a shredder?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 10:20
waa waaa waaa waaa whaaaaaaa, digga digga digga digga digga digga digga?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 10:34
Slartibartfast wrote:
Haven't really listened to Deep Purple, so it's not really a frame of reference I can latch on to. Big Steve Morse fan though. Anyone qualify him as a shredder? |
I don't see how is anything but a shredder, that was almost a confusing question to be honest. The man blisters through incredible alternate picked lines with almost no effort, that is definitely a shredder ![Big%20smile](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif)
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 10:35
As for Fripp shredding, yes, footage I've seen of him has shown him alternate pick at virtuosic speed.
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 10:36
Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 12:30
Admittedly I wrote that post while tired with an exhausted brain. Let me explain.
Mr. Bob Fripp has stated in interviews (which can be found on the Elephant Talk wiki) that he believes he has not inherited any "natural abilities or qualities" when it comes to playing the guitar, and that his technical skill and sustain is a result of sheer effort and commitment. However, to say "talentless" was an obvious mistake, as "talented" has become synonymous with "skilled" and "accomplished" in modern culture.
Anyways....
By "shredding," I was referring to playing many notes as fast as possible, such as in "20 note-per-second alternative picking lines." I wholly understand that this does not "need" to be done, nor is it "ideal," or "preferential." I ask this question out of simple curiosity, as it is one of the only things I haven't seen him do.
....I am, if anything, a complete Fripp/KCrimson nut. Fripp's development and work with NST and soundscapes, guitar craft, simply what he does and how he does it, are astounding. It appears I've led some to the misconception that if he can't shred, I don't recognize this. This is not the case. I'll get around to rewording the first post in order to make this more clear....
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 16:25
Unsouled wrote:
Admittedly I wrote that post while tired with an exhausted brain. Let me explain.
Mr.
Bob Fripp has stated in interviews (which can be found on the Elephant
Talk wiki) that he believes he has not inherited any "natural abilities or qualities" when
it comes to playing the guitar, and that his technical skill and
sustain is a result of sheer effort and commitment. However, to say
"talentless" was an obvious mistake, as "talented" has become
synonymous with "skilled" and "accomplished" in modern culture.
Anyways....
By
"shredding," I was referring to playing as many notes as fast as
possible, such as in "20 note-per-second alternative picking lines." I
wholly understand that this does not "need" to be done, nor is it
"ideal," or "preferential." I ask this question out of simple
curiosity, as it is one of the only things I haven't seen him do.
....I
am, if anything, a complete Fripp/KCrimson nut. Fripp's development
and work with NST and soundscapes, guitar craft, simply what he does
and how he does it, are astounding. It appears I've led some to the
misconception that if he can't shred, I don't recognize this. This is
not the case. I'll get around to rewording the first post in order to
make this more clear....
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Hmmm, how fast is it possible to play as many notes?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 17:52
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 18:12
I remember seeing an absolutely mindblowing solo on youtube several months ago where Fripp was playing some of the fastest, most complex guitar work I've ever seen and half the time he wasn't even bothering to look at the fretboard. Unfortunately, it appears that it has been removed from YouTube.
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![](http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/rileydog22/p159-1.jpg)
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 18:28
And re: the original post, I think the reason Fripp doesn't "shred," per se, is because he's opposed to it. Shredding tends to be sterile, emotionless playing in which guitarists add more notes because, well, they can. Fripp is far more interested in expression than technique.
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![](http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/rileydog22/p159-1.jpg)
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:43
Apparently OP has never heard Fripp's guitar work on Cirkus or LTIA 1. Pure shredding those are,
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 21:44
Those are both very technical pieces, but those are not "shredding" pieces.
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![](http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/rileydog22/p159-1.jpg)
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 00:57
Unsouled wrote:
3 seconds
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Thanks, that completely clears things up. ![Big%20smile](smileys/smiley4.gif)
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 01:06
rileydog22 wrote:
I remember seeing an absolutely mindblowing solo on youtube several months ago where Fripp was playing some of the fastest, most complex guitar work I've ever seen and half the time he wasn't even bothering to look at the fretboard. Unfortunately, it appears that it has been removed from YouTube. |
I have seen the same video too, but ask any like MikeEnRegalia, MisterProg2112 or me etc, and we will easily be able to tell you there are far more complex guitar solos than that one. I'm not saying it wasn't a good solo, it was a great solo, but in terms of what has actually been done in the field of shred guitar, it wasn't that complex.
EDIT: BTW this may be the video you're referring to http://youtube.com/watch?v=4o-FP0m_TNI - http://youtube.com/watch?v=4o-FP0m_TNI
In all honesty, that was one of the most robotic and unemotional shred solos I've seen, especially compared to the likes of Satriani, Vai, Shawn Lane, Petrucci et al.
And I don't really see a great deal of complexity there, sure it's fast and technical, but complex it ain't.
If you thought that was complex, go look up up the 100000000+ way more complex guitar solos on youtube and you will find some stuff that will seriously make your jaw drop and you will probably see my point about the Fripp solo not being complex at all.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 02:29
rileydog22 wrote:
And re: the original post, I think the reason Fripp doesn't "shred," per se, is because he's opposed to it. Shredding tends to be sterile, emotionless playing in which guitarists add more notes because, well, they can. Fripp is far more interested in expression than technique. |
You've pretty much contradicted yourself greatly. In one post you speak of the fast virtuosic solo that he plays, and then you say he is opposed to shredding ![Confused](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)
Whether or not you or someone else finds shredding/ particular shred solos emotional/expressive or not is highly subjective, and there is nothing to say shredding cannot be a form of musical expression and once you come to a certain understanding of the virtuoso guitar scene like myself, you can make a clear distinction between the guys that learnt virtuosic technique for its expressive purpose, and those that have no idea how to make their solos mean anything.
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 02:34
HughesJB4 wrote:
I have seen the same video too, but ask any like MikeEnRegalia,
MisterProg2112 or me etc, and we will easily be able to tell you there
are far more complex guitar solos than that one. I'm not saying it
wasn't a good solo, it was a great solo, but in terms of what has
actually been done in the field of shred guitar, it wasn't that complex.
EDIT: BTW this may be the video you're referring to http://youtube.com/watch?v=4o-FP0m_TNI - http://youtube.com/watch?v=4o-FP0m_TNI
In all honesty, that was one of the most robotic and unemotional
shred solos I've seen, especially compared to the likes of Satriani,
Vai, Shawn Lane, Petrucci et al.
And I don't really see a great deal of complexity there, sure it's fast and technical, but complex it ain't.
If you thought that was complex, go look up up the 100000000+ way
more complex guitar solos on youtube and you will find some stuff that
will seriously make your jaw drop and you will probably see my point
about the Fripp solo not being complex at all. |
^ Obviously, but for that to come out of a guy like Fripp is pretty amazing. I think many people knew he had it in him, but it's always nice to see these things.
Complexity means crap to me, anyway. ![Cool](smileys/smiley16.gif)
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Posted By: Cosmic Messenger
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 09:32
Why would you want to hear 20-note-per-second alternative picking lines, anyway? Go listen to Liquid Tension Experiment or Cacophony if that is what you want.
I fail to understand why complexity and technical prowess is an issue, even. The fact of the matter is that Mr. Fripp's taste is impeccable, his compositional skills are superb, his ingenuity and individuality as a guitarist are unmatched, and his innovations (not only his actualy playing, but developing a new standard tuning and the Frippertronics system) really set him above most shredders.
Guys that can play 20 notes per second like John Petrucci, Yngwie Malmsteen, Jason Becker and Steve Vai may be better technicians than Fripp, but that is no reason to call him out on the subject, especially when Fripp has them all beat by at least thirty six miles when you take in consideration just how far he pushed the sonic lines with his music in King Crimson.
Playing 20 notes per second is not being "progressive", not to say that Fripp concerns himself with striving to be "progressive", anyhow. Playing 20 notes per second is w**kery, and I am, personally, glad that Fripp does not shred in the usual sense of the word.
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Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 12:30
I've already addressed a couple of these, but it seems like my earlier post has been lost in the mumbo-jumbo.
"Talent" refers "natural abilities or qualities," and Fripp believes he has none of these when it comes to guitar playing. However, "talented" has become synonymous with "skilled" and "accomplished," so my wording was a mistake.
1800iareyay: I did not say he needed to shred, I asked whether or not he could, for no reason other than curiosity.
jammun: rileydog22 is correct, there is no shredding in those pieces. The guitar lines are quick, though.
Cosmic Messenger: A big sigh to you, because I've already acknowledged that I don't "want" to hear them per say, but rather I would like to know if anyone has seen him perform them.
Avantgardehead's statement is exactly what I was trying, and failing, to say: "I think many people knew he had it in him, but it's always
nice to see these things."
Anyways, if someone still doesn't understand what I mean by shredding, here's an example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pYauTCAbvh8
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 13:42
Unsouled wrote:
jammun: rileydog22 is correct, there is no shredding in those pieces. The guitar lines are quick, though.
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Yes not shredding in what I understand to be the meaning of that word, but certainly evidence that Fripp would be capable of anything he chose to do.
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 13:45
Unsouled wrote:
I've already addressed a couple of these, but it seems like my earlier post has been lost in the mumbo-jumbo.
"Talent" refers "natural abilities or qualities," and Fripp believes he has none of these when it comes to guitar playing. However, "talented" has become synonymous with "skilled" and "accomplished," so my wording was a mistake.
1800iareyay: I did not say he needed to shred, I asked whether or not he could, for no reason other than curiosity.
jammun: rileydog22 is correct, there is no shredding in those pieces. The guitar lines are quick, though.
Cosmic Messenger: A big sigh to you, because I've already acknowledged that I don't "want" to hear them per say, but rather I would like to know if anyone has seen him perform them.
Avantgardehead's statement is exactly what I was trying, and failing, to say: "I think many people knew he had it in him, but it's always
nice to see these things."
Anyways, if someone still understand what I mean by shredding, here's an example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pYauTCAbvh8
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Wow.
So you think that shredding = good guitar playing? Real guitar playing comes from the soul, it has feeling, and even if you did play a soulful solo at shredding speed, you couldn't distinguish it anyway, so what's the point? All shredding is is practising scales, arpeggios and melodic lines over and over again with a metronome: what musical skill does that involve? None at all if you ask me, it's not entertaining, it's self-indulgent. Fripp knows this, so he doesn't do it.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 15:42
Sigh.
No, I do not think that shredding = good guitar playing as the end all, be all. Why does asking whether or not anyone has seen Bobby shred spark so much hostility?
I am not questioning his skill (musical or technical), or trying to downplay any of his accomplishments. Let me quote myself: "....I am, if anything, a complete Fripp/KCrimson nut. Fripp's
development and work with NST and soundscapes, guitar craft, simply
what he does and how he does it, are astounding. It appears I've led
some to the misconception that if he can't shred, I don't recognize
this."
I am simply wondering if he HAS, and I have very little doubt he is able to, given what he's done already.
How can I make this clearer? Fripp has inspired me more than any other individual in music. I am not judging him in any sort of way by asking if he can shred. All I want to know is if anyone has seen him do it, and that question has already been answered in this thread. At this point I feel like I have to defend myself because of misinterpretations (and my lack of clarity has obviously been a reason for them). There is no criticism here, simply curiosity.
Edit: Edited the first post.
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 17:06
ha ha i have to laugh at how some people have interpreted unsouled's posts.
I thought it was quite evident from the opening page that the thread starter doesnt care for shredding and only wanted to know if fripp had ever played anything like that because he certainly hinted that he could.
he was curious, as I was when i looked at the thread, to see if Fripp ever performed something like a shred solo. back off people![LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 19:50
Do i sound too serious? because i don't intend to. meh, i have more important things to worry about than this, i just felt like having a go because this guy called Fripp untalented.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 19:56
Are you serious?
Please tell me you aren't serious.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 19:58
"Talent" refers "natural abilities or qualities," and Fripp
believes he has none of these when it comes to guitar playing.
However, "talented" has become synonymous with "skilled" and
"accomplished," so my wording was a mistake. |
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 04 2008 at 22:27
My point exactly. cool vids though, i have a renewed (not that it ever lagged really) respect for the fripp. Way to go Bob!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 03:12
kibble_alex wrote:
Unsouled wrote:
I've already addressed a couple of these, but it seems like my earlier post has been lost in the mumbo-jumbo.
"Talent" refers "natural abilities or qualities," and Fripp believes he has none of these when it comes to guitar playing. However, "talented" has become synonymous with "skilled" and "accomplished," so my wording was a mistake.
1800iareyay: I did not say he needed to shred, I asked whether or not he could, for no reason other than curiosity.
jammun: rileydog22 is correct, there is no shredding in those pieces. The guitar lines are quick, though.
Cosmic Messenger: A big sigh to you, because I've already acknowledged that I don't "want" to hear them per say, but rather I would like to know if anyone has seen him perform them.
Avantgardehead's statement is exactly what I was trying, and failing, to say: "I think many people knew he had it in him, but it's always nice to see these things."
Anyways, if someone still understand what I mean by shredding, here's an example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pYauTCAbvh8
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Wow.
So you think that shredding = good guitar playing? Real guitar playing comes from the soul, it has feeling, and even if you did play a soulful solo at shredding speed, you couldn't distinguish it anyway, so what's the point? All shredding is is practising scales, arpeggios and melodic lines over and over again with a metronome: what musical skill does that involve? None at all if you ask me, it's not entertaining, it's self-indulgent. Fripp knows this, so he doesn't do it.
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This post is so contradictory amd misinformed it makes me laugh to be honest.
Saying shredding is mindless and boring yet defending someone who clearly has been known to play shred solo is highly hypocritical.
"Real guitar playing comes from the soul, it has feeling, and even if you did play a soulful solo at shredding speed, you couldn't distinguish it anyway, so what's the point? All shredding is is practising scales, arpeggios and melodic lines over and over again with a metronome:what musical skill does that involve? None at all if you ask me, it's not entertaining, it's self-indulgent. Fripp knows this, so he doesn't do it."
That didn't make a lot of sense to be totally honest. Your definition of shredding is not even close to the ball park of the correct definition. What you described is running through technical exercises. Shredding means to play in a virtuosic manner on guitar, and has nothing to do with whether it's musical to you or not.
"you couldn't distinguish it anyway" a typical example of someone who has minimal or zero musical ear training. I happen to find many shred solos to be widely varied and can hear the differences between what techniques are employed in the solo, and why certain phrases are played to give different emotions.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6jBJUUogVyU - http://youtube.com/watch?v=6jBJUUogVyU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Jit_KXxhX4 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Jit_KXxhX4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G3gHtPLXQOI - http://youtube.com/watch?v=G3gHtPLXQOI
Here are 3 different shred solos (well one is also mainly a song), and I challenge anyone to tell me these 3 solos A: Played using a variety of different techniques B Not even in the same modes and key signatures and styles can sound 'indistinguishable'. Ask MikeEnRegalia, or some of the other shred guitarist on this forum, and they will agree whole heartedly shred is a valid form of musical expression.
If the world revolved around one person that could just univerally say 'all shred is the same etc, can't tell it apart etc no emotion etc', maybe we would have to accept it, but in future don't make it sound like people have this universal idea we must all believe, because I think I should be able to feel free to understand and believe in the emotive power of shred guitar.
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Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 06:19
I was listening to Dream Theater's Train of Thought yesterday, and Petrucci's shredding was a mix of schizophrenia and tension to me. I was literally gritting my teeth through a lot of it. It's been a while since I listened to that album... it was almost completely new to me. Certainly the first listen-through since my musical ears have matured.
Anyways, this thread has been de-railed, and the original question has been answered. Keep or nuke? I can modify the title if it's to be about shredding.
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 09:29
HughesJB4 wrote:
kibble_alex wrote:
Unsouled wrote:
I've already addressed a couple of these, but it seems like my earlier post has been lost in the mumbo-jumbo.
"Talent" refers "natural abilities or qualities," and Fripp believes he has none of these when it comes to guitar playing. However, "talented" has become synonymous with "skilled" and "accomplished," so my wording was a mistake.
1800iareyay: I did not say he needed to shred, I asked whether or not he could, for no reason other than curiosity.
jammun: rileydog22 is correct, there is no shredding in those pieces. The guitar lines are quick, though.
Cosmic Messenger: A big sigh to you, because I've already acknowledged that I don't "want" to hear them per say, but rather I would like to know if anyone has seen him perform them.
Avantgardehead's statement is exactly what I was trying, and failing, to say: "I think many people knew he had it in him, but it's always nice to see these things."
Anyways, if someone still understand what I mean by shredding, here's an example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pYauTCAbvh8
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Wow.
So you think that shredding = good guitar playing? Real guitar playing comes from the soul, it has feeling, and even if you did play a soulful solo at shredding speed, you couldn't distinguish it anyway, so what's the point? All shredding is is practising scales, arpeggios and melodic lines over and over again with a metronome: what musical skill does that involve? None at all if you ask me, it's not entertaining, it's self-indulgent. Fripp knows this, so he doesn't do it.
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This post is so contradictory amd misinformed it makes me laugh to be honest.
Saying shredding is mindless and boring yet defending someone who clearly has been known to play shred solo is highly hypocritical.
"Real guitar playing comes from the soul, it has feeling, and even if you did play a soulful solo at shredding speed, you couldn't distinguish it anyway, so what's the point? All shredding is is practising scales, arpeggios and melodic lines over and over again with a metronome:what musical skill does that involve? None at all if you ask me, it's not entertaining, it's self-indulgent. Fripp knows this, so he doesn't do it."
That didn't make a lot of sense to be totally honest. Your definition of shredding is not even close to the ball park of the correct definition. What you described is running through technical exercises. Shredding means to play in a virtuosic manner on guitar, and has nothing to do with whether it's musical to you or not.
"you couldn't distinguish it anyway" a typical example of someone who has minimal or zero musical ear training. I happen to find many shred solos to be widely varied and can hear the differences between what techniques are employed in the solo, and why certain phrases are played to give different emotions.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6jBJUUogVyU - http://youtube.com/watch?v=6jBJUUogVyU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Jit_KXxhX4 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Jit_KXxhX4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G3gHtPLXQOI - http://youtube.com/watch?v=G3gHtPLXQOI
Here are 3 different shred solos (well one is also mainly a song), and I challenge anyone to tell me these 3 solos A: Played using a variety of different techniques B Not even in the same modes and key signatures and styles can sound 'indistinguishable'. Ask MikeEnRegalia, or some of the other shred guitarist on this forum, and they will agree whole heartedly shred is a valid form of musical expression.
If the world revolved around one person that could just univerally say 'all shred is the same etc, can't tell it apart etc no emotion etc', maybe we would have to accept it, but in future don't make it sound like people have this universal idea we must all believe, because I think I should be able to feel free to understand and believe in the emotive power of shred guitar.
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And is that why shredders will be as well remembered in the future as lets say some melodic genii like Bach, Sibeilius, collectively Genesis and maybe even Peter Hamill w/ VDGG? Face it dude, the only people that appreciate shredding are guitarists, and that is because and only because they know it is astoundingly hard.
I have listened to your links, and quite frankly they do not portray any emotion for me, which is very typical of shredding. Why play 20 notes/second and impress people with how fast you can move your wrist and fingers, when you can play one note a second and induce any powerful emotion on people? This is what infuriates me about shredding guitarists: they absolutely love to show off their moves, but they are killing the real purpose of music, and that is to entertain people emotionally. Doesn't that anger you in any sort of way? I'd love to see someone break down in tears of joy at a shredding solo, because they sure as hell have done that with most other musical formats.
And before you even think about saying I contradicted myself with the comment "only because they know it is astoundingly hard" against the above "what musical skill does that involve? None at all if you ask me", take note of what I said: i said that shredding recquires no musical skill, and i still stand by that. however, it involves skill in other areas; that is to get it up to shredding speed. Perhaps composing a slowed down version of the shred needs as much musical skill as you proclaim, with cadential, harmonic and modal uses, but look at it this way: if any of Beethoven's Adagios were played at quadruple the tempo they are normally, do you honestly think that they would get the same reaction? I highly doubt it, because the human brain can only comprehend emotion at a certain speed, so don't give me that crap about me having an undeveloped musical ear, because if you can distinguish as much as a little emotion from shredding, then i will consider either one of two things 1. you have never actually experienced real musical vehemence or 2. you are superhuman.
I personally doubt the latter.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 13:32
First off, in response to your first statement, i think that most metal shredders are already more popular and famous and will be better remembered than sibeilius or genesis or peter hamill. prog is still a very very small movement, especially when compared to metal. im not saying this is good or bad, but the popularity level of these two groups is non-comparable. and also. You do NOT have to be a guitarist to enjoy shred solos. . . look at me! i like shred i think it adds somehting, particularly to fierce, explosive music. I like hearing massive arpegios snake througha song soaring up and down and through it. its fun! you cant solo slow in an extremely fast song, it would kill the intesnsity which is what those solo's are all about. Can you get intense with non-shredding solos? yes. and they are some of the best written (gilmour anyone?) but come on, shredding brings something to the table regardless of how vehement you are against it. and please dont get all aloof with your "Real music" Ever listened to the Third movement of Moonlight Sonota? thats shredding on piano.
"because the human brain can only comprehend emotion at a certain speed,
so don't give me that crap about me having an undeveloped musical ear"
The human brain can only distinguish notes at 1/20'th of a second. anything faster just sounds like a sustained note or a smear. no body that i am aware of can play faster than this.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 14:32
Bargh, I used to love shredding. Now I don't really care for it at all.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 14:58
keiser willhelm wrote:
First off, in response to your first statement, i think that most metal shredders are already more popular and famous and will be better remembered than sibeilius or genesis or peter hamill. prog is still a very very small movement, especially when compared to metal. im not saying this is good or bad, but the popularity level of these two groups is non-comparable. and also. You do NOT have to be a guitarist to enjoy shred solos. . . look at me! i like shred i think it adds somehting, particularly to fierce, explosive music. I like hearing massive arpegios snake througha song soaring up and down and through it. its fun! you cant solo slow in an extremely fast song, it would kill the intesnsity which is what those solo's are all about. Can you get intense with non-shredding solos? yes. and they are some of the best written (gilmour anyone?) but come on, shredding brings something to the table regardless of how vehement you are against it. and please dont get all aloof with your "Real music" Ever listened to the Third movement of Moonlight Sonota? thats shredding on piano.
"because the human brain can only comprehend emotion at a certain speed,
so don't give me that crap about me having an undeveloped musical ear"
The human brain can only distinguish notes at 1/20'th of a second. anything faster just sounds like a sustained note or a smear. no body that i am aware of can play faster than this.
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I can play the third movement from Moonlight Sonata, and indeed it is shredding on piano if you look at it that way. However, compare it with the rest of the piece: the fast movement adds a climax. It might just be because i've heard too much dragonforce in my time, but songs with shredding just seem to be one big climax, Dream Theatre may be an exception to this rule. Still, the point i'm trying to make is that shredding is not necessary in any circumstance, there is nothing you can't do with a really melodic solo that you can do with a shred, so why shred? It has always seemed pointless to me, just another method for guitarists to feed their absolutely ravenous egos instead of MAKING MUSIC.
1/20th of a second is quite simply demisemiquaver pentuplets at a tempo of 120 beats per minute. A few pianists i know of can play hemidemisemiquavers at that speed, and it doesn't exactly sound like a hum, more like a very short chord, however if you listen carefuilly you can still hear each individual note. Whether those notes mean anything or not is a different story...
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Posted By: Unsouled
Date Posted: May 05 2008 at 17:55
Sweep picking may also result in similar sounds. To be honest, sweeps sound like bubbles to me (extremely satisfying bubbles at that). I can't think of a better word to describe them.
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